Dumped, Retrieved, Weird Contact - What the heck?

[lolli]

After working seven days a week for the last few months and not seeing Luke (undiagnosed, I suspect he has BPD because his behavior matches what I have read all over this site) very often, we saw each other a couple of times this past week.  The first evening was nice, casual and fun.  The second occasion, his birthday, started out that way and then turned bad.

We went out to eat, had a nice time, went back to his place, he opened his presents which he seemed to like a lot, then he wanted to show me a project he was working on.  We spent some time on that, which included looking for some information on the internet.  He initiated this, and we spent a couple of hours on this.  Then, though it was extremely late at this point, Luke started to hug and kiss me, etc. I didn't push him away, but I didn't respond as passionately as Luke would have liked.  He asked me what was wrong, and I said "I don't know, I'm just not in the mood, I guess."  He did not like this, apparently, because he looked distraught and said to me, "I am so angry right now that I'd like to put my fist through the wall.  I'm really struggling not to blow up."  I just stared at him in shock while he went on about this.  He went on to say that it's been a long time since anything physical was happening between us and that after the stretch of time when I worked all those extra hours, I should be practically ripping his clothes off--if I really cared about him, that is.  Then he started saying a bunch of stuff about how he wants me to make a commitment, he's waited long enough, etc., how I've been "stringing him along" (he often says this, also he talks about how he's like "a kept woman" and I should "do right by him".  Then he launched into how he's basically fed up.  This happens every few weeks, it seems, sometimes on a small scale, other times on a big scale.  Usually I get very VERY upset.  This time I decided I was just going to let it go--in other words, if he wanted it to be over, I would let that happen.  I tried not to argue with what he was saying, but I just didn't agree with some of it.  I pointed out that I didn't "string him along", that he knew what the situation was from day one (see background info, below).  He also complained that it's been a while since any intimate stuff happened between us.  I pointed out that I didn't see him very much for the last few months, and also told him that I felt uncomfortable with the situation as it is (again, see below).  I asked him what he wanted to do, if he wanted to basically take a break until I felt like I was ready to make a commitment to him.  I don't know if he understood what I was saying or what (he often seems to over-exaggerate what I'm saying or just outright misunderstand it).  He told me if that happened, he would hate me.  I was shocked.  He later said he didn't really mean that, what he really meant was that he'd be brokenhearted, but I'm not sure about that.  At another point in the conversation, he looked at me and said, "Wow, I am feeling so much hatred coming from you right now."  I was like, what the heck?  I told him I didn't hate him at all.  One of his recurring accusations towards me is that I hate him and wish he was dead.  At first, I thought that this was just another instance of that, but then I started to wonder if he was projecting his own hatred for me?  Then he went on a highly dramatic train, saying things like "I just want to be happy" and "this is the kind of birthday I get".  Then eventually I became upset and started crying, at which point his attitude changed and became loving.  The discussion went on to how we do in fact care about each other, and it wound up with him asking me to affirm my feelings for him.  I hate it when he does this--it comes across to me like a demand.  I feel like he thinks he can pull the string and have me say the words he feels like hearing.  Plus, I feel uncomfortable because I am still involved with another person, and at this point, I don't even know if I have those feelings for Luke, and I'm really mad that I left myself be pressured.  So this is the essence of the conversation.  In reality, it lasted two and a half hours, so there was a lot said that I'm leaving out, included a lot of stuff that was just the same thing over and over again.  But I thought he was dumping me, then by the end of the conversation, everything was exactly the same as it had been!  By the time I got home, I was angry from having to deal with another evening of stress, another evening of having my time drained by his concerns, and the next day, I was like, what was this really all about?  Was this just a freakout on his part, or a scheme designed to manipulate me?  It seems he gets some sort of satisfaction out of making me upset, because I think then he has some sort of proof that I care.

Then, the next day he sends me a message and sounds kind of distant, almost like he wasn't sure if I would appreciate the contact or not.  We had a brief conversation about light, non-personal stuff.  Then the day after, he sends me another message at 9 pm (he's sending messages instead of calling because his phone got cut off for the time being) and invites me over, saying "don't worry, I won't touch you".  I was out shopping and got home at 10 (it's not unusual for us to get together late) and responded that I just got home and had to do some stuff and eat, I'd contact him later on.  When I did contact him later, I said it was getting late and I wouldn't be able to come over, I'm sorry, and I asked when his phone would be on again.  He responded with, "Maybe never, enjoy your dinner, take care."  He's done this before, too, the formal-sounding message that sounds like it's saying "have a nice life".  But I can't take this stress anymore.  After the birthday incident, I felt like there was no way I could allow this relationship to continue.  Then I felt like I was softening (maybe a better word is weakening), but then his most recent message made me feel like I couldn't even decline his invitation without it being an issue, which I find completely unacceptable.  It seems like the only way to deal with him without compromising myself is just to be of a frame of mind where I just focus on what I want to do or not do, regardless of what he wants, which I don't think I can do without distancing myself emotionally.

