I wish I could understand

[Invictus01]

"I'm sorry I hurt you nothing I can say will make you feel better but you are a great guy with a lot to offer and you will meet a girl who loves you and makes you very happy

We just were not meant to be and deep down you know that "

That is such a pile of steamy feces. How noble of her, "you will make a girl who loves you and makes you very happy" My eyes are bleeding reading this BS... .

[Blimblam]

Its so  frustrating why is it so damm hard to let go !

I think I know the answer its the solution that's the problem .

Because it's not even her your letting go of she's already gone.  It's this idea of her you have attached a part of you to and your own internal struggle. Her image becomes an object you can displace and interact with parts of yourself that are difficult to interact with otherwise. You are dealing with yourself here.

[dobie]

Its so  frustrating why is it so damm hard to let go !

I think I know the answer its the solution that's the problem .

Because it's not even her your letting go of she's already gone.  It's this idea of her you have attached a part of you to and your own internal struggle. Her image becomes an object you can displace and interact with parts of yourself that are difficult to interact with otherwise. You are dealing with yourself here.

That's what I'm learning my T said to try and understand what she meant to me and to realise I put a part of me in her that she trashed .

[dobie]

"I'm sorry I hurt you nothing I can say will make you feel better but you are a great guy with a lot to offer and you will meet a girl who loves you and makes you very happy

We just were not meant to be and deep down you know that "

That is such a pile of steamy feces. How noble of her, "you will make a girl who loves you and makes you very happy" My eyes are bleeding reading this BS... .

Yes its typical martyr poo and minimisation oo its OK he will just meet another girl so I don't have to feel bad .

Its the only "apology" I got apart from two texts

"Sorry I hurt you"

"Sorry I upset you "

[dobie]

It is very hard.  But everyone is here to help support you in that goal.

What can you do for YOU this weekend?

Thanks Cosmo


Well I ordered some books blimblam suggested , tommorow I see family and have a date .

[cosmonaut]

Thanks Cosmo

Well I ordered some books blimblam suggested , tommorow I see family and have a date .

That's great, dobie.  Masterson, as blimblam suggested, is great reading.  Another book that helped me was The Journey from Abandonment to Healing by Susan Anderson.  Keep working on you.  You're a great and loving guy, and you deserve it!  Do you feel like you are ready to date yet?

"I'm sorry I hurt you nothing I can say will make you feel better but you are a great guy with a lot to offer and you will meet a girl who loves you and makes you very happy

We just were not meant to be and deep down you know that "

That is such a pile of steamy feces. How noble of her, "you will make a girl who loves you and makes you very happy" My eyes are bleeding reading this BS... .

Yes its typical martyr poo and minimisation oo its OK he will just meet another girl so I don't have to feel bad .

Its the only "apology" I got apart from two texts

"Sorry I hurt you"

"Sorry I upset you "

It's also her invalidating herself.  She feels so worthless that she feels replaceable by anyone.  Like so much of the disorder, her shame and underdeveloped self are sabotaging herself.  And causing everyone serious pain.  It's also a way for her to try and alleviate some of that shame, by convincing herself that you will be alright.   You're right that it's all about her, and it isn't really concerning you at all.  Her pain is so overwhelming that she can't see far beyond it.

[dobie]

Cosmo : thanks bro I know your right I know she does not even really know why she left her answer was "bickering " and resentment over  "money" the last showing how unhealthy she is .

People with BPD know what they are doing. As I see it, they have something similar to "extreme tendencies" to act in certain ways. Of course it's a lot more complicated than that though. Through therapy those tendencies are addressed and diminish over years to those that actually care enough about themselves and others to seek out help. Some members here were fortunate enough not to deal with a BPD ex who made very calculated decisions/punishments.

Even if yours wasn't a BPD relationship, she could now be just saying BS excuses to you as to not hurt your feelings. That's why it seems to you that she is so mixed up.

Sorry your hurting.

No contact leads to peace.

Her reasons were .

1.) Bickering

2.) Resentment over money she earned and paid more

3.) She used to hang on my every word but she has now lost respect for me (she denied she lost respect when she saw my bro)

4.) She had grown up clearly not

5.) She wanted to work abroad and my dad being I'll was holding her back bs

6.) She felt she was carrying me projection

She was still raging about money when she saw my bro , he said she could not really give any answers she doesn't really know .

