Back after a long time... trying to reconcile after 3 years of NC

[educator]

Hey all,

I'm back here after a long time.  Long story short, I have a uBPD MIL.  DH and I went NC with her over 3 years ago when she walked out on our DD4 and DD9's lives a second time.  Recently, DH and I have had marital issues and he reached out to his mom.  We've decided to fix our marriage and he is adamant that he wants our DD's to see his mom and there is nothing I can do about that. 

Basically, what DH and I both learned from this (he went to see a divorce lawyer) is that in a divorce, MIL could insert herself and get grandparent's rights.  DH could probably get alimony from me (he's a SAHD) and we would most likely have joint custody of our DD's.  Things got really bad this week and DH took our DD's out of school on Thursday to see MIL.  DD9 now refuses to see MIL again because MIL discussed the adult issues with her and attempted to get DD9 on her side.  DD9 said she won't see MIL anymore and DH respects this.  DD4 however, is really wanting to see MIL and DH took her there again yesterday and they had a good time.

There is another board I post on and many of the posters there are chastising me for allowing my DD's to see their grandmother. The thing is, DH and I are both parents of my DD's.  If he truly wants her to see them, then I can't really stop that.  Sure, I could threaten divorce, we could divorce but that's not going to stop MIL from seeing them.  I feel like I need advice for how to move forward with tools to deal with MIL.

My MIL is very immature.  Part of the reason DD9 wants nothing to do with her is also because of this.  She sings poopy songs, mooned DD4 yesterday and was teaching DD4 to be sassy yesterday.  When DH and I in the past have asked her not to do certain things, she gets easily offended and eventually just says she's stepping out.  My MIL tries to get involved in my marriage.  When all this was going on, MIL convinced DH to take all of our savings out and keep it at her house.  He did for two days.  After he saw the lawyer and decided to stay with me, he put the money back into savings.  He had good reason to see a lawyer.  Last Monday I told him because he was talking to his mom again that I was done with him, I was going to let him go and see a lawyer.  I then changed my mind but because this is the second time I've threatened divorce, he took it seriously.  He's a SAHD, has no career and thought he'd be left out in the cold.  Yesterday when he was over there, she was asking him about our tax return, what I did with the money, etc.  He eventually just shut her up by playing the instrument he brought over and ignoring her.

The story is so much longer than this.  I could write 30 pages on what happened over the 3 years of supposed NC, but what I need here is advice.  How do we deal with MIL?  How do I protect my DD's?  Our current mutual agreement is that DD9 will not see MIL as DH and I both won't make her.  DH will bring DD4 over 1-2 times a month and supervise, though I know eventually MIL will want more.  What do we do when she asks for sleepovers?  How do we set boundaries with her.

Also... .both DH and I are in therapy now and will start marriage therapy with our pastor tonight and will seek a marriage therapist after seeing him tonight. 

Thanks in advance!

[Suzn]

Welcome back educator.

I'm sorry you're struggling with your MIL and your H.   I can see your frustration in wanting to keep your children safe.   

Yesterday when he was over there, she was asking him about our tax return, what I did with the money, etc.  He eventually just shut her up by playing the instrument he brought over and ignoring her.

This is good to see, that he didn't get caught up in her involving herself in your financial affairs. Working to put boundaries in place when she attempts to be too involved will be key.

DH will bring DD4 over 1-2 times a month and supervise, though I know eventually MIL will want more.  What do we do when she asks for sleepovers?  How do we set boundaries with her.

Communication tools (SET, PUVAS, DEARMAN)

This link will be helpful, specifically the DEARMAN technique. This technique takes some practice. You are welcome to practice here any time. Do you have any contact with your MIL?

It's good to hear you and your H will be working with a T. The Lessons for members who are staying in their relationships would also be really helpful educator. These skills work really well for any r/s, not just a pwBPD.  

[Sasha026]

educator,

I, too, haven't been on for a long time. Since my mother's death, I've just been dealing with the fall out of BPD. Today, I have the flu. So, since my son is downstairs studying for his law finals, I decided to come on and see what's going on.

First of all, let me say, I'm so sorry that the witch is coming in between you and your husband. My mother did exactly the same thing. She also tried to drive a wedge in between my son and me, as well. Thank God, it didn't work. Your MIL sounds exactly like my mother. Especially the "baby talk" garbage. For some strange reason, these women resort to childish behavior from time to time. I know it drove us absolutely nuts! There were so many days I just wanted to chuck a slipper at her head and yell, "GROW UP"!

About the Grandparent's rights garbage. My mother said she was going to sue me to get grandparent's rights, too. It's a lot of garbage. Remember I said that I have a son downstairs studying for his law exams, well, when he took family law, last semester, he told me that unless it's a state law that is strictly adhered to, there is no way a judge would let a woman with a mental disorder have access to your children. Especially if she is not responsible. There are just so many variables that go into a judge's decision but I don't think that anyone outside the immediate family has any rights to the children. I guess this would only come into question if she were the only living relative. Right now they have their parents. Even then, she would need court approval and that isn't something that is easily given. Especially if she shows her colors in court.

Please consult with an attorney yourself about this. The law is pretty cut and dry about these things, going mainly to the financial settlement. Agree to nothing until you seek out legal advise. Do not listen to your husband on this. I think you said that he's a stay at home dad (SAHD)? Well, there have been many stay at home moms who were forced into the job market during a divorce, I don't think the court will blink when they tell him he has to find a way to contribute to his children's welfare. The courts can be a bit impersonal focusing mainly on division of property and the protection of the children.

On dealing with your mother - how can anyone cope with insanity? How do we keep our family stable when we have to deal with constant outside turmoil? This is something that you and your husband have to sit down and discuss. She cannot be an integral part of your children's lives. She will prey on them until she drives them crazy. As you know, BPDs have no emotional lability. Their moods change from hour to hour forcing you to react. If something they are doing doesn't get the required reaction, they switch. My mother used to go from relatively normal mother to intensely angry mother, to baby talk, to evil mother to crazy mother. I needed a scorecard just to sit and have diner with her. I used to think to myself, "Pick a mother - any mother!"

Just to push you ahead a few years and give you the adult child version. My son hates my mother and what she did to me, him and my marriage. Absolutely hates her. Borderlines have a evil sense about the vulnerability of their prey. After my husband died my mother's evil eye focused on my son because, you see, he didn't have his dad around to protect him. She said some very cruel things to him just weeks after he lost his dad. He went to her crying for a shoulder to lean on (and he was in his 20's) and she just got that evil look in her eye and went after him. Thank God, I came in just in time. I told her that she would never see him again and she never did. I kept my promise. If my mother had her way, she would have him leave college to get a janitorial job for minimum wage. Instead, we stuck to our plan and he will be an accomplished attorney making a secure living next year. I think my way was a little better, eh?

