OOPS, had sex with the ol' BPD ex last night

[dagwoodbowser]

Seems to me this all a form or type of Passive-Aggressive Pay Back... .plain and simple.

[Mister Brightside]

Also, whilst his motivation wasn't revenge, isn't there a hint of karma in this if she's the one left hurting this time? 

I don't think unleashing karma on our ex-BPDs is our responsibility. If they never get psychiatric help, their entire life will present them with karma and devastating situations. Generally speaking, I think it can harm us just as much to seek vengeance. It's difficult to live a life of peace when we're seeking out justice.

This past week my ex-BPD broke no contact at 48 days, something I wasn't sure she'd ever do. I haven't responded to her. As I've told others, despite the many thoughtless things she told me, I'm not ignoring her to punish her. I'm ignoring her because I have a history of taking the bait after dealing with four cluster Bs over the last 10 years, and I'm proving to myself that I'm finally learning this lesson and respecting myself by not throwing myself back to the wolf. And rumor has it that the ex-BPD has said she could get me back any time she wanted, no matter what she does, and I'm proving to her and my former people pleasing self that's not going to happen.

My point is, at this point, it's about healing ourselves and growing, and seeking karma hurts our chance of lasting peace, something BPDs will never experience (except in rare cases where some go to therapy and stick with it.

[FannyB]

I don't think unleashing karma on our ex-BPDs is our responsibility.

Mr Brightside

I wasn't suggesting that Infern0's actions were revenge motivated - quite the opposite. Some speculated that his actions may have damaged his ex - I questioned whether that would constitute karma given the pain she had caused him in the past. Nothing more, nothing less. 

[Skip]

My point is, at this point, it's about healing ourselves and growing, and seeking karma hurts our chance of lasting peace, something BPDs will never experience (except in rare cases where some go to therapy and stick with it.

I want to add to this general comment - which is directed to all of us... .

Family Systems Theory says we seek our emotional equal in our mates.  Equal, not equivalent. This is not 100% true for everyone - but it speaks generally to us as a group.

We have a choice to see that now in the wake of the experience we each have had and step up our game.

Whenever I react, I always ask myself, not if it's real (the feelings are), but am I thinking maturely - am I being the man I want to be - an I walking the values/boundaries that I want those in my life to walk with me.

We can lead our lives. Or we can sail without a rudder.

Good mental health is hard.  It takes strength. Now is one of those times.

[Mister Brightside]

I don't think unleashing karma on our ex-BPDs is our responsibility.

Mr Brightside

I wasn't suggesting that Infern0's actions were revenge motivated - quite the opposite. Some speculated that his actions may have damaged his ex - I questioned whether that would constitute karma given the pain she had caused him in the past. Nothing more, nothing less. 

My bad. I guess my reading comprehension suffers when I sleep in (Saturdays are my only day to do that).

[Skip]

if indifference is the opposite of love - hasn't Inferno just demonstrated that?

When we speak of indifference, we are speaking about letting go of the emotional tie that binds us someone we are no longer in a relationship with. It speaks to being indifferent to their normal actions as an independent person. For example - not being hurt that they didn't call us on our birthday 6 months after the relationship ended.  If we loved them, broken up or not, that is hard, it takes time.

I don't think we extend that to indifference about the safety, health, or wellbeing of others at our hands - that would be depraved indifference.

Not sure what the 'wrong' was here? Sex between two consenting adults, not initiated on the basis of a false promise?

Would Inferno have been wrong to feel used or abused if he woke up and found her gone in the morning.  Or would we have said, no biggy, "sex between two consenting adults", no worries?  

Would this mean we are holding mentally ill people to higher standard than ourselves?

How do we reconcile time like this?  What are our values here (not a rhetorical question)?

Talking about it openly helps (without shame or judgment or JADE or mean spiritedness).

[myself]

Is it 'indifference' if you post about it asap (while the bed's still warm)?

Do 'consenting adults' need to sneak away afterward? Blaming _____?

