Hello

[BGAK]

Hi,

been struggling in a relationship with a girl who I have know for more than 15 years.

The relationship is new'ish- 6 months. I have know her for a lot longer but to no real extent prior to getting together.

Experiencing episodes of what I believe to be BPD on a monthly basis. After 4 months decided to have 2 months of no contact.

Started the relationship again only to have another episode a month in- this was after a month of her being in very good form, actions and words.

When she is good she is amazing, when things are bad there is lots of self loathing etc

She is not a good communicator and internalises a lot- I am just starting on this journey and this may be typical... .

A collective hello to the forum- looking for some support , guidance and help. Personally not coping very well with the push pull, it's very hard.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Stalwart]

Hey BGAD:

Glad to see you here. I'll leave it up to a moderator to really greet you and show you around.

They're good at that. You've come to a great place with a lot of learning resources and people who share in the same experiences.

I'm mean it's a double-edged sword I guess that I'm glad you're here but you know what I mean, really, I wish you didn't have to be but it's good you are.

Just a question or two. What do you mean by monthly, she has problems for a month on and off or problem on a monthly basis?

You say she internalizes and shows self-loathing - how is she with you during those times?

Again, good to see you.

[vortex of confusion]

I wanted to join Stalwart in welcoming you to the forums.

The push/pull and all of the stuff that goes with it is enough to make a person feel kind of crazy. Most people recommend starting with the Lessons that you can find down the right side. Lots of good stuff there. It takes a while to read and wrap your head around. If you have any questions about anything, post away. There are a lot of people here that have a whole lot of experience with this stuff and are really good at offering support.

[BGAK]

Hey BGAD:



Just a question or two. What do you mean by monthly, she has problems for a month on and off or problem on a monthly basis?

You say she internalizes and shows self-loathing - how is she with you during those times?

Again, good to see you.

It almost brings me to tears that I am here and I am finding it very difficult. Just that I have got a reply has done a huge amount for the loneliness and hurt that I am working though but can't show. I am working on finding the right friend as support for myself. So, thank you

In answer to your question- 95% of the month she is great then 5% of the month terrible.

I am ashamed to say that initially and for a few months I thought it was a menstrual issue- over time I saw that it was more coincidental- almost like a trigger but not the root cause and not aligned every time.

I have trawled through quite a few pages on the site today in an effort to understand more. From what I have read I think it most likely that she is high functioning BPD.

The 5% is pushing me away, very little communication- what communication I do get is vague and filled with self loathing "I have been a total 'C word'", "I don't expect you to forgive me", "I'm so sorry". The apologies are always come with a sense of finality i.e. We shouldn't be together.

She would never make any apology to me in good times, she just doesn't ever say sorry, even for trivial things like she might have stepped on my toe for example. This might be the time to also mention that since we have been dating, she can't say my name to me at any time.

This is usually followed by no contact. Which I find really difficult, sleepless nights, worry, lack of concentration... .

I'll reach out a week or so later and get "I'm so glad you got in contact again" and things go back to overwhelming actions of care, love, appreciation, expensive dinners etc

When she is in these self loathing and internalising times, it's like I don't exist. If I even see her she is nearly mute, I try to engage her in some dialogue to no avail and then she usually leaves.

A recent experience was that I asked her to return a suit that I had left at her house- only because I had an important meeting. She came over with her dog, the only time she does that is when she is fearing that I will break things off with her, so the abandonment side of things is an indicator too

It's quite a trip... .

[EaglesJuju]

Hi BGAK, 

Welcome aboard.

I am sorry that you having a hard time with the push-pull.    I completely understand how difficult it is to cope with it. I get incredible anxiety from the instability and uncertainty. I have abandonment fears myself, so it makes it even tougher to cope with no contact.

As Vortex of Confusion  and Stalwart mentioned, learning about BPD makes it easier to cope with the push-pull. You will learn that push-pull has nothing to do with you, it is a coping mechanism that your person with BPD (pwBPD) uses. 

I still struggle with it and the periods in my relationship, where my bf went no contact, were really hard for me. During those times, I learned to associate no contact as a "vacation" for myself. I kept myself busy by doing things that I have always wanted to do, but did not have the time. Also, I spent a lot of time learning about who I am and why I am so affected by the push-pull. I have gotten to a point where I have less anxiety, fear, and worry about push-pull.

The motto of the board is, "before you can make anything better, you must stop making it worse." This is true when it comes to our own behavior. We cannot change our pwBPD's behavior or thoughts, but we can change our own to improve our relationship. 

What aspects of the push-pull that you struggle with the most, the lack of communication or feeling alone?

[Stalwart]

Hey BGAD - all good and again I'm glad you found this place. We all know that dark place of not understanding, knowing what to do, feeling isolated and hopeless. But there is hope for better. “It almost brings me to tears that I am here and I am finding it very difficult” Great you have what it takes to say that here. There isn’t one of us that haven’t sat it tears at one time or another and far too many of us who still do.

So many people and absolutely including myself live with this same problems of our partner's really desperate lack of self and self-hate (if that's an appropriate word for it.) We also live with the no-apology thing.  

