Escaping, Coping, or Winning against NPDs

[Pou]

So I am planning to stay because of my kids, the things that my NPDw does is unbelievable and really weighs on me on daily basis.  Just this past mother's day, every year for the past 7 years since my mother was here helping taking care of our first child, we have celebrated her and her mom (whom I also see NPD patterns) together on mother's day, gifts and fancy meals, every year and with out kids.  Every year I go out with them, the entire weekend they would not mention my mother at all (they usually don't anyway, but one would think that on mother's day, they would).  So this year, I fed up and I told her weeks in advance that we should go to visit my mom for mother's day.  So as any good NPD would, she starts to smear and fabricate reality such as I blocked her from seeing her mom (we see her often and I never block her) and how before her mom moved close 8 years ago, we never visited her for mother's day ... .blah, blah, so it is justified for them to completely ignore my mother.  Needless to say, any retards could see and know this is just a mess up situation.  My NPDw proceeded to contact my sister a few days before mother's day and tell her how she can't go because she is very busy and won't have time to drive 3 hours to visit with kids and they are welcome to visit.  Keep in mind, we were close by my mother 2 times earlier this year for trips she planned and i asked both times to drive by to visit my mom, she shot me down and flat out ignore me or started saying that I am robbing kids' fun time, when my daughter wanted to see my mom.  Needless to say, I can not keep skipping mother's day for my mother so I drove 7 hours by myself all within 12 hours just to visit my mom and wish her a happy mother's day.  I know if I stay over night, she will freak out and give me a hard time.  I asked her later what she did, she said she just took the kids to the park.  My daughter told me otherwise.  Early that morning, she took my kids with her mother alone with another NPD friend (yes, strangely... .I am surrounded by them and I assume this what hell would be like).  They drove for over an hour each way to get to the beach and went to spent time at the beach, later on, they took kids and went to play ground and didn't get home until past 7PM.  So she took the entire day out and she told my sister that she has so much work so she can't travel.  I recently read books and watched education materials about NPDs and everyone says ... .run, run fast and run the other way if you are with someone who is NPD.  I thought about running, but I can not stand the thought abandoning my 3 kids.  I could fight for them, but knowing NPD and I am pretty sure my wife is a sociopath ... .I am afraid the legal fight would be mud slinging and result in bankruptcy.  I got three kids... .this seems to be a terrible option.  I want to know ... .other than escaping and coping, who here on this board has devised an ingenious plan or actions that can consistency win against NPD's irrational behaviors?  There got to be a way.  They seems to be sociopathics on autopilots.  They operate without any concerns for others ... .only for themselves.  There got to be a way to deal with these people that can be much more productive than just running away or simply coping.  I got to figure this out for my own sanity and for my kids' sake.  Your inputs will be helpful.  Keep in mind, this mother's day thing is just an example... .the same thing happens on holidays and birthdays... .it is all about the NPDs.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[vortex of confusion]

I think that is a difficult question to answer. Does your wife have a formal diagnosis of NPD?

Sociopaths and NPD's can have slightly different approaches than someone with BPD. At least that is my impression from what I have read so far.

I don't think there is such a thing as a fool proof plan. You can cope and try to thrive when things are good. How long has it been since you reviewed the lessons? I can sometimes go through them again and find something new. And sometimes, I review them and get irritated because this isn't what I wanted out of my marriage and my life. <sigh>

I don't have any good answers or ideas but did want to at least offer some words of support.   

I am in the same position as you. I refuse to leave. I have 4 young kids and my husband does contribute and make some things a lot easier. I find it easier to cope when I can remind myself of why I am staying to begin with. How old is your youngest child? There are days when I have sat down and figured out how many years I have left.

[Stalwart]

 Hey Pou:

I don’t know if your partner is diagnosed or not but you know what they say about making assumptions Pou. Fact is, they are not only dangerous but can so lead you personally (and your partner) in such a bad direction that even the thought of recovering from it is nearly impossible. That doesn’t even begin to address the effects of a totally dysfunctional relationship on the kids.

“I recently read books and watched education materials about NPDs and everyone says ... .run, run fast and run the other way if you are with someone who is NPD.”

You know Pou, it is so absolutely important to ensure the information you’re researching or reading is credible and substantiated through professionalism. I understand fully what you’re saying and in the past when faced with a severe situation was advices by both a psychiatrist in a hospital crises center, a psychologist in a community crisis center and my own therapist that “pack and run immediately is your only option….” All considered I was dealing with a sociopath. Fact is, I already knew they were wrong and their advice was both shallow and subjected to their experiences and negative dealings in other settings without giving consideration to my specific situation. The mental health field really isn’t necessarily any better informed or educated on some Axis II disorders than we are. They also have their stigmatized perceptions and reactions when exposed to these situations.

I might suggest you continue reading and learn more because ultimately it will only be by educating yourself that you will be able to see the opportunities that exist to better your own situation and the others’ in your life affected by this. Narcissist, sociopathic behavior, BPD, or just being in a ‘normal’ non-affected relationship; really learning and putting the ‘lessons’ you find here on this site can only better you as a person dealing with others. That’s the best place to start working on yourself. There’s also a real need to understand that you aren’t going to WIN by thinking you can change your partner – you won’t. You do have the opportunity to change yourself to better suit your situation though or in doing so change the dynamics for your whole family in coping with the differences.

“They (NDPs) seems to be sociopathics on autopilots.”