So, my advise is to keep your children as far away from your MIL as possible for your children's sake. She knows that you and your husband are on shaky ground and she will do her best to blow things sky high... . just for the fun of it. I remember all of your posts about her so long ago and I feel bad for you. I think that your husband ran to his mother with his marital problems for comfort. You can't blame him for that, because us children of Borderlines are brainwashed to do just that. They like to keep their chicks tucked firmly under their wing with soothing statements. That is until you are gone, then she'll go after him. That's just what they do.

You may need to seek professional advise about this matter. Either from a psychologist or an attorney. I'm sure there is someone somewhere who can help you to protect yourself and your children. These borderlines ruin lives. They're what my therapist calls, "crazy making". It's serious.

I used the word "evil" in here a few times and I did that because I just don't have another word for what I witnessed. Again, educator, take care. You sound like you are at the end of your rope. Another thing, no one actually knows what you are going through right now. I know because I've been there and it's hell. You take things a day at a time. Get your ducks in a row. Plan things out. Be as stubborn as you can be for your children's sake. Don't let anyone influence you and you will land on your feet. I'll keep you in my prayers.

Hugs,

Sasha

[educator]

Thank you Suzn... .that was exactly what I was looking for!

Sasha026... .thank you for your kind words.  I'll write more back later.  I have a meeting now.  I do feel better after reading what you wrote and realize I need to start documenting everything.  Oddly enough... .I feel as though I have to protect my DH and DD's at this point.  Even though DH did horrible things to me the last few days, it was almost like he was drugged.  He had a vacant look in his eyes and at one point I thought maybe she gave him medication.  I still wonder about that. 

[educator]

I think that your husband ran to his mother with his marital problems for comfort. You can't blame him for that, because us children of Borderlines are brainwashed to do just that. They like to keep their chicks tucked firmly under their wing with soothing statements.

  Sasha

Yes... .this is exactly why I am not that mad at him.  The odd thing is, he has a decent r/s with his biodad and had he gone to him, things would have been different.  I feel so betrayed on so many levels.  I found out yesterday that she even has my tax returns.  She took them for the lawyer and went through all of my personal things.  I understand the tax returns are ours, but other documentation I had collected was mine and DH let her take all of that. 

You may need to seek professional advise about this matter. Either from a psychologist or an attorney. I'm sure there is someone somewhere who can help you to protect yourself and your children. These borderlines ruin lives. They're what my therapist calls, "crazy making". It's serious.

I am starting T tomorrow so I hope that will help.  It's so frustrating.  DH and I have our own problems separate from his mom that we need to work on and now I feel like those will get pushed back again while we focus on his mother.  I hope my T can help me to process this. 

[Sasha026]

educator,

Your husband gave his mother your joint tax returns? The new ones? 2014? Does she still have them? What was he thinking? Your family finances are absolutely none of her business! Again, more of his training. This tells me that he has boundary problems - a symptom/flea. Funny, I never inherited that problem from my mother. We all step on each other's toes from time to time (unintentionally), but I always found that obnoxious nosiness of hers to be one of her sicknesses. The boundary thing was always a big deal for me. I would never share my joint finances with my mother, it was way too dangerous. A fact that seemed to slip by your husband. Betrayed? Yeah, betrayed big time! That is a very bad thing to do to you. What in the world could be going through his mind? You show great control because if this was me? I would have brained him with a frying pan.

I don't want to get into your personal relationship with your husband because I don't know the nuances of your marriage but it would be one of the things I would bring up with the therapist. I would also mention to the therapist or marriage counselor that he inherited a boundary problem. He has to be made to see that her behavior is skewed. He also has to understand that your marital business is none of hers. She will use it against you. You have to know this.

I remember (about 3 years ago) you telling a story about your BIL? Something about that she didn't want anyone to have contact with him. Forgive me if I have this screwed up, but I remember the craziness that she put you through - for no reason. She just had to have her way. I wouldn't even want to be on the other side of that because they never stop. They go on and on and on. It just gets crazier and crazier.

You've been dealing with this a long time so I don't have to outline the atrocities that can come from dealing with these people. If I were you the first thing I would do is get back my financial information from her and buy a safe to keep your financial information private. He cannot be trusted not to share your personal information with his mom. What else has he shared with her? Doesn't he know that she's not mentally stable? Doesn't he see the problem? Just seeing her sing "the poopy song" and mooning your daughter... . this doesn't strike a chord with him? It did with me. I used to be very embarrassed when my mother did that. Yes, my mother also sang poopy songs (believe it or not) and mooned me. She also did other things that turned my face beet red. It's meant to drive away the offending spouse (that's you). You are supposed to be repulsed and leave. That is the desired outcome. When you don't leave, she ups the ante. Next time, it's worse.

If I were you, the first thing I would do is to get your tax returns out of her grimy paws. Any lawyer seeing that he had done this would not be happy. One of the things I just found out is that lawyers are restricted by "Professional Conduct Rules". They are actual rules that every lawyer has to follow. My son has this course now. It's not just a few vague suggestions scribbled down on a yellow legal pad, its a whole big book. If they are found guilty of professional misconduct, there goes their license. It's a big deal. You've said that he's a SAHD, which is fine, but if he doesn't contribute to the family income then shows your income to other people outside the family - that's not good. I would get a copy of my tax return and start changing everything. Credit cards, savings accounts, checking accounts. I would give him his, but I would change mine. You do know that you can do that, don't you? You can take your whole salary and put it into an account and you don't have to share a blessed thing with him - it's legal. You have to give money to live on, pay credit cards and the food for the house. The kids clothing and school supplies have to be paid for... . but, he isn't privileged to see any bank statements if you don't want him to. I just found that out because my girlfriend is going through a divorce and her husband did that to her. If a man can do that to a woman, then a woman can do that to a man. It's called "Family Law".

You say that you are seeing a therapist well... . you also need to consult a lawyer. It doesn't mean that you are getting a divorce, it means that you are protecting yourself. Don't let your MIL blind side you. You also need to document her behavior and confirm it with a professional. Spend the money for one consultation with the best Family Law attorney you can find, it will be the best money you've ever spent because you need to know your rights. This woman will try to make you feel like you're in a made for TV courtroom drama. It's not like that at all. There is no drama in divorce, it's a boring list of "this is mine, that's yours". Judge Judy isn't going to yell at you. MIL will make it seem like it will be melodramatic but the only thing that will be harsh will be the attorney bills, both his and yours... . and the main income earner has to pay for both... . and court costs.

Please let me know what happens. I hope all turns out well. I mean that.

Hugs,

Sasha

[educator]

Sasha,

He gave her the tax records for the attorney and was so out of it that I think he actually thought the attorney had the copies.  I am not sure that she has them, but I would assume that an attorney would make copies and give them back.  I'm not sure what to do at this point.  I'm still in shock.  DH is really bad with records, etc. and probably just let his mom handle all of it, like he lets me handle all of it.  As you stated, he also wasn't honest with his divorce attorney.  Didn't tell him about emptying our savings or that his mom took my personal stuff.  Or... .that he took DD's out of school to see his mom.  All those things would reflect REALLY badly in court. 