If you're not honest with yourself, are you being honest with anyone?

[ReclaimingMyLife]

Any chance we might take it a tad bit easy on Inferno here?  I made MANY mistakes in my r/s and am certain I am not immune to doing so in the future.  Feels to me like there is a lot of energy around defending Inferno's ex in this thread and wondering how she feels.  Honestly, I am much more curious about how Inferno is feeling. I am curious about what Inferno is feeling, wanting, needing here from us.  What say you, Inferno?   

There was another thread several weeks ago that was about a bpdfamily member having had an affair.  Seemed there was a lot of energy around taking him to task for his choices and his mistakes. 

While I believe we are in here in search of learning and healing, how can we offer that to ourselves and each other in a way in which we don't make each other wrong. 

Detachment and recovery are a hard process, from my experience.  Often, two steps forward one step back.  More like one step forward two steps back.  How do we support each other even when we think someone has stepped back (which the person may or may not agree with)?

How do we keep this a safe and supportive space even when we disagree with each other?  How does Inferno or any of us get to 'fess up to our OOPS and not be shamed for OOPSing?

Just my 2 cents... .

[Rapt Reader]

We want to ask participants to stay centered and stay on topic with this thread.

It's a difficult subject and we need to talk about it without:

• taking jabs at each other, or



• over reacting to those with a different viewpoint, or



• trying to rescue the OP or any of the participants.

Tall order?  Yes.  We can do it.

3.1 Advising and Supporting Others: Members should offer advice as peer opinions targeted directly to the host of the thread. Members shall offer only compassionate, well founded and fact based advice.

Members critiquing, or challenging the advise of others should offer their comments in a respectful, positive and constructive manner. Members should respect and embrace the opinions of others, not deride them, and recognize diversity is an important part of the learning process. Collegial Discussion is the exchange of ideas, not a debate or an argument to be won. Our common interests and goals are what brings us together - let it not be what comes between us.

Please be mindful that one of the important roles we all have is to help “center” others, not pile on or inflame emotional unrest. Member should not "hijack" the threads of others by changing the subject. All posts should be targeted to the subject matter introduced by the host of the thread. Our individual thoughts and ideas are important to each of us. Members shall be patient and understanding of other members that are in different stages of the learning or healing process or have different opinions than their own.

[FannyB]

Not sure what the 'wrong' was here? Sex between two consenting adults, not initiated on the basis of a false promise?

Would Inferno have been wrong to feel used or abused if he woke up and found her gone in the morning.  Or would we have said, no biggy, "sex between two consenting adults", no worries?

Yes Skip, as long as she hadn't lied to get him into bed, I would say that.   Adults make adult decisions and have to live with the consequences. Lots of men and women sleep with each other purely for sexual gratification - with no thought of a LTR. That is their choice. The reason many of us have issues with pwBPD is that we feel duped by them. I see no unequivocal evidence in Infern0's post that he duped his ex into sleeping with him.  As I stated before, I wouldn't have made the same choices as Infern0 did, but who am I to judge him for the choices he makes? 

[Skip]

Yes Skip, as long as she hadn't lied to get him into bed, I would say that.   Adults make adult decisions and have to live with the consequences. Lots of men and women sleep with each other purely for sexual gratification... .

OK.  Your point is that a drunken call for sex, sneaking out before the person wakes up, and mocking them to your friends afterward is OK. Adult behavior, adult decision, "buyer beware" / live with the consequences.

All right. That's your value set. It's in the open.

It's a collegial format here so we don't need to debate it or counter it.  This is simply how you see it.

Thanks for clarifying.

[Infern0]

OK, OK interesting responses for sure but should have been forseen really... .

What people need to understand here is that for one thing I am NOT a codependent person anymore.  I'm currently in a phase of adapting to life free of that messed up white knight mentality that landed me on this site, so damaged because of my belief that "saving" someone would make me feel better about myself. That's the first thing people Need to understand.  I'm in the first few weeks of actually living my life, that's the current situation.

