Realistic cause for hope?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Hi folks

I've been posting on the Leaving board for about a month since she painted me black and I couldnt stand it any more, and was determined, and in fact have had some moments where I've been genuinely glad that it was over and I could move on. Fleeting moments only, and mainly just confused and miserable, but moments nonetheless.

And I've been reading loads, and learning about BPD, caretaking and codependency, and been thinking a lot about me, and my issues, as opposed to just her and her issues, all really good steps in the right direction actually, even though it mostly wasn't what I wanted - I love this woman more than anyone in my life ever - and I'm nearly 50 so that's hard to give up!

Anyway, she's contacted me a few times and although I haven't blanked her, I have rejected any real communication. But then a couple of days ago she said something nice that sounded genuine, and as a result, I ended up accepting a call from her and we chatted, nothing much, just pleasant, for about half an hour, until she accused me of nonsense and I said, I'm not listening to this, and put the phone down (one of our main issues has been that she accuses me of infidelity with just about everyone I come into contact with - and believes it- even strangers in the street and shop assistants and I gradually Had Enough)

What followed was the usual - she'd wanted to make it all right but once again I wasn't accepting responsiblity ( for something I hadn't done) and never showed any self reflection. (Since she started therapy a year ago with a T who doesn't believe she has BPD-HOW?) she considers herself the Queen of Self Reflection and reasonableness.

Of course, I couldn't just let it go and so the next day I sent her a long email saying how while she thought I was out ... .ing everyone in sight, I was actually learning a lot... .about myself... .and the main gist of it was that I regretted allowing myself to behave in ways I didn't feel were right because I wanted to hold on to her, the reasons I'd  stayed in a relationship that didn't meet my needs (fear of being lonely, lack of self care, wanting to fix her) but that Id now only ever be with someone who liked me for me, was glad I was thinking of me first, would never again put up with her nonsense or put her needs in front of mine, had realised I didn't need her or anyone, that kind of thing. I said I'd like to see myself as someone who could detach from what she says as part of her illness, but staying attached to her, but in reality I can't, it hurts me too much.

Expected ST or a barrage of abuse, shes never been able to accept me saying anything against her, but

Got the longest, kindest, most sincere sounding email ever back - thanking me for my honesty, this was what she'd needed to hear all along, didnt ever believe I'd look after myself enough to look after our relationship too, and this is why she'd always been on high alert to threats, but I was showing I was strong, this was what she'd been waiting for me to say for a year, felt something had shifted in her - I could go on- suffice it so say that I said that I felt validated for the first time in two years  and that she'd finally understood some of Me. Because I did. It was a wonderful, if surprising feeling!

Since then, for the first time in months, all our texts, even a couple that I know in the past would have been incendiary, have been kind, she's respected my boundaries and need for quiet, and generally just behaved in a way that I'd wish, but which I haven't seen in nearly a year. We met earlier and it was lovely and I left after a short time because I was finding it hard  - she didnt push me for Talks, and so far hasn't barraged me... .

But I'm damaged, and I'm scared. She's hurt me so much and so often .And I don't know what to do, or what i want to do.

The hugest part of me wants to believe and trust that something has indeed shifted, as she says, but... .I've beleived and trusted time and again before.

HAve any of you had a similar experience? Do you think there is hope of difference or do you think that this is just manipulation for a recycle?

I'd really appreciate some genuine felt advice from you people who know,  I am back to my usual tight knotted stomach... .

Thank you

Mel

[Mel1968]

Hi folks

I've been posting on the Leaving board for about a month since she painted me black and I couldnt stand it any more, and was determined, and in fact have had some moments where I've been genuinely glad that it was over and I could move on. Fleeting moments only, and mainly just confused and miserable, but moments nonetheless.

And I've been reading loads, and learning about BPD, caretaking and codependency, and been thinking a lot about me, and my issues, as opposed to just her and her issues, all really good steps in the right direction actually, even though it mostly wasn't what I wanted - I love this woman more than anyone in my life ever - and I'm nearly 50 so that's hard to give up!