My take and my family and those who knew her is she was always unhappy about something once she got what she thought would make her happy and she still wasent she started to blame me / us

She never loved me in a mature way it was the crush of an infatuated teen age girl

[Blimblam]

I have two issues with masterson, 1 is that his theories are often taken out of context.  His ideas of the real and false are lifted directly from Lacan so without understanding Lacan when one reads masterson they typically fail to relate the text to how it pertains to the identity of the reader.   Also to understand Lacan one has to have some knowledge of Saussure and his theories on the underlying structure of language.  Perhaps the book simulacra and simulation will help to clarify a lot of those concepts.  

My second issue is that if you are trying i understand BPD specifically their have been advances made on how BPD develops and that it has a genetic component and that isn't mentioned by masterson.

Mainly that masterson needs to be understood within the context of postmodern thought to really understood in my opinion.

[dobie]

Thanks Cosmo

Well I ordered some books blimblam suggested , tommorow I see family and have a date .

That's great, dobie.  Masterson, as blimblam suggested, is great reading.  Another book that helped me was The Journey from Abandonment to Healing by Susan Anderson.  Keep working on you.  You're a great and loving guy, and you deserve it!  :)o you feel like you are ready to date yet?

"I'm sorry I hurt you nothing I can say will make you feel better but you are a great guy with a lot to offer and you will meet a girl who loves you and makes you very happy

We just were not meant to be and deep down you know that "

That is such a pile of steamy feces. How noble of her, "you will make a girl who loves you and makes you very happy" My eyes are bleeding reading this BS... .

Yes its typical martyr poo and minimisation oo its OK he will just meet another girl so I don't have to feel bad .

Its the only "apology" I got apart from two texts

"Sorry I hurt you"

"Sorry I upset you "

It's also her invalidating herself.  She feels so worthless that she feels replaceable by anyone.  Like so much of the disorder, her shame and underdeveloped self are sabotaging herself.  And causing everyone serious pain.  It's also a way for her to try and alleviate some of that shame, by convincing herself that you will be alright.   You're right that it's all about her, and it isn't really concerning you at all.  Her pain is so overwhelming that she can't see far beyond it.

Thanks Cosmo likewise  

Yes I have the Susan Anderson book its great !

Yes she has little self worth so sad really she used to say she felt she was boring and there was nothing to her . she was is coming up to 30 and that scared her as well she feels empty and like she has not lived . she said all her ideas and likes were mine and she wants to find hers  her dad is an emotionally abusive alcoholic her mother distant and selfish her parents are both immature

We met when she was young 22-29 and she spent most of that time working and studying I admit I became boring over the last few years but I was exhausted with her , my dad , work the dog and all my other responsibilities .

She wants to stop feeling unhappy and empty but instead of doing all those things with me she thinks she can do it better with someone else

She told my bro we both got boring together , she is just restless IMO searching for something out there to fill what's missing inside

She wanted me to be OK about all this she can't stand being disliked or thought of as a bad person she is highly sensitive to criticism and desperately wants lots of friends and to be popular but she lack s the social skills people find her difficult and trying . her happiest time was at a concert in the summer with a friend so that's what she is chasing its childish although she told me almost screamed "there were times you made me INTENSLY happy"

She made a new best friend and told me she does not need me as a best friend now she admmited to my bro I was always there for her and her bf till I was replaced .

Funny before we broke up she was feeling ashamed because of having had old bfs she implied a few times I think she wished she had never had any or just me

At the same time she was talking a few times throughout the year how exciting it would be to have a one night stand .

Yes shame is part of her psychology .

She is deff not a sociopath or narc

[dagwoodbowser]

I've lost pretty much everything I cared about as well as my trust most days I just want to sleep forever

dobie man, from the bottom of my heart and soul I feel for you man. I've been where you... .not just once but 3 or 4 times? Today is day 37 N/C, almost 70 seen last seen. In the past for whatever reason I buckled and the cork on my bottle popped off and I was a raging texting/email manic. I couldn't stop or... .she would come on real strong with the emails/texts. I have never quite made it past 90 days N/C and each break up left me more damaged and devastated than the priors. I posted your comment so you can evaluate how deeply this is affecting you.

You see, this last break up on Valentines Day totally un-hinged me and I actually had a suicide attempt. Story, topic for another time, but given I survived I now see how Toxic and Dangerous this relationship is for me and to me. I've always been a brilliant fairly confident man and through college and later dated many women, I broke up or they did and yeah, it was difficult. Even went through a divorce and it simply wasn't anything like this! So I understand. I'm ok now and consider myself lucky and blessed to be here, but the effects of what I did greatly impacted the way my friends, family and my son view me. They dont understand. My life is forever changed and I can honestly say I want to Live! Anyway, no particular point of you or advice here. Just wanted to point out a few things.