In terms of her. Yes I view her differently these days, does it mean that I don't care about her?

Of course I care.

Does it mean I am going to give her responsibility for my own happiness, hell no. I've done that too many times in the past and it was my own fault it lead to disastrous results

I have been in contact with her and currently I'm deciding if I want to meet her and go to the movies with no set expectations next week. 

If I go I'll treat her like I'd treat anyone else,  not badly obviously but she's certainly not getting special treatment based on her disorder anymore.  If she can demonstrate mutual respect then we can be friends and see what happens.

So don't worry, and anyone white knighting, get off the horse, I'm not some monster hurting the "damsel in distress", I'm just setting and sticking to a very firm boundary,  she will treat me with the same respect I expect from anyone, and I will treat her as I would anyone else.  No special treatment because of bed

If she can't handle that she can go find another codependent person to demolish.

[Infern0]

It was a stupid thing to do while drunk

I do still care about her but I'm not going to let her abuse that care

I'm happy with myself these days, I trust my ability to stick to my boundaries

It was mutual and consentual sex, she wanted to hook up,  so did I.  I probably would have left it alone if I hadn't had about 7 coronas and 8 shots.  However the fact I did it and managed to not fall apart after shows progress to me.

This wasn't about "revenge" there is no "revenge" to be had here because the pain I felt during RS was internal and I brought it on myself by allowing to abuse my boundaries.

I've been clear with her that she can stay in my life but that it's going to be different this time, she's not going to bring me down to her level and we have a long way to go to rebuild trust.

She's accepting of that and has actually complimented me on "standing up for myself.

She has apologized for hurting me in the past, I told her I appreciate the apology but it's not needed as I learned from the whole experience and see it as a positive.

She wants to hang out next week, I have told her I'll consider it.

Nobody got hurt,  some positive may come from it, we'll see.

[Skip]

Have you had a chance to read the boundaries workshop, yet?

This is part of it... .



Defending Boundaries   Even when we live our values responsibly,  we can still encounter boundary busting.

When this happens, we should first challenge ourselves.   Counter-intuitive, I know.  <1> Did we make choices that were inconsistent with our independent core values?  If so, which was wrong, the value or the choice?  :)o we need to change one?  <2> Have we been consistent in our actions and effective in our communications?  Or have we been sending a mixed message?  :)o we need to dedicate the time and effort to clean this up (this takes time)?

We also need to look at all the options(s) we have to available to us to help us navigate back and stay true to our value.  I use the plural form of option because just saying "no" and taking timeout is not enough. Yes, it helps greatly in the moment, but if we are in a value hostile environment, we need to look at all the ways we can address that.

Having values empowers us and motivates others.

I listen to the points of view of others and take them seriously

I treat everybody with respect

I am always supportive of family and friends

I am totally honest in all my dealings with others

... .and I expect that same.

Defending boundaries (without values) tends to be shallow, reactive, and confrontational

I will not tolerate you getting in my face (stated aggressively)

If you do things I don't like, I will respond by doing things that are equally distressing to you

You weren't there when I needed you, so I wasn't there when you need me

Etc.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=61684.0

[FannyB]

Glad to see you back Infern0 - was getting tired of being kicked on your behalf!  

OK.  Your point is that a drunken call for sex, sneaking out before the person wakes up, and mocking them to your friends afterward is OK. Adult behavior, adult decision, "buyer beware" / live with the consequences.

All right. That's your value set. It's in the open.

And Skip, sorry but that wasn't my point at all. I was referring to events leading up to Inferno's 'liaison' when no obvious duplicity took place. In such instances I feel that consenting adults should live with the consequences of their actions. Trust that clarifies my stance.

[FannyB]

... .you can spin it any way you want... .but that is just how difficulties start to happen.  Right?

Agreed - which is why I have stated in virtually every post on this very topic that I would not have done what Infern0 did. I just refuse to condemn him for it - that's all. 

[Infern0]

Skip,  reread my second post above.