I really want to be thorough when I reply to this so you'll have to give me a bit on it in order to do that well. Know a few things for certain though BGAD: you're not alone, it's common, It's not about you (you haven't done a darn thing wrong nor did you cause these feelings in her, or reactions) but you can certainly gear your responses to improve the situation for both of you and there is so much room to improve this when you know how to do that better. You can learn to see when they are coming some times and perhaps even be able to set the stage to avoid her downward spiral when you can understand how and why they happen to her

The on-off disconnects in your relationship may be your best options, I don't really know the situation. On the other hand they might really be feeding her real and desperate fears to a greater degree as well and making that worse for you to handle. Learning how not to make things worse is the first step forward to making them better my friend. A lot of people here will help you with those things so stay here.

Had to laugh at this: “It's quite a trip... .”. From my experience it’s a heck of journey.   It’s all good BGAD, you take strength and know that there is lots of room for improvement in this.

Help everyone out a bit and tell us what your relationship and cohabitation is so we can understand better what the situation is.

Later my friend.

[Stalwart]

Hey BGAK:


Your partner’s experience may be that she’s suddenly triggered by disappointments, struggles, painful memories or anxiety about the past relating it to the present and is horrified of how that WILL play out in her future. These triggers can create an overwhelming flood of feelings of hopelessness, worthlessness and powerlessness which can lead to horrible behaviors, emotional withdrawal or  real aggressive behaviors towards loved ones and family members. The closer you seem to be to them the more terrifying it is to them and makes the lashing worse. It’s because you’re so important to them.

It’s about perception of worth and lack of self-esteem. The underlying environmental factor that every BPD person is affected by and grew up from birth being influenced by as their all too important characteristics were formed. The development of perceived low self-esteem is BPD defined to its raw and basic cause of the mental illness. I would dare to say there is not one BPD who does not suffer in the same way your wife does.  

It is so entrenched in their very being that Simple, trivial shortcomings or deficits can make somebody with BPD believe they have no right to live, or even take up space on the planet. The feelings of self-destructive reproach for even minor mistakes, their inner conversations (the sense they perceive of their overpowering shameful feelings) can be so powerful they may truly want to die = suicidal ideation or attempts in  borderline pathology. Not all are this extreme but all suffer with this same enveloping and overwhelming sense of hate.

The real thing that puts these raw feelings into perspective is the intensity of how they feel and enormity of how this affects them. Many liken it appropriately to having third degree burns over ninety percent of your body. Every really burnt yourself and then even had to expose it to air, wind, water, heat, cold? That’s raw and intense pain. Imagine for a minute that level of desperate, inescapable pain taking over your entire existence and your soul. That’s not only so powerful - it’s all consuming, and inescapable in your partner’s perception. That’s beyond a desperate place not only to be, but to try and cope and perform and interact from.

You’ve sat in the dark, alone and desperate in the middle of the night with your own fears and pain my friend and we all know that place. Imagine the weight of what THEY feel that comes down on them and envelopes their every sense with no feeling that it will ever be any different?

There are those professionals who term this feeling of self-loathing as intermittent. I struggle with that, because I so feel myself that it’s omnipresent in their own self-perception and reflects constantly in so many of their interactions with others and more importantly their inner voices. I liken it to feelings of real self-ugliness and looking out from it through a lens as you look at all those who you pass by or encounter and feeling as though you’re under the microscope of everyone you encounter or even glances your way. In most cases, hoping others can’t see this in you and who ‘you really are’ because if they could see you for who you are they’d run from the hideousness. How absolutely desperate and debilitating that must be to even exist with when your primary need is acceptance and love.

Honestly, this is hard because I bring myself to tears even considering their situations and feelings. I’ve spent insurmountable hours in blogs and posts of BPD people talking about these same feelings and perceptions and they are really difficult to read because of the desperateness of them. Until you’re there you can imagine the reality this is to them and just how desperately they feel and live with these feelings. I’m going to end this for now my friend and I’ll PM you a list of circumstances children that grew up developing these feelings experienced and reasons why they developed this way. I’ve posted it here before and don’t want to repost it. It explains a lot about upbringing and how they perceived theirs and themselves.

One thing I can leave you with here is to assure this can be affected positively when you can understand it and just how intense you partner feels and why she feels this. Not easy subjects to jump into or approach with her so I wouldn’t until I had a real better understanding of how that might even trigger her if it’s not done well on her terms. Hey, it’s always prudent to learn first and see how your new found awareness can be used well. But it can be used well and help.

Any questions my friend are welcome and others can really help you with this as well.

[BGAK]

Kind words, thank you.

I am really on the cusp and I don't think I can take much more of this polarising behaviour. I get the feeling that she just doesn't want to work at it. There is no dialogue and I don't even feel like I can begin to broach the issues at hand. I really feel it is easier for her and me just to move on.

I would presume that a starting point would be dialogue, acceptance and a willingness to try and change. All I get from her is that she wants to run away- the latest is move to another country... .

I am very despondent and don't feel like I can help someone who doesn't want to help themselves.

[vortex of confusion]

I am really on the cusp and I don't think I can take much more of this polarising behaviour. I get the feeling that she just doesn't want to work at it. There is no dialogue and I don't even feel like I can begin to broach the issues at hand. I really feel it is easier for her and me just to move on.