There are reason that we confuse narcissists and sociopaths because on the outside they seem to share some elements. It’s easily summed up with this recognition: “Sociopaths are narcissistic but narcissists are not sociopaths. Some characteristics of their personalities and motivations behind their actions are very, very different. It’s totally important and necessary to identify or differentiate the two types. It is even more important to identify if a person is borderline and neither of the above; because understanding and learning is vital to finding possible solutions. It is neither a simple nor easy (quick-fix) learning path. Learning and really relating to and understanding Axis I or II disorders is a real life-challenge.

Honestly, the more educated you become the more you will see there are no comparisons to NDP, Sociopathic or Borderline, although our interpretations and misinterpretations of what we see and feel lead us to believe what we are seeing are like in their natures. All though, ( regardless of diagnosis) can be like in their detriments if you don’t truly understand the motivations behind their actions in a personal setting.

“… who here on this board has devised an ingenious plan or actions that can consistency win against NPD's irrational behaviors?  There got to be a way.”

There is one thing I can assure you, because there is an absolute certainty to it Pou: if you want or need to WIN, you’re already on a path that isn’t going to bring you any resolution to your challenges. It isn’t and never is about WINNING in a relationship any more than it is about losing. It’s all about finding solutions that work for both parties to exist in a better situation. If you find that you’re driven by an egotistical need to win with dominance over another person’s spirit or existence it can only bring both of you hardship and pain. In the case of rational thought vs. mental illness it really winning really requires a hugely different personal realization and radical understanding. This is an absolute dealing with a mental illness or personality disorder unless of course it is actually a sociopathic disorder your dealing with because ultimately you might anger them because they aren’t successful with their intents but you aren’t going to hurt them or ‘win’.

It’s only about finding better harmony in your differences. Winning is when you find a level of peace and harmonious solutions that are long lasting for both of you.

I really hope you find the solutions you need to better cope with your future my friend than simply “staying because of the kids”. There is such a sadness to that when there may be so many opportunities to improve the situation for all of you. That won’t come with quick solutions or fixes, it will take the time and commitment to better interpersonal skills and implement good changes.

Best of luck my friend.

[Notwendy]

If you think in terms of winning against, you're going to loose your integrity. The only way to keep that intact is to live according to your values and boundaries, no matter what they choose to do, as well as protect yourself- such as your assets if she abuses that boundary.

It's hard to know your boundaries when living with someone who pushes them, but you know when they have been trod over. One of them is your relationship with your mother. We can't make parents the primary relationship when we have a spouse, but we can still choose to have an important bond with them. Surely your mother wishes that too.

Your boundary ( right to honor your mom on mother's day) has been repeatedly broken. There is no moral rule that says you can not visit your mother. Well, maybe according to your wife there is, but not carved on stone tablets like not lying or stealing is. --- and so is honoring your parents. (or written in whatever your religion/culture holds important- most have a version of these rules)When your wife interferes with you honoring your mother, she is violating your own moral code and wish to see your mother.

Your mother lives far away. Yes, you can see her and yes you can spend the night. Well, you might have an angry wife as a result, but you have also honored your own boundary, and to build boundaries and self esteem, we have to honor them.

Your wife can visit her mom. You visit yours. There may even be room for negotiating bringing the kids, trading off, or taking one or two of them and alternating.

[Pou]

I think that is a difficult question to answer. Does your wife have a formal diagnosis of NPD?

Sociopaths and NPD's can have slightly different approaches than someone with BPD. At least that is my impression from what I have read so far.

I don't think there is such a thing as a fool proof plan. You can cope and try to thrive when things are good. How long has it been since you reviewed the lessons? I can sometimes go through them again and find something new. And sometimes, I review them and get irritated because this isn't what I wanted out of my marriage and my life. <sigh>

I don't have any good answers or ideas but did want to at least offer some words of support.   

I am in the same position as you. I refuse to leave. I have 4 young kids and my husband does contribute and make some things a lot easier. I find it easier to cope when I can remind myself of why I am staying to begin with. How old is your youngest child? There are days when I have sat down and figured out how many years I have left.

Thanks Vortex, my wife is undiagnosed NPD.  I was in a FOG for many years ... .and was really confused and until I understood there was a problem called BPD and then not everything fits there... .for example, she doesn't threaten suicide.  And then I started to read up about NPDs and to my shocking disbelieve, things described matched perfectly.  It is more frightening at the time when I finally learned what I am dealing with.  I always thought if I just bend over a little more, she would come around.  Evidenced by 7 years of Mother's day problem and this is just a small thing compare to another incident when my dad passed.  I have helped her dealing with her dad's illness and funeral.  I wanted to be there for her, because that is what partners do.  4 years after her dad passed, my dad passed, she shuts down completely on me.  She forbid my kids to see my dad while he was in ICU and she forbid we went up to see him for his last thanksgiving.  If I was going to take the kids, she would call the police.  Never before and during my dad's passing that she once expressed any sympathy and during my dad's funeral she had this strange grim / smile on her face (and her mother too... .).  The list goes on ... .and to make it more comical.  Her and her mother did not bury her dad's ashes and when I asked about what they want to do with it, they came up different versions of what "dad" wanted.  I didn't follow up, because I felt they were dodging the question, and it wasn't really my business.  And then shortly after my dad passed, my wife started tell everyone (relatives and friends) that me and my mother block her from burying her dad's ashes.  My suspicion is that her mother has something to do with this made up drama.  That shifted the entire my grieving process for my dad's passing to defending myself and my mother that who in the right mind who ever block anyone from burying anybody?  How does that even compute?  Things like that coincide with the illogical sense of reality and outrageous lies that NPDs will do to grab attention away and suck all the energy out of their targets.   I have 3 kids, ages 7, 4 and 2.  Yes, I too counting down on the days.  But by the time my littlest one goes to college ... .i will be an old man.  But that is ok, sometimes, I think if I only lived and manage my wife's PD well and keep kids somewhat balanced, then I have done my job.  Perhaps my reason for existence is to make sure the kids go on and full fill their potentials.  For a logical person, it doesn't pay to jump the conclusion that your spouse is a PD.  The option to work out problems in a relationship is so limited and extremely difficult ... .why would anyone wants to do that?  That leads me to answer the other replies.