[dobie]

I've lost pretty much everything I cared about as well as my trust most days I just want to sleep forever

dobie man, from the bottom of my heart and soul I feel for you man. I've been where you... .not just once but 3 or 4 times? Today is day 37 N/C, almost 70 seen last seen. In the past for whatever reason I buckled and the cork on my bottle popped off and I was a raging texting/email manic. I couldn't stop or... .she would come on real strong with the emails/texts. I have never quite made it past 90 days N/C and each break up left me more damaged and devastated than the priors. I posted your comment so you can evaluate how deeply this is affecting you.

You see, this last break up on Valentines Day totally un-hinged me and I actually had a suicide attempt. Story, topic for another time, but given I survived I now see how Toxic and Dangerous this relationship is for me and to me. I've always been a brilliant fairly confident man and through college and later dated many women, I broke up or they did and yeah, it was difficult. Even went through a divorce and it simply wasn't anything like this! So I understand. I'm ok now and consider myself lucky and blessed to be here, but the effects of what I did greatly impacted the way my friends, family and my son view me. They dont understand. My life is forever changed and I can honestly say I want to Live! Anyway, no particular point of you or advice here. Just wanted to point out a few things.

Hey dagwood so glad your still with us bro thanks for sharing  

I went months with nc I got one xmass text everything else was just about business I think that's why I flipped she discussed the BU with me on the phone twice once spewing resentment and anger because we had already sorted everything out it was two weeks out

I think that's the killer in the past with women who left me they were approachable to talk to stay friends , to listen or just to reach out and say they missed me or was I OK some even wrote lovely letters to highlight how much I meant or the good times . but this well everyday together for nearly seven years and she never once said thank you for the good times , I loved you very much I'm so sad about all this I hope we can stay friends I'm there if u need me it was all me, me , me or just we are over goodbye I can't or don't or won't deal with it and I won't own hardly anything and the resentment and etc etc its really messed up its not normal

Its just all about her and her needs like Cosmo says she can't deal with her feelings emotions I really think that's true

Her saying she had not loved me for a year but then at times exhibiting strong pulling behaviours her not being able to see me in case she came back for a few more years ( no sense of self ) why would anyone stay in a r/s they don't want to be in . her cutting herself after a row and begging me to let her go .

Its like I was her jailer not her partner .

I felt for so long I was the dumping ground for all her worries , fears , pain etc

[dagwoodbowser]

I think that's the killer in the past with women who left me they were approachable to talk to stay friends , to listen or just to reach out and say they missed me or was I OK some even wrote lovely letters to highlight how much I meant or the good times . but this well everyday together for nearly seven years and she never once said thank you for the good times , I loved you very much I'm so sad about all this I hope we can stay friends I'm there if u need me it was all me, me , me or just we are over goodbye I can't or don't or won't deal with it and I won't own hardly anything and the resentment and etc etc its really messed up its not normal

Yep. It will Never be Normal. You will likely never get true closure, reciprocation of  genuine affection when it's really needed. The pat on the back or the thank you for all you've done for me or how very special and great, positive impact in my life? Nah... .it's just Not gonna happen. You said it... .it's not normal. You, me and many of us here keep forgetting a BPD individual can not, will not be able to see or view things as we do. That's what keeps me sane. It wasn't me, it wasn't me.

[dobie]

I think that's the killer in the past with women who left me they were approachable to talk to stay friends , to listen or just to reach out and say they missed me or was I OK some even wrote lovely letters to highlight how much I meant or the good times . but this well everyday together for nearly seven years and she never once said thank you for the good times , I loved you very much I'm so sad about all this I hope we can stay friends I'm there if u need me it was all me, me , me or just we are over goodbye I can't or don't or won't deal with it and I won't own hardly anything and the resentment and etc etc its really messed up its not normal

Yep. It will Never be Normal. You will likely never get true closure, reciprocation of  genuine affection when it's really needed. The pat on the back or the thank you for all you've done for me or how very special and great, positive impact in my life? Nah... .it's just Not gonna happen. You said it... .it's not normal. You, me and many of us here keep forgetting a BPD individual can not, will not be able to see or view things as we do. That's what keeps me sane. It wasn't me, it wasn't me.

Thanks dagwood you guys sharing the similar experiences just proves its not us or normal .

I'm lucky I guess we never had kids or a house she would have had me sleeping on a friends couch paying child support and restricting access to my children no doubt

[cosmonaut]

I have two issues with masterson, 1 is that his theories are often taken out of context.  His ideas of the real and false are lifted directly from Lacan so without understanding Lacan when one reads masterson they typically fail to relate the text to how it pertains to the identity of the reader.   Also to understand Lacan one has to have some knowledge of Saussure and his theories on the underlying structure of language.  Perhaps the book simulacra and simulation will help to clarify a lot of those concepts.  

