How to want to have sex

[vortex of confusion]

My BPD Wife says she will do anything to be attractive to me, and to please me, and won't reject me.  The problem is her behavior toward me and her actions reject me by killing any vulnerability or intimacy I might feel before it can begin.

I know that I have tried all sorts of things but like you, the rejection seems to kill any and all vulnerability. It makes it very difficult to enjoy certain things when the sole focus is on my husband's pleasure. If I tried to get pleasure, he would inevitably get upset because I wasn't reacting correctly. Heck, even "could you move a little this way" might lead to things going sour because he took my attempts at normal communication as some kind of slight against him. Um, what he was doing was hurting so I was simply asking him to make adjustments. I wasn't criticizing at all. So, I learned to take care of his needs and let him do whatever he wanted without complaining or saying anything to make the experience more pleasurable for both of us.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Notwendy]

VOC, that is frustrating that your H chose to withold and then explain it as doing something nice for you. Ugh. as if he knows what you want instead of asking. I also get that asking for something in an intimate moment is seen as criticism. I've been raged at for this and it is pretty scary in the moment. I also did as you did, cooked, cleaned, was always available- trying so hard to be that good wife, but it burned me out emotionally.

Still, most people on this thread seem to have two choices, albeit neither of them great if there is so much emotional pain between two people. I assume people here are working on the relationship- hoping to "stop the bleeding" and IMHO of the two choices, I see witholding, or not participating in sex when the other partner wants a physical relationship, as the most destructive to the relationship of the two. Why? because in the long run, I think sex is a glue between two people and if the bridge of communication is broken, I would be hesitant to break another bridge. I realized that even if talking could not connect us,( as it inevitably led to those circular arguments) sex was a better connection for my H than to not have it, even if it was "taking it for the team". I felt that breaking that connection was going too far and would lead to more emotional pain between us.

Given the choice between having sex without desire, and not having it, I think the best odds of repair lie with trying to preserve the physical aspect of the relationship if it is possible to do so. This doesn't mean being a dormat all the time and not ever saying no, but it means attempting to maintain regular contact. That's just my opinion, I am sure there are others.

[ColdEthyl]

This is a subject I struggle with as well... .and I do not really have an answer, though I have had some movement.

My H and I have been married 2 years together for 6.  The sex in the beginning was really really good. It started to decline after the first year to once every few months now.

I'm not exactly sure what his problem is, but a lot of it has to do with how he thinks. He *thinks* he has ED, though he won't go to the doctor. He will say things like I need to be more aggressive... .but when I am I'm treating him "like a piece of meat". The last time I tried to engage him, I started to pleasure myself in front of him... .he watched... .his body reacted... .but he did nothing. He said he really liked that and he will be all over it tomorrow (he wasn't) but the way he said it... .I could tell he's nervous. He's so nervous about 'failing' as he sees it, he just doesn't want to try.

For me, it gets to the point where I keep being aggressive (which makes me very uncomfortable, but I'm trying), only to start feeling like I'm trying to rape him. He looks at me so scared... .I just don't know. I don't even know how it got this bad.

There was a time where this was easy... .and normal... .

[Ceruleanblue]

I agree with Formflier on knowing your partner's love language. It's possible that you are loving them the way you want to be, instead of what makes them feel loved.

[vortex of confusion]

Still, most people on this thread seem to have two choices, albeit neither of them great if there is so much emotional pain between two people. I assume people here are working on the relationship- hoping to "stop the bleeding" and IMHO of the two choices, I see witholding, or not participating in sex when the other partner wants a physical relationship, as the most destructive to the relationship of the two. Why? because in the long run, I think sex is a glue between two people and if the bridge of communication is broken, I would be hesitant to break another bridge. I realized that even if talking could not connect us,( as it inevitably led to those circular arguments) sex was a better connection for my H than to not have it, even if it was "taking it for the team". I felt that breaking that connection was going too far and would lead to more emotional pain between us.

At one point in time, I would have completely agreed with you. I know that I was not able to make a lot of progress in my own healing until I gave myself the permission to set a boundary around sex and not allow myself to be pressured, bullied, or otherwise manipulated into having sex with my spouse. Even within marriage, I think it is important for a person to be able to say NO to sex without being punished for it. Some of the things that my husband has done to me have bordered on sexual abuse. Some people may not agree with that. I think it is abusive to push your wife to have sex with somebody else and then come home and tell him about it because that is the only way that my husband could get interested there for a while.