Anyway, she's contacted me a few times and although I haven't blanked her, I have rejected any real communication. But then a couple of days ago she said something nice that sounded genuine, and as a result, I ended up accepting a call from her and we chatted, nothing much, just pleasant, for about half an hour, until she accused me of nonsense and I said, I'm not listening to this, and put the phone down (one of our main issues has been that she accuses me of infidelity with just about everyone I come into contact with - and believes it- even strangers in the street and shop assistants and I gradually Had Enough)

What followed was the usual - she'd wanted to make it all right but once again I wasn't accepting responsiblity ( for something I hadn't done) and never showed any self reflection. (Since she started therapy a year ago with a T who doesn't believe she has BPD-HOW?) she considers herself the Queen of Self Reflection and reasonableness.

Of course, I couldn't just let it go and so the next day I sent her a long email saying how while she thought I was out ... .ing everyone in sight, I was actually learning a lot... .about myself... .and the main gist of it was that I regretted allowing myself to behave in ways I didn't feel were right because I wanted to hold on to her, the reasons I'd  stayed in a relationship that didn't meet my needs (fear of being lonely, lack of self care, wanting to fix her) but that Id now only ever be with someone who liked me for me, was glad I was thinking of me first, would never again put up with her nonsense or put her needs in front of mine, had realised I didn't need her or anyone, that kind of thing. I said I'd like to see myself as someone who could detach from what she says as part of her illness, but staying attached to her, but in reality I can't, it hurts me too much.

Expected ST or a barrage of abuse, shes never been able to accept me saying anything against her, but

Got the longest, kindest, most sincere sounding email ever back - thanking me for my honesty, this was what she'd needed to hear all along, didnt ever believe I'd look after myself enough to look after our relationship too, and this is why she'd always been on high alert to threats, but I was showing I was strong, this was what she'd been waiting for me to say for a year, felt something had shifted in her - I could go on- suffice it so say that I said that I felt validated for the first time in two years  and that she'd finally understood some of Me. Because I did. It was a wonderful, if surprising feeling!

Since then, for the first time in months, all our texts, even a couple that I know in the past would have been incendiary, have been kind, she's respected my boundaries and need for quiet, and generally just behaved in a way that I'd wish, but which I haven't seen in nearly a year. We met earlier and it was lovely and I left after a short time because I was finding it hard  - she didnt push me for Talks, and so far hasn't barraged me... .

But I'm damaged, and I'm scared. She's hurt me so much and so often .And I don't know what to do, or what i want to do.

The hugest part of me wants to believe and trust that something has indeed shifted, as she says, but... .I've beleived and trusted time and again before.

HAve any of you had a similar experience? Do you think there is hope of difference or do you think that this is just manipulation for a recycle?

I'd really appreciate some genuine felt advice from you people who know,  I am back to my usual tight knotted stomach... .

Thank you

Mel

[range4days]

Hi,

I understand what you are going through. My ex was all up and down with me and always accused me of cheating (something I would never do and something HE did) and thought I liked everyone when I really only had eyes and love for him.

I am going with No Contact now. I do it for a few days then he will call me out of the blue for random things and I know he is just calling to make sure I am still there or whatever.

About 2 weeks ago (a week after our breakup) I saw him and he complimented me. This immediately got me wanting him worse than ever and I almost did but it didnt happen.

Sorry to hear about it. I think they come and go and as much as we love them and want them, is it worth it? I ask myself every day... .

[an0ught]

Hi Mel,

what you did was truly validate her experience with you. There was huge pain and mistakes as in any break-up and you spelled it out. We often shy away from in a distressed relationship is spelling out what all is bad. We want it good. We want the other person to be happy and behave nice. We walk on eggshells. And we invalidate, invalidate and invalidate.

Validation connects in a healthy manner. PwBPD crave validation but their condition often injects quite an amount of invalidation in a relationship. When unchecked invalidation breeds invalidating responses and the relationship spirals down.

While you are now having validating exchanges with her you have to keep in mind that the seeds for conflicts exist and if you would continue the relationship will spawn. With boundaries, validation and peer support (see Staying Board) you may be able to manage or you may be not. The question before you is whether you want to pursue such a course... .