Today, MIL called DH and told him that she doesn't want to see the kids anymore and just wants a r/s with him until DH and I work things out.  She said she doesn't want to cause anymore trouble.     I am in shock.  DH seems sad about it.  It's like everything I warned him about is coming true.  DD9 was right to protect herself... .MIL is walking out again.  Not that I mind.  I think it's best for our family right now for DH to spend time working on our marriage.  But, I sort of wonder why MIL did this?  Yesterday she asked about our 2014 taxes again and DH didn't give her any information. He said that we are working on our marriage and that our tax return is our business.  He also caught her in a blatant lie.  When she called me last week, she indicated that BIL didn't want to see me because DH and I have a volatile r/s.    This was after MIL figured out that DD9 was refusing to see her again because she ran me down to DD9.  I told MIL that it was fine.  That I just wouldn't come over and that there is nothing I can do if BIL doesn't want to see me.  DH heard all of this.  He was right there.  Well, yesterday, she called him crying saying that I wouldn't allow BIL to see the kids because he won't see me.  DH was like, "Ummm... .I don't think she said that."  DD9 was also there when I said it and chimed in to DH later that evening when she heard DH mention it to me.  DD9 said, "Mommy didn't say I couldn't see BIL.  But, I'm not going to see him if grandma or grandpa are there." 

So, MIL has basically shot herself in the foot. 

I am just baffled and exhausted by all this.  I feel like I'm hanging onto a bar from my fingertips and I'm so happy to see a T today.  This family has put me through the ringer. 

[Sasha026]

educator,

Well, you know they are adroit liars. It's just part of the swirling emotional craziness that they bring to their families. I can see that your daughter can already see through her grandmother, this will only get worse. My son really didn't have the feelings at nine that he has today. He was more forgiving back then, but then, boys are a bit more disconnected. My son was interested in baseball stats. His grandmother was just a moody pain in the neck. I remember him telling me at a very young age, "you know grandma is nuts, right?" "Why do you expect her to change?" Then he said something that rocked my boat, "you also know Dad and Grandma are a lot alike". I looked at him like he told me his dad was Pol Pot.

I know what you're going through. This was my life 20 years ago and I handled it very poorly. I just wouldn't accept facts that were staring me in the face. You see, if I did acknowledge that my mother was insane and that my husband who I loved and thought loved me back was cheating on me and bringing his ladies home for me to make them dinner, I don't think I could have handled that. Not in one chunk of evidence, I couldn't. My husband had convinced me that I was imagining things and my mother was always loving and cheerful when she would answer the phone. Realities never lasted more than a few hours. One minute everyone was screaming at each other, the next we were all buddy-buddy. I didn't have firm ground to stand on because my entire life flipped upside down in the blink of an eye. My mother always taught me to forgive and forget. If she threw a fork at me and it got stuck in between my fingers, well... . Mommy lost her temper. Naturally I assumed that since I was the disappointing child, then it must have been my fault. I always assumed fault.

It's very hard to balance work, a family, finances and insanity. We don't want to admit that the people we are supposed to love have a serious problem. I know that I had a hard time doing it. My son was very smart, so I concentrated on him. To be honest with you, educator, I don't think I could do it again. It's been eight years since my husband died. It's taken me eight of those years just to understand what happened to me. I was left a very bitter person because I realized, at a very late age, that I've never had anyone who really loved or cared about me except my son. Every memory is tainted by the truth of what was really going on. Now, at 63, I see it. I am the poster girl for getting out now and starting again.

I sincerely hope that you can put everything back together. I don't know whether she'll let you do that. It's too bad that you can't move 1,000 miles away from her. Someone once told me that the only thing to do was to move. Physically move far away but I couldn't do that. First, my husband's job was in NYC. He made a good living and I didn't want to upset that. Second, I didn't want to leave my mother. I felt that she needed me. She was all alone with no friends. What would happen to her if I moved far away? I just wanted to stop the merry-go-round. All I wanted was for everyone to be happy. Well... . that never happened. What did happen was the she finally stroked out and was taken away from me by the government. She was put in a nursing home where she made everyone who worked there miserable... . until she died. My husband? Well, after he died I found out everything because he wasn't there to cover things up anymore. I found his viagra, how he funded his love interests and what he told others about me. I was left broken hearted. All of that sacrificing for nothing. I put myself on the back burner for years for nothing. Now? Eh. I live far away. My son's doing his thing but I have nothing to look forward to. I don't want anyone's pity, I made my own decisions but I hope I can inspire women who are at the same stage in life that it doesn't have to be that way. I'm sure, it can be better but only if you can break the cycle.

I wish someone told me how things would have turned out. Not that I would have believed them... . but then I was the eternal optimist back then. I'm not saying that what happened to me will happen to you (that's absurd), but I do know that borderlines like life to be quite melodramatic. They don't want (or can't) get off the merry-go-round. They like when everyone is fighting. It's a sickness.

Hugs,

Sasha

[educator]

Sasha... .I'm sorry that all that happened to you.  The difficult thing for me is that I see that I pushed my husband away.  I treated him badly and drove him back to his mother.  Should he have been stronger and not gone back to her?  Sure.  But when you are raised the way he was, it is very difficult to stand on your own.  My appointment with the T yesterday went really well.  We focused on things that I can control.  Like my behavior.  But, she also told me to acknowledge my feelings.  That I had a right to my feelings.  I really needed to hear that.  I have every right to be angry, upset and scared.  It's what I do with those feelings and how I move forward that will make the difference.

DH and I had a really good conversation this morning about being a partnership.  He feels he's not a partner.  I feel I don't have a partner.  So, in reality, we are really having the same issues.  I control everything because I feel I have to, but my T asked me, "What would happen if you just didn't do it?"  So, today I told him that I'm not planning dinner.  Meal planning, grocery shopping, grocery budgeting is now on his plate.  I'll give him the same budget I have and whatever he has leftover, we can save for a rainy day.  So, when he asked me this morning what we should do for dinner I said, "I don't know buddy... .that's on you.  I have work today and I'm not going to worry about dinner."  It sort of felt liberating.  I mean... .what's the worst that can happen?  He flakes out and the kids have PB and J? 

A friend of mine said that she feels my MIL is stepping out again because DD9 won't see her and it's MIL's way of taking back control of the situation.  That is fine with me.  Honestly, I don't think DD9 will want to see her for a long, long time. 

[Kwamina]

Hi educator

You are going through a lot right now. I am glad you have the help of a therapist and that your appointment went well yesterday. Having a T in your support network can be very helpful as you try to deal with everything that's going on.

The difficult thing for me is that I see that I pushed my husband away.  I treated him badly... .