I think that anybody that has been put in a position where sex was used to manipulate, punish, or somehow get what they wanted has a right to say NO. This goes for male or female. If the men in this thread have had their wives use sex as a manipulation took, then I think it makes perfect sense for the guys to NOT want sex with a spouse. Just like I felt like I was sexually used, abused, and exploited. There was a period of time where I refused to have sex with my husband. It wasn't to punish him. My refusal to have sex with him was about me trying to get my head straight. It was about me needing the space to heal. Having my husband be incapable of having sex with me without me calling some other guy's name or giving him details of certain things was a bit traumatic for me.

I think it is perfectly okay for a spouse to say, "I can't have sex with you under these conditions."

Given the choice between having sex without desire, and not having it, I think the best odds of repair lie with trying to preserve the physical aspect of the relationship if it is possible to do so. This doesn't mean being a dormat all the time and not ever saying no, but it means attempting to maintain regular contact. That's just my opinion, I am sure there are others.

In some situations, this is probably true. For me, repair wasn't possible until I set some boundaries and took a break from having sex all together. To add a bit of context, I think the longest that I went was maybe three months. And, I also have to take STD's into consideration. Asking somebody to maintain regular sexual contact with a sex addict or somebody that has not been completely faithful is dangerous. My former sponsor and my trauma coach have both counseled me to NOT have sex with my husband until we can both get tested for STD's.

Before any kind of repair can begin, an atmosphere of safety must be established. If a person isn't safe (physically or emotionally), then having sex with a partner could be very traumatic.

[Hmcbart]

Zak- you are correct, we are on opposite ends of the topic. I have actually looked for medications or herbal supplements that will lower my sex drive. I'm in my 40's but feel like I have the hormones of a teenager.

My biggest issue is not just being told no. I can deal with no. I understand no. I understand that there are times when people just aren't in the mood. I get it, it's normal. It's the way I get told no. To be turned down in a way that makes your feel completely undesired. When it comes out sounding like you are not worthy of sex. That's the part that gets to you.

Sadly it took me 20 years to finally speak up. And I got slapped down for doing so. I also agree it's easier to DIY, just to get it out of the way. It makes it more difficult when the stars align perfectly and she's in the mood. But I have stopped asking for it. I know that she is not going to come to me for it, that's just not something she will do.

I actually envy you Zak. I wish I didn't want to have sex. More than anything in the world if I could get ride of that feeling towards her, I'd be perfectly happy yo do so. None of the herbal things I've tried have worked.

I've never cheated even though I've had more than enough opportunity to do so. She did find the herbal things I was taking (normal over the counter stuff nothing illegal). She was very upset that I would resort to that. I thought that would be an awakening for her but nope. Still nothing.

I started therapy to try and figure out if I was a sex addict. Turns out, I'm pretty normal. I don't want yo be normal, I want to have no sexual drive or desire for her. It only causes more hurt on my part.

[ZakBPD]

I am so glad that I brought this up.  This has been a really wonderful discussion.  I have gotten something out of what everyone has said and really appreciate the honesty and vulnerability displayed by sharing these private details about your experiences.  Nice  to hear that other guys are dealing with this (nice for me... .not that I am glad you are dealing with it).  It has felt bad as usually it is the guy that is interested and the woman that isn't always up for it.  I am great at the DIY... .desire is not a problem.  Just not "with a grenade" as one poster put it (loved that!).

I love my wife and feel bad for her that she feels this awful so much of the time.  And I feel guilty that I can't just look past the dysregulation and stay the course.  I don't really think we would have much negativity in the bedroom... .I'm not really worried about that because she is very loving and gentle when she is in a good place.  I just need to get to the place of wanting to go to the bedroom.  Worse case scenario, I can do the dishes if need be (great analogy, VOC!) until I get to a place of desire.

[Love Is Not Enough]

Keep posting here and start working the tools ===>

Hopefully in time you will start experiencing more time between dysregulations allowing you enough time to feel closer to her. Then things may happen more naturally and take their course. Let us know how it goes and you can get advice how to adjust your approach. It takes awhile, but then it becomes automatic.

[ColdEthyl]

Zak- you are correct, we are on opposite ends of the topic. I have actually looked for medications or herbal supplements that will lower my sex drive. I'm in my 40's but feel like I have the hormones of a teenager.