[Pou]

Hey Pou:

I don’t know if your partner is diagnosed or not but you know what they say about making assumptions Pou. Fact is, they are not only dangerous but can so lead you personally (and your partner) in such a bad direction that even the thought of recovering from it is nearly impossible. That doesn’t even begin to address the effects of a totally dysfunctional relationship on the kids.

“I recently read books and watched education materials about NPDs and everyone says ... .run, run fast and run the other way if you are with someone who is NPD.”

You know Pou, it is so absolutely important to ensure the information you’re researching or reading is credible and substantiated through professionalism. I understand fully what you’re saying and in the past when faced with a severe situation was advices by both a psychiatrist in a hospital crises center, a psychologist in a community crisis center and my own therapist that “pack and run immediately is your only option….” All considered I was dealing with a sociopath. Fact is, I already knew they were wrong and their advice was both shallow and subjected to their experiences and negative dealings in other settings without giving consideration to my specific situation. The mental health field really isn’t necessarily any better informed or educated on some Axis II disorders than we are. They also have their stigmatized perceptions and reactions when exposed to these situations.

I might suggest you continue reading and learn more because ultimately it will only be by educating yourself that you will be able to see the opportunities that exist to better your own situation and the others’ in your life affected by this. Narcissist, sociopathic behavior, BPD, or just being in a ‘normal’ non-affected relationship; really learning and putting the ‘lessons’ you find here on this site can only better you as a person dealing with others. That’s the best place to start working on yourself. There’s also a real need to understand that you aren’t going to WIN by thinking you can change your partner – you won’t. You do have the opportunity to change yourself to better suit your situation though or in doing so change the dynamics for your whole family in coping with the differences.

“They (NDPs) seems to be sociopathics on autopilots.”

There are reason that we confuse narcissists and sociopaths because on the outside they seem to share some elements. It’s easily summed up with this recognition: “Sociopaths are narcissistic but narcissists are not sociopaths. Some characteristics of their personalities and motivations behind their actions are very, very different. It’s totally important and necessary to identify or differentiate the two types. It is even more important to identify if a person is borderline and neither of the above; because understanding and learning is vital to finding possible solutions. It is neither a simple nor easy (quick-fix) learning path. Learning and really relating to and understanding Axis I or II disorders is a real life-challenge.

Honestly, the more educated you become the more you will see there are no comparisons to NDP, Sociopathic or Borderline, although our interpretations and misinterpretations of what we see and feel lead us to believe what we are seeing are like in their natures. All though, ( regardless of diagnosis) can be like in their detriments if you don’t truly understand the motivations behind their actions in a personal setting.

“… who here on this board has devised an ingenious plan or actions that can consistency win against NPD's irrational behaviors?  There got to be a way.”

There is one thing I can assure you, because there is an absolute certainty to it Pou: if you want or need to WIN, you’re already on a path that isn’t going to bring you any resolution to your challenges. It isn’t and never is about WINNING in a relationship any more than it is about losing. It’s all about finding solutions that work for both parties to exist in a better situation. If you find that you’re driven by an egotistical need to win with dominance over another person’s spirit or existence it can only bring both of you hardship and pain. In the case of rational thought vs. mental illness it really winning really requires a hugely different personal realization and radical understanding. This is an absolute dealing with a mental illness or personality disorder unless of course it is actually a sociopathic disorder your dealing with because ultimately you might anger them because they aren’t successful with their intents but you aren’t going to hurt them or ‘win’.

It’s only about finding better harmony in your differences. Winning is when you find a level of peace and harmonious solutions that are long lasting for both of you.

I really hope you find the solutions you need to better cope with your future my friend than simply “staying because of the kids”. There is such a sadness to that when there may be so many opportunities to improve the situation for all of you. That won’t come with quick solutions or fixes, it will take the time and commitment to better interpersonal skills and implement good changes.

Best of luck my friend.

Stalwart, thanks for your reply.  Be honest with you, I rather never have to come to realization that my spouse is a NPD.  I do not wish that upon my worst enemy.  I have been careful in asserting that claim.  I have gone through alot and was in a FOG for many years... .If I didn't realize that she has NPD, I probably would have killed myself.  Why?  I am logical and when I see a problem, I see a solution.  That is why I am in the sciences.  I tried very hard to delineate sociopaths and NPDs... .I couldn't really from the books that I read.  The line is not clear.  Perhaps, sociopaths won't dysregulate and won't project and wont gaslight.  Meanwhile, PDs do and then you add the sociopathic component to it.  So in my interpretation, NPDs are worst than sociopaths (if you are in a relationship).  Do not confuse sociopath with psychopath.  Sociopath is someone who doesn't play by the same rules like everyone else because they out right lack the component of empathy in their moral make up. 