Here's a little background on this situation (the full story is in my initial post: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=272409.0)  I am not in an exclusive relationship with Luke, though he would like it to be exclusive.  When I met Luke, I was still involved with "Grant" in a go-nowhere relationship that is more like a friendship at this point and who I had already told that if I met someone I wanted to go out with, I was just going to go.  Luke did not like this from the beginning and has relentlessly tried to push me into "committing" to him.  During this time, numerous times I decided that the only way I would really know if I could have a future with Luke would be to see him exclusively, but every time I thought about this, Luke would do or say something that would really give me pause.  During this time, I began to feel uncomfortable having an intimate relationship with Luke, and I felt that it would be better for us to take a step back until I could decide what I really wanted to do.  I didn't go into all this detail with Luke at the time (this was a number of months ago), I just said I felt uncomfortable with the way things were, and that I needed to be fully "available" before we proceeded with this side of the relationship.  Luke didn't like this at all, seeming to see it as me "choosing" Grant over him, and then weirdly seemed to forget all about the conversation within a few weeks (I mean this literally--I seriously don't think he remembers that I discussed this with him).  So I really do understand that this is counterproductive, but I just can't move forward with Luke unless I feel ready, and I told him that.  The hard part is, I am attracted to Luke, and I think that I shouldn't let my feelings for anyone else interfere with that--but at the same time, I think I wouldn't be holding back if that was the only thing bothering me.  A large part of it has to do with Luke.

The past few weeks are a perfect example of what Luke will say and do that gives me a huge amount of doubt:  He hits a pothole, worries that his tire was damaged, but won't get out of the car to check it.  A week later, he has a flat and has to get a new tire.  He goes out with a relative, gets stuck in traffic, runs out of gas, has to push his car, then calls me up complaining of chest pains. He goes out with a friend who only wants to go to bars where you buy girls expensive drinks in return for their "companionship" for the evening, and he blows so much money there he doesn't even want to tell me how much.  On the way back, he calls me and sounds a little too happy, but swears he's not drunk and can drive with no problem--but his car is overheating.  The next day we're supposed to go into the city at night, so I stress he needs to have gas and make sure the car isn't still overheating.  Then he gets a letter that his health insurance is being canceled because they say he should have renewed and didn't, and he's threatening suicide if this happens, and I talk to him on the phone for three hours from 1 am to 4 am trying to console him and help him see a ray of hope, which was very difficult.  Then the next day I have two one-hour conversations with him about the same thing (he's hopeful at this point), and another conversation later that night.  In between all these events, he had issues at work, bronchitis accompanied by difficulty breathing, a gall bladder attack, an incidence of intense and unexplained leg pain, and possibly another incident of chest pains.  So by the time his birthday rolled around, I was kind of annoyed by having so much of my time drained by his issues.  I started counting how many hours were spend on his issues-- the week leading up to his birthday, it seemed like almost every day was consumed with his stuff.  So I was feeling very drained of time and energy, and felt like I had distanced myself emotionally from him.  I've come to notice that my view of him as a potential life partner is negatively influenced by the amount of drama and problems in his life, because a lot of his problems I feel are caused by him, and I guess deep down it makes me feel like he's a bad choice.  One of the things he tried to "reason" with me about is that I've said I don't see him doing anything that would put him into a position where we could get married like he says he wants to.  He accuses me of putting the cart before the horse:  how can we make a marriage plan when I won't even make a commitment to him, it's backwards to talk about marriage before then.  But he's the one who brings it up!  He tells me he wants us to head towards marriage, but how am I supposed to take him seriously when he doesn't think about or plan for that future he supposedly wants?  I feel that if he really wanted that, he would be looking to show me that he's serious--but he doesn't do anything.  As a matter of fact, he has told me repeatedly, "I've done a lot to show you how much I care."  But really, he hasn't DONE anything but TALK.  He promises a lot, but doesn't really do much at all.  I really wonder if all the marriage talk is just to "lock me in".  He seems to want someone to be around him all the time.  I often wonder if I started hanging out there every night, if it would ever move beyond that.

Anyhow, I've written way more than I initially intended, I'm sorry for running on and on.  I mainly just wanted some input on the whole conversation birthday incident, if it sounded like a manipulation or what the hell was it.  Thank you!

[cosmonaut]

Hey lolli,

I'm sorry to hear about all of the struggles that you are having with Luke right now.  Relationships with a BPD partner can be very difficult.  They can and will have their ups and downs like you are experiencing.

I think what you are seeing in Luke is his overwhelming fear of abandonment.  The fact that you are still involved with another man is only pouring fuel on the fire of this fear.  Add in the long work hours, lack of physical intimacy, calling off dinner dates, etc. means he is feeling (emphasis on feeling, not actual) abandoned and this is what is causing him to lash out, sulk, rage, and other coping mechanisms.  It's not a healthy way for him to cope and these are very primitive coping mechanisms, but he is feeling genuinely afraid and hurt.  This is very real pain for him, and he is not doing it to play games with you.  It's important to realize that in a BPD relationship.  These emotions are very real for our partner, even as we have trouble understanding them.