My biggest issue is not just being told no. I can deal with no. I understand no. I understand that there are times when people just aren't in the mood. I get it, it's normal. It's the way I get told no. To be turned down in a way that makes your feel completely undesired. When it comes out sounding like you are not worthy of sex. That's the part that gets to you.

Sadly it took me 20 years to finally speak up. And I got slapped down for doing so. I also agree it's easier to DIY, just to get it out of the way. It makes it more difficult when the stars align perfectly and she's in the mood. But I have stopped asking for it. I know that she is not going to come to me for it, that's just not something she will do.

I actually envy you Zak. I wish I didn't want to have sex. More than anything in the world if I could get ride of that feeling towards her, I'd be perfectly happy yo do so. None of the herbal things I've tried have worked.

I've never cheated even though I've had more than enough opportunity to do so. She did find the herbal things I was taking (normal over the counter stuff nothing illegal). She was very upset that I would resort to that. I thought that would be an awakening for her but nope. Still nothing.

I started therapy to try and figure out if I was a sex addict. Turns out, I'm pretty normal. I don't want yo be normal, I want to have no sexual drive or desire for her. It only causes more hurt on my part.

I can relate to that. My H had told me if he never had sex again he would die happy. It's a lot different of a tune he was singing when we first got together. So, now I'm the one stuck wishing I didn't want sex either so I wouldn't be constantly trying to fix our sexual life, making him feel uncomfortable.

I agree with Formflier on knowing your partner's love language. It's possible that you are loving them the way you want to be, instead of what makes them feel loved.

I would agree with that, except for me in my case, I am doing exactly what he told me he needed from me, only to be told it's wrong. Everything I do is wrong. Aggressive? Wrong. Not aggressive? Wrong. Initiate? Wrong. Don't initiate? Wrong. More foreplay? Wrong. Less? Wrong. Roleplaying? Wrong. Porn? Wrong. Different locations? Wrong.

I could keep going, but i think the idea is there.

Oh yeah... .now my lack of interest, which is because I'm tired of being turned down and blamed for not meeting whatever invisible guideline he has for me, is my fault. Certainly, I'm cheating.

I'm still in shell shock in how our sex life immediately after our marriage went to the shi@@er. It makes me wonder if he was ever sexually attracted to me at all, just going through the motions to get his claws in?

That's frustration talking. I logically know it's not true, but that doesn't stop the hurt.

[Wrongturn1]

I agree with Formflier on knowing your partner's love language. It's possible that you are loving them the way you want to be, instead of what makes them feel loved.

I disagree about the "love languages" statements.  In my interpretation, the crucial premise of the love languages book is that one partner can fundamentally transform the relationship by tuning into the other partner's needs and dealing with the other partner in ways that address those needs. 

When one partner has BPD, that's not the way it actually works.  While you might be able to make some marginal improvements in your relationship with a BPD partner, the other person still has BPD, and no amount of speaking their "love language" will cure that.  The BPD partner will still have massive fear of abandonment, mistrust, paranoia, etc., and all of these things make intimate relationships EXTREMELY difficult.  So even if you, the non, implement the principles of the love languages book 100% perfectly, the best result you can hope for is a marginally less extremely difficult relationship.

(Not saying the love languages book would be harmful for anyone to read and implement, but I would be extremely surprised if the love languages book creates a fundamental turnaround in anyone's relationship with a BPD... .and someone thinks it does, I might question whether the person actually had BPD to begin with.)

[vortex of confusion]

I would agree with that, except for me in my case, I am doing exactly what he told me he needed from me, only to be told it's wrong. Everything I do is wrong. Aggressive? Wrong. Not aggressive? Wrong. Initiate? Wrong. Don't initiate? Wrong. More foreplay? Wrong. Less? Wrong. Roleplaying? Wrong. Porn? Wrong. Different locations? Wrong.

<sigh> I have had those same experiences and feelings. For a while, it was that he wasn't comfortable doing anything because our kids were in the house asleep. So, I would try to finangle a date and a hotel room and things were still awkward/wrong/whatever.

Oh yeah... .now my lack of interest, which is because I'm tired of being turned down and blamed for not meeting whatever invisible guideline he has for me, is my fault. Certainly, I'm cheating.

I had to laugh at this one. Not because it is funny but because the only time that my husband could accept that I didn't want to have sex with him was when I actually had somebody on the side that he knew about and encouraged to me have. It was crazy and almost impossible to explain the crazy dynamics because it was push/pull to the extremes.