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Mel, Maybe it would be worthwhile take a minute to consider what some of the red flags are for you in terms of your r/s.  So, what are the red flags?  Most of us Nons are pretty good at ignoring/disregarding them.  I sure did.  Yet you are in a different situation.  What are your gut feelings?  It might be worth exploring them at this juncture.  LuckyJim

[Loosestrife]

Lucky Jim gives some good advice. If you stay it's a very long journey and a lot of hard work.

[Mel1968]

Hi all, thanks for your replies.

I think the common theme is - do I want this or not? I just don't know! The mad thing that I've realised is that when things are going well and she's responding how I would hope a partner would respond, I question whether I want this, feel anxious about the rs and our interactions etc, and then as soon as it goes haywire again and I'm dumped, of course I want it. I'm not quite sure what this says about me.

an0ught, I don't entirely understand all you say about validation. I need to read more about it. I'm not sure how my telling her about me and my self reflection on my experience of the relationship was validating for her.

Lucky Jim, by red flags, do you mean thing I cannot ignore? Our relationship has been so dysfunctional for so long that  there are red flags all over the place. In all honesty, my gut feeling is telling me to run for the hills and never look back. But then she's lovely, says something that gives me hope that she'd understood what's happening, and I slow down.

I think I need to keep on reading, keep on trying to think about me, as well as her/us, and trust that at some point it'll be clear to me what I want, and in the meantime, accept that it is as it is. Easier said than done though eh?

[patientandclear]

My ex told me a few months back that something shifted for him, too, when he realized I wasn't trying to take a piece of him (not his words but similar to what your ex said about what bothered her in the r/ship with you ... .Feeling you needed her too much). He said he could be open to being with me after realizing I didn't NEED him. It makes sense, I get it. To be needed too much is smothering and scary for any number of reasons.

But.

The minute I actually communicated ANY dissatisfaction with what he WAS willing to do in our tentative new arrangement, he instantly backed away again, in ways that, without getting into the weeds, violated my real boundaries. So we ran into a wall anyway, despite his shift. The shift seemed to depend on my needing NOTHING from him. He interpreted any feelings I had other than warm indifference as a threat.

So while he experienced a shift, it was not a shift that permitted me to have needs hoes and desires in the r/ship, if that makes sense.

I think you have heard very valuable input, that being strong and defending your boundaries is reassuring to her. But whether she has the ability (esp without getting appropriate support from her T) to process you ever having any need for her ... .That's the hard part.

[Mel1968]

Hi patientandclear

I think you are entirely right. Last night I asked a direct question about something that was bothering me, made sure I was very polite, said why I was asking (to do with me, not her) and said I appreciated it when she replied and answered  - all fine, I thought, how very normal, and then... .almost immediately a barrage of abuse about how she doesn't deserve such s... .t, I am this and that, I am making her ill, I don't care about her, stay away from me, don't contact me again blah blah. She has a chronic condition and stress makes it worse, so i listened to what she said and didn't contact her again... .three hours later, another barrage about how I didn't care for her, she couldn't rely on my support, I only got in touch if I was bored, shes tried to make this work but I don't care... .and nothing since.

Last night I warned her and then blocked her, as I always do if we start down this road, and then this morning I've sent emails saying I'd really hoped we'd been making progress and could we meet to talk about what had happened from both our points of view and what we could have maybe done differently to learn from this and move forward together.ST. That drives me mad, it is so rude and controlling!

So, here I am again, another weekend's plans out the window, another Saturday not sure if I'm coming or going... .

Sigh.

ps the blocking the phone thing - do others do this? Or have a better strategy? If I don't the conversation escalates and either I end up being just as foul, or I ignore it but have to read a dozen texts of nonsense, so I warn her that I'm blocking her til the morning and then do, just so I can get some peace. But I am very aware of how horrid it is to be blocked.

[an0ught]

Hi Mel,

the blocking phone for some time would fall under boundary/time-out and is one of the few meaningful and healty options available to you when she explodes. You know it is effective, keep going 

[Mel1968]

Thank you, an0ught - that's reassuring... .was worried that I was inadvertently doing something that was making things worse... .

