So... she sends me a clarification email..while I'm asleep

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

I seem to see her believing she is the boss of me... .or that I am at her beck and call... .robot... .whatever... .

Not sure... .

When I start going down this train of thought, it's usually a good idea to check myself:

Am I reacting to this in ways that say,

"You're not the boss of me... ."

"I am not at your beck and call... ."

"I am not a robot, your robot... ."

Is there a chance she might feel bad and yucky, like you are the boss of her, that she's at your beck and call, robot... .dismissed, disrespected?

formflier,  When I asked for the keys to go somewhere you laughed and said I couldnt drive it because my name is not on it.

She might be a bit melodramatic in her delivery, because her feelings are very strong around this.  My guess would be that she doesn't feel understood or taken seriously by you; like you have all the control.  Like a parent.

Could you both be coming at each other from similar angles?

Sometimes my mom comes flying out of my mouth  

[123Phoebe]

I seem to see her believing she is the boss of me... .or that I am at her beck and call... .robot... .whatever... .

Not sure... .

When I start going down this train of thought, it's usually a good idea to check myself:

Am I reacting to this in ways that say,

"You're not the boss of me... ."

"I am not at your beck and call... ."

"I am not a robot, your robot... ."

Is there a chance she might feel bad and yucky, like you are the boss of her, that she's at your beck and call, robot... .dismissed, disrespected?

formflier,  When I asked for the keys to go somewhere you laughed and said I couldnt drive it because my name is not on it.

She might be a bit melodramatic in her delivery, because her feelings are very strong around this.  My guess would be that she doesn't feel understood or taken seriously by you; like you have all the control.  Like a parent.

Could you both be coming at each other from similar angles?

Sometimes my mom comes flying out of my mouth  

[vortex of confusion]

  Because... .in her mind... .you two are "one." 

For some reason, this made me think of the Bible passage, "two become one".

[GaGrl]

With the logistics involved in a family of 8 children, it would seem there is quite a bit to coordinate daily.  How quickly can this be done?  My thought is that a commitment to just 10 minutes of coordinating tasks, activities, driving, and expectations would go a long way each morning.  Then perhaps another 5-7 minutes in the evening to touch base on what got done, what didn't, what the evening looks like.

As simple as our lives are compared to yours, we both operate with a background of Infantry command and Corporate America (and still right in the middle of it) ... .We have a very quick, very pointed conversation each morning on the priorities for the day. Then he puts me in the car, hands me a mug of hazelnut coffee, and kisses me goodbye (much more flexible schedule than mine, darn his semi-retired soul).

It's a lynch-pin for us... .really works.

We do this often... .but it depends on mood.  There is no standing agreement on this.  We've tried it in the past... .she seemed to feel controlled by it... .similar to other agreements... .she would continue while it suited her... .

I agree with this idea... .and I would rather run it this way... .might broach this again... .it's been a while.

FF

[GaGrl]

OK, I screwed up that re and can't fix it on this Kindle... .look in the middle of the quote.

[formflier]

FF- in your family- massages lead to babies

Yeah!   

[formflier]

 

123phoebe,

Yes... .she has said before... .and regularly... .that I am in control... .bossy... .etc etc.  says it less now.

I've stopped trying to prove that... .or disprove it.

It's just not the case... .

The couple times in counseling this has been explored... .it ended up being her the one that made decisions... .had control... .while I was inviting compromise.


I don't see me wanting to compromise or find a solution that we are both ok with... .as "being in control"... .I believe she may think that is me asserting control and getting what I want.

Compromise is not what I want... .it's what I can live with.

FF

[Notwendy]

I don't see me wanting to compromise or find a solution that we are both ok with... .as "being in control"... .I believe she may think that is me asserting control and getting what I want.

Compromise is not what I want... .it's what I can live with.


It may not be how she sees it. In Patricia Evans' book: Controlling People- she discusses people who are willing to compromise- the team players- and those who see a discussion or a topic brought up as an issue to win, or lose.

I realized that I see things as a team, my H sees a discussion over household tasks as a challenge, to win or lose. My mother also sees people as being on her side or someone else's side. She will order us around telling us to do things ( that she could do herself) but if you ask her how she feels, she really feels victimized in some way.