My second issue is that if you are trying i understand BPD specifically their have been advances made on how BPD develops and that it has a genetic component and that isn't mentioned by masterson.

Mainly that masterson needs to be understood within the context of postmodern thought to really understood in my opinion.

Wow.  You know far more about this than I do, Blimblam.  Masterson is dense reading, no doubt about it, and honestly I don't have the background in psychology to fully understand it.  It was still an enlightening read and helped me to better understand PDs, even as abstract as some of the concepts of object relations theory are.   Anyway, thanks for sharing.  You seem to know alot about all of this.   

[Blimblam]

Doobie

She couldn't do those things because she had split you black.  The concept of splitting is one I think needs to be investigated thoroughly to heal from what you are going through.  In jungian psychology the shadow and shadow projection explain splitting.  In object relations it's the concept of projective identification.   On the melanie klein society website they have a good audio recording with a bunch of kleinien analysts discussing projective identification that's a good place to start.  The Wikipedia article is good also.  

On YouTube their are excepts of jungs book being read discussing the shadow, shadow projection, the anima, anima projection, the feminin archetype.  

Also there is the schema modes.   I think transactional analysis is a decent primer to schema therapy texts.  

[dobie]

Doobie

She couldn't do those things because she had split you black.  The concept of splitting is one I think needs to be investigated thoroughly to heal from what you are going through.  In jungian psychology the shadow and shadow projection explain splitting.  In object relations it's the concept of projective identification.   On the melanie klein society website they have a good audio recording with a bunch of kleinien analysts discussing projective identification that's a good place to start.  The Wikipedia article is good also.  

On YouTube their are excepts of jungs book being read discussing the shadow, shadow projection, the anima, anima projection, the feminin archetype.  

Also there is the schema modes.   I think transactional analysis is a decent primer to schema therapy texts.  

Thanks blimblam will check out I love Jung's theories I finished his bio a few weeks back

I'm not sure she did split me completely black though? she never said she hated me or really devalued me I.e your fat ugly useless etc

It was I've grown up

I don't respect you

Its not fair to say but we are two different people just not right for each other blah blah

I'm sick of carrying you

I'm exhausted from you

I felt relief driving away on your bday

I've not been happy for the whole six years when I said she is never happy

I want more out of life

I want romance

I don't need you to cook my dinner or look after me

How can I buy a house with you , you don't like your job and might leave me yo pay the mortgage urghhhhh

She told me in the first week when she was undecided that I was handsome , amazing , funny etc she just needed time yo think when I dumped her on email after she trashed my bday that's when she turned really feral and it got worse and the above was said she was actually more human before that and was worried about me still as selfish as ever but with a little more guilt and compassion

She told me when I ended it via email that she cried all night just wanted time to think was not saying it was over  but now I could met someone better looking than her as I jokingly told her once

When she met my bro she admitted the r/s had not been all bad thanks

[Blimblam]

how she feels about you can change depending on how she feels in the moment.  What I realized is my ex was often happy with me but she had her doubts.  Her fears.  She always had the idea of somone else to project that part of herself into that was not me.  This she was able to idealize me.   Eventually she began to use the idea of me to project those painful emotions into and she began to slowly devalue me buy I also contained the positive image herself also.  That was the problem I contained both images of herself the positive and negative this she had no where to hide!  So while she complained about me to friends maybe another day after me and her had a good day she would be defending me against "them." Them being the bad ideas of me that she put into the minds of her friends.  On another level this allowed her to displace these two opposing sides of her internal conflict into two external parties freeing her of responsibility.  This same dynamic can be observed often on the leaving board. 

[dobie]

how she feels about you can change depending on how she feels in the moment.  What I realized is my ex was often happy with me but she had her doubts.  Her fears.  She always had the idea of somone else to project that part of herself into that was not me.  This she was able to idealize me.   Eventually she began to use the idea of me to project those painful emotions into and she began to slowly devalue me buy I also contained the positive image herself also.  That was the problem I contained both images of herself the positive and negative this she had no where to hide!  So while she complained about me to friends maybe another day after me and her had a good day she would be defending me against "them." Them being the bad ideas of me that she put into the minds of her friends.  On another level this allowed her to displace these two opposing sides of her internal conflict into two external parties freeing her of responsibility.  This same dynamic can be observed often on the leaving board.  

Fascinating thank you , I'm not sure who she used to project the bad parts of her self into perhaps x friends who had let her down family etc my x was the same happy but with doubts that got worse as time wore on and were reinforced by her sick father and jealous friend

Does my above description of her words sound like splitting blimblam?