In what ways do you feel you pushed him away and treated him badly? Are you talking about what you say later on about wanting to control everything? Has your husband ever expressed feeling like he is being controlled by you or that it upsets him that you control a lot of things?

... .and drove him back to his mother. Should he have been stronger and not gone back to her?  Sure.  But when you are raised the way he was, it is very difficult to stand on your own.

It's commendable that in spite of everything you are still able to empathize with your husband and understand how his current behavior might be influenced by his childhood. You feel like you drove him back to his mother with your actions. No matter what you did though, you aren't responsible for the decisions he makes and can't control his behavior. Even if you had done something differently, there is still no guarantee that he at some point wouldn't try to reconnect with his mother. You can't control him, but what you can control is your own behavior as you also discussed in your appointment with your therapist.

But, she also told me to acknowledge my feelings.  That I had a right to my feelings.  I really needed to hear that.  I have every right to be angry, upset and scared.  It's what I do with those feelings and how I move forward that will make the difference.

You have a right to your feelings indeed. They are a part of you so by accepting them you are accepting that part of you. What is the thing that scares you most about this situation with your husband and his mother?

DH and I had a really good conversation this morning about being a partnership.  He feels he's not a partner.  I feel I don't have a partner.  So, in reality, we are really having the same issues.  I control everything because I feel I have to, but my T asked me, "What would happen if you just didn't do it?"  

How does it make you feel to just don't do it? To just let go and not try to control everything? What thoughts went through your mind when your T asked you that question?

[educator]

Kwamina,

I treated him badly by telling him I hated him and that I wanted a divorce.  Divorce is something I've threatened in the past.  I grew up seeing my parents threaten divorce and I guess that it just stuck.  My parents were married for 25 years before divorcing.  He tells me all the time that I am controlling, but it's usually when we can't afford something he wants to buy or when I am asserting myself when it comes to stuff with our DD's.  He thinks I have control issues and I probably do.

In this situation I am most scared that my MIL will turn DH against me.  I saw a lot of that last week.  He was saying things to me that weren't true, that I never did.  Before last week we were on the same page with respect to his mom and the DD's, then all of a sudden, he was in total control, not listening to my feelings or respecting them.  I also don't want my marriage to fail and now that he saw a divorce attorney and MIL is back in the picture, I'm afraid that it might fail.  That he might leave me.  We were getting to a point where DH was actively trying to seek employment outside the home.  MIL has convinced him to start his own business.  Which is fine, but I'm afraid it won't take off and he'll just stay home all day.  It irritates me that for 3 years he was moving forward and now I feel like maybe he's moving backwards?  Or maybe it's just that I want him to work at a job with a paycheck guarantee and his own business doesn't offer that.  Maybe it's the control issues?  I mean... .he has every right not to want to work at jobs like that.  He's been fired from so many jobs due to his disablities I can't blame him for not wanting to face that again.  But, then I'm torn.  I think he could be successful at a job.  He's not the same person he was when I met him 12 years ago.

I hate when I just don't take care of things.  I don't like things not running smoothly.  I don't like not being in charge.  It makes me feel like something is going to go wrong or that I'm going to fail somehow.  Last night, we didn't eat dinner until 6:15 and we usually eat by 5.  The house was a mess and I had the girls help clean up and DH did as well.  It felt kind of good to let go of some of that control though.  I think in the long run, I'll be a lot happier being in control of less, but it's hard for me to trust DH.  Even now, I wonder if he just went out for a ride and skipped his T appointment, but there is nothing I can do about that.

[Kwamina]

Hi again educator

Thanks for answering my questions!

I treated him badly by telling him I hated him and that I wanted a divorce.  :)ivorce is something I've threatened in the past.  I grew up seeing my parents threaten divorce and I guess that it just stuck.  My parents were married for 25 years before divorcing.

This does sound like a behavior you might have picked up as a child. Many of us adult children here find ourselves struggling in our adult lives with certain behaviors that we learned from our parents or coping mechanisms we developed as a child that might not serve us all that well as adults. Are there perhaps also other learned behaviors that you identify in yourself that you now might consider somewhat unhealthy? It isn't pleasant to realize that we have these learned unhealthy behaviors, but identifying them is the first step in better managing them

 He tells me all the time that I am controlling, but it's usually when we can't afford something he wants to buy or when I am asserting myself when it comes to stuff with our DD's.  He thinks I have control issues and I probably do.

Perhaps you do have control issues when it comes to your daughters, but based on what you've shared in this thread I do understand why. To me it seems like you have certain boundaries for how your daughters should be treated by others such as your MIL and currently your husband might view those boundaries differently. Would you say this is a correct assessment? Do you feel like you're able to discuss boundaries with your husband in relation to the behaviors your daughters should or should not be exposed to?

In this situation I am most scared that my MIL will turn DH against me.  I saw a lot of that last week.  He was saying things to me that weren't true, that I never did.  Before last week we were on the same page with respect to his mom and the DD's, then all of a sudden, he was in total control, not listening to my feelings or respecting them.  I also don't want my marriage to fail and now that he saw a divorce attorney and MIL is back in the picture, I'm afraid that it might fail.  That he might leave me.  We were getting to a point where DH was actively trying to seek employment outside the home.  MIL has convinced him to start his own business.  Which is fine, but I'm afraid it won't take off and he'll just stay home all day.  It irritates me that for 3 years he was moving forward and now I feel like maybe he's moving backwards?

I understand your fears, knowing what you know of your MIL. Seeing your husband turn on you like that must have been quite difficult. Since he's a child of a BPD mother there is one thing I can say though, the lives of children of BPD parents often involve bumpy roads with a lot of ups and downs. I can see why you might view the current situation as disappointing and might feel like he's moving backwards. You never know exactly how things will turn out though and sometimes people need to move backwards to be able to move forward again later.

 Or maybe it's just that I want him to work at a job with a paycheck guarantee and his own business doesn't offer that.  Maybe it's the control issues?  I mean... .he has every right not to want to work at jobs like that.  He's been fired from so many jobs due to his disablities I can't blame him for not wanting to face that again.  But, then I'm torn.  I think he could be successful at a job.  He's not the same person he was when I met him 12 years ago.

I hate when I just don't take care of things.  I don't like things not running smoothly.  I don't like not being in charge.  It makes me feel like something is going to go wrong or that I'm going to fail somehow.  Last night, we didn't eat dinner until 6:15 and we usually eat by 5.  The house was a mess and I had the girls help clean up and DH did as well.  It felt kind of good to let go of some of that control though.  I think in the long run, I'll be a lot happier being in control of less, but it's hard for me to trust DH.  Even now, I wonder if he just went out for a ride and skipped his T appointment, but there is nothing I can do about that.