My H has chosen the traditionally male household tasks and sticks to them rigidly in general. At one point he got weird over the trash. Would not do it unless I helped him. This seemed strange to me- I take it out by myself and he is larger and stronger than I am. Why would he need me to help him?

I had the kitchen to clean after dinner ( my job- something he has argued over so I don't ask him to help) and so I said no. This didn't go well. Now, I just took over the job of the trash. I don't care enough about who does it to fight over it.

I also thought of Vortex's idea- the Biblical " two become one" quote but I don't see this as enmeshment but two individuals joining together spiritually for a common purpose. ( of which there can be many). I am sure that there are many ways to interpret that. I expect that all couples have their differences.

My idea of teamwork was not a necessarily 50-50 split in the home. I expected to have the traditional arrangement. However, I also had hoped for some flexibility between us as would be seen where two people are a team. Emotionally it felt as if we were on opposite teams. Is there is a going back and forth between enmeshment and division instead of a comfortable middle?

[formflier]

 

So what does the book have as the "prescription" if you are with a controlling person that sees each argument as win or loose?

FF

[Notwendy]

I don't think I can summarize it. It is a pretty full book, but a good read. It goes along with her series on verbally abusive people.

What helped me was to see it from the perspective of win or lose, as opposed to team work. It helped me understand how my H was feeling when we discussed these issues. I would recommend the as a good read. I don't think there is one prescription- a move- to make.

I know that it is possible for families to have different roles for men and women. I know of families where there is the reversal- mom at work, dad stay at home. I also know a couple that really do share 50-50 it seems. They both have successful careers. However, I think these roles have emotional baggage for us from our role models. My H was fine with me working, but doing household tasks that he sees as female jobs does something to him emotionally. Actually doing the dishes is no big deal, unless your manhood is attached to that- then it is a big deal.

Sometimes, he will build up a resentment- like over the trash. Once he did it over a car. The cars are his domain- I assumed he wanted to be in charge of the cars but one day he got upset over me not doing what he thought was my part. These things can come out of the blue. Do I build a resentment? Sure, but some things are not worth the fight. It takes 5 minutes to take out the trash.

Your wife may logically understand that her job is essential at the moment. She may even enjoy her job, but the role reversal itself may be bringing out some emotions. IMHO, it may be some emotions that are driving her behavior. Is there some way you can hear her out? Even if you disagree- just let her be heard?

[formflier]

Is there some way you can hear her out? Even if you disagree- just let her be heard?

I hope so... .  That is the point... .goal of a nice... .long in person chat.  I'll be posting a small update here in a bit... .but really... .no more big new drama.

From one point of view... .it appears she has been picking up different tools to try to get a rise out of me... .  and not getting what she is looking for.

So... .somehow... .I want... .hope to give her a healthy... .emotional boost... .

FF

[MaroonLiquid]

From one point of view... .it appears she has been picking up different tools to try to get a rise out of me... .  and not getting what she is looking for.

So... .somehow... .I want... .hope to give her a healthy... .emotional boost... .

FF

I hear you on this.  Trying to get a rise out of us seems par for the course... .

[formflier]

So... .last night was interesting.

Both cars got aligned... .rotated... .that seems all good... .one was out pretty good and drives much better... .straighter.

Wife gave no indication of when she would be home... .most of the time we take care of ourselves with food... .when off with another kid like that... .unless prior arrangements.

So... .745ish... .she comes strolling in the door... ."I'm starved... .what are we all going to eat... ."  Most had already snacked or had light dinner. I was waiting on her to get home to figure out if I was going to have a heavy dinner... .or not... .I had reached out via phone with no success... .

Anyway... .I'm about 80% on the stuff she wants done.  Living room... .was totally done... .with some deep cleaning on wood floors.  Basically... .unknown randoom goo here and there was made to go away with "goo gone"... .that stuff is great.  Someone had put tape on floor... .and left residue.

Kitchen... .instead of mopping... .couple kids and I used stiff scrub brushes and did the grout lines in the kitchen.  Wow! It looks great... .and will force the laundry room to be done next... .it is next door.

One of my kids was working on bathroom when she got home.  It appears she went upstairs and pulled him off the job... .