If you want to continue your relationship with Luke, I would recommend having a look at the Lessons on the Staying board.  These are the tools that we need to use to make a relationship with a pwBPD work.  These will allow us to better communicate with our partner and also to diffuse situations when they are triggered.  These won't eliminate the instability and swings in the relationship, but they can definitely help.  Staying in a BPD relationship requires us to change too.  That said, please do not feel like this is in any way your fault.  It's not.  The fears and subsequent behaviors that Luke is showing are due to the disorder, not you.  There are some things you could do to help him, but it is not at all your fault that Luke is disordered.  You did not cause this.  That's very important to remember.

Keep posting, lolli.  We're here for you, and we can all understand how confusing and painful these relationships can sometimes be.

[lolli]

Cosmonaut, thank you very much for taking the time and trouble to reply to my excessively long post.  I understand what you are saying.

I am sure I am aggravating Luke's fears, but I don't know to do.  I can't make a commitment to him based on his say-so that all his negative feelings stem from the fact that I haven't made a commitment to him.  I understand that that contributes to it, but according to him, everything would be a heaven on earth if I'd only make that commitment.  But if I did that, I'd be making a commitment based not on how he's been, but on how he promises to be.  I just read in someone else's post on the boards here that it's unwise to base the relationship on how I imagine he could be--which is exactly what I would have to do.  I feel terrible that I make Luke feel so insecure and unhappy.  I feel like I've done something horrible.  Even when I wrote my post, I was convinced that anyone who read it would be appalled by how selfish and unfair I've been. I understand he has trouble seeing my side of things, but the long hours at work were necessary.  During that time, I was never out of communication with him at all and I told him to meet me when I took a dinner break, which would have been easy for him to do, but he never did and kept telling me to come over to his place and see him there, which was difficult for me to do.  And I never canceled any plans with him, the invitation I didn't take him up on came at the last minute with no foreplanning, which is how Luke mostly operates.  Only if we had talked about doing something specific that required planning does he ever discuss plans with me.  Usually what he does is call me at the last minute, like he did that night, expecting me to be available, and then get pissed off if I'm not.  He seems to want me to be at his disposal.  The lack of intimacy I can really understand, that is really the thing I feel most awful about.  But I can't hop into bed with Luke just because he's pissed off about it.  All I ever wanted was some time without pressure to examine my own feelings, but I feel like I never really got that.  I'm sorry if I sound like I'm defending myself, but I guess I feel horrible about everything and that I really am mistreating Luke just like he says I am.  While I know I didn't cause whatever emotional problems he brought to the relationship, I feel like I'm causing all the problems between us now.  Yet I still can't agree to something before I'm ready.

The reason I wondered if he was manipulating me is that I'm convinced he has done that at times.  For example, he used to accuse me of treating him in certain ways, then he'd switch to accusing me of other things (like, he used to accuse me of talking down to him, he has always accused me of treating him unfairly by not committing him), but I began to notice that the things he said repeatedly were the things I reacted the most strongly to, and the accusations I just brushed aside never got mentioned again.  So it's like when he couldn't get me to react the way he wanted, he switched to some other tactic.  I really think his initial anger on his birthday was his genuine reaction.  But a lot of the other stuff seemed designed to get reactions out of me.  Plus the way he did a total turn around when I became extremely upset made me wonder.  I realize now that as outrageously long as my post was (I'm so sorry!) that I didn't mention a lot of the things Luke said.  He said a lot of stuff like, "I can't believe this is happening to me again" (he told me a lot of his previous girlfriends were involved with others and ultimately broke it off with Luke to stay with these other men--I don't know if it's really true, since it doesn't really mesh with other stuff he's told me about his girlfriends), when I tried to talk about my feelings he laughed in this mocking way that sounded like he couldn't believe how ridiculous I was being he asked me if I was just pulling stuff out of the air just to have something to say, he also responded to some of what I was saying with sarcasm, saying things like "of course!" (what I mean is, at one point, I said something like, "I don't want to start screaming and yelling" and he said, "No, of course not!", but this discrediting of what I was saying seemed completely unwarranted.  He also said to me, "You will regret this one day, I promise you that!" but he didn't mean he was going to do anything to me, what he meant was that he's such a wonderful catch that if I didn't "choose" him (the word he always uses) that I would regret it later and it would be too late.

What makes this whole thing even harder is, the conversation ended on a positive note, but then he acts like he thinks I hate him for the next couple of days (he told me this), then we have a conversation after I get home from my evening with a friend where he accuses me of really being on a date and having sex all night long while he's home alone, he cools off and ultimately talks to me like nothing ever happened.  At one point, he said that he doesn't want me to hate him.  I said I absolutely do not hate him, and I don't want him to hate me.  He said he could never hate me.  I said, you told me you would hate me.  Then he said, "oh, that's just an expression"!