About my comments about "winning", it is not against the NPDs.  It is "winning" in the situation.  It is obvious that in a NPD relationship is a no win situation and that is why almost every book about a NPD relationship tells you to sever the tie for it be too toxic and abusive.  No books out there teaches you how to manage it and turn it around so you can "win" ... .now what that definition exactly is, it is not yet clear to me as well.  I am just sick of hearing about coping or run, I want some positive hope that "yes, if you stay with a NPD, you can still win.".  That win has to be a personal win.  Anyone who understands NPD, you know that you can never win with them or against them.  It is like bending a titanium rod.  It is just not possible.  So how would one reshapes his or her experience and turn it around for self ... .at least not feeling a loser all the time.  Being manipulated, controlled and abused ... .right?  that is all it is.  I think there ought to be materials out there to take the little personal victories in a NPD relationship and reaffirm them.  That is all what I was asking ... .

Regarding your comment about finding harmony ... .not sure if you can ever achieve that with a NPD.  I like to hear what others who have a NPD relationship have to say about this.  When I was in a FOG and even today, that is what I have been trying to do.  What I discovered is that NPD see your attempt for harmony as a weakness and they will jump on it and distort your attempts and even make up things that never happened to throw you off balance.  They feed off that energy and they define their existence by doing such strange and abusive things.  I think one has to be front and center living with a NPD and read lots about it in order to really appreciate what I am saying.  Every day, I see her, I see myself living in a twilightzone.  And this is not an overstatement.  It is the reality of the situation that I am living with everyday. 

 

[Pou]

If you think in terms of winning against, you're going to loose your integrity. The only way to keep that intact is to live according to your values and boundaries, no matter what they choose to do, as well as protect yourself- such as your assets if she abuses that boundary.

It's hard to know your boundaries when living with someone who pushes them, but you know when they have been trod over. One of them is your relationship with your mother. We can't make parents the primary relationship when we have a spouse, but we can still choose to have an important bond with them. Surely your mother wishes that too.

Your boundary ( right to honor your mom on mother's day) has been repeatedly broken. There is no moral rule that says you can not visit your mother. Well, maybe according to your wife there is, but not carved on stone tablets like not lying or stealing is. --- and so is honoring your parents. (or written in whatever your religion/culture holds important- most have a version of these rules)When your wife interferes with you honoring your mother, she is violating your own moral code and wish to see your mother.

Your mother lives far away. Yes, you can see her and yes you can spend the night. Well, you might have an angry wife as a result, but you have also honored your own boundary, and to build boundaries and self esteem, we have to honor them.

Your wife can visit her mom. You visit yours. There may even be room for negotiating bringing the kids, trading off, or taking one or two of them and alternating.

Notwendy, not sure if I was being clear enough about my situation.  I am all for taking terms and come up with solutions.  My NPDw shuts down when comes to that and she will only do what she wants.  As I said in my post, this went on for 7 years and this is not only for mother's day.  I helped in finding her mother a place in the area, hoping that this way she and our kids can see her more and then in return we can have some more visits for my mother.  We are not that far away from my mother, she is only 3 hours away, but making up there once a year and seeing her 2x a year for the past 7 years is just doesn't cut it.  And on top of that, my wife contacts my sisters and tell them how I block her mother from visiting, meanwhile we visit her and she comes to our house anytime she wants.  So how do you address this overly lies?  you have to understand, sociopath and NPDs do not obey by the same reality as you and me.  They make up things and they will lie to your face and they will broadcast the lies.  They will lie with tears and convictions ... .normal people will never get it.  I certainly didn't get it until I live through it.  You can not make this stuff up.  You just can't.  If I didn't have a NPDw, I probably would look a post like mine and said to myself ... ."this guy must be nuts, no one in the world is like that."  That is the reason that other than this board, I don't talk to anyone about it.  In the past year, my NPDw launched an alienation campaign against me, spreading lies about me to my family, common friends and even to people who I don't know at her work.  So I had to address her issue to my sisters and one of my NPDw's friend.  There were lots of strange accusations that even when they are not consistent with the truth sociopath and NPDs have not problem panting them.  Until you meet one, then you will understand.  I am sorry to say that I know too much... .I really don't need to and never dreamed that I would have to.   My coping would be through educating myself, but would like to feel winning once a while just to keep the hope up.  That is why I posted this thread. 

[vortex of confusion]

My NPDw shuts down when comes to that and she will only do what she wants. 

Sounds like you need to learn how to be a better salesman.  Seriously though. It really helps to think of them as little kids. Aside from force or outright demanding, how do you get a kid to get excited about something? You sell them on it and tell them how much benefit they will get out of it. You find ways to sweeten the deal as often as possible so that everyone mutually benefits. 

We are not that far away from my mother, she is only 3 hours away, but making up there once a year and seeing her 2x a year for the past 7 years is just doesn't cut it.

Then make plans to see your mom with or without your wife. I have gotten to a point where I typically visit my family without my husband and kids. That used to bug the crap out of me. Now, I go with it. Every now and then, I will try to include my husband and kids but that is usually only for a special occasion.  

And on top of that, my wife contacts my sisters and tell them how I block her mother from visiting, meanwhile we visit her and she comes to our house anytime she wants.  So how do you address this overly lies? 

My first question is "How do you know all of this?" Are your sisters running to you and telling you this stuff? If so, set a boundary with them. I have a whole lot of years of experience with people calling me and telling me that this person said this or that. Some of it was about me and some of it was about what other people are doing. If my brother or mom want to call me and give me a report about what somebody else is saying or doing, I try to shut down the conversation with stuff like, "You know what. I don't want to hear about this stuff." Or, find a way to excuse yourself. You can't control what other people say or do. Do your sisters know that your MIL comes to visit all the time? If so, then they know the truth. Have you ever asked your sisters anything like, "Hey, does that make sense?" If your sisters are aware of the situation and you call their attention to the truth, they are likely to say, "You are right. We know that isn't the truth." And then life goes on and people learn that your wife is unreliable when it comes to the truth. Because you haven't bought into it and discourage the whole triangulation crap, you win!

you have to understand, sociopath and NPDs do not obey by the same reality as you and me.  They make up things and they will lie to your face and they will broadcast the lies.  They will lie with tears and convictions ... .normal people will never get it.  I certainly didn't get it until I live through it.  You can not make this stuff up.  You just can't.  If I didn't have a NPDw, I probably would look a post like mine and said to myself ... ."this guy must be nuts, no one in the world is like that." 