Anyway... .she went through kitchen a couple times... .as I was making some dinner and finally said... ."kitchen looks great!... ."  I said thanks.

She asked what we used to clean floor and I showed her the stiff brushes... .she asked why we didn't use the grout pads (not sure exact name... .)... .and I said I tried them... .but generally though the brushes were quicker... .more effective.

her:  "So... .seems like we know someone else who says that brushes are better... ."  (one of my alleged ho's has a cleaning company... .I met her when I hired her cleaning company for a Navy base... .years ago... .)  I followed up by saying... ."I'm not that impressed with the smoothness of the grout... .on smoother grout I like the grout pads... .on the rougher stuff... .I like the brushes... ."  (this is true... .and I wanted to not just ignore her comment)

to me... .this was her reaching for "other woman tool" to try to create drama.

Dinner seemed to go fine.

By bedtime she was really tired... .warned me that she might not be awake more than a couple minutes... .so I hurried through a shower and hoped in bed with her.  

I asked if she would like a massage (yep... .I'm going there... .) she seems suspicious.  I said I appreciated the foot rub on the couch and wanted to return favor.  So... .I massaged her for about 10-15 minutes... .light talk... .and we went to sleep... .no sex... .no attempt on my part.

This morning... .nice wakeup and snuggle.  I am downstairs fixing breakfast... .and she comes blowing through the kitchen... .alleging that I know the real reason why we are having a block party (couple guys are getting everyone on street together... .I'm not involved... .) and that after my two hour walk... .when I came home with no sweat... .she knows that I was "hanging out" with someone that knows about the block party... ."

I said  "I saw xyz and his kids when I was out walking... .we talked briefly... ."  xyz is one of the ringleaders.  I had already let her know this the other night... .

She huffed and walked off... .

I asked later if she wanted biscuits... .she said "I might have a yogurt... ."  

I'm pretty sure the left for work without eating... .

So... .that's where we are now.

Should I just ask her to talk this afternoon... .and try to listen for a while?  

FF

[Notwendy]

FF, consider how much of this might be your feelings?

I think that men, in general, see most men in more traditional gender roles in families. In my family and my H's both fathers worked, moms were home. My H's mom basically did everything. My mom, not sure what she did, but we still had the traditional model.

I didn't set out to be a SAHM. I wanted a career, although I also wanted to have flexibility to be at home at least a good part of the time. That certainly limited options. At one point we decided that me being home was the best situation. I am grateful that I had this time with the kids, yet it took a toll on my self esteem. My job was a source of affirmation- I did a good job, had ( albeit a smaller) a paycheck. Once at home, people would say "why are you not working" "when are you going back to work" - as if I wasn't working? If my H made digs at me- that would be felt very strongly as when he made a comment about the house or kids, it was about me and my "job". If I were to dare walk into his workplace and make comments about his job, he would be undertandably furious.

It surprised me how invalidated my mother felt with my father being " someone" at work and her being either his wife or our mother, but without a sense of who she was. I imagine that is even exaggerated in someone who has a poor sense of self as it is.

I don't know if I am reading too much into your posts, but I get a sense of resentment on the part of your wife- perhaps from her time as a SAHM and now since she is working. For you, I get the sense that you are feeling like she sees you as a servant - you are not the boss of me-. However, not to be facetious- I would say "welcome to the club" of SAH parents. I don't see this as a real thing- it is of great value and ideal service to raise a family and run a home. Unfortunately, I don't think society values it, and this can affect our sense of self esteem. However, I realized that it was my ego I had to contend with too.

[formflier]

FF, consider how much of this might be your feelings?

Yep... .I've thought about that... .but there has been an undeniable shift her her use of "bait"... .or those kinds of things.

I'm trying not to react to it... .or react badly... .hoping to find a way to validate.

I like being at home... .I like being in the work world.

Here is the thing... .I've had a career... .loved it... .and retired.  I'm open to lots of possibilities for the future... .I'm not seeing many... .any  paths that aren't satisfying to me.

not sure if I responded to your point... .or question... .but those are my feelings.

There are times when she asks me nicely... .properly... .to do things... .so ... .she has the skill... .

FF

[Notwendy]

FF- on your breakfast discussion.

This is her mood, not yours. If she is upset about something then it is her responsibility to deal with her feelings or tell you or not.