Nobody got hurt here although there were some immature hijinks.

If I'd wanted to hurt her I could,  very easily.  I have no desire to.

Thanks for the backup fanny, I'll take it from here.  Anyone has anything to say to me or any questions, fire away.  I'll answer honestly.

[myself]

If she can demonstrate mutual respect then we can be friends and see what happens.

Even though she didn't follow through with this the last time, or the time before that, or... .And you said you were done each time because of it. So, because you say you've changed now, she's suddenly changed too? Or momentarily changed enough to help keep the wheels spinning? '10 Beliefs', man, this stuff sounds like many of them. As you're saying yourself, it'll be the actions not the words that count. On both sides. Respecting each other.

No special treatment because of bed

Back in contact/another chance/likely back together soon=? Sure, there's more to it, but it's how the door reopened this time, right?

I trust my ability to stick to my boundaries

As all of this is being said with peace and love, with regards to your progress, I'll add: Good, for both of you, especially for you. That would lead to much less 'OOPS', less drama, less future pain. For real, best of luck to you.

[Infared]

This is a tricky one. Wouldn't want to go there again with my ex, but if indifference is the opposite of love - hasn't Inferno just demonstrated that? Also, whilst his motivation wasn't revenge, isn't there a hint of karma in this if she's the one left hurting this time?  

If someone is hurting me... .it just makes me "less than" to hurt them back.  I did not come to this valuable website to talk about getting even... .or to be vengeful (wrapped in the BS of "Karma" which makes the vengefulness sound like something softer.).   I came here to heal. If I am getting even with a sick human being... .I am not healing... .I am just getting sicker.

[123Phoebe]

Thanks for the backup fanny, I'll take it from here.  Anyone has anything to say to me or any questions, fire away.  I'll answer honestly.

Okay... .

What does "continued contact" mean to you?

I'd be open to continued contact with her if she'd get therapy but that's not going to happen so it isn't a good idea.

Is it a good idea to willingly invite (pull) and then leave (push) a supposed "fruitcake" unattended at your house   And then badmouth her?

Do you disrespect her for sleeping with you?

[Infern0]

If she can demonstrate mutual respect then we can be friends and see what happens. Even though she didn't follow through with this the last time, or the time before that, or... .And you said you were done each time because of it. So, because you say you've changed now, she's suddenly changed too? Or momentarily changed enough to help keep the wheels spinning? '10 Beliefs', man, this stuff sounds like many of them. As you're saying yourself, it'll be the actions not the words that count. On both sides. Respecting each other.

No special treatment because of bed Back in contact/another chance/likely back together soon=? Sure, there's more to it, but it's how the door reopened this time, right?

I trust my ability to stick to my boundaries As all of this is being said with peace and love, with regards to your progress, I'll add: Good, for both of you, especially for you. That would lead to much less 'OOPS', less drama, less future pain. For real, best of luck to you.

No she didn't follow it through last time. But last time my own mindset and behavior was messed up and I was reliant on her for my own happiness.

This time I've finally manages to get into a good frame of mind and I'm happy with myself.

If she can be incorporated into that in a positive way, wonderful.  If not, then that's a shame for her.

We'll see how things go. I have no expectations but I'm not in such pain that I can't communicate with her,  I owned my own mistakes and I was a chronic enabler for her.

It'll be interesting to see what happens

[Skip]

Have you had a chance to read the boundaries workshop, yet?

This is part of it... .



Defending Boundaries   Even when we live our values responsibly,  we can still encounter boundary busting.

When this happens, we should first challenge ourselves.   Counter-intuitive, I know.  <1> Did we make choices that were inconsistent with our independent core values?  If so, which was wrong, the value or the choice?  Do we need to change one?  <2> Have we been consistent in our actions and effective in our communications?  Or have we been sending a mixed message?  Do we need to dedicate the time and effort to clean this up (this takes time)?