I'm still in shell shock in how our sex life immediately after our marriage went to the shi@@er. It makes me wonder if he was ever sexually attracted to me at all, just going through the motions to get his claws in?

That's frustration talking. I logically know it's not true, but that doesn't stop the hurt.

I have had that same question for almost 17 years. It was like after we said our vows, he immediately lost interest in me. I think it is more that when we were dating, it was pretty easy to be all excited once a week. And, for my husband anyway, I think things would "work" because there was an element of the forbidden. You know, sex before marriage being a sin and all that. And, if he knew he was going to see me when we were dating, he could not look at porn for a day or two in preparation. Once we were married, all that went out the window. I still question whether or not my husband ever found me attractive. Heck, during one of our "talks", he told me that I just don't trip his trigger. He has since recanted that and says that he finds me very attractive, blah, blah. It sure hurts like heck though.

 

[Michelle27]

I agree with Formflier on knowing your partner's love language. It's possible that you are loving them the way you want to be, instead of what makes them feel loved.

I disagree about the "love languages" statements.  In my interpretation, the crucial premise of the love languages book is that one partner can fundamentally transform the relationship by tuning into the other partner's needs and dealing with the other partner in ways that address those needs. 

When one partner has BPD, that's not the way it actually works.  While you might be able to make some marginal improvements in your relationship with a BPD partner, the other person still has BPD, and no amount of speaking their "love language" will cure that.  The BPD partner will still have massive fear of abandonment, mistrust, paranoia, etc., and all of these things make intimate relationships EXTREMELY difficult.  So even if you, the non, implement the principles of the love languages book 100% perfectly, the best result you can hope for is a marginally less extremely difficult relationship.

(Not saying the love languages book would be harmful for anyone to read and implement, but I would be extremely surprised if the love languages book creates a fundamental turnaround in anyone's relationship with a BPD... .and someone thinks it does, I might question whether the person actually had BPD to begin with.)

This strikes a chord with me.  My husband and I both read the book when our marriage hit bottom after his confession of an affair precisely during the time I was dragging us all over town to 3 different marriage counselors, doctors and a couple's counseling course (all sabotaged, he admits by him).  We both started doing things for the other that were valued and it wasn't enough for my uBPDh.  He raged about him doing it x number of times this week and I had "only" done x number.  It was one more think to paint me black with.  In a "normal" relationship, it would be valuable but I don't think it works for couples in this kind of relationship.  Some perhaps, but not all.

[ColdEthyl]

<sigh> I have had those same experiences and feelings. For a while, it was that he wasn't comfortable doing anything because our kids were in the house asleep. So, I would try to finangle a date and a hotel room and things were still awkward/wrong/whatever.

Yep, I've heard that one, too. So, I started getting hotels rooms for the night. Worked for awhile... .the last few times once he fell asleep on me during oral (yeah... .that'll tell me how awesome I am) and the other it was the frightened/white eyes look and a feign of tiredness. So... .yep. I'm done doing that.

I had to laugh at this one. Not because it is funny but because the only time that my husband could accept that I didn't want to have sex with him was when I actually had somebody on the side that he knew about and encouraged to me have. It was crazy and almost impossible to explain the crazy dynamics because it was push/pull to the extremes.

It's not that crazy. One one hand, he freaks out when he thinks I'm cheating or I want to cheat. He even told me he's jealous of me masturbating. Yet, on several occasions he has mentioned wanting to watch me with another guy, or has told me if I want to cheat just don't tell him about it.

I have had that same question for almost 17 years. It was like after we said our vows, he immediately lost interest in me. I think it is more that when we were dating, it was pretty easy to be all excited once a week. And, for my husband anyway, I think things would "work" because there was an element of the forbidden. You know, sex before marriage being a sin and all that. And, if he knew he was going to see me when we were dating, he could not look at porn for a day or two in preparation. Once we were married, all that went out the window. I still question whether or not my husband ever found me attractive. Heck, during one of our "talks", he told me that I just don't trip his trigger. He has since recanted that and says that he finds me very attractive, blah, blah. It sure hurts like heck though.

Oh... .I get that element of forbidden, also. When my H and I were dating, there was a triangulation issue when he was bouncing between me and his ex for 6 months before we split for almost a month and they split for the final time. I'm guessing that must have been exciting for him.