I can't deal with the stress of the whole situation anymore.  While I was working the long hours, I felt a certain amount of peace amid all the turmoil.  But now that that's over, I feel an overwhelming sense of anxiety and stress, and I absolutely CAN'T take it anymore.  I often have a knot in my stomach or in my chest, and it's just getting worse.  Last night, while I was out with my friend, towards the end of the evening my stress level was becoming physical (in anticipation of the conversation I imagined I would probably have with Luke when I talked to him about not spending the evening with him).  I can't can't can't handle this anymore, I feel like if I try to eventually I will become sick from it.  I never wanted to hurt him.  But am so unhappy from all the stress I am experiencing--he wants, and usually acts, like I'm his girlfriend, but I am not his girlfriend and the stress from this conflict of what he wants versus what I can offer right now is completely overwhelming me and making me sick.  I feel like it's just not working for either of us the way things are, and I just cannot make that commitment to him that wants or continue to experience all this stress. 

I'm sorry for such a long reply.

[cosmonaut]

I am sure I am aggravating Luke's fears, but I don't know to do.  I can't make a commitment to him based on his say-so that all his negative feelings stem from the fact that I haven't made a commitment to him.  I understand that that contributes to it, but according to him, everything would be a heaven on earth if I'd only make that commitment.  But if I did that, I'd be making a commitment based not on how he's been, but on how he promises to be.  I just read in someone else's post on the boards here that it's unwise to base the relationship on how I imagine he could be--which is exactly what I would have to do.  I feel terrible that I make Luke feel so insecure and unhappy.  I feel like I've done something horrible.  Even when I wrote my post, I was convinced that anyone who read it would be appalled by how selfish and unfair I've been. I understand he has trouble seeing my side of things, but the long hours at work were necessary.  During that time, I was never out of communication with him at all and I told him to meet me when I took a dinner break, which would have been easy for him to do, but he never did and kept telling me to come over to his place and see him there, which was difficult for me to do.  And I never canceled any plans with him, the invitation I didn't take him up on came at the last minute with no foreplanning, which is how Luke mostly operates.  Only if we had talked about doing something specific that required planning does he ever discuss plans with me.  Usually what he does is call me at the last minute, like he did that night, expecting me to be available, and then get pissed off if I'm not.  He seems to want me to be at his disposal.  The lack of intimacy I can really understand, that is really the thing I feel most awful about.  But I can't hop into bed with Luke just because he's pissed off about it.  All I ever wanted was some time without pressure to examine my own feelings, but I feel like I never really got that.  I'm sorry if I sound like I'm defending myself, but I guess I feel horrible about everything and that I really am mistreating Luke just like he says I am.  While I know I didn't cause whatever emotional problems he brought to the relationship, I feel like I'm causing all the problems between us now.  Yet I still can't agree to something before I'm ready.

I'm really sorry if it sounded like I was blaming you, lolli.  That wasn't my intention, and I don't think you are wrong at all.  I was trying to point out the way that Luke is seeing the situation, but I didn't intend to blame you.  My apologies for that.  I also am not saying that Luke's feelings are "right" - just that these are the way that he feels.  And those feelings are very real for him.  Many of these feelings are not rational - they are a product of his disordered thinking and the deep shame and brokenness that he feels inside himself.  It is not in any way your fault he feels this way.  Not at all.  This is the disorder.  And to be honest, it's not Luke's fault either.  He never chose to have this disorder, and I'm sure that he would choose not to have it if he could.  So, I don't mean to blame anyone.  It sounds like you have tried to be very understanding and caring towards Luke, and you are struggling to understand why he isn't able to return the same.  Unfortunately, when Luke is triggered he isn't able to see much besides his own pain.  His emotions are so overwhelming, and he feels things so acutely that his overpowering emotions tend to cloud out everything else.  While he may be able to relate to you much better when he's not triggered, he just isn't able when his fears are activated.  And it's not your fault that his fears have been activated.  I mentioned that there are things that you can do to help him with these fears, but you didn't cause them.  So, please don't be hard on yourself about that.  I know that a BPD relationship can be extremely painful and far too often we can end up blaming ourselves for things that we are not responsible for.  I was exactly the same.  So try not to be hard on yourself, lolli.  You are doing the best you can in a very difficult and confusing relationship.  I really do understand.

I can't deal with the stress of the whole situation anymore.  While I was working the long hours, I felt a certain amount of peace amid all the turmoil.  But now that that's over, I feel an overwhelming sense of anxiety and stress, and I absolutely CAN'T take it anymore.  I often have a knot in my stomach or in my chest, and it's just getting worse.  Last night, while I was out with my friend, towards the end of the evening my stress level was becoming physical (in anticipation of the conversation I imagined I would probably have with Luke when I talked to him about not spending the evening with him).  I can't can't can't handle this anymore, I feel like if I try to eventually I will become sick from it.  I never wanted to hurt him.  But am so unhappy from all the stress I am experiencing--he wants, and usually acts, like I'm his girlfriend, but I am not his girlfriend and the stress from this conflict of what he wants versus what I can offer right now is completely overwhelming me and making me sick.  I feel like it's just not working for either of us the way things are, and I just cannot make that commitment to him that wants or continue to experience all this stress. 