I would presume that a starting point would be dialogue, acceptance and a willingness to try and change. All I get from her is that she wants to run away- the latest is move to another country... .

I know that feeling all too well. It is very difficult when the other person seems to have no desire to work on things. There was a point in time when my husband flat out said that he refused to work on our relationships. His focus was on himself and his sex addiction recovery. It seemed like every conversation we had was about him and his recovery and his this and his that. It didn't feel like he was working on anything other than how to be an even bigger butthole, which he seemed to be mastering quite nicely.

I found that, for me, the first step was NOT dialogue with him. The first step for me was to take a step back all together. There for a while, I pretty much stopped talking to him about much of anything. If he talked, I would listen and validate as long as I could. If I couldn't take it, I would change the subject or excuse myself from the situation. Inside, I was furious.

When I first came here, I didn't quite get that not making things worse would involve me trying to figure out how to detach a bit and stop taking things so personally. I was eager for things to change. I was eager to talk about stuff. That didn't help at all. Instead of talking to my husband about stuff, I would come here and vent and read and try to figure out how to approach things before I ever said a single word to my husband.

I am very despondent and don't feel like I can help someone who doesn't want to help themselves.

Step away from the notion of helping your spouse. Seriously, you can't help her. The only one that you can help is yourself. Have you heard the oxygen mask analogy? On an airplane, they tell you to put your mask on first before trying to help anybody else. So, think about that. What can YOU do to help YOU? When is the last time you did something that you enjoy? When is the last time you spent a day NOT worrying about your partner or trying to figure out how to help her?

Reading and researching BPD can be helpful but I found that there were times when it was just another way to focus on my husband and his problems. It doesn't matter why my husband does what he does. All of the fancy shmancy psychological stuff is interesting but it can actually detract from figuring out how to live with this stuff.

 

[vortex of confusion]

You’ve sat in the dark, alone and desperate in the middle of the night with your own fears and pain my friend and we all know that place. Imagine the weight of what THEY feel that comes down on them and envelopes their every sense with no feeling that it will ever be any different?

Stalwart, your post is really awesome and has lot of information to help somebody understand what a person with BPD might be experiencing.

I wanted to comment on this in particular because one of the most frustrating things that I have experienced over the years is sharing my story and having somebody come back and say, "Imagine how your husband feels." I have imagined how he feels. I have thought about how much he struggles. Understanding him might help to a certain degree but I am sick and tired of trying to understand him and his struggles. I wanted somebody to understand ME and my struggles. I wanted somebody to listen to me without saying, "but what about him". I wanted to find information that said, "Okay, your husband is doing x, y, or z, here are some things that YOU can do for YOU to help YOU." That involved things like telling me it was okay to set boundaries and that it was okay if he got upset with me for saying no. Most importantly, it was the reminder that I am NOT responsible for my husband's feelings. When I read things like, "Imagine how he must be feeling", my first inclination is to go back to that place where I felt responsible for him.

[Stalwart]

Hey Vortex:

I really want to sincerely say that I totally appreciate your input to my earlier post. I’d like to respond and this isn’t in defense of my post but perhaps better clarity.

“I wanted to comment on this in particular because one of the most frustrating things that I have experienced over the years is sharing my story and having somebody come back and say, "Imagine how your husband feels."

I can so understand that. Particularly in your case when you have done so much work in reading the “psychological crap” to better understand what you are seeing from your husband, why he is acting in that way and are able as a result to separate your involvement and implicit involvement in the situation. You can understand it’s probably got absolutely nothing to do with you, nor are you able to affect it in a positive way at the time it’s happening. You’ve done your work and time and you understand -  so you can step away personally less involved.

You see, I use the word empathy but generally also throw in the disclaimer, not to be confused with pity. I don’t personally believe that coming to an empathetic state necessary means that as a result of the insight it relates to having pity or feeling sorry for a person in every circumstance. It does relate to having a complete understanding of both, how that person feels at that time and the reasons they feel that way. You’ve done the work to put yourself into their place and feel what they feel and know why they feel that way. You can empathize with their emotional state and situation.

If on the other hand, someone is newer to these insights my only intent is to help gain a better insight in the hopes they may learn it isn’t necessarily, and seldom is about them, their involvement or guilt or feelings of inadequacy so they can take that step away and personally be able to absolve themselves of personal involvement or responsibility. To know in so many cases it’s not about them at all. It could so simply be about something else that is going on their spouses life outside the home they aren’t revealing or even be a baseball bat from the past coming back to visit for any one of hundred unknown incidents they’ve lived in the past and can’t get by.

For my part I sometimes feel that particularly with men it’s a more difficult challenge to actually wrap yourself into all the emotional contingencies and nuances of a situation because we’re so apt to jump in with both feet and our brains so intently focused to analytic rationale and solution seeking. Before I get pounded on here I’m speaking in generalities. Some of us are automitrons set on rationale rather than rationale equating emotions as part of the solution. I can certainly say in the past I’m as guilty of that as any.