I know his sexual dysfunction is because of BPD and because of what he went through as a child. It sounds like your H has similar thought patterns and issues. Knowing it doesn't always make it easier to deal with.

[Stalwart]

I just wanted to pipe in on two subjects mentioned.

Wrongturn1 "I disagree about the "love languages" statements.  In my interpretation, the crucial premise of the love languages book is that one partner can fundamentally transform the relationship by tuning into the other partner's needs and dealing with the other partner in ways that address those needs."

Yes, dysregulated times can perhaps affect being attentive to a BPD's personal needs as being positive or acceptable for the moment, but as compared to what? Never becoming aware or attentive to them? There's a real mistake and missing in a relationship. "Love Languages" serves a real purpose if not for simple potential awarenss of better opportunities, then for the possibility of opening up channels of conversation in a relationship that can be difficult to embrace from my experience.

And, to all of the women here posting that are so frustrated with a BPD husband that is affected with ED I so feel for you. I don't have the answers, I wish I did. Although I've been 'fortunate' all my life to have the opposite experience (or problem) depending how you look at it, I can empathize with your husband's situations of it being fearful to enter into a situation and fail... .that must be so intimidating for them and only mentally expemlified because of the posibility. Geeze, BPD so complicates challenges that even people without it would struggle with.

I can also so feel for your frustrations with it and so wish there were good answers or suggestions... .  

[ColdEthyl]

I just wanted to pipe in on two subjects mentioned.

Wrongturn1 "I disagree about the "love languages" statements.  In my interpretation, the crucial premise of the love languages book is that one partner can fundamentally transform the relationship by tuning into the other partner's needs and dealing with the other partner in ways that address those needs."

Yes, dysregulated times can perhaps affect being attentive to a BPD's personal needs as being positive or acceptable for the moment, but as compared to what? Never becoming aware or attentive to them? There's a real mistake and missing in a relationship. "Love Languages" serves a real purpose if not for simple potential awarenss of better opportunities, then for the possibility of opening up channels of conversation in a relationship that can be difficult to embrace from my experience.

And, to all of the women here posting that are so frustrated with a BPD husband that is affected with ED I so feel for you. I don't have the answers, I wish I did. Although I've been 'fortunate' all my life to have the opposite experience (or problem) depending how you look at it, I can empathize with your husband's situations of it being fearful to enter into a situation and fail... .that must be so intimidating for them and only mentally expemlified because of the posibility. Geeze, BPD so complicates challenges that even people without it would struggle with.

I can also so feel for your frustrations with it and so wish there were good answers or suggestions... .  

I believe my husband's is more mental. I'm trying to get him to the doctor, but he's afraid of what they will find so he doesn't do it. He does say to me "You don't understand what it's like. Your body is always ready for sex and a man's isn't" And I do understand that... .the amount of pressure he probably puts on himself to perform... .which means he will probably fail just because he's thinking too much about it.

I just don't know where it all started... .I think because a few times he wasn't able to 'finish' it stuck in his head he's ED and the spiral down started.

In all of this, I know he's not doing anything on purpose, I know he's hurting because of it and he feels like he's not a man and he feels ashamed but where does that leave me? As a pwBPD, he doesn't think about that at all, and in fact gets dysregulated if I bring up my feelings on the matter.

[Stalwart]

I so hear you ColdEthyl and you have my heart   on this one and although it's not right in line so does your husband with this problem, especially complicated with BPD.

I wonder, does your husband know and understand just how many men over forty have this problem? It's astronomical. I wasn't even aware of just how many men did until I entered into conversations. My own twin brother lost his control at 40 as well.

Would he go with you to the doctor to discuss it? Seems a bit of overkill but honestly it may help him and it may even come down to you doing the talking and support him. He's probably mortified at going. Even I would be a bit shy of that one and I've had my doctor for 30 years. I guess it's a guy thing. If you can arrange an appointment talking to the doctor's assistant and asking her to have the doctor really exemplify how normal and common it is would go wonders for his own self-esteem. Does he go for an annual physical or is it itme for one maybe? You have the ability if he arranges for a normal physical to call his doctor and talk to him you know. The doctor would be discretionary I'm sure. I mean I know and you know but how do you get him to know just how common and normal it actually is?