I think what you are saying above is critically important, lolli.  It's very important to know what we need and what we are willing to accept in our relationships.  There is absolutely nothing wrong with feeling the way that you do.  BPD relationships are hard, even under the best of circumstances.  They will never be a "normal" relationship, and they do require that we be very active.  We can never sit back or coast along once things become comfortable.  They will never be a 50:50 relationship.  That's not to say I think that you should leave Luke.  This is an intensely personal decision that only you can make.  There are many reasons that people decide to remain in a BPD relationship, and pwBPD can have a truly wonderful set of qualities.  They can be incredibly warm, funny, sensitive, and fun.  They are human just like all of us and are a mixture of both good and bad.  I can completely understand if you want to continue your relationship with Luke, and I would completely support you.  Just as I would if you choose not to do so.  There is no right or wrong answer.  The main thing is that we have to agree to the relationship with our eyes open.  And I think that you are seeing that this is going to be a relationship that will take constant work.  It will.  Luke, like all pwBPD, has a unique set of needs in relationships and he has a disorder that will impact the way in which he is able to relate to you.  There is nothing that you can do to change this, and it would be a mistake to believe that this will change in the relationship.  It won't.  The best that we can do is to use the tools to make the relationship as functional as possible, and accept that no matter how hard we try there will still be difficult times.  We also need to remember that this is not our fault.  That is so, so important.  It's not our fault.

[lolli]

Cosmo, thank you very much for your all your support.  I know you weren't trying to blame me.  It's just the way I feel I guess.  It's very hard for me not to feel like I've done something wrong or am mistreating Luke.  This is the way he seems to see the situation, or at least that's what he tells me.  I don't know if he really believes that or if it's a manipulation on his part.  The reason why I say that is this: he has said conflicting things on the subject.  To my face, he will say that I'm being unfair to him, that I'm keeping him in an unfair position.  He's used phrases like, I should "do right by him", that he's like a "kept man" (and sometimes it's been a "kept woman", that I'm wasting his time and stringing him along, and he'll use the fact that Grant (the "other guy" dated me for a long time and it never led to marriage to try to demonstrate to me how unfair what I'm (supposedly) doing to him is.  But he's also told me that when he's talked about me to other people, he says only the nicest things about me.  So I'm really not sure if these negative things he says are what he really feels or if he's saying this stuff to try to get me to do what he wants (make a commitment to him).  But even though in my mind I don't believe I'm doing these things, when he says them to me I feel as though I'm doing something wrong, because I suppose I'm reacting to how he feels (or how he says he feels).  I am really having a very difficult time laying it out for him what I'm comfortable with and what I'm not comfortable with, without feeling guilty or bad about it, or expecting there to be huge negative ramifications from it.

For instance, the other day, I mentioned to him that the telephone message he left me sounded a little non-nice.  This led from one thing to another and turned into HUGE argument that ended with him saying "I'm DONE with you!" and me answering with curse words.  He called back later and everything became alright, but I believe the argument really was caused by me saying that something he said bothered me--but he couldn't seem to see it that way at all. Instead, he sees it as me getting angry that he ran into his exgirlfriend.  He seems to have a real problem with me ever telling him I didn't like something he said or did.  So I guess since that's not a possibility in his mind, he had to decide it was about the exgirlfriend, it's the only thing he could fathom.  But during the argument when I said something in response to what he was saying, I was called argumentative, I was told that I have to create a conflict all the time because I just love conflict, and that no matter what he says, I just understand it however I want.  At one point, I said, "Why is it that when you say something to me, you're expressing your feelings, and when I say something to you, I'm being argumentative?", and he answered, "That doesn't even make any sense."  And last night he asked me if I was going to go to his place for the evening, and I said I didn't know because I had a bad headache that I was trying to get rid of.  This was in a text--I got no response whatsoever for an hour and a half, and only then because I texted him.  Then the conversation on his part was very aloof and cold, and when I tried to playfully get him to pay a little more attention to the conversation, I got "What is your problem now?"  He denied that anything was wrong, but I believe that he got mad because he thought I wasn't going to go over there, even though I never even said that.  I feel like if I say no to him, it becomes a big issue, not always but very often.

Now the new issue will be tonight.  He wants to me to come with him to his father's house since it's his birthday.  I feel uncomfortable with this.  I told him I thought it would be more appropriate for him to spend the evening with his dad, and I can go with him another time.  This was not well-received.  I didn't tell him that I also feel uncomfortable going because I'm not his girlfriend.  That would turn into a big fiasco.  Some months ago, he wanted me to go to an event at his sister's home.  At the time, I hadn't known him very long at all, and I was worried that if I went to this event that it might be viewed as taking a step forward that I didn't want to take at the time--it's very hard for me to put into words my hesitation at the time, but what happened after hopefully will make it clear.  After being at this event, his siblings seemed to think I was his regular girlfriend and they invited me to holiday get togethers and when I didn't go, they kept him asking him why (this is what he says, anyway) and now he has to explain why I'm not showing up with him.  So that is EXACTLY what I DIDN'T want to happen.  Going to a family thing with him seemed to establish me as his girlfriend.  So now he wants me to meet his father.  I feel ridiculous saying no, but at the same time, I feeling extremely uncomfortable with this, as though I were being tricked into something (because I think he will turn around later and use this against me somehow, which is what I think he did with the family event I went to--before I went, he said "it's nothing, no big deal", but then later, it was a big deal because how come I'm not going to all the other family things?).  Yet I felt like I had to agree to go, because I had already committed the heinous sins of arguing with him the other day and not seeing him yesterday.  In the moment, I feel like I've done something horribly wrong and I have to agree to this father meeting otherwise he'll dump me for being so ungiving.  But in my head, there seems to be something seriously wrong with getting the cold shoulder for having a headache.