To share a little secret Vortex when I had so many difficulties in the past it wasn’t until another woman came to me and said “It will depend on whether or not you can find forgiveness in your heart” that I even clicked into the fact that there were emotional reasons that might have affected my wife’s decisions. Time to explore this a bit deeper from a whole different angle if I’ m going to fair and really knowledgeable in coming to my own decision right? My first immediate reactions internally to her statement was “FORGIVENESS are you f’n kidding me – what does that have to with anything?” Perhaps in some cases testosterone and anger have their limitations when shaken up together and taken in large quantities numbs our brains to consider it in the mix.

Hope this explains the motivation of what I posted a little better Vortex and the rationale behind it. Honestly my motivation is to help safeguard how he feels and really not HOW she does but why she does and his probable lack of involvement or ability to affect that situation positively or being responsible for it. On a side note we have talked in PMs.

Again, thanks for the input and  post Vortex I appreciate you taking the time.

[Notwendy]

"I’ll PM you a list of circumstances children that grew up developing these feelings experienced and reasons why they developed this way. I’ve posted it here before and don’t want to repost it. It explains a lot about upbringing and how they perceived theirs and themselves. "


I would like to see this. Can you repost this - copy/paste what you sent into a thread?

I developed sympathy for my mother with BPD while being around her family. The best way I can describe them is self absorbed. They are not bad people, but when I am around them, I feel invisible. They don't see me or hear me. It's like I am outside their world. I don't see them as intentionally hurtful, but they have acted in thoughtless ways to me and I don't think they are aware of it.

It was at this point that I began to have sympathy for her. That was quite a shift considering I saw her as the cause of a lot of cruelty to me as a child. Yet they are really condescending to her, and she feels insecure around them, as if she can never be as good as they are no matter what. She - who she is- doesn't seem to exist to them.

I would be interested in the other stories. I think we can all recognize the impact of serious abuse, but I would also think that being invalidated, in the absence of abuse, would lead to some of the feelings that people with BPD have. If your family didn't recognize "you" when you were growing up- how does that impact your sense of self?

[Stalwart]

Hey Notwendy it would be my pleasure. I’ve tried not to resend it into post because it’s in another post I was in, but hey, I don’t manage the web capacity 

“I would be interested in the other stories. I think we can all recognize the impact of serious abuse, but I would also think that being invalidated would lead to some of the feelings that people with BPD have.”

Just a prelude to posting it. Not quite sure I get the meaning of serious abuse, does that relate to physical abuse rather than emotional and invalidating abuse as being serious?

I spend a lot of time and have for some time in sites that are designed specifically for people with BPD. It’s how I learn and can sometimes relate from their extremes in thinking. I’ve been actually blessed to be accepted and welcomed as a non in those sites because they can be hostile about nons posting. I’m always considerate and limited in my ‘fixes’ and focus on both validation in some cases and structuring to allow a person to fully explore their vents without adding my opinions or ‘fixes’. More often than not they really do post just to vent and be heard so it’s all good for both of us. I’ve also been able to establish some good friendships as well.

I’ve so often been in conversations with people ‘duking it out’ on the subject you stated. Some who have been exposed to physical abuse believe it’s worse than emotional abuse or extreme and constant invalidation as a child. In my grey world I believe both are just absolutely devastating, but the ‘jury is still out’ in the BPD blogs on it. 

Hope this helps with your search.

1. Adults shamed as children are afraid of vulnerability and fear of exposure of the self.

2. Adults shamed as children may suffer extreme shyness, embarrassment and feelings of being inferior to others. They don't believe they make mistakes. Instead they believe they are mistakes.

3. Adults shamed as children fear intimacy and tend to avoid real commitment in relationships. These adults frequently express the feeling that one foot is out of the door prepared to run.

4. Adults shamed as children may appear either grandiose and self-centered or seem selfless.

5. Adults shamed as children feel that, "No matter what I do, it won't make a difference; I am and always will be worthless and unlovable."

6. Adults shamed as children frequently feel defensive when even a minor negative feedback is given. They suffer feelings of severe humiliation if forced to look at mistakes or imperfections.

7. Adults shamed as children frequently blame others before they can be blamed.

8. Adults shamed as children may suffer from debilitating guilt These individuals apologize constantly. They assume responsibility for the behavior of those around them.

9. Adults shamed as children feel like outsiders. They feel a pervasive sense of loneliness throughout their lives, even when surrounded with those who love and care.

10. Adults shamed as children project their beliefs about themselves onto others. They engage in mind-reading that is not in their favor, consistently feeling judged by others.

11. Adults shamed as children often feel ugly, flawed and imperfect. These feelings regarding self may lead to focus on clothing and make-up in an attempt to hide flaws in personal appearance and self.

12. Adults shamed as children often feel angry and judgmental towards the qualities in others that they feel ashamed of in themselves. This can lead to shaming others.

13. Adults shamed as children often feel controlled from the outside as well as from within. Normal spontaneous expression is blocked.

14. Adults shamed as children feel they must do things perfectly or not at all. This internalized belief frequently leads to performance anxiety and procrastination.

15. Adults shamed as children experience depression.

16. Adults shamed as children block their feelings of shame through compulsive behaviors like workaholis, eating disorders, shopping, substance abuse, list-making or gambling.

17. Adults shamed as children lie to themselves and others.

18. Adults shamed as children often have caseloads rather than friendships.

19. Adults shamed as children often involve themselves in compulsive processing of past interactions and events and intellectualization as a defense against pain.