I totally get it. My husband is pretty light on the scales but my mother and other family members are exactly as you describe. They make up lies. They are so good about making up stuff that they believe their own lies. Their reality is very, very broken. All you can do is develop a thicker skin and protect yourself.

 My coping would be through educating myself, but would like to feel winning once a while just to keep the hope up.  That is why I posted this thread. 

Educating yourself is good but it has to go even further than that. I think that in order to survive and start thriving, you have to change your attitude a bit. I am not sure how to explain this. I feel like I win sometimes by virtue of the fact that I can find some humor in the absurdities. I feel like I win when I quietly do things for myself. I feel like I win when I find ways to circumvent my husband all together. And, with somebody that has NPD or is a bit of a sociopath, people will eventually figure them out. It may take a really long time for others to figure it out because they are so good at playing the victim. And, they are really, really good at making you look like you are bat crap crazy because they rarely tell the whole story.

I follow a couple of pages on FB that are dedicated to NPD and narcissism and sociopath type stuff. One of the only ways to "win" is to not play the game and not respond. A lot of the stuff that they do is done to bait others. They can bait you, get you to react, and then they get to play the victim because you reacted the way a normal person would react. Don't react. They will come unhinged if they see that you are not buying into their little games. If you get to a place where you can NOT react, then it is quite likely that she will keep changing the rules. If she can't get the reaction that she wants, which is to stir up drama, etc. then she will either leave or knock it off. You have to take "normal" out of the equation all together. 

[vortex of confusion]

Oh, I forgot to mention a funny meme I saw the other day. It was a picture of a guy answer the telephone as a helpline operator. The caption was:

Narcissist hotline, how can you help me today?

[Pou]

My NPDw shuts down when comes to that and she will only do what she wants. 

Sounds like you need to learn how to be a better salesman.  Seriously though. It really helps to think of them as little kids. Aside from force or outright demanding, how do you get a kid to get excited about something? You sell them on it and tell them how much benefit they will get out of it. You find ways to sweeten the deal as often as possible so that everyone mutually benefits. 

We are not that far away from my mother, she is only 3 hours away, but making up there once a year and seeing her 2x a year for the past 7 years is just doesn't cut it.

Then make plans to see your mom with or without your wife. I have gotten to a point where I typically visit my family without my husband and kids. That used to bug the crap out of me. Now, I go with it. Every now and then, I will try to include my husband and kids but that is usually only for a special occasion.  

And on top of that, my wife contacts my sisters and tell them how I block her mother from visiting, meanwhile we visit her and she comes to our house anytime she wants.  So how do you address this overly lies? 

My first question is "How do you know all of this?" Are your sisters running to you and telling you this stuff? If so, set a boundary with them. I have a whole lot of years of experience with people calling me and telling me that this person said this or that. Some of it was about me and some of it was about what other people are doing. If my brother or mom want to call me and give me a report about what somebody else is saying or doing, I try to shut down the conversation with stuff like, "You know what. I don't want to hear about this stuff." Or, find a way to excuse yourself. You can't control what other people say or do. Do your sisters know that your MIL comes to visit all the time? If so, then they know the truth. Have you ever asked your sisters anything like, "Hey, does that make sense?" If your sisters are aware of the situation and you call their attention to the truth, they are likely to say, "You are right. We know that isn't the truth." And then life goes on and people learn that your wife is unreliable when it comes to the truth. Because you haven't bought into it and discourage the whole triangulation crap, you win!

you have to understand, sociopath and NPDs do not obey by the same reality as you and me.  They make up things and they will lie to your face and they will broadcast the lies.  They will lie with tears and convictions ... .normal people will never get it.  I certainly didn't get it until I live through it.  You can not make this stuff up.  You just can't.  If I didn't have a NPDw, I probably would look a post like mine and said to myself ... ."this guy must be nuts, no one in the world is like that." 

I totally get it. My husband is pretty light on the scales but my mother and other family members are exactly as you describe. They make up lies. They are so good about making up stuff that they believe their own lies. Their reality is very, very broken. All you can do is develop a thicker skin and protect yourself.

 My coping would be through educating myself, but would like to feel winning once a while just to keep the hope up.  That is why I posted this thread. 

Educating yourself is good but it has to go even further than that. I think that in order to survive and start thriving, you have to change your attitude a bit. I am not sure how to explain this. I feel like I win sometimes by virtue of the fact that I can find some humor in the absurdities. I feel like I win when I quietly do things for myself. I feel like I win when I find ways to circumvent my husband all together. And, with somebody that has NPD or is a bit of a sociopath, people will eventually figure them out. It may take a really long time for others to figure it out because they are so good at playing the victim. And, they are really, really good at making you look like you are bat crap crazy because they rarely tell the whole story.

I follow a couple of pages on FB that are dedicated to NPD and narcissism and sociopath type stuff. One of the only ways to "win" is to not play the game and not respond. A lot of the stuff that they do is done to bait others. They can bait you, get you to react, and then they get to play the victim because you reacted the way a normal person would react. Don't react. They will come unhinged if they see that you are not buying into their little games. If you get to a place where you can NOT react, then it is quite likely that she will keep changing the rules. If she can't get the reaction that she wants, which is to stir up drama, etc. then she will either leave or knock it off. You have to take "normal" out of the equation all together. 