This is a major problem, because I feel like a prisoner.   

[lolli]

I'm sorry to be so long-winded, but I'm just very distraught and I guess I need to let all this out.  I don't even understand why this is all so difficult really.  When I read other people's posts, it seems so clear that the people they're dealing with are the ones who seem to be creating the problems.  And I can see that the people writing the posts are mistaken in thinking that they did something wrong in whatever situation they're talking about.  And even though they, like me, say that they felt responsible for the conflict/problem/issue that they're writing about, I still can't get past my own similiar feelings.  In other words, what goes on in my head is something like, yes, clearly this person did nothing wrong, even though they think they did; but I really do deserve this anger/these complaints/this guilt.  When I read the FOG page, I think to myself, yes, but this applies only to unjustified FOG (because mine is justified).

And what makes everything worse is that some of the things other people write about their significant others are things Luke says about me!  I know he feels like I keep him somewhat at a distance.  That's why I took a whole bunch of online quizzes for BPD, but didn't rate on any of them.  And even though I see person after person on this forum say they started to think they had a problem, still it seems clear to me that it isn't true in their case, but might very well be in mine.  Everyone else seems to have no doubts about their feelings for their SO, only whether they can deal with the situation or not; I feel like I'm the only one that's iffy on it.  I care for him very much, but I feel like everything that happens makes it impossible for me to really know how deep my feelings run.  It's like I don't have a chance to really think about how I feel because I'm always worried about he feels.  I've noticed that most of our conversations, when they're not about objective things (like movies or whatever) center on him.  I realized that I don't tell him as much as I might tell other people about my day to day life, and I wondered why.  Then I realized that it's largely because he's always talking about himself.  Like, he might start a conversation by talking about some negative thing that happened during the day, and then of course that's what i'm talking about too.  I also wonder if part of the reason I'm holding back is that deep down maybe I'm seeing things i don't like.  But all this worry and preoccupation with his concerns is taking a toll on my life and I'm neglecting things that are important to me.  For instance, I want to apply to a college program.  I felt overwhelmed with everything concerning the application process (I've been to college already, and it didn't seem like it was an elaborate a process to apply as it is for this program), and it doesn't help to have him monopolizing my time and attention and NEVER EVER mention it as if he doesn't even remember or care that it's something I want to do.  I mean, just this past week alone I had at least three days of crying and stress because of him.  Even now, I've been up all night because I'm stressed out because of this!

I often feel like I'm being manipulated, even if it's not being done on purpose.  Like the way I felt last night.  He reacts negatively to me having a headache and giving him a "not sure yet" on whether or not we were getting together, so I feel like I've done something wrong, then when I try to cajole him into a conversation he reacts negatively to what i'm saying, again making me feel not only like I'm doing something wrong but that there's something wrong with me, then he reacts like I'm really being unreasonable, while at the same time ignoring my feelings and what I was talking about--then abruptly switches to asking me if I'm going with him to his dad's.  So after just being treated like my bad behavior and personality problems are jeopardizing his feelings for and tolerance of me, I'm hit with this questions which in the moment I felt like I had to answer yes to.  So I can't say all this was a clever scheme, but I still feel like I was manipulated, even if that wasn't his aim.

But there are times I think he is doing it on purpose:  When I first met him, he had already ended a relationship with a past girlfriend, although he remained friendly with her.  He said basically she was emotionally unstable, and unrealiable, and he tried to have a relationship with her twice and she would vanish for months at a time, and he couldn't deal with it anymore.  Then, during the friendly phase, he suspected she stole some prescription medicine from him, but he wasn't sure (this happened after I met him).  Then she screwed him out of several hundred dollrs, and then he said he didn't even want to be friends with her anymore.  BUT... .he recently tried to tell me that I should make him my one and only because after all, he got rid of the exgirlfriend when I came along because he thought it wouldn't be right to have another girl around!

I'm sorry, I think I'm just rambling now.  Thanks for listening.

[cosmonaut]

I'm sorry to hear that this relationship continues to be such a stressful one for you.  I can hear how distressing this is in your words.  I hope that you can find some peace with it soon, no matter what you decide.  I do think that making a decision one way or the other might help you.  Perhaps further debating the relationship isn't helpful.  I'm just putting that out there to think about.  You have to ultimately do what is best for you, and not Luke.  You can't make an important decision about your life and future based entirely on his feelings and needs.  I would try and keep the focus on yourself and what you need and what you feel.