You asked if she wanted a biscuit- well that was nice, but she didn't. Ok she can choose to eat or not. Left the house without eating? She can do that too.

I know that when we live with someone with BPD, we tend to read the signals, anticipate the storm. I clued into this because I am sensitive to my H being irritated. In T, I was told to leave his feelings to him. As long as I would try things to manage his feelings- keep things calm, I was keeping him from managing his own.

So she's pissy. It could be the underlying resentment, or nothing. Maybe she's irritated over something else. IMHO, I would let it be unless she chose to tell me. It isn't easy to hold on to our own emotions in the face of their moods, but I think this is what we need to do, and let them be.

[vortex of confusion]

Yep... .I've thought about that... .but there has been an undeniable shift her her use of "bait"... .or those kinds of things.

There is a shift in her use of bait because the old bait doesn't work. You are controlling the situation by not taking the bait. You have changed the way things happen. She is likely a bit confused. She used to be able to push your buttons and get a response. Now, you aren't taking the bait and aren't responding. Do you even care that she exists now? You have changed. What is the reason for that change? From her perspective, it could be all sorts of scary things like you being with another woman, fraternizing with the neighbor guys to do some kind of scary guy stuff, or who knows what else she is making up in her mind? (I know you care that she exists. I threw that question out there because that might be part of her underlying feeling. It is just a guess.)

I'm trying not to react to it... .or react badly... .hoping to find a way to validate.

I have a vague thought here that I am not quite sure how to explain. It seems like you are really insistent on validation. That is a good thing. The problem that I have with the over-emphasis on validation is that it can sometimes come across as "You can only have feelings if I validate them" and that has the opposite impact. I am saying this because my husband's sponsor has given him a few lectures/etc. about giving me the space to feel my feelings. It is soo frustrating to try to have a conversation with my husband about serious stuff only to have him say stuff like, "You have ever right to your feelings. I can see why you would be mad. blah, blah, blah" He sounds like a friggin' parrot or something. I know that when I have tried to validate him at different times it has come across as invalidating. No matter how many different ways I have tried to validate, I can't seem to pull it off because it isn't sincere. I get much better results when I am sincere and honest. If he is talking about some feeling of his that I don't understand, I say, "I don't understand how you feel. I am confused. I can't imagine what it is you must be dealing with."

I know that I have changed how I communicate with him and I know that it has had a lot of impact on our overall ability to communicate as a couple. I think the biggest change overall was that I lost my attitude.

There are times when she asks me nicely... .properly... .to do things... .so ... .she has the skill... .

I groaned when I read this. You have said that she treats you like a child that isn't hers. You are talking about her like SHE is a child. This is how mothers talk about toddlers, not their spouses.

And, it leads me to wondering what "proper" looks like to you. Is she required to say please?

You have said that you didn't agree to certain things. What does agreement look like to you? I can see how she might be upset. She sends you a list of things that she would like to have done. (Sure, it is a bit dictatorial.) You don't respond or acknowledge what she has asked. Instead, you deflect and tell her that you would love to talk about it. Now, it seems like you are not doing things because you didn't agree to them. What do you agree to? How is your wife going to know what you agree to and what you don't agree to?

[formflier]

So she's pissy. It could be the underlying resentment, or nothing. Maybe she's irritated over something else. IMHO, I would let it be unless she chose to tell me. It isn't easy to hold on to our own emotions in the face of their moods, but I think this is what we need to do, and let them be.

Excellent point... .!

FF

[formflier]

And, it leads me to wondering what "proper" looks like to you. Is she required to say please?

You have said that you didn't agree to certain things. What does agreement look like to you? I can see how she might be upset. She sends you a list of things that she would like to have done. (Sure, it is a bit dictatorial.) You don't respond or acknowledge what she has asked. Instead, you deflect and tell her that you would love to talk about it. Now, it seems like you are not doing things because you didn't agree to them. What do you agree to? How is your wife going to know what you agree to and what you don't agree to?

All good questions... .

Proper... .is... .at this stage... .pretty much anything that indicates a request... .ANYTHING... .as opposed to a statement or direction.

"Hey... .I was hoping you could get xy and z done today... ."  (while not the way I want it... .I don't see any way to construe that as a command... .)