Vortex, thanks for your responses. 

I have to start making plans to see my mom on my own... .but even that, it flips her out if I go more than she expected.  She expects me to do day trips and that is tough.  Also, my mom is past her 80s and the thought that she won't get to know my kids bothers me alot.  It constantly remind me that I am such a big loser that I can not even have my mom and my kids get together and have a relationship.  Meanwhile her mother is nearby and see us all the time (that she claims that we don't).  My sister didn't tell me about my wife for a long time and thought that my wife was in the right for a while until they started to piece things together and thought they were strange comments.  And then we had a get together last year and my wife was giving the "evil eyes" and put up a depressive face that was so obviously strange.  Both my sisters were concerned and thought that was very odd on my mom's birthday.  The finally revealed the email communications that my wife went behind my back.  Which I know my wife also does the same to our common friends fabricating stuff about me.  Keep in mind we spend over $10k every year to visit her relatives in Cali for 7 to 10 days eachtime and although my other sister is also out there, she prohibited us visiting my sister's family and only allowed once in the past 4 years.  My sisters tried to be nice to her and as any normal human being would, thought my wife may have mis understand certain things and kindly provided "reality check" pointing out facts.  Of course, a NPD has its own agenda and really doesn't care for reality. 

For anyone who lived with one, you would understand.  It is their reality or there is no reality at all.  Lying is very common for them and it is sociopathic.  It is a character thing and not a psychological thing.  I reflect and I take full responsibility for putting myself in this situation.  I just feel bad for the collateral damages that my stupidity has caused pain in others.  I picked the wrong person and entrusted my life in the wrong hands.  I tried to talk to her and let her know that it is ok if we can part our ways, but need to be civilized and put kids first.  I get silent treatment and this look at me "I am superior than you."... .very strange... .odd and incomprehensible.  Once she calmly asked me "why?  do you think I am cheating on you?  and if I am, why wouldn't I tell you?".  I thought that answer was really strange.  I thought, if she had told me, that wouldn't be "cheating" and I believe that is the thrill that NPD gets off from too.  So if I find out her cheating today, it won't surprise me a bit.  by all counts we are married by kids and no loving relationship at all.  life is funny, not what I thought I would ever get into and wouldn't bet my life on ever being in this situation.  Here i am and got to deal with it.  Maybe I am just not a good enough salesman ... .still does that mean I have to live this way?   

[Stalwart]

Hey Pou:

I can so understand and relate to the problems you've had with your relationship. We all seek hope. For me without a vision of some type of progression with regard to hope it would certainly be a darker outlook and far more difficult to manage. I truly believe if a person is dedicated to staying and tackling the huge problem of changing their dynamics in their relationship that progress can be made toward a more harmonious situation. I also know that’s a tough and tall order when dealing with an Axis ll disorder regardless of the classification. It is when doors can be opened that there is hope in any situation. It comes down to unlocking those doors when the keys are really hard to find sometimes. It comes down to determination to create a better lot for yourself and for your kids. It has to be found not by succumbing to a situation but challenging it in a healthy way.

I’d just like to point out again that correct diagnosis is everything to finding solutions and better understanding what options or strategies may exist. I’d also like to point out that a diagnosis of borderline is not contingent on the criteria of self-harm or suicidal tendencies. The standards of recognition are set on meeting five out of the nine criteria. I can tell you that my wife is absolutely diagnosed and progressively successful in therapy with borderline personality disorder and wouldn’t even consider intentionally causing a paper cut to herself. Suicidal, absolutely not. Many of us have the same situations of not having the real challenges that come with those additional threats.

Does your partner recognize she has had challenges with relationships and situations throughout her life? Does she know she experiences more problems than a ‘normal’ person does or that she’s not the same as ‘other’ people? Does she recognize a pattern in her past failed relationships with spouses and friends? I’m sure a narcissist wouldn’t outwardly admit or reflect that, but does she? Has she ever had any kind of therapy or is she open to therapy if she believes it can help her achieve goals without the need to say or recognize there is a ‘mental illness’ involved?

There’s a reason narcissism is classed into the dark triad and borderline is not, although both really have so many similarities when it comes to coping with relationships and interpersonal skills. Both also have so many extreme underlying and conflicting emotional affects that are buried so deep they’re difficult sometimes to determine or rationalize. But neither is hopeless my friend. Both have successful  therapies and drugs that may help with the comorbid difficulties the disorder is responsible for. In both cases, those afflicted can learn better management skills and coping skills to exist better in relationships.

Staying for kids is a noble and worthy, (that is meant with its true intent of being admirable) effort, but if that’s your inevitability that you’ve chosen than why not the possibility of also staying  for yourself? If flight is not an option than standing firm and fighting to better your relationship and personal situation has to be to tackle the challenge in a healthy way for you and those kids. It is not easy but is possible and doable. there is hope for better to be achieved.

You’re in science my friend. Everything within the natural laws are indeed possible. However, not everything is probable. So if you were to analyze your chances of affecting your own circumstances in a more positive direction how do you think the p value would factor into your personal hypothesis of success doing that? Is it probable that you’d be able or willing to take on that challenge to improve your lot?

Crap, some of these posts get too long, sorry I key in the 70 wpm range and sometimes just have too much to question I guess. Rest assured it because I care Pou.