We also need to look at all the options(s) we have to available to us to help us navigate back and stay true to our value.  I use the plural form of option because just saying "no" and taking timeout is not enough. Yes, it helps greatly in the moment, but if we are in a value hostile environment, we need to look at all the ways we can address that.

Having values empowers us and motivates others.

I listen to the points of view of others and take them seriously

I treat everybody with respect

I am always supportive of family and friends

I am totally honest in all my dealings with others

... .and I expect that same.

Defending boundaries (without values) tends to be shallow, reactive, and confrontational

I will not tolerate you getting in my face (stated aggressively)

If you do things I don't like, I will respond by doing things that are equally distressing to you

You weren't there when I needed you, so I wasn't there when you need me

Etc.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=61684.0

Inferno, I know you dismissed this earlier under the claim of "no harm, no foul", but I'd encourage you to read it. Your clearly operating in the bottom list - it might work for a little while, but it's kinda fools gold.

I've read the Alpha Male material.  If someone is a doormat, its a great wakeup call. Get the power back in balance.  But if anyone is buying the idea that a significant sustained power imbalance in the other direction is a win, they are going learn a very hard lesson about smoldering resentment. Many of the relationships on this board succumbed to a smoldering resentment that ignited and our member said "wow, I never saw it coming".

If you really want to make another run at this relationship, I'd recommend getting in the staying board and learning the psychology of a BPD women and how to communicate and work with her.

In my impression, its not about commanding power - its about strength. Stength is a benevolent - but not gullible.

[Inside]

Thanks for the admission, and warning, Infern0…  I’ve occasionally thought that if I backslid (again) ... .I’d lack the guts to come back here to admit it.  Hell, after my seven rounds, I call that six too many!  ... .keep us posted

... .hadn't finished all six pages... .hope all's well

[ReclaimingMyLife]

Strength is a benevolent - but not gullible.

Love this quote.   Thank you!

[Inside]

... .having read further... .I get it, Infern0.  :)id the same myself, and each time our r/s, to whatever diminished level, decreased in duration.  Eventually, both realized a normal healthy r/s was beyond us.

So... .do you foresee a normal healthy r/s?  Or, does it matter?  My advice is not to waste further time - unless you need further evidence of dysfunction, but that always comes at a price.  

I’m most worried about you, as there’s nothing can be done for her (sad to say).  But, you sound much as I did under similar circumstances; you know the score, understand the game, and can now call some shots.  She’ll recognize this power, be drawn to it ... .only to find it’s no longer as vulnerable to her brand of deception.  And, you may be able to help her, as you’ve less to lose.  

My uBPDxgf finally admitted her ... .condition (if not BPD - actually describing herself as crazy) due to my taking less and less crap.  And it helped me realize her limitations; thus for once, at last - I left!  It caused her to look beyond her well worn playbook.  Win-win?  Nobody wins with BPD.  Stay strong ~

[Infern0]

... .having read further... .I get it, Infern0.  Did the same myself, and each time our r/s, to whatever diminished level, decreased in duration.  Eventually, both realized a normal healthy r/s was beyond us.

So... .do you foresee a normal healthy r/s?  Or, does it matter?  My advice is not to waste further time - unless you need further evidence of dysfunction, but that always comes at a price. 

I’m most worried about you, as there’s nothing can be done for her (sad to say).  But, you sound much as I did under similar circumstances; you know the score, understand the game, and can now call some shots.  She’ll recognize this power, be drawn to it ... .only to find it’s no longer as vulnerable to her brand of deception.  And, you may be able to help her, as you’ve less to lose. 

My uBPDxgf finally admitted her ... .condition (if not BPD - actually describing herself as crazy) due to my taking less and less crap.  And it helped me realize her limitations; thus for once, at last - I left!  It caused her to look beyond her well worn playbook.  Win-win?  Nobody wins with BPD.  Stay strong ~

I don't know what I forsee, because I'm not looking too far ahead.

My mindset before ALWAYS was that if I could just keep her around and help her I'd be happy.

A false belief.