As opposed to

"do xyz today"

"do xyz today... .I've asked that you do this for x days now... .I figured you would have learned your lesson... .etc etc"

and I'm going... ."request? huh"

OK... .so you've asked... .to me... .if it was in my control

"Let's chat about priorities for the day"

"Ok"

I'm thinking about 123.  Ok good... .I'm looking at abc... .  Great... .I'm onboard with that list.  Is 1 your top priority?  OK... .great... .  Love you... .I'll do the best I can. 

2 minutes... .in and out... .tops... .probably less.

Wife will know what I agree to because say "I agree to that... ."... .or I'm onboard with that list... .or some other acknowledgement that we are looking at something the same way.

Maybe... .one alibi here... .is that I'm a communications major... .and have spent most of my professional life studying... .making sure that 10s of thousands of people are communicating "properly"... .or "effectively".   Basically... .that what the admiral says... .gets to the front line sailors... .

So... .I notice things... .such as a claim that a request was made... .when it was a directive... .and vice versa.  Language matters... .to me anyway.

Just a thought... .if I didn't answer everything... .ask away again... .

FF

[Notwendy]

There are times when she asks me nicely... .properly... .to do things... .so ... .she has the skill... .

I groaned when I read this. You have said that she treats you like a child that isn't hers. You are talking about her like SHE is a child. This is how mothers talk about toddlers, not their spouses.

And, it leads me to wondering what "proper" looks like to you. Is she required to say please?

You have said that you didn't agree to certain things. What does agreement look like to you? I can see how she might be upset. She sends you a list of things that she would like to have done. (Sure, it is a bit dictatorial.) You don't respond or acknowledge what she has asked. Instead, you deflect and tell her that you would love to talk about it. Now, it seems like you are not doing things because you didn't agree to them. What do you agree to? How is your wife going to know what you agree to and what you don't agree to?


This is a good point. One thing I wonder is, once having the BPD label, that your wife is in a place where she isn't taken seriously. Not everything is BPD although the emotionality from BPD can make things harder.

It took me a long time to have empathy for my mother, and also see her as separate from the relationship with my father. It probably took me becoming an adult to understand how she feels, and not from a resentful place. She was the one with the issues, even if the family tried to hide it- she knew it and we knew it. My father's part in this was not as obvious. Hearing her side- even if it isn't all accurate was enlightening. Once you are labeled as having the issue, people tend to not take you seriously.

My H can easily feel he is being ordered around when he is not. Maybe this is his coming from a military family background- where people are being ordered around, and there is a rank. My H doesn't want to be the enlisted man in the family and neither do I, but sometimes a request is just that, not an order. It makes me crazy when my H says " You didn't say this right!". How am I supposed to say something? I really don't know. Some times, it just isn't worth asking at all if I think it will lead to being berated for how I say it.

[Fian]

My wife and I have this discussion as well.  She blames me for ordering her around.  She wants me to use the word "please".  I normally make a request in the form of a question - "Could you do X for me?"  In my mind I am thinking I am making a request, in her mind the absence of "please" is an order.

[Notwendy]

This is why I think these things have strong emotional attachments to them. It is part of the walking on eggshells. Something not significant to us might hurt them, and vice versa.

If we were on the same sports team, and a team mate shouted " Give me the ball" we wouldn't yell back " You didn't say PLEASE!" we'd just go with it.

If we feel a sense of one upmanship, then this might feel like an order.

[vortex of confusion]

Proper... .is... .at this stage... .pretty much anything that indicates a request... .ANYTHING... .as opposed to a statement or direction.

"Hey... .I was hoping you could get xy and z done today... ."  (while not the way I want it... .I don't see any way to construe that as a command... .)

As opposed to

"do xyz today"

"do xyz today... .I've asked that you do this for x days now... .I figured you would have learned your lesson... .etc etc"

and I'm going... ."request? huh"

Why are you so caught up in HOW she says things? It almost comes across that you are more concerned about how she is saying things rather than hearing what you are saying. Is giving you a list of stuff to do really that dictatorial? I don't fully understand how that is dictatorial.