[Pou]

Hey Pou:

I can so understand and relate to the problems you've had with your relationship. We all seek hope. For me without a vision of some type of progression with regard to hope it would certainly be a darker outlook and far more difficult to manage. I truly believe if a person is dedicated to staying and tackling the huge problem of changing their dynamics in their relationship that progress can be made toward a more harmonious situation. I also know that’s a tough and tall order when dealing with an Axis ll disorder regardless of the classification. It is when doors can be opened that there is hope in any situation. It comes down to unlocking those doors when the keys are really hard to find sometimes. It comes down to determination to create a better lot for yourself and for your kids. It has to be found not by succumbing to a situation but challenging it in a healthy way.

I’d just like to point out again that correct diagnosis is everything to finding solutions and better understanding what options or strategies may exist. I’d also like to point out that a diagnosis of borderline is not contingent on the criteria of self-harm or suicidal tendencies. The standards of recognition are set on meeting five out of the nine criteria. I can tell you that my wife is absolutely diagnosed and progressively successful in therapy with borderline personality disorder and wouldn’t even consider intentionally causing a paper cut to herself. Suicidal, absolutely not. Many of us have the same situations of not having the real challenges that come with those additional threats.

Does your partner recognize she has had challenges with relationships and situations throughout her life? Does she know she experiences more problems than a ‘normal’ person does or that she’s not the same as ‘other’ people? Does she recognize a pattern in her past failed relationships with spouses and friends? I’m sure a narcissist wouldn’t outwardly admit or reflect that, but does she? Has she ever had any kind of therapy or is she open to therapy if she believes it can help her achieve goals without the need to say or recognize there is a ‘mental illness’ involved?

There’s a reason narcissism is classed into the dark triad and borderline is not, although both really have so many similarities when it comes to coping with relationships and interpersonal skills. Both also have so many extreme underlying and conflicting emotional affects that are buried so deep they’re difficult sometimes to determine or rationalize. But neither is hopeless my friend. Both have successful  therapies and drugs that may help with the comorbid difficulties the disorder is responsible for. In both cases, those afflicted can learn better management skills and coping skills to exist better in relationships.

Staying for kids is a noble and worthy, (that is meant with its true intent of being admirable) effort, but if that’s your inevitability that you’ve chosen than why not the possibility of also staying  for yourself? If flight is not an option than standing firm and fighting to better your relationship and personal situation has to be to tackle the challenge in a healthy way for you and those kids. It is not easy but is possible and doable. there is hope for better to be achieved.

You’re in science my friend. Everything within the natural laws are indeed possible. However, not everything is probable. So if you were to analyze your chances of affecting your own circumstances in a more positive direction how do you think the p value would factor into your personal hypothesis of success doing that? Is it probable that you’d be able or willing to take on that challenge to improve your lot?

Crap, some of these posts get too long, sorry I key in the 70 wpm range and sometimes just have too much to question I guess. Rest assured it because I care Pou.

Stalwart, your post is well written and thought out.  Thank you for taking the time to ponder about my issue.  My problems are similar to most of people on this board, sub-classification would be in a NPD relationship (my opinion, undiagnosed).

You asked about if my NPDw recognizes that she has this issue and if she acknowledges that she has this issue in her relationships.  As far as I know is that she may recognize it but doesnt seem to get it that it is her fault... .or if she sees it is her fault, it doesn't seem to bother her.  lack of self reflection and empathy.  In a very strange comparison but is really accurate is the leader at North Korea.  It is obvious that Kim Jong-un is not an idiot.  But he is extremely narcissistic and he would have no shame broadcasting the most ridiculous lies to the world and firmly stand by them.  Ok, you imagine there are people like that (1%) in our society and if you accept that, you will start to see them popping up.  I used to be blind to them, because I didn't know and refused to believe people like this exist.  If I don't see them, my life would be better.  Once I forced to see this world has people like that and it is my spouse, boy ... .imagine the shock and after shock on daily basis.  From what I understand, NPD is a character issue and not a mental issue.  Since a Narcissist or a NPD will never ever think there is something wrong with them and it is everyone else ... .an since they can not feel your pain, they really have no motivation to change.  Also, their brain is wired differently, I can tell you that I have seen fleeting victory smirks on my NPDw's face when I was hurting ... .it was so inexplicable back then when I was in FOG, now it all makes sense.  So I learn how to control my pain and not making it obvious to her ... .I learned that NPD feeds on this and gain power from that.  I have to tell you, it is accurate.  You can say that she definitely has "killer instinct" and she is very good at climbing corporate ladder ... .and this should not come to be a surprise.

I am staying for the kids, but also constantly looking for meaning for why life put me here ... .other than just for my kids.  Yes, there is that part of me believing that there is a bigger purpose for me to go through all these pain and suffering and somehow these will all turn around.  It is kind of like a fantasy and hope mixed in one ... .just to keep me staying in this loony tune world with some sanity.  Keep in mind, staying for my kids is not altruistic.  By taking care of my kids and make sure they are good satisfies my own selfish desire to preserve my own genetic pool and make sure they will have a great life.  This makes me happy, so it is really not much of a sacrifice.     

You said:  "You’re in science my friend. Everything within the natural laws are indeed possible. However, not everything is probable. So if you were to analyze your chances of affecting your own circumstances in a more positive direction how do you think the p value would factor into your personal hypothesis of success doing that? Is it probable that you’d be able or willing to take on that challenge to improve your lot?"  Boy, this got my brain running around in circles.  Well said and leaves lots to ponder.  However, to me, statistics is only good for the hindsight and makes sense when looking from distance.  But it serves no real significance to a definitive event that is happening to an individual, of which it would be either 100% or 0%.  I sort of understand what you are saying too ... .maybe the trick is come up with factors that would influence and favor the p value for a better outcome.  That is exactly what I have been trying to do and my motivation to post this thread.  I am looking for those "factors" everyday from everywhere.   