20. Adults shamed as children have little sense of emotional boundaries. They feel constantly violated by others. They frequently build false boundaries through walls, rage, pleasing or isolation.

21. Adults shamed as children are stuck in dependency or counter-dependency.

Yikes: Long eh? 

[Notwendy]

This trait of not seeing themselves and others is something I am curious about. Maybe the background of people with BPD can be another thread for more discussion. One quality is their poor sense of self- they make it about how others see them. This is why they have such a good mask around other people, and why, if someone is unhappy or angry at them, they can shatter their entire self concept- because the pw BPD has placed their sense of self on the other person. This is also a reason why they can project on to them, paint them black and white, rage at them. The person with BPD may not know who they are, and so, the other person feels invisible too. They feel as if they don't exist. They are a canvas that the pw BPD paints emotions on. The pw BPD doesn't understand the impact of their behavior on to them.

When we are born, we don't have a sense of self separate from mother.At some point as infants, we realize we are a separate person. Hopefully our parents can reflect that back to us. I was with a young mother and baby yesterday, and the baby was gesturing to the mom. The mom was tired and ignoring her. I picked up the baby and started to talk to her. She babbled at me. I spoke back, called her by name. I acknowledged her communications. I know that my mother projected a lot of things about me as a baby- such as saying I threw up on her on purpose, thus invalidating that the real me ( most people don't think babies do this on purpose to someone)  didn't do that on purpose, but was probably indicating that I had a stomach ache. So, I wonder, in these families, if it starts there?

[Notwendy]

Thanks for the list! I guess I should clarify serious abuse and say overt, documented abuse. It's easy to identify abuse when someone has injuries, or evidence of neglect. I know in my mother's family, our family, my H's family, that didn't happen. Nobody was harmed or touched physically, kids were clothed, fed, taken to the doctor and dentist as needed, went to school. These families looked like most other families. Yet, emotional abuse is serious.

[Stalwart]

Hey Wendy, it might be a good subject for another post. For three years I've focused on this learning from books - clinical publications -online articles - published studies and - experimental hypostesis. Might be a great conversation.

I was just laughing, although not at your plight: "I threw up on her on purpose, thus invalidating that the real me ( most people don't think babies do this on purpose to someone)  didn't do that on purpose"

When my two girls where babies I'd play with them on the floor after they ate. I'd hold them up in the air and play airpane with them. They'd bring up on my face and in my mouth everytime. "I knew they did it on purpose"  

You would have thought I'd be bright enough to figure it out not to do that right after they ate after the first daughter -- wouldn't you?  

[Notwendy]

I think it is a pretty safe bet that if you play airplane with a baby after they eat, that whatever they eat is going to fly.

There was a lot of assumptions about me as a baby/child. If I threw up, or had a bathroom accident, or didn't listen, I was doing it on purpose to HER as if I was planning it. Very strange. I did start a new thread on this topic.

Perhaps this is why I get triggered when my H makes an assumption about something I say and I don't intend it or it isn't even about what he thinks it is.

[vortex of confusion]

I really want to sincerely say that I totally appreciate your input to my earlier post. I’d like to respond and this isn’t in defense of my post but perhaps better clarity.

I was simply trying to provide an alternative perspective and share what helped me.

I can so understand that. Particularly in your case when you have done so much work in reading the “psychological crap” to better understand what you are seeing from your husband, why he is acting in that way and are able as a result to separate your involvement and implicit involvement in the situation. You can understand it’s probably got absolutely nothing to do with you, nor are you able to affect it in a positive way at the time it’s happening. You’ve done your work and time and you understand -  so you can step away personally less involved.

I have found, for me personally, that understanding what I am seeing from him or understanding why he is acting that way wasn't very helpful. When I did that, I felt as though my feelings were not valid. I felt like, "WOW, he has life so much worse than me. That means that I need to protect him and help him." It took me back to that place from when I was a kid and would get told by my mother that I shouldn't be mad at my sister and that I should be thankful that she was alive blah, blah, blah. My sister had a lot of difficulties as a baby and that was used as a tool to invalidate pretty much anything and everything that I felt towards her. There have been a lot of instances in my life where people used the whole, "If you understood what they were going through, then you would feel differently." Understanding why my husband is being a jerk does not help me to feel differently. What I have been working on is allowing myself to feel stuff. I am working on changing my reactions. I am trying to keep things focused on ME. This approach may not work for everyone but I wanted to put it out there in case people are reading this and thinking that the only way to work through this is to have a deep understanding of the WHY behind the behavior. Sure, that can help. Like you, I am a very rational and logical person and I spent a lot of time spinning my wheels focusing on trying to understand my partner. I don't feel like I made real headway until I changed the focus to understanding myself.

If on the other hand, someone is newer to these insights my only intent is to help gain a better insight in the hopes they may learn it isn’t necessarily, and seldom is about them, their involvement or guilt or feelings of inadequacy so they can take that step away and personally be able to absolve themselves of personal involvement or responsibility.