I do think that Luke will continue to be triggered by the lack of a commitment from you as long as there is no decision (he hears abandonment, and remember that he needs attachment to be "whole".  In some ways, this is bigger than BPD, because I think there are some mixed signals being given and anyone might feel a bit confused as to where things stand.  I realize this is because you feel conflicted about pursuing the relationship, but I just want to point that out.  I'm not in any way judging you for that, either.  You have clear reasons why you feel conflicted.  Committing to him may soothe him, but there will inevitably be further triggers to come.  This is something you will need to be prepared to handle if you decide to commit to him.  You said that you care deeply about him, so maybe this is something you want to pursue.  Only you can decide.  It might be a good idea to try and break out of this limbo, however, since it's proving to be very distressing for you.  There's no right or wrong answer.  You will have to trust your heart to tell you.  I might go with whichever I'm leaning towards, even if I'm not 100%.  What do you think?

Also, please don't feel badly at all for taking as much space as you need to express yourself.  You have a lot going on, and this is a confusing time.  I completely understand.  It's a big decision.  Keep posting and let us support you.  We're with you no matter how you want to proceed.

[lolli]

Cosmo, thank you again for your time and trouble.  Yes, I agree that being in limbo is creating a lot of stress for both me and him.  I also agree that there are some mixed signals.  But I also think he aggravates the situation.  Case in point, last night:  He invited me over.  I told him I'd call him after I finished what I was doing.  When I was done, I called him and texted and got no response for an hour and a half.  Given the time it was at that point, it seemed a little unusual.  I thought he might have fallen asleep (it wasn't early enough that it seemed reasonable that he might have gone out and/or done something else).  So I decided to go over to his place (he lives nearby) and see what happened.  He had fallen asleep but it made him happy that I had come by.  He went on about how only someone who really cares about him would bother to do that, etc., making much of it, saying that I was worried that something had happened to him, that I was worried that he was dead (I did not think this, nor did I say this--I just wanted to see if he fell asleep, or if his phone got turned off (he forgets to pay the bill) or what.  Later, when I wanted to leave, he asked me to stay the night.  I told him I didn't want to stay over last night (see the related conversation, mentioned below).  He then accused me of sending him mixed signals, because I was acting like I loved him by stopping by to find out what happened to him and then acting like I didn't care about him at all (he usually says that I hate him and wish he were dead) by not staying overnight.  But he's the one who interprets these things in this extreme way.  I don't think stopping by is proof positive that I love him, and I don't think not wanting to stay the night is proof that I don't love him.  He just sees it this way.

I am not comfortable dating Luke while I'm still involved with Grant.  I shouldn't feel that way--this has to do with my relationship with Grant--short version, I told him many times if I met someone I wanted to date, I was just going to go ahead and do it, and Grant said okay, he understood, but now feels that if I date someone without telling him that it's "cheating"--but I feel like I already warned him of this, so it makes no sense to me, except that Grant would by hurt if I have a "relationship" with anyone else.  However, I feel like after dating someone for years WITH the promise of marriage, but the marriage never coming, I should be able to do whatever I want at this point.  But I don't want to hurt Grant, and he would feel hurt, and furthermore he's having serious health issues right now--so that's where I'm at right now with that.  So for me, the issue is rather complicated. I've felt like I've been stuck in a go-nowhere sexless relationship (first my fault, then his, always thought we could change the situation but got little cooperation)--I've felt for a long time that if I want more in my life I'd have to break it off with Grant, but I don't know if I feel ready to make that break yet.  I don't know if I should force myself to break it off with him just because Luke wants that.  I feel like that's something I should do when I'm ready and because it's what I want, not under duress.  So this week I came to the realization that it will be impossible for me to understand how I really feel and what I really what if Luke's going to be hammering at me every time I see or speak to him.   What I feel like I really need is for Luke to back off so I can think about what I want and how I feel, instead of how he feels and what he wants.  But I had no idea what I was going to say, and I really felt like he was going to blow his stack and dump me altogether.  Which in itself should be a red flag.

So when I went over there last night, I really didn't expect that I would say anything then, but an opportunity seemed to present itself.  I told him flat out (again) that the reason I feel uncomfortable having a sexual relationship with him is that I'm still invovled with Grant.  I told him that I know I shouldn't feel that way but I do, and I need to really think about what I wanted, not him/them.  He told me he told me that already.  He acknowledged that he puts a lot of pressure on me (although he minimized it considerably).  I told him when he does that, it makes it impossible for me to think about what I want, although I know he doesn't mean for that to happen I do understand how he feels.  He seemed to listen and understand all this.  I said a few more things after this, but this was the main thing discussed.  So I didn't go as far as I originally wanted to (I really wanted to tell him there can't be anything romantic relationship between us while I'm invovled with someone else, it just isn't working), but I thought he listened very well and seemed to understand and accept it.