Some days, I question if I am the abnormal ... .then I go into this deep thoughts ... .and self analysis.  Definitely not perfect, made lots of mistakes, but I acknowledge my mistakes and willing to make changes.   

[Stalwart]

Hey Pou:

I wish you contnued luck in determining or finding those p factors. You deserve them. I didn't mean to imply staying for the kids was altruistic, just admirable.

NPD or BPD we both experience much in common with the trials. I was reading an article the other day about genetic heredity rates between BPD and NPD. It was interesting but both have the same root causes. It was even more revealing and interesting reaading about brain imagining conducted on dark triade patients with regards to empathy. down the road but there is hope for advancements in what might be the not too near future.

It would be my greatest wish for you that she could recognize that therapy might help her 'achieve' more and a therapist could pick up on the issues to help address them but it's challenging for most to reach that point.

There are a lot of people here for you Pou, you're not alone. Take solice in your kids and know in your heart you're doing what's right for them and what could be more important to you than knowing that?

You don't need to question yourself my friend. The fact you've made it this far is testament to your character. The most valuable thing I've done in this process of tackling a better life with a BPD for both of us is to recognize my own challenges and step up to a constant committment to improve myself. It's really all we can do.

Know you've got my heart and all my hopes for you though Pou.

[Pou]

Hey Pou:

I wish you contnued luck in determining or finding those p factors. You deserve them. I didn't mean to imply staying for the kids was altruistic, just admirable.

NPD or BPD we both experience much in common with the trials. I was reading an article the other day about genetic heredity rates between BPD and NPD. It was interesting but both have the same root causes. It was even more revealing and interesting reaading about brain imagining conducted on dark triade patients with regards to empathy. down the road but there is hope for advancements in what might be the not too near future.

It would be my greatest wish for you that she could recognize that therapy might help her 'achieve' more and a therapist could pick up on the issues to help address them but it's challenging for most to reach that point.

There are a lot of people here for you Pou, you're not alone. Take solice in your kids and know in your heart you're doing what's right for them and what could be more important to you than knowing that?

You don't need to question yourself my friend. The fact you've made it this far is testament to your character. The most valuable thing I've done in this process of tackling a better life with a BPD for both of us is to recognize my own challenges and step up to a constant committment to improve myself. It's really all we can do.

Know you've got my heart and all my hopes for you though Pou.

Stalwart, Thank you for the awesome words!  You know in the few years, especially during the time of FOG.  I was really really mess up.  I questioned every day if there was something wrong with the way I perceive realities ... .and if it wasn't due to my training in science, which reinforced my objectivity in every situation (or try to very very hard) and developed such confidence ... .I would have lost it.  Then after the FOG, there was a long long phase of denial.  The denial is that it cant be true, if I just wait another day, she would change.  And then there was the little white lies to myself that despite what I have read and learned about PDs, that somehow I would be special and things would turn out differently (still have an element of that).  Finding this forum was really important in keeping my head straight.  Posts like yours really make a difference.  Sometimes, when I go through this alone ... .it can feel like that I have been abandoned by the world and I have to somehow struggle through this.  No end in sight.  Post like yours make me see that although tough, there are people like you get it, understand it, and also looking for answers (that could actually work) ... .all become more logical and not as hopeless as originally felt.  Again, I really appreciate your words and it does make a huge difference.  The study you mentioned is interesting ... .I kind of using my situation as an "experiment".  Now I see my NPDw more like a subject and I carefully observe.  But one thing seems to be the pattern has been that she tends to do or say things that make you think that she is normal ... .and then once she reels you in, she then does something 180 to completely tares that apart.  It is like a cat toying a mouse... .flexing its muscle.  I believe NPDs takes a huge joy in doing that because without the element of empathy as a check point, they are able manipulate emotions ... .once they get how ordinary folks work in managing our emotions.  Thanks again for the excellent thoughts and comments.  Best luck to you as well, my friend. 

[Stalwart]

... .despite what I have read and learned about PDs, that somehow I would be special and things would turn out differently (still have an element of that). 

There's something really important buried in here that maybe you didn't pay enough attention to Pou.

If you don't mind I'd really like to take a minute to point it out my friend.

You haven't come the realization and self-acknowledgement that YOU ARE SPECIAL. So many people here are. Who else honestly could have managed this far and still want to take it on IF YOU WEREN'T SPECIAL and weren't the special person who could do that. Far too many of us here overlook that quality in ourselves when we so deserve to recognize it.

[Pou]

... .despite what I have read and learned about PDs, that somehow I would be special and things would turn out differently (still have an element of that). 

There's something really important buried in here that maybe you didn't pay enough attention to Pou.

If you don't mind I'd really like to take a minute to point it out my friend.

You haven't come the realization and self-acknowledgement that YOU ARE SPECIAL. So many people here are. Who else honestly could have managed this far and still want to take it on IF YOU WEREN'T SPECIAL and weren't the special person who could do that. Far too many of us here overlook that quality in ourselves when we so deserve to recognize it.

Stalwart, you are absolutely right about that so many people here are special. Although shaken ... .I do have this belief that there is a reason why I am destined to this rocky journey.  Not what I would have chosen, but I am continuing to figure out what kind of character building experience that my life has provided.  I remain steady and careful not to be broken, believing next day will be better ... .cautious about my expectations and try to stay real by learning more about what I am dealing with.  Thank you my friend, words like yours and many keep  me strong and believing in that there is a greater purpose in the midst of all these chaos.  Hope all will prevail better in the end for everyone.