When I read this, I had a bit of a reaction. Not a trigger but more of a, "Hmmm. . ." moment. I think it is because I have been working on trying to be brutally honest with myself. A lot of my husband's behaviors aren't about me. I get that. My concern is that this line of thinking could be used by somebody to NOT take full responsibility for their role in things. A relationship takes two people. Even if I am not directly responsible and have no personal involvement, it is quite possible for me to make things better or worse depending on whether or not I am keeping myself in check. For me, it is about finding that balance between saying "I accept All of the responsibility" versus saying "I accept NONE of the responsibility." I hope that makes sense. It is about finding that balance and being able to identify things more objectively.

[vortex of confusion]

Thanks for the list! I guess I should clarify serious abuse and say overt, documented abuse. It's easy to identify abuse when someone has injuries, or evidence of neglect. I know in my mother's family, our family, my H's family, that didn't happen. Nobody was harmed or touched physically, kids were clothed, fed, taken to the doctor and dentist as needed, went to school. These families looked like most other families. Yet, emotional abuse is serious.

Here is a link to the list with some extra information: https://bpdfamily.com/content/shame-powerful-painful-and-potentially-dangerous-emotion

The problem with emotional abuse is that it is so very difficult to identify. I didn't realize for the longest time that some of my husband's behaviors were emotionally abusive. It wasn't as bad as what I grew up with but it was still abusive nonetheless. It wasn't until I happened upon a book about it that I understood what the heck had been going on and why I felt so bad about some things.

Have you seen this link about an Invalidating Environment: www.BPD.about.com/od/environmentalcausesorBPD/a/Invalidate.htm

[Stalwart]

Hey vortex:

I think we might just have to stop meeting like this  

There was no problem or offense about reposting I was being sincere thanking you.

From you : "All of the responsibility" versus saying "I accept NONE of the responsibility." I hope that makes sense. It is about finding that balance and being able to identify things more objectively."

I can only say that when I objectify an issue I don't think it ever involves both extremities of a pole because like you say it's an interaction and a dance we do together. I isolate my involvement and accept the responsibility solely for that.

I suppose in some cases it is just one person but all too often I've found in my relationship there's usually a dance and sometimes we step on eachother's feet. Question is, who went out of step? It becomes different if we wonder if they stomped on your foot on purpose, or if you put your foot in the wrong place. Even still did she have to step down that darn hard?

If it wasn't so darn complicated and different for an experience for each of us we wouldn't be here conversing about it at all. For my part, I'm glad we have it.  

[vortex of confusion]

I suppose in some cases it is just one person but all too often I've found in my relationship there's usually a dance and sometimes we step on eachother's feet. Question is, who went out of step? It becomes different if we wonder if they stomped on your foot on purpose, or if you put your foot in the wrong place. Even still did she have to step down that darn hard?

That made me chuckle and it reminded me of the analogy that I sometimes use. Some of this stuff is like stubbing your toe. It friggin' hurts. Whether or not it was intentional is irrelevant. Nobody ever sets out to stub a toe. If I keep stubbing my toe on the same thing, then maybe it is time to move the thing that I keep stubbing my toe on. Either that, or I need to get some glasses so I can see better. Or, I need to remember to turn on the light so I can see better. 

[Stalwart]

I really feel it is easier for her and me just to move on.

I'm hoping I just figured out how to copy a quote properly. YES! I finally figured out how to do that in this format!


BGAK my friend I can understand you're really consumed with the difficulties you're having right now and I don't know if you have time or find meaning in conversing right now. I can understand and feel for the spot you're in right now my friend.

If you can find time or want maybe you could do something that might help with definition a bit. Not about her, just about you: What would a pro and cons sheet look like if you were to put your mind to documenting one right now?

[Stalwart]

That made me chuckle and it reminded me of the analogy that I sometimes use. Some of this stuff is like stubbing your toe. It friggin' hurts. Whether or not it was intentional is irrelevant. Nobody ever sets out to stub a toe. If I keep stubbing my toe on the same thing, then maybe it is time to move the thing that I keep stubbing my toe on. Either that, or I need to get some glasses so I can see better. Or, I need to remember to turn on the light so I can see better. 

Love it Vortex - You're more poetic than I am. 

[BGAK]

Step away from the notion of helping your spouse. Seriously, you can't help her. The only one that you can help is yourself. Have you heard the oxygen mask analogy? On an airplane, they tell you to put your mask on first before trying to help anybody else. So, think about that. What can YOU do to help YOU? When is the last time you did something that you enjoy? When is the last time you spent a day NOT worrying about your partner or trying to figure out how to help her?

Reading and researching BPD can be helpful but I found that there were times when it was just another way to focus on my husband and his problems. It doesn't matter why my husband does what he does. All of the fancy shmancy psychological stuff is interesting but it can actually detract from figuring out how to live with this stuff.

 

With the reading I have done around the site I know that I shouldn't take it personally and that I can't help her. I have been saying this to her for months that she needs to do this for herself and on her own- I am prepared to support her and cheer from the sidelines.

When she is in a good cycle she is often saying that she has found a counsellor because she knows she has some issues. I still don't know if she has been or not and am too frightened to ask. I get the impression that she says these things to placate me rather than actually take steps for herself. This is a common theme in the good cycles- she says a lot of things that she thinks I want/need to hear.

I tried to make some contact yesterday, only to be blown off again. I feel completely trapped.