At any point, have you made an attempt to do 100% of the things that are on her list? I know that you are resistant to doing the things on the list. I am hearing that you are resistant for the following reasons:

1. She didn't ask properly.

2. It doesn't matter if you do everything on the list, she is still going to complain.

3. Doing everything on the list will be giving her too much power and will validate her power over you, which is something that you are trying to combat.

Am I close on any of these? Did I miss anything?

Which of these things involve boundaries? Which of these things involve values/gender roles/power plays? Which of these things involve pure stubbornness?

I'm thinking about 123.  Ok good... .I'm looking at abc... .  Great... .I'm onboard with that list.  Is 1 your top priority?  OK... .great... .  Love you... .I'll do the best I can. 

2 minutes... .in and out... .tops... .probably less.

Wife will know what I agree to because say "I agree to that... ."... .or I'm onboard with that list... .or some other acknowledgement that we are looking at something the same way.

This scenario assumes that the two of you will agree. It is quite obvious that the two of you do not agree on what the priorities are. How does she know that you do NOT agree? I may have missed something in what I have read so far. I have not seen you clearly state, "I am NOT going to do those things." I have seen  you mention deflecting. I have seen you mention that you didn't agree to it. If she sends you a to do list, is it possible to respond and say, "I will try to do x, y, and z on the list. I will not be doing a, b, c." I realize that I don't have all of the details and am basing this on what you have said. It seems like there are times when you pretty much leave her hanging. That has to be frustrating.

Maybe... .one alibi here... .is that I'm a communications major... .and have spent most of my professional life studying... .making sure that 10s of thousands of people are communicating "properly"... .or "effectively".   Basically... .that what the admiral says... .gets to the front line sailors... .

What does your education tell you to do when two people are vying for the position of admiral? Studying how to make sure that 10s of thousands of people are communicating properly is not how to deal with your wife. She is not 10s of thousands of people. You married her and have 8 kids with her. If you approach communication with her like you would approach communicating with 10s of thousands of people, no wonder she is so frustrated. Neither of you are front line sailors. Neither of you are admirals. How does your communication degree tell you to handle dealing with two admirals that can't seem to agree on who is the boss?

So... .I notice things... .such as a claim that a request was made... .when it was a directive... .and vice versa.  Language matters... .to me anyway.

Think about the difference between these two statements:

Take out the trash.

Will you please take out the trash.

I agree with you that language is important. I have gone round and round with my husband about choosing his words more carefully. His default is critical. His default seems to be a bit bossy. At some point, I had to put that aside. I was so busy worrying about word choice and language that I was missing a whole lot of other stuff. Think about whether or not you want to draw the line in the sand over whether or not she makes a directive or a request. It might be worth it to think about why that is so important to you.

[formflier]

If we were on the same sports team, and a team mate shouted " Give me the ball" we wouldn't yell back " You didn't say PLEASE!" we'd just go with it.

So... .in this scenario... .my mind went here.  If a team mate shouted this at me... .and there was history of that teammate effectively using the ball... .I would do it without thinking.

If I saw a better play... .I might pass the ball to someone else.

No... .I would never say please... .or demand it... .it's not appropriate for that scenario... .IMO.

FF

[Notwendy]

But that team mate is your wife, and you have the choice of giving her the ball, or doing something else with it. However, the second choice - if you decided you had a better idea- could invalidate her.

Maybe you have better ideas and ways to do things, but by doing so, you can also "make her wrong". Nobody likes this. Sometimes they are wrong, but that is better heard from a T, a coach, a teacher, not a spouse.

If you had a coach, the coach might say- give the team mate the ball. This team mate doesn't feel like he/she is an equal player. With practice, he will, but he needs to have the ball to have a chance. It would be best to give him the ball for the sake of team spirit.

Also, consider what is at stake here. This isn't a world series football game, or a military battle where lives are hanging on the decision. If it's a neighborhood game, it is likely the coach cares less about how precise the game is than the team spirit.

[formflier]

Why are you so caught up in HOW she says things?

Because it matters to me.  I can't force her to say things differently... .but I also don't have to participate in an unhealthy (IMO) conversation style.  

It almost comes across that you are more concerned about how she is saying things rather than hearing what you are saying. Is giving you a list of stuff to do really that dictatorial? I don't fully understand how that is dictatorial.