When I read your post I get the sense that not being in control or not having everything perfectly in order induces a certain level of fear or anxiety in you. Would you say this is correct? Could it perhaps be that you find yourself struggling with the two areas of personal vulnerability listed below:

• The need to be perfect (if it can’t be done excellently, then there is no point in doing it at all, falling short of perfection is pathetic and B (even C) grade, making a mistake is devastating.



• The sense of being able to influence all things (if something happens, somebody gets upset then it is your fault and you are responsible).

[Sasha026]

educator,

I feel so bad for you. I think what you are going through is a blame problem. My mother used to muddy the waters with that. Your marriage has a problem only because of your MIL. She's the problem. Not you. Don't assume fault. It's easy to do that (I did it for years) but don't do it.

Of course you don't want your marriage to fail. Who does? My mother was a divorcee and for the life of me, I wasn't going to be like her. My marriage was going to work - and it did for the most part (if I didn't ask any questions, delegate responsibility, ask for favors or help and question the checking account). I used to call my husband "the border".

Well, if therapy is working, you will see change. I effectuated change by doing it all myself. I asked for nothing. After 25 years, I wouldn't even ask my husband to change the toilet paper anymore because I knew I would get a fight. I just succumbed and we had peace. However, if you lose control and do as I did, things can take place without your knowledge. That's when it gets dicey.

I think you are going through a "rough patch" with your husband and he is running to his mother for advice. He needs someone to talk to and there she is - willing to stir the pot. You have become "the enemy". My mother used to do that, as well. She loved to zero in on some poor victim and annihilate them. She did it with a lot of people, not only me. Triangulation was her middle name.

It's hard enough to go through these rough patches in a marriage. Fighting with your husband to get something either done or not done is draining. Fighting with your husband/MIL is impossible. No matter what you say, you're in the wrong. My mother loved to gather her sides (like a child playing a game), then attack. Sometimes I think it is a game to them. To you - it's your life. Has she turned the whole family against you yet? My mother actually pitted her neighbor's against me for no reason. One of her neighbors called our house the night before my husband died (My husband died suddenly of a massive heart attack the next day) crying to him that my mother needed help. She didn't need any help - she was just doing more of her schtick.

Can I give you some advice about starting a business? Well... . you will need capital for that. If, as you said, he's been fired because of disabilities, then do you think that running a business is a feasible idea? Don't you think that the pressures of a business failing might be a little too much too soon? I agree with you in saying that a job without a lot of responsibility would be a good thing. Let him get a little of his confidence back - then after that, if he wants to go into something, okay. Just my opinion.

Is there any way you can move? I know that's a dramatic statement but it does work. I moved far away after my husband died. My mother was firmly ensconced in a nursing home and no longer could interject her poison in our little family and life started to change for me. I started seeing life differently. It's taken me a lot of time to realize that my life was a series of manipulations and that the way I was living was impossibly hectic. To be perfectly honest with you, I just don't know how I did it. You have two children, I only had one. The factors involving manipulation go up exponentially.

I've spoken to many daughters throughout my BPD journey and a lot of them agree that moving away from the crazy mother actually helps in that she can no longer just drop over for a visit. Caller ID helps with the raging phone calls or the melodramatic calls for help. It really works. Form a strong bond with your husband and children. Show him that life can be interesting without the constant stimulation.

I have PTSD and anxiety disorders from my mother and husband. I never knew what catastrophe would happen next. This made me nervous. I was used to constant emotional stimulation. I always thought, if I wasn't in complete control that my whole life would explode and come crashing down on my head because in the past it did. With my therapist's help, he has shown me that as life has gone on, that hasn't happened. I'm able to finally relax. I still get panic attacks (especially around Christmas because that's when my husband died), but for the most part I have been able to just relax. Distance helps. There is nothing here to remind me of what happened so I don't make the associations. Maybe that might help your husband, as well.

Ever consider it? It's just a thought.

Sasha

[educator]

Kwamina,

I would say that I do have issues from going up in a household that fought a lot.  I saw my mom nag my dad a great deal and I do that to my husband as well.  It's something I try to work on.  Even my mom has noticed it.  The thing is, my husband also doesn't take charge of anything, so I am often stuck doing everything and I think it gets to me.

I used to feel like I could set boundaries and DH would respect them.  Now, not so much.  Just tonight in the car I told him how awful it was for me knowing that he allowed MIL to trash me to DD9.  He got really mad and yelled, "I told her DD9 didn't want to talk about adult issues and she didn't listen!  That's just how my mom is.  I can't stop her.  She's like a bull and she's stubborn."  IMHO, that is just totally unacceptable. I don't care if that's how she is.  I will not tolerate her berating my daughter and putting me down.  Period.  End of story.  She mooned my DD4.  I don't like that.  I was told by DH that he asked her to stop and MIL replied, "Nope.  That's just the way I am.  I'm not going to change."     So, DH wants me to just accept these things so that his mom won't walk out of his life again.  Because that's what she does.  I make a boundary, she doesn't like it, so she walks out.  She already is doing that now.  Walking out again so that we can work out our problems but really I think it's because she knows DD9 won't see her and DH won't make DD9 see her.  For now.  I just feel like he's only thinking of himself right now.  About how he feels guilty if his mom's not in his life, so he'll sacrifice the emotional well being of our DD's so he doesn't feel guilty.

And, yes I am a perfectionist.  In some ways, that's great.  But, in others creates serious stress.  In therapy I plan on addressing my need to control things, be a perfectionist and the issues I have from growing up in a household where there was a lot of fighting.  I know that I play my part in this marriage, but I also know it's 50/50.

Sasha... .thanks for that! I do think that MIL is a big problem in my marriage.  I know I shouldn't have, but I looked really closely at the phone records today.  I was trying to figure out why in the world DH went crazy last week.  Sure enough... .he had been on the phone all day long with his mother most days. I think its' so odd that a grown man would talk to his mom so much.  I mean, I only call my mom maybe 1 or 2 times a week.   I can't blame her for what happened, but I know she escalated it.  I feel so violated.  She has personal letters I wrote, my tax returns and had free access to my kids for an entire day where she really upset DD9.  I was punished because I said words in a fight that I didn't mean.  As a result my kids lost out.  It sucks.


The business he's starting is actually pretty cheap to start up.  His mom is paying him to cut her grass and I told him that is what he will use for his business.  His mom offered to help him with the money, but I warned him that is never a good idea and he agreed to do it on his own.  I don't think it will be a stressful business (nor do I think it will pay many bills).  I have thought of moving.  However, we really couldn't make much $$$ on our house for a few years and I am really established in my job.  I could see myself moving in 5 years though.  I just hate it.  I love my town.  I don't want to uproot my kids because of MIL, but I feel like I might have to. 

I do think it's a game to my MIL.  She approaches life like a chess game.  She convinced him to turn against me.  I'd never do that to my DD's spouses.  Never.  My mom is not a fan of DH's, but she never once called a lawyer for me.  She didn't push me to see a lawyer even.  She just listened.  DH's mom was ready for a big fight. 