I pushed her a little and the response I got was "you deserve honesty and to know the truth behind all the dramas... .I don't want to tell you because it is f*cked and I feel ashamed of myself"

Where do I go from here, do I have this conversation with her? I feel like I am the one pushing and is that a good idea?

[Stalwart]

I can only tell you this about pushing for information or finally having my wife come out. I did it very carefully and with one conditions I limited totally from the conversation at all. I didn't want her to talk at all about us or any time since we began our relationship. I only wanted to know about her experiences and her life prior to that. It kept any guilt or consequences or anger about us away from the conversation and opened her up to freely talk about other things without that worrying or triggering.

I never gave her an opinion anywhere in the conversation, nor did I tell her how to fix a darn thing, I just asked questions to keep the conversation guided and let her explore her feelings more thoroughly and listened a lot, validated if I saw her getting upset and the conversation unfolded. I found out things I really couldn't have even imagined but showed no shock or negative reaction at all. If anything I remained comforting where I found it necessary to prompt her on.

Honestly I was on a mission and I led the conversation for her by asking her questions that were posed from the nine criteria but specifically clinical about them. The answers to the questions I posed would however reveal the points of criteria and the established fundamental of BPD traits.

[vortex of confusion]

When she is in a good cycle she is often saying that she has found a counsellor because she knows she has some issues. I still don't know if she has been or not and am too frightened to ask. I get the impression that she says these things to placate me rather than actually take steps for herself. This is a common theme in the good cycles- she says a lot of things that she thinks I want/need to hear.

I think that is pretty common. I know my husband did that to me for years. When things were good, he would tell me what I wanted to hear. He would be nice and everything would be okay just long enough for me to relax and the whole cycle would start again as soon as I relaxed and let my guard down.

I tried to make some contact yesterday, only to be blown off again. I feel completely trapped.

I pushed her a little and the response I got was "you deserve honesty and to know the truth behind all the dramas... .I don't want to tell you because it is f*cked and I feel ashamed of myself"

Where do I go from here, do I have this conversation with her? I feel like I am the one pushing and is that a good idea?

I am not quite sure how to explain this so bear with me. First, stop talking. Don't listen to her words and don't try to have conversations. Those can come later. Look at her actions. What are her actions telling you? Tune out the words and look at her actions.

Yes, she feels ashamed of herself. My husband's shame runs deeper than anything I will ever be able to understand or comprehend. I get that. It doesn't matter how much shame he feels, that doesn't give him the right to be a jackazz to me. So, don't talk. Start listening and paying attention to what you think and feel. Think about what YOU want.

If you want to ask her questions and dig deeper, go for it. If you don't want to do that, then don't. What kinds of things does she do to you that hurt you the most? Are they things that you can set boundaries around to protect yourself?

If she tells you a bunch of stuff that sounds good, don't put any weight on it. Listen politely, validate, and then look at her actions. It took a long time and a lot of trial and error before I think I finally got my husband to even remotely get that I was no longer going to listen to what he said.

How long has it been since the two of you had any contact?

You said that you tried to contact her and she blew you off? How did she blow you off? What do you think would happen if you stopped trying to contact her for a bit?

[BGAK]

I really feel it is easier for her and me just to move on.

I'm hoping I just figured out how to copy a quote properly. YES! I finally figured out how to do that in this format!


BGAK my friend I can understand you're really consumed with the difficulties you're having right now and I don't know if you have time or find meaning in conversing right now. I can understand and feel for the spot you're in right now my friend.

If you can find time or want maybe you could do something that might help with definition a bit. Not about her, just about you: What would a pro and cons sheet look like if you were to put your mind to documenting one right now?

Hey Stalwart, job was done months ago and I have pros and con sheets coming out of my proverbial... .

The cons far outweigh the pros- something I was resigned to months ago. I guess the feelings of being made to feel so special, cared for and loved fogged my feelings of rejection and passive aggressive non communication. I personally find this a lot harder to deal with than someone lashing out- which she never does. It's very pernicious

Vortex, it has been a couple of weeks since I have seen her with intermittent messaging an emails- mostly filled with self loathing, guilt and shame.

I do want answers and some level of understanding but I also don't want to exert any pressure. Listening to what she wants to say will help me with making an informed decision on the next steps- be it to part company or to look at how things could be resolved. I am more inclined to go with the former. This leaves me with guilt as I fear I am taking the easy route.

I think she would also like the relationship to end, it would be easier for her. The reason she does things that will hurt herself is so that her actions define the end goal. Ie. she does these things to help make the decision for her because she can't do it any other way or if she does X it will give her no choice but to end up at Y. I hope this makes sense... .

We are going to see each other later today- my strategy is to listen and not judge. I never try to judge people and certainly never make people feel bad about their actions regardless of how bad they have made me feel. She does a pretty good job of making herself feel bad... .

Does the process of confession, so to speak, act as good stepping stone for someone with BPD?

I fear that she is also engaging in behaviour that is putting me at risk to do with fidelity- which I suspect she does out self loathing.

She has a brilliant mind, very high functioning and intelligent. These are the things that I love about her (and I am horribly in love with her). For these reasons and these reasons alone I would try to work at this but there are very real risk factors of which I don't think I can overlook or safely be around myself.