Right now I'm just enjoying her being in my life but not reliant on her

Do I still have feelings for her? Yes.

Do I think a successful relationship is possible? Unsure.

What I do know is that the interactions I have had with her before we're unhealthy on both sides.

For her side,  usual BPD waif behavior

For my side

Weakness,  neediness, insecurity, low self esteem, fear, controlling behaviour, trying to be her therapist, letting her behaviour effect me too much.

Bpd - codependent relationships will never work

Bpd - healthy non, well there is less data on how this works out.

My mindset is as I say,  I'm not looking forward too much,  I am also not "scared" of her anymore, she has no ability to make me feel any way unless I hand her that power.

My life is good and she's welcome in it IF she behaves respectful.  If not, I'm good.

[Skip]

We all agree, being needy and a doormat is not going to get you anywhere.

Being emotionally unavailable - which might work for a short time - but not much more.

You've initiated the a recycle.  

Do you think you should work the staying board? Learn the tools? 

[Infern0]

We all agree, being needy and a doormat is not going to get you anywhere.

Being emotionally unavailable - which might work for a short time - but not much more.

You've initiated the a recycle.  

Do you think you should work the staying board? Learn the tools? 

It's not being emotionally unavailable though.

I do still have feelings for her yes, but they are well balanced these days, I'm not emotionally detached,  I'm outcome detached,  I think that's the key difference here.  I haven't become a narcissist. 

As for the staying board, I don't know I'll see How things go before I go over there, I'm not 100% "in" at this stage

[Skip]

The time to learn the tools is before the problems start - you want to set up the new tone - not wait till it melts down - tools won't help you then.  Without that, this will go the same path as the last time.

The tools will help you with any relationship.

Not being a doormat is a good first step. But it's not enough to make a person with BPD well. If she has BPD or BPD traits, this is a special needs person and you will need to know how to deal with that.

"Peformance", as you say, is only a temporary thing in any relationship - relationships break down from time to time and there needs to be a foundation.

Think of it this way. If you want to play on a baseball team, do you practice before the tryout and give it your best?  Or do you eat pizza and drink beer the night before, show up with a maybe/maybe not attitude and see if you make the team.  Then practice?

I'm not saying run into her arms.  That would be the worst thing.  But I also saying it takes more.

Somethings not adding up for me here.  It might be where the others struggle, too.

What actually happened this morning?  This was initially presented as a sort of skunk dumping... .is that what happened... .or was it a nice note?  How did she react when you talked to her today?

[Trog]

... .having read further... .I get it, Infern0.  Did the same myself, and each time our r/s, to whatever diminished level, decreased in duration.  Eventually, both realized a normal healthy r/s was beyond us.

So... .do you foresee a normal healthy r/s?  Or, does it matter?  My advice is not to waste further time - unless you need further evidence of dysfunction, but that always comes at a price. 

I’m most worried about you, as there’s nothing can be done for her (sad to say).  But, you sound much as I did under similar circumstances; you know the score, understand the game, and can now call some shots.  She’ll recognize this power, be drawn to it ... .only to find it’s no longer as vulnerable to her brand of deception.  And, you may be able to help her, as you’ve less to lose. 

My uBPDxgf finally admitted her ... .condition (if not BPD - actually describing herself as crazy) due to my taking less and less crap.  And it helped me realize her limitations; thus for once, at last - I left!  It caused her to look beyond her well worn playbook.  Win-win?  Nobody wins with BPD.  Stay strong ~

.



Bpd - codependent relationships will never work

Bpd - healthy non, well there is less data on how this works .

There's a reason for that! Nons are not attracted to them (at least not for more than a day!). I'm basing this on my exp and understanding, I've spoken to dozens of friends and acquaintances after my marriage ended, while my ex is unquestionably attractive all my male friends sensed she was trouble and were uncomfortable around her and disliked her.

I don't get when there are 3.5 billion women on this planet why you're hanging around with someone who hurt you? Wouldn't focussing your energy on other women be a better bet?