[Suzn]

So glad to hear you found some answers with your T. I agree it's good to acknowledge your emotions surrounding everything that's happened. This has been an emotional time for you and your family, it would be for anyone being on the brink of a divorce.

The thing is, my husband also doesn't take charge of anything, so I am often stuck doing everything and I think it gets to me.

This is an opportunity to practice D.E.A.R.M.A.N Communication Skills. I'm still practicing these skills myself, the times I have used them they have went well. Taking a time out for yourself when things get to you may help to step away from emotions running high. Take a walk, a trip to the grocery store, etc... . just a few minutes of alone time to take a deep breath.

I used to feel like I could set boundaries and DH would respect them.  Now, not so much.  Just tonight in the car I told him how awful it was for me knowing that he allowed MIL to trash me to DD9.  He got really mad and yelled

This stood out a little for me. This isn't a boundary being set, this is you explaining your feelings. Boundaries aren't rules for others to live by, they are rules for us to live by. Being that your H is an adult child of a parent wBPD he may have picked up some fleas as Kwamina suggests and it seems by his reaction he may have felt invalidated by this. This can be a tricky situation, something I've really bombed on in the past so I'm working on in my family as well. UnitedforNow explains how to avoid this really well here: COMMUNICATION: Validation

And, yes I am a perfectionist.  In some ways, that's great.  But, in others creates serious stress.  In therapy I plan on addressing my need to control things, be a perfectionist and the issues I have from growing up in a household where there was a lot of fighting.  I know that I play my part in this marriage, but I also know it's 50/50.

I think it's courageous of you to tackle issues that have been causing you stress. I've fought battles over perfectionism too and what I found worked best for me was using opposite action techniques. I would purposely leave things not so perfect so that I could get comfortable feeling uncomfortable.

These skills do take practice and I have been guilty of trying to do recovery perfectly too.    It's work in progress. Be kind to you during this time.

[Sasha026]

Hi educator,

Of course she's turned him against you. That's their game. My mother loved to "drop her bombs" and leave. I, too, used to spend the whole day on the phone with my mother. She would call 4 or 5 times a day and I would talk to her for hours. At first, I would talk to her about my marriage (not getting too personal), but I did. I trusted my mother at first. I thought that she always had my best interests at heart. Until one day, I sat back and thought about it, I really had no clue. As I got smarter, she got worse. She ruined every happy day of my life, bar none. But then again, you know all of this.

You and your husband need to have a strong bond. He needs to love you and the welfare of his children more than he loves her. If he doesn't then she will always be in your life. As I read your post, I noticed that you have taken some of the blame for yourself. Naturally in a marriage, one partner tends to blame him or herself if something is going wrong. We all do that, but you don't have that privilege. You have MIL/husband and you. She needs to be out of your marriage and business. Have you talked to your therapist about his loyalties? We all have our faults, no one is perfect. We all nag our husbands for various reasons. I nagged my husband but then I was "nagging" because he just wouldn't do anything outside of his job. He never took a vacation and hardly ever spoke to me for 25 years. He took no interest in our home or well being. So if you want to call that nagging, what can you do? Later, I found out why. There's always a reason. When I came too close to finding out the reason, there would be a fight.

I wish you the best. I hope all turns out well for you but, as I have said, until you can manipulate her out of his life, then she will always be there planting the seeds of hatred and holding on to him like her baby boy... . that is, until your gone. Then she'll land on him.

[educator]

Suzn... .thanks for the link to DEARMAN.  I think that would be helpful.  One of my boundaries with MIL is that she not talk badly about me to my DD9 or DD4.  Is that not a boundary?  I thought that was a boundary.  I thought boundary setting was when you let someone else know what your boundaries are... .how far they can go with you, that type of a thing?  For example... .I thought a boundary was something like... .there will just be supervised visits because MIL decided to trash me to my DD9.  So, I'm confused.

Sasha... .I will certainly bring that up at my next T appointment.  I feel he is more loyal to his mom and that hasn't been the case for the past 3 years.  I feel like he is sacrificing our families well being so assuage his own guilt for not seeing his mother.  She really got to him this time.  He hasn't been this fogged for like 10 years.  It's is very unsettling and makes me feel like I'm just not important to him anymore.  It's really sad.

[Suzn]

One of my boundaries with MIL is that she not talk badly about me to my DD9 or DD4.  Is that not a boundary?

Good question educator. Yes, this is a boundary. This boundary, although I would assume extends to anyone, is between you and her correct? This is not your husbands boundary. We can't expect someone else to enforce our boundaries for us. Explaining how you felt that he didn't wasn't setting a boundary.

Boundaries are value based. As you explained you have both been on the same page in regards to your values and things changed. Getting back on the same page seems to be the goal. Discussing your values as a couple may be a good start. What are boundaries that you agree on? (Leave his mother's name out of it for the sake of discussion)

For example

Do you agree you both would prefer no one exhibited inappropriate behavior that your DD's may imitate in school?

I feel he is more loyal to his mom and that hasn't been the case for the past 3 years. She really got to him this time.  He hasn't been this fogged for like 10 years.  It's is very unsettling and makes me feel like I'm just not important to him anymore.  It's really sad.

It hurts when we feel we are not being heard and feeling our wishes are not being respected. Unsettling indeed. Cutting all ties with a parent is a very difficult and painful decision even when there is abuse involved. With what has transpired recently everyone's abandonment fears may have been triggered. (We all have them to a certain degree.) Good for you for recognizing this may be a good topic to discuss with your T.

[educator]

See... .part of the issue is that for 4 years, DH and I had the same boundaries.  We both agreed that no one (his mom... .she's the only one that does it) would talk badly about us to our DD's.  We also had a boundary that no one (again... .his mom... .she's the only one that does it)) would teach our children inappropriate behaviors they could replicate at school. 

When we put up these boundaries (that we both agreed upon... .for 4 years) MIL decided that it should not apply to her and walked out of our DD's lives.  She refuses to respect those boundaries that we set.  Now, 4 years later, I feel DH still has that boundary, but is willing to let it go in order to have his mom in his life.  So... .because she threatens to walk out (she has already done it because DH mentioned to her that we didn't want her mooning DD4) DH is willing to accept her behavior to keep her in our lives.

I find this extremely unfair and hurtful to our DD's.  It's not about me or DH.  It's about our DD's.  For example, a few months ago when I spoke with MIL about the situation I indicated I felt counseling would help her and DH as they had always had issues before I even came into the picture.  She told me it makes her angry when I say that because I have caused all of the problems (totally not true).  Anyhow, I respect this boundary she set and I have no longer said it to her because she asked me not to.  I don't see how it is fair that I have to accept boundaries, but she does not.  They don't apply to her.