[Stalwart]

Where do I go from here, do I have this conversation with her?

I don't know if this will help BGAK but it might if you're trying to find awareness for your wife and you think that's possible. I just did this with another person who is looking for his wife's awareness so it's a copy and paste of the other one.

In my experience it is so much more important that my wife came to that conclusion of her problem and diagnosis rather than “I’m going to tell my wife she has BPD.” One good thing and it’s a biggie is that you’ve said she really doesn’t seem to have a knowledge of what that is. So she has no real awareness of the huge stigmas attached to it. Good place to leave that as well if you want to her to gain recognition and seek help. There really is a necessity to play it down and its significance as being a MENTAL illness. I never use the word mental, illness or disorder. I use the word ‘challenge’ or ‘problem’ if I ever have to absolutely put a label to it at all in a conversation with my wife.

I can only tell you how I approached recognition with my wife and you take it as you will. I don’t want to get into it here but someone else approached me through PMs about this. I told her much the same – she did it with her boyfriend and she was really successful. He accepted it and sought out therapy right away. I’ll copy you that and PM it to you because it’s a bit personal and I don’t throwing everything out here. Modesty thing I guess. I’m also going to copy this to another thread because someone else is in the same position of trying to get awareness.

Sit back it’s going to take a bit.

I’m not going into the dark past and particulars that led to my wife’s real downfalls and dysregulations. It’s enough to know that she was at rock bottom and beaten up. She was so dysregulated and saying things that were so dysfunctional for the situation at hand that the light bulb came on. It’s BPD. I’d read about it before but bypassed it because she seemingly didn’t really fit, but from her past she was good at hiding somethings. Dysregulation has a way of screaming those things in your face – but you already know that. So I already knew what the problem was but she was undiagnosed and unaware of the disorder even.

I took a really involved test for BPD that spoke to all the symptoms of it. I also took another one that was more basic and listed the nine criteria – object to meet five of the nine for a possibility of this illness.

For each symptom I developed a question to ask her from her past and if she ever experienced something in her life that made her feel that way. It’s a bit of trick to ensure you word the questions with no triggers.

One really, really big thing is to first set the criteria of the conversation and it is limited to her life before she met me and has absolutely nothing to do with our relationship at all! Made it clear I just wanted to know about how she grew up and some of her other relationships and experiences. REALLY IMPORTANT.

I had to wait for the right moment when she was really calm and ensure I created and maintained that atmosphere where I was worried about how upset she gets sometimes and HOW SHE FEELS. I made it all about her and made sure she knew that.

Then I started into the questions. What was it like when you were in public school? And went on from there. I had about twelve questions all of them I knew if she let go and was truthful and trusting enough to get to that place would answer the full criteria.

We sat together on the couch all afternoon, she talked and I listened. I’d help steer her conversation a bit but never offered opinions, advice or contradicted a statement. I validated to help her feel more comfortable and moved along so she felt listened to.

She totally failed 7 out of nine criteria, if fail is the correct terminology.

Prior to starting this I had taken a write up on BPD and copied it. I then sat down and rewrote it. I took out any harsh or damaging statement and wordsmithed it to be more mild so it wouldn’t trigger her with anything damaging when she read it. It contained all the different elements that constitute the criteria for BPD

When she'd finished talking (answering all the questions if want to look at it that way) I told her that there are so many other people that have felt just the same she has for so many years and that's she not along conversation... ."I'd like you to read this sometime. I gave it to her and she read it right away.

When she finished reading it she was almost in tears (I’ve never seen her cry, I don’t think she can) and said, it’s almost as though they wrote this about me. Of course she threw out the self-harming and suicidal tendencies (she doesn’t have them). That was good though because now in her mind if she did have BPD she must “really be a mild case.” Hey, I’ll take that, true or not it’s a great start and who I am to tell her otherwise. Now it’s a therapist job to manage all that. My job is to manage me in a better way to accommodate the situation now that there’s awareness of what it is.

In following up and talking to her about it afterwards I made it a positive thing and no negatives about the illness. Again I focused and honed right in on how great it would be if she “could get the help so she could some of that past behind her and not feel so hurt about it.” Nothing about me wanting to benefit from it or our marriage. Just about her welfare and my concern for that.

Long story short I had an appointment fast-tracked through a friend where we live because there is only psychologist that diagnosis here and it’s a year wait list. She cancelled two appointments but went to the third one and ended up with her official diagnosis and accepted it. Of course no psychologist is going to go into the real negative things about BPD with her either so it all worked out well.

She started therapy, I started learning how to change myself and today it’s a whole new ballgame.

Having two people working toward the same goal even if it’s from totally different poles is a game changer. I just have to add I’m so, so proud of her. A long way still to go but she keeps going the right direction and that’s all the hope I need.

Just food for thought my friend. I will follow-up and PM you the other person’s conversation though it’s really encouraging. Sorry this was so long to plow through.

[BGAK]

I am checking out, it is a mountain to high for me.

After speaking with her I have decided that the best option is to move on as she is engaging in behaviour that is putting me at risk.

Thank you to everyone for the support and advice, it has been overwhelming to see the level of support, respect and love that I have seen here.

I would also like to wish everyone the best for the future

Deep love to all

BGAK