Then, a while later, when I said I wanted to get going, he wanted me to stay and asked me to stay the night.  I told him I didn't want to stay tonight.  He got pissed off.  I said, didn't you listen to anything I said?  He said, yes, but spending the night is not the same as having sex with him, why can't I spend the night?  I didn't even know what to say to this.  Then it looked like it was heading toward the usual I'm-leaving-so-he-starts-a-fight scenario.  The last few of these got me home at 6 am.  It was during this portion of the evening that he complained about the "mixed signals" of me stopping by yet still wanting to leave.  The only thing that saved this from turning into the usual big blowup is that I actually picked up my jacket to leave, but didn't immediately, saying I didn't want to leave him upset.  I also didn't argue back on most of what he was saying, mostly because I was just fed up and didn't want to become all upset myself.  Then eventually he seemed to calm down, but he still says threatening/accusatory things to me (not the most accurate terms, but the best I can come up with right now):  You need to make a decision soon!  Stop putting me through this! Just remember when you choose him, because I already know you will, that I was ready to give you everything he wouldn't!

I HATE that!  I already told him I needed to make a decision, he doesn't have to tell me!  It's like he has to emphasize that he's the victim.  Yet if I even reference anything he did that I didn't like for any reason, then I'm making hiim out to be "The Villain" and he's not a bad person, etc.  And, I realize that all this is hard on him, but he acts like I hunted him down and toyed with him from the beginning.  I didn't even want to go date him at first, not because I didn't like him but because I was invovled with someone else and I didn't know him well enough to know if I wanted to date him! But he laid a bunch of guilt-pity crap on me which I seriously suspect was a manipulation, and I fell for it and  wound up getting involved with him before I was really ready to.  Then, the last part, about how I'll regret not "choosing" him, how his past girlfriends didn't "choose" him, they all regretted it and came running back, so will I--I don't even know if this is true of his past girlfriends, it doesn't all quite jibe with the other stuff he told me about them; I can't take on the responsibiilty of what they did or did not do to him; I view the "you'll regret it" as a threat, like, he's trying to frighten me into "choosing" him, and I don't appreciate that.  He already tells me about how his exgirlfriend is making plays for him, as well as other people--he's always done this.  He's constantly threatening me with losing him, even from the very beginning he did this.  Plus I feel like he exploits the fact that I want a husband and family and uses that against me.  I'm in my forties and even though I can still have children as of today, I don't know how much time I really have left and if it would st some point become unwise to have a child even if I still technically can.  So when he pressures me and says out of nowhere "let's make a baby right now", it echoes my own fears that it might never happen for me, but at the same time, how can I really feel comfortable with this "offer"?  It's like he's trying to get me to be with him by running a three-fold campaign consisting of sweet talk, anger and fear in frequent and unpredictable rotation. Practically every time we're together, at some point, I have to hear about how I'm not giving him what he wants, how I'm failing as a girlfriend, etc.  It makes me feel like crap.

[cosmonaut]

There's a lot of important realizations in this last post, lolli.  That's important.  I think you are starting to really get in touch with how you feel.

Perhaps the first thing is to resolve your relationship with Grant.  Maybe you are getting ahead of yourself with the relationship with Luke while you are still in a relationship with Grant.  It does sound like there are significant complications with Grant and you aren't happy.  But, it also sounds like you aren't ready to leave.  Maybe you aren't ready to date again yet.  That's OK.  Perhaps you are not ready to end things with Grant.  Only you can say.  It's important not to make this all about Grant and his feelings, however.  I'm not saying to not consider his feelings at all, but it's not a recipe for anyone's well being to remain in a relationship if you've already left in spirit.  If you want to remain with Grant then you both will have to make a commitment to fix the relationship, because it seems you both feel that it's not working.  Of course, you can only do your part, and you will have to see if he will do his.  What do you think about that idea?  How would you feel about ending the relationship if you knew it wouldn't affect Grant?  How does the thought of spending the rest of your life with Grant feel to you?

It also seems that perhaps you are having trouble accepting that Luke really does have a disorder.  This is very common here, because it's hard to really internalize that our partner sees the world in a very different way that we do.  Luke lives in a world where he needs attachment.  He needs to have someone else that he can fuse with in order to be "whole".  The ambiguity about this attachment is causing him distress.  We've already talked about how anyone would feel confused in the current situation, but this is significantly amplified by his disorder.  He wants your attachment and he is even willing to have a child with you in a very rash way to try and secure it.  This is not uncommon with BPD.  It is a disorder the features much impulsivity and clinging.  This is hard for us to understand because we don't see the world in this way.  This is not our reality.  And I think you are finding it very confusing.  That's natural.  All of us here can relate.  If you want to make a go of a relationship to Luke, you will have to come to acceptance of this fact, however.  He will not be able to see the world as you do.  He has special needs in a relationship.  Does that make sense?  I know it's hard.  I went through the same thing with my ex.  So many of her thoughts and behaviors just didn't make sense to me.  They were based on a very different outlook than mine.  She was experiencing the relationship differently.

I think you are making progress here, lolli.  Keep going.  You have some solid realizations, and I think you are able to articulate much of the conflict that you are feeling.  Keep working through that.