[Blimblam]

how she feels about you can change depending on how she feels in the moment.  What I realized is my ex was often happy with me but she had her doubts.  Her fears.  She always had the idea of somone else to project that part of herself into that was not me.  This she was able to idealize me.   Eventually she began to use the idea of me to project those painful emotions into and she began to slowly devalue me buy I also contained the positive image herself also.  That was the problem I contained both images of herself the positive and negative this she had no where to hide!  So while she complained about me to friends maybe another day after me and her had a good day she would be defending me against "them." Them being the bad ideas of me that she put into the minds of her friends.  On another level this allowed her to displace these two opposing sides of her internal conflict into two external parties freeing her of responsibility.  This same dynamic can be observed often on the leaving board.  

Fascinating thank you , I'm not sure who she used to project the bad parts of her self into perhaps x friends who had let her down family etc my x was the same happy but with doubts that got worse as time wore on and were reinforced by her sick father and jealous friend

Does my above description of her words sound like splitting blimblam?

What I describe fits the karpman drama triangle model. 

So you can understand it but it's painful and will take time and energy.  I was just sharing with you a few things that helped me personally.   

The things that slowed me down were junk psychology and their is a LOT of it out there , entire movements based around it! It tends to be characterized by shadow projection. 

[2010]

Dobie, I'm sorry you are in such pain. Your girlfriend may have been a balm for you during your stress of caring for your Father and now that she is gone you are struggling. I hear you.  

One of the things that these failed relationships bring to the surface- is that *after they end,* they return us to our same. What existed before is still there. Your Father is still ill, and many of the stressors you had are still there. They were temporarily softened with the idea that you were in love and life was meaningful, but now that she is gone the sameness remains. This is what you need to talk about. The return to same.

People come and go from us often, and some do not return. We can wait forever for a person to return, never knowing if they will and it's the wait that appears like self-neglect. Sometimes the waiting is the worst part as it keeps us focused on expectations rather than reality.  Expectations are resentments waiting to happen. The reality is we are sacrificing allot just to sit and wait.

Find someone to talk to about your Father. Take the money you would spend on dating (not a good idea right now) and schedule a therapy session. Find a person that you can trust. Pour your heart out. Tell them about your depression. For what it's worth, depression is linked to the past. That has allot to do with your Pops and possibly your feelings about being entrusted with his care. Find someone to hear you out. It's important.

Keep looking ahead to happier days.

Buying a book is a good start, but don't get sidetracked by researching authors with conflicting theories.

To understand the theories of personality (and especially the differences in theory) you have to understand the schools of thought. But it's not necessary to learn in order to heal because in order to heal you have to have a voice. Reading about theory is purely meant to facilitate the awakening of your own voice and the intellectualization of why you do certain things and how you combine with other people to create friction or fantasy or fruitfulness. That comes out of questioning the self.

What is needed is *to become understood by another* but also to understand yourself. For the most part, these theories aren't necessary for you to get your needs met emotionally by another person. That's what is important here- especially when you are feeling so down and abandoned. You need to learn how to get your needs met <<by yourself.>>

You will survive. It takes time. The best way to process is with a trusted ear who can question you. Hopefully you can find one and stick with it for a few sessions until you feel heard and validated.

Best of luck to you.   2010

I have two issues with masterson, 1 is that his theories are often taken out of context.  His ideas of the real and false are lifted directly from Lacan so without understanding Lacan when one reads masterson they typically fail to relate the text to how it pertains to the identity of the reader.

P.S. Blimblam. Masterson didn't "lift" anything from Lacan. The theory of the True Self is from D.W. Winnicott.

[Blimblam]

Yeah it's not the reading of those ideas that do the work for you it's the self reflection i seemed to find those authors mainly after examining myself in the light of some new concept that led to other ideas that seemed to be explored in depth by some new author.  It was really the self reflection though. 

2010 you were probably the original ideas that sort of helped me to think of myself in a different way. Thanks!

But yeah 2010 when I first read masterson the ideas I read much later from Saussure and Lacan seemed to only be a more in depth explanation of my personal interpretation of mastersons concepts within the text.  It could just be from watching the matrix when I was a kid because I didn't really know anything about structuralism or post structuralism directly when I read masterson except when I began describing my interpretation of the false self to my friend he recomended I read foucault.

[cosmonaut]

2010, you have some really, really nice posts.  I'm glad that you are still posting and I hope you'll continue.  I can very much relate to what you are saying about returning to the same.  Good stuff.

[Turkish]

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