But, I suppose my bigger issue here is that DH and I are not on the same page.  I feel like I keep getting hit from all sides in an attempt to protect my kids.  I turn into a bad guy, when in reality I am just trying to protect my children from emotionally harming behaviors.  I can't stop DH from having  a r/s with his mom, but I feel I should have a say in the r/s she has with myself and my DD's.  DH seems to feel that he should have all the say in the r/s she has with our children and that is where we are having issues.  When he pulled them out of school last week to see MIL, he did irreparable damage to DD9.  She was berated and had to listen to MIL run me down, despite DH telling MIL that DD9 didn't want to be involved in adult issues.  But, because MIL wanted to talk about that, MIL got her way at the cost of damaging my 9 year old child.  Fortunately, my DD9 could see right through her grandmother's antics and has decide on her own to no longer see her because DD9 is putting up her own boundary.  But... .should my young children have to be the ones to manage their grandmother?  I don't think that's fair.

[Kwamina]

I can't stop DH from having  a r/s with his mom, but I feel I should have a say in the r/s she has with myself and my DD's.  :)H seems to feel that he should have all the say in the r/s she has with our children and that is where we are having issues.

I totally agree with you. You are their mother and it is only logical that you would want to protect them against harmful influences.

When we put up these boundaries (that we both agreed upon... .for 4 years) MIL decided that it should not apply to her and walked out of our DD's lives.  She refuses to respect those boundaries that we set.  Now, 4 years later, I feel DH still has that boundary, but is willing to let it go in order to have his mom in his life.  So... .because she threatens to walk out (she has already done it because DH mentioned to her that we didn't want her mooning DD4) DH is willing to accept her behavior to keep her in our lives.

In the article we have on this site about boundaries, the link is made to values. Though you still believe your husband still has the same boundary, some of his current actions indeed seem to conflict with this boundary. Perhaps it can help to look at this from the perspective of values:

When we speak of “boundaries” we are really speaking about our personal values. This point is often overlooked.  Personal boundaries are simply one way we define our values to others.

... .

Regardless of the type of relationship, we all come to it with values that we intend to honor and defend regardless of the nature of the relationship - these are known as core values or independent values- this is how we define ourselves.  

We also have values that we are prepared to mold and adapt as we blend with the other person in the relationship - these become inter-dependent values - this is how we grow together.

... .

Identify and live your personal values!  Independent core values determine our decisions and guide our lives. It's important that we stay true to them- they should be clearly reflected in the life choices we make.

Perhaps it will help your husband to consider what his core values really are. Does he value protecting his daughters most or does having his mother in his life mean most to him, even at the expense of his daughters? Do you feel like your husband is able to place himself in the shoes of your daughter and truly understands how they are affected by their grandmother? He was raised by her so you could say that he has to know, yet at the same time, being raised by her might also make it more difficult for him to objectively view just how unhealthy his mother's behavior is.

Just some thoughts from the board parrot that I hope might help you

PS. You can find that article about boundaries here: Getting Our Values and Boundaries in Order

[Suzn]

Now, 4 years later, I feel DH still has that boundary, but is willing to let it go in order to have his mom in his life.  So... .because she threatens to walk out (she has already done it because DH mentioned to her that we didn't want her mooning DD4) DH is willing to accept her behavior to keep her in our lives.

She was berated and had to listen to MIL run me down, despite DH telling MIL that DD9 didn't want to be involved in adult issues.

He is playing his role with his mother it seems. He is the child, not the adult. We (adult children) can easily fall back into roles we've been accustomed to our whole lives, without professional intervention. That goes for all of us. In this last quote... .An adult would take responsibility for a boundary and not leave the responsibility to a child. In other words... ."I do not want my daughter involved in adult conversations."  

Who is the adult here?

For example, a few months ago when I spoke with MIL about the situation I indicated I felt counseling would help her and DH as they had always had issues before I even came into the picture.  She told me it makes her angry when I say that because I have caused all of the problems (totally not true).  

Educator this is invalidating to her. It rarely goes well to tell someone wBPD they need help if they don't see it themselves first. It usually puts someone on the defensive, which it did here.

You can't fix the situation with her and her son. Stay out of the triangle.



It's understandable to want to help when we are feeling uncomfortable with a situation such as this. We have to comfort ourselves. It's hard to recognize our own discomfort and then to step back and allow a situation to play out on it's own without our intervention. It keeps us safe from being placed into the prosecutor role. As your MIL did to you here. It's like a game... .though we don't realize we're playing it, you can see it here. I've played this game too, we all have before learning about it. 

Anyhow, I respect this boundary she set and I have no longer said it to her because she asked me not to.  I don't see how it is fair that I have to accept boundaries, but she does not.  They don't apply to her.

Examine your expectations. You are dealing with a disordered person. It's good that you respect others boundaries, you are an adult.

I can't stop DH from having  a r/s with his mom, but I feel I should have a say in the r/s she has with myself and my DD's.  

It's really good that you see this. A bond between a parent and a child is strong. Expecting him to cut ties with his mother would be no different than someone expecting one of your daughters to cut ties with you. That may seem like a bad example however the emotions tied to it are very similar. He seems to be struggling with the emotions, the guilt, the loss, the love, fears of abandonment from you and from her. This is hard stuff educator. Giving him some space to come to terms with the struggle without pressure of having to choose may be helpful. Try not to take this personally, his struggle with his mother has nothing to do with you... .as you said, they had issues long before you came along.

When he pulled them out of school last week to see MIL, he did irreparable damage to DD9.  

Fortunately, my DD9 could see right through her grandmother's antics and has decide on her own to no longer see her because DD9 is putting up her own boundary.  

A father has the right to pull a child out of school if there are no court orders in place. I can see this is upsetting to you,it would be for me too. This is an opportunity to discuss a boundary. What would that boundary look like?

"Irreparable damage" sounds like worst case scenario. I don't see that since as you state your daughter has seen through the antics. She sounds perceptive. You are sounding the alarms. You don't have to justify your being upset your children where taken out of school without your knowledge. It's reasonable on it's own merit.

should my young children have to be the ones to manage their grandmother?  I don't think that's fair.

Absolutely not. Who are the adults here? The discussion surrounding this is between you and your husband and should be out of earshot of your children. Your children will likely make their own choices when they are old enough, emotionally mature enough, to handle the emotions surrounding adult decisions such as these. Involving them at this young age would be putting them at risk of parentification. It would be forcing them to choose who to love more and putting them in a position to decide who they must defend. These decisions are for adults who have the capability to know what's best for them.

Have you and your H considered marriage counseling to assist you with getting on the same page where your marriage and your children are concerned?

[Panda39]

Hi educator,

In reading this thread I too was reminded of the Karpman Triangle so I thought I'd attach a link for more information about it in case you haven't already checked it out.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=108440.0

We can each play any of the roles... .Persecutor, Rescuer or Victim.  That's the thing about the triangle once you're in it with 2 other people you all can just spin around in there taking on different rolls forever unless you decide not to play.