"Honey, can you take out the trash"  Request

"Take out the trash"  :)ictatorial.  Especially when you bring all the other elements into it.  "I told you to do this and you didn't... .you love your mother more... .etc etc" The more "other" stuff that goes along with it... .can either lead to it being more dictatorial... .or less.

So... .walk in room and say take out trash... .but stay in room.  Seems to me like she may be inviting a response.  Walk in room... .turn nose in air... .sniff... .turn... .as walking out of the room "take out trash... ."... .and don't look back... .more dictatorial.

I'm not interested in feeding the cycle of her thinking that this is the way to get me to do things.  I also don't want to purposely not do something... .just because she didn't ask right... .(I still don't get PA... .but I think that is a bit PA)

(question)  If I was planning to mop the floor... .and she dictated to me that I mop it... .so... .I decided to go work on a truck to "show her"... .I think this is PA behavior.  Am I correct.

If I have my day thought out... .a general plan... .and she dictates that I do something... .and I go on about my day and do some things on her dictate plan because I had already thought about them... .I'm not seeing that as PA.

But... .I'm open to comments on the PA thing.

At any point, have you made an attempt to do 100% of the things that are on her list?

Many... .many... .MANY... .did I say... .many times.  BPD trait behavior is in full swing in our house since 2009 (natural disaster).  I fed the cycle... .badly... .for years.  I would "prove" to her that I completed the list (or task)... .and expect gratitude... .or something like that.  I'm an acts of service guy... .bigtime.

Lately... .when she asks nicely... .I do make extra effort to get stuff done... .to try and reinforce good behavior.

I know that you are resistant to doing the things on the list.

they are good and wonderful things to get done... .but there are other things to get done as well... .and then once the day starts... .life happens.  

So... .not resistant to list... .but resistant to wife setting my priorities without my input. (there... .that might express it better)

I am hearing that you are resistant for the following reasons:

1. She didn't ask properly.

2. It doesn't matter if you do everything on the list, she is still going to complain.

3. Doing everything on the list will be giving her too much power and will validate her power over you, which is something that you are trying to combat.

Am I close on any of these? Did I miss anything?

That's pretty close... .

Which of these things involve boundaries? Which of these things involve values/gender roles/power plays? Which of these things involve pure stubbornness?

I think most of my issue is the values thing.  In MC we talked about what traits we each valued... .values.  Her big one was loyalty (no screwing around with other women)... .mine was kindness... .compassion was number 2.

So this was a list of what we would like to see in other partner... .and that we would show as well.

I'm thinking about 123.  Ok good... .I'm looking at abc... .  Great... .I'm onboard with that list.  Is 1 your top priority?  OK... .great... .  Love you... .I'll do the best I can. 

2 minutes... .in and out... .tops... .probably less.

Wife will know what I agree to because say "I agree to that... ."... .or I'm onboard with that list... .or some other acknowledgement that we are looking at something the same way.

This scenario assumes that the two of you will agree. It is quite obvious that the two of you do not agree on what the priorities are. How does she know that you do NOT agree?

I say... .I don't agree to that... .or I'm not ok with that compromise... .let's keep working it.  Rarity... .to almost never... .that I say "there will be no compromise".

I may have missed something in what I have read so far. I have not seen you clearly state, "I am NOT going to do those things."

Correct... .I was never asked if I agreed to do them or not.  In the past... .(not this time)... .she has tried to claim that because she told me... .I agreed.  Or that my response to an email or something was an agreement.  That us "talking about" something means I agree with it.  That if I don't say "I don't agree to this... ." then I agree.  

This is one of many reasons why I think language matters... .communications style matters.  

I have seen  you mention deflecting. I have seen you mention that you didn't agree to it. If she sends you a to do list, is it possible to respond and say, "I will try to do x, y, and z on the list. I will not be doing a, b, c." I realize that I don't have all of the details and am basing this on what you have said. It seems like there are times when you pretty much leave her hanging. That has to be frustrating.

I imagine it is frustrating... .

I look at it this way... .If she is banging her finger with a hammer... .and then trying to blame me for her finger hurting... .I'm not going to accuse her back of anything... .but I'm not going to pick up blame for finger hurt.  I can try to express compassion for her and her hurt... .rather than blame.  But I'm also not going to try and alter my behavior... .in hopes that she stops banging her finger with a hammer.