It may be psychological but even trying medical supplements can't hurt even it's an added boost and placebo for his insecurities to bolster them. Stranger things have happened, because it's my observation that state of health or weight don't determine you're going to have the problem.

There are a lot of medical supplements that may help and there are more extreme measures of implants that are really safe, constant and perfectly effective. It's getting him to feel comfortable with going and I know that's a challenge. Does he have male friends you can confide in or associates that might be able to help him with it for support and acknowledgement?

Personally, I never surrender when faced with a challenge - there's got to be a way ColdEthyl and I hope you keep at it in a healthy way and find a resolution.

Like I said it's a bit of a monkey's paw but I'm blessed with the opposite problem but wow, I'm amazed at how many guys I know that seem normal and have this problem. I'm pressed to think of too many friends and associates edging 50 that don't have the problem. It's that common.

[ColdEthyl]

@Stalwart That's the paradigm. It's the battle between what I know and what he logically knows but adding that BPD to the mix makes it almost impossible.

He will be 50 this year. We talked about the issue earlier this week, and twice he mentioned "This means I'm getting old, Doesn't it?" So I clued in on that. It's another piece of the puzzle. He's hating getting older... .this kind of makes it face it. He's brought up arguments in the past that his body is just shutting down because biologically he shouldn't be producing anymore (ridiculous, there's still men in their 70s sexually active) but seeing now he has such a fear of getting older... .naturally he tried to come with something to 'justify' it.

I told him I am calling the doctor and making the appointment and he IS going. I told him I will do the talking and go with him. Last year when I tried to do that, they said he had to call and update his chart. (He's an IHS patient... .Indian Health) Well I checked again and they changed their process so next week I can get the ball rolling.

At first he was a little upset... .not mad upset but nervous upset. Then he said thank you for helping him, he knows he needs to do this for me, he's scared, etc. but if I made the appointment and go with him... .he will go.

I will keep ya'll updated. I seriously will duck tape him and throw him into the car if I have to.

[DyingLove]

Hi everyone -

I know this is terribly personal, but I don't know where else to get input about this.  My wife and I have been together about 20 years and have had sex about 20 times... .most of those times in the first couple of years before she started misreading things I said and did.  I get anxious at the thought of having sex with her because she gets triggered so often without any warning.  Any time I am not happy about something connected to her, she feels criticized, shamed, and I don't get a chance to get understood.  We haven't slept in the same bed for over a decade because the only places I feel completely safe and peaceful are in my office with the door closed and in my bedroom with the door closed (too anxious to sleep with her in the bed with me).

I would imagine there are other spouses out there in a similar situation.  How do you have sex when the relationship feels tense the majority of the waking hours?

Thanks in advance for any shares... .

Find something to start with that makes her feel good.  Foot rub is ideal, then maybe move it to body massage on the bed.  Feel her feelings and just move slowly. Get her feeling good, love making should be a wonderful experience for two.

If the massage doesn't work, maybe jump in the shower with her, wash her back and then maybe that could lead to washing everywhere.  Get her smiling, laughing and having a good time.  You too. Don't forget your pleasure.  Be confident about your moves and don't talk to much at all.  If nothing works, try cooking her a feast!  Sometimes food works or a romantic evening.  Don't forget kissing and gentle touching. Shoulder and neck kisses as well as gentle touches.  You can't run the car if the engine isn't started! ;-)   (gosh, at least I know lovemaking!))

[Stalwart]

ColdEthyl: I will keep ya'll updated. I seriously will duck tape him and throw him into the car if I have to.

I love you girl - YOU GO!

Never surrender! where there's a will there's a way. Good for you. I'm still laughing.  

Best of luck with the visit and good for you to making the appointment and doing his talking. I so hope this works out well for you. You deserve it.

[ColdEthyl]

ColdEthyl: I will keep ya'll updated. I seriously will duck tape him and throw him into the car if I have to.

I love you girl - YOU GO!

Never surrender! where there's a will there's a way. Good for you. I'm still laughing.  

Best of luck with the visit and good for you to making the appointment and doing his talking. I so hope this works out well for you. You deserve it.

ROFL thanks Hey if we don't laugh... .we might cry more Poor guy... .I just remind myself how much that must suck to be that worried and unsure all of the time.

[Stalwart]

I will keep ya'll updated. I seriously will duck tape him and throw him into the car if I have to.

So when you do get back ColdEthyl just keep in mind - not too much information OK?

OH SCRAP IT... .tell us everything... .