You can look at your situation from several different perspectives on the triangle.  

Version #1

You as the Persecutor (angry at your husband for exposing D to MIL), your husband the victim (I'm just as much a victim as D to MIL's bad behavior) and MIL as the rescuer (Poor son he has such an awful uptight wife I will rescue him from her and be the shoulder her can cry on)

Version #2

MIL as the Persecutor (angry because she feels she doesn't get what she wants from son/family), your daughter the victim (mooned by MIL/punished for not being/doing what MIL wants) and you as the rescuer (daughter should not have to put up with that!)

Version #3

Husband as Persecutor (you just don't support my need for a relationship with MIL) You as rescuer (I will save husband from MIL) MIL as victim (son would love me if only it weren't for his pesky wife)

So maybe just keep the triangle in mind with the dynamics/situations you find yourself in... .how can you step out of the triangle.

Version #1 Maybe rather than get angry and become the persecutor you could have validated how hard it is on your husband to have a mom that does this stuff and you know her actions are not his fault.

Version #2 Maybe rather than getting involved you could have directed D to talk with dad directly and share her feelings with him.

Version #3 Maybe rather than getting in the middle of mother and son you let him have whatever relationship he wants to have with her and all that goes with it.

I hope I'm being clear and you see what I'm getting at    One of the biggest lessons I've learned from coming here is that we can only change ourselves and our actions, but the interesting thing about that is often when we change it creates change or different reactions in those around us.

It is obvious to me that you love your husband and family very much and all the work you are doing will benefit both you and them.  Keep up the good work. 

[educator]

Suzn... .yes... .we are going to start marriage counseling soon because our marriage is just totally crumbling apart.  We used to a be a partnership... .now it's not at all.

Panda... .yes... .those scenarios are spot on.  It's hard for me to stay out of it because in the past MIL has done so much damage to our family.  Even today, he went over there and she was starting more drama.  She came to see DD4 at a game last night.  DD9 was there (she helps us coach and came halfway through the game).  MIL was on the opposite side of the field.  DD9 does not want to see MIL.  She doesn't want to interact with her.  She didn't wave or say hi and in all honesty, there wasn't time for that.  Well... .MIL and FIL took off as soon as the game was over... .didn't come near us.   Then this morning, they went off on DH about how DD9 needs to respect them.  Then, they said that they planned on showering DD4 with b-day presents and just getting DD9 a card because she can't act like that. I feel like my DD9 is getting blamed for something that MIL did... .they walk off and then blame DD9    We were still busy getting kids off to parents when they took off.  It is clear as day and DH just doesn't see it.   It is exactly what our T warned us about 3 years ago.  One day DD9 would stop giving MIL her supply of attention and she'd gravitate towards DD4.  Well... .just 2 weeks back into the r/s and it's all coming to fruition.  DH said he didn't know how he felt about that and MIL asked him to think about the gifts and the fact that DD9 needs to respect her.  My poor little DD9 is going to become the scapegoat, just as our T predicted.

Thing is... .it's not just the fact that MIL talked badly about me to DD9 while DH sat there and watched.  DD9 doesn't like how immature MIL is.  She doesn't like the mooning, the poopy songs, etc.  In all honesty, I just don't know if I can hang on for the ride this time with MIL.  I married DH, not her and when she's back in the picture he's a completely different person. He becomes more like her.  She attempts to turn him against me every chance she gets and I am just tired of fighting that... .having to prove myself.  I've stayed by him 12 years and have always had his back.  I feel that I deserve a husband who puts his FOC first.  But, that's not what I have.

[Panda39]

MIL is splitting your children D9 all bad/painted black and D4 all good/painted white (both positions are unhealthy for your kids)... .info on Splitting: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=62033.0

It's so frustrating to have the MIL interfering in your life and hurting your children with a husband that seems to waffle back and forth between her and your family, it undermines any boundaries you set.  However she is his mother and he loves her in spite of her awful behaviors. 

Is your husband getting individual therapy? (Sounds like you have a couples therapist)  Having someone outside of you and his mother to talk with may do him some good.  Has your husband ever visited here? Would you be comfortable sharing this forum with him? It could help him see the unhealthy behaviors of his mom and help him understand how important it is to protect his children from his mother's hurtful behavior.

[Suzn]

Suzn... .yes... .we are going to start marriage counseling soon because our marriage is just totally crumbling apart.  We used to a be a partnership... .now it's not at all.

Steady as she goes educator.    Good to hear you and H will be seeing a marriage counselor. I'm sorry you're frustrated and hurting. Anyone would be in your shoes. Emotions are running high. How are you coping? Can you give yourself a time out when you need one? Take a walk, a trip to the grocery store, something along these lines to give you a breather?

She attempts to turn him against me every chance she gets and I am just tired of fighting that... .having to prove myself.

You can't control her. You are the only one feeling you have to prove yourself, you don't have to. If you will be having contact with her, and it sounds like you may, you will want to look over the communication skills provided earlier in this thread when you feel up to it. They can help with your conversations with your H too.

I feel that I deserve a husband who puts his FOC first.  But, that's not what I have.

From everything you've shared, he's been triggered, maybe numerous times. It may take a bit for him to get back to baseline. Trying to force him to choose while he is going through this process can extend the time this takes.

Hang in there.

[educator]

Panda... .yes he does see his own T.  She actually indicated (after his mom picketed in front of our house) that his mom had n traits as well as BPD traits, though no one can dx her without seeing her.  Thing is... .at his last appointment... .he only mentioned he reconciled with his mom but didn't give her any of the information about what his mom had done.  He knows about this site and he tried it once years ago... .he isn't into the online thing.  My sister can be challenging as well, but I've always set firm boundaries with her and it frustrates me that the same isn't done with his mother.  For example, we are planning a family trip with my FOO next summer and my sister said that she couldn't stay in the same house as my DH.  So... .my family told her that she is welcome there and so is my DH and she can choose whether she wants her own house or not.  With his family, he doesn't stick up for me like that and it is infuriating. 

Suzn... .yes... .I think he is very triggered.  He's in a big transition time in his life now that he is looking at getting back into the workforce, in which he's never been successful and he thought that I was going to leave him, which is why he reached out to his mother in the first place.  For now, I think I am going to not contact her much and leave DH to deal with her.  When I saw her last night I was very cordial and kept things very medium chill with her.  And... .yes... .I do need to take time outs.  Even today, when DH told me on the phone her new plan about b-day presents, I told him that might be something we should talk to a T about and that we just needed to have a good day as a family.  I'm not one who likes to push things off, but I also feel he's too fogged at the moment to see the splitting she is doing.  Ironically enough, she split him and his brother his entire life and DH was usually the 'bad' one. 

I feel that I push him away because he knows how I feel about his family.  This has been going on for years.  They all treated me horribly for years and I think I am just fed up with it.  I don't deserve it.