I may have just gone to lalala land with that example... .but hitting finger with hammer... .and "dictating" what your hubby does and thinking it is a request... .and getting frustrated because you have created an unrealistic expectation... .are supposed to be similar... .

Maybe... .one alibi here... .is that I'm a communications major... .and have spent most of my professional life studying... .making sure that 10s of thousands of people are communicating "properly"... .or "effectively".   Basically... .that what the admiral says... .gets to the front line sailors... .

What does your education tell you to do when two people are vying for the position of admiral?

Nothing... .I would only comment on whether or not their communication process is effective... .or not.  Are they getting messages back and forth... .is the "hearer" hearing what the sender is trying to say.

Studying how to make sure that 10s of thousands of people are communicating properly is not how to deal with your wife. She is not 10s of thousands of people. You married her and have 8 kids with her. If you approach communication with her like you would approach communicating with 10s of thousands of people, no wonder she is so frustrated. Neither of you are front line sailors. Neither of you are admirals. How does your communication degree tell you to handle dealing with two admirals that can't seem to agree on who is the boss?

Again... .it doesn't.  I focus on the process... .and effectiveness.  

So... .I notice things... .such as a claim that a request was made... .when it was a directive... .and vice versa.  Language matters... .to me anyway.

Think about the difference between these two statements:

Take out the trash.

Will you please take out the trash.

I agree with you that language is important. I have gone round and round with my husband about choosing his words more carefully. His default is critical. His default seems to be a bit bossy. At some point, I had to put that aside. I was so busy worrying about word choice and language that I was missing a whole lot of other stuff. Think about whether or not you want to draw the line in the sand over whether or not she makes a directive or a request. It might be worth it to think about why that is so important to you.

Like... .what were you missing... .that is intriguing.

Yes... .it's worth it to draw a line in the sand... .(if it came to that) ... .or die on that hill.  But... .for me... .that means I'm not going to acknowledge or participate in making a directive a request... .or vice versa.  I control me... .

If she goes along... .great... .I think we'll communicate better in those times (and history says we do)... .and get more done.

If she chooses to do otherwise... .I'll make the best of it that I can... .what that looks like... .well... .that might end up looking different on different days... .could be so much nuance to it.

Good discussion and questions... .

FF  

[formflier]

  It would be best to give him the ball for the sake of team spirit.

Many times this would be true.

If it was reciprocated... .all great... .there is a team.  Depending on how much reciprocation there is... .probably decides how strong the team is.

Also depends if the team mate acknowledges the spirit.  After giving the ball a few times... .then getting told "you never give the ball"... .or things like that... .

FF

[Notwendy]

We can't decide what they are going to think, or reciprocate. They may say "you never give me the ball" but we can't do anything about that. All we can do is decide if we let it get to us and how to respond.

Back to the pink elephant idea. My H can say anything he wants to me. I have to decide if I buy into it or not. He could call me a pink elephant. I can't change what he thinks. Maybe he really believes I am a pink elephant, but I know for certain that I am not. I don't defend it, in fact, defending it accepts that there is some truth to it.

Only we can decide our own feelings and actions. You mentioned the Golden Rule. If that is your code of ethics, then not adhering to that breaks your code. Others do what they want to do. I am pretty sure that this rule was not written with the intent of not defending yourself, or being co-dependent, or being a doormat. However, sometimes we have to pick our battles, what is worth focusing on, what is not, what we can change, and what we can't.  Your wife is not acting according to how you want her too, but I don't know if anything you do or don't do will change that.

[Fian]

My wife demanding that I do various tasks would also be a big issue for me too.  I would also have an issue if she tells me that her tasks must be completed before my tasks.

We each have our own issues that are important to us.  For some, people think "While I don't like it, it isn't worth fighting over."  For others, this is a boundary item.  Only FF can decide which category this falls into.

FF, I think you are correct that your wife should ask, not demand that you perform certain tasks.  Only you can decide if pushing back on this is the best course of action.

[waverider]

This has been an interesting discussion. However, it will now be locked as it has reached it's posting limit.

Please feel free to open a new topic about any related issues

Thanks for you participation

Waverider