[Loosestrife]

Hi all, thanks for your replies.

I think the common theme is - do I want this or not? I just don't know! The mad thing that I've realised is that when things are going well and she's responding how I would hope a partner would respond, I question whether I want this, feel anxious about the rs and our interactions etc, and then as soon as it goes haywire again and I'm dumped, of course I want it. I'm not quite sure what this says about me.

Lucky Jim, by red flags, do you mean thing I cannot ignore? Our relationship has been so dysfunctional for so long that  there are red flags all over the place. In all honesty, my gut feeling is telling me to run for the hills and never look back. But then she's lovely, says something that gives me hope that she'd understood what's happening, and I slow down.

I think I need to keep on reading, keep on trying to think about me, as well as her/us, and trust that at some point it'll be clear to me what I want, and in the meantime, accept that it is as it is. Easier said than done though eh?

I can relate to what you have written. I have moments where I think my pwBPD and I are o the same page in once conversation, only to be told on another day that my expectations are unrealistic. I have read everything under the sun. I'm starting to learn to trust my gut more and just be myself.

[Svarl1]

Hi Mel

In my experience strong boundaries are absolutely essential.

My relationship only became bearable when I made it clear there were some things I would not tolerate.  And I had to show this with my feet, not simply tell it with my mouth.

After we got back in contact the first thing she told me was 'how brave' I was to get out! This after months and years of me not being worthy of a life, an opinion or any self respect whatsoever.

I ended up going back (it's amazing how quickly ones defences can fade if you were brought up with basic trust in human nature). Things have been increasingly less fraught since then, but i think we are both lonely in the relationship. I haven't really opened up to her: I think if I did it would become obvious that I'd rather be somewhere else, then she would be devastated and/or become more needy and controlling again.

On her side she doesn't seem to trust me to have a life outside the relationship - as with your partner she fears I'd cheat. I would not, but I reckon I would probably meet people that I would prefer to spend my time with. Just being honest!

In short, it's possible to have a relationship with a needy and/or controlling person.  But even if it improves somewhat, will it ever  be truly satisfying for either of you?

Really it should be satisfying for BOTH of you.

Why should ANYONE have to spend time with someone when they feel dread in their stomach?  Who wrote that law?

[Mel1968]

Svarl1

I'm sorry to hear the way you feel the way you do about your relationship. Can I ask why you stay?

After we got back in contact the first thing she told me was 'how brave' I was to get out! This after months and years of me not being worthy of a life, an opinion or any self respect whatsoever.

I've heard similar things - it's things like that which give me (?false) hope that she has understanding of her behaviour... .and of course if you have understanding that you behave so badly, surely as a grown woman you'd want to do something about it? But that's because I forget that she isn't just a grown woman, but a damaged child too. And then that breaks my heart all over again.

[Lucky Jim]

all fine, I thought, how very normal, and then... .almost immediately a barrage of abuse about how she doesn't deserve such s... .t, I am this and that, I am making her ill, I don't care about her, stay away from me, don't contact me again blah blah.

Hey Mel, The behavior you describe (above) is pretty typical and to be expected in a BPD r/s.  A storm can arise out of a clear blue sky.  If you think you are going to reach some plateau when thing are calm and normal, you are kidding yourself.  You are in for a rough ride, my friend.  Only you know when it's time to get off the roller coaster.  Try to listen to what your gut is telling you.

LuckyJim

[mitatsu]

all fine, I thought, how very normal, and then... .almost immediately a barrage of abuse about how she doesn't deserve such s... .t, I am this and that, I am making her ill, I don't care about her, stay away from me, don't contact me again blah blah.

Hey Mel, The behavior you describe (above) is pretty typical and to be expected in a BPD r/s.  A storm can arise out of a clear blue sky.  If you think you are going to reach some plateau when thing are calm and normal, you are kidding yourself.  You are in for a rough ride, my friend.  Only you know when it's time to get off the roller coaster.  Try to listen to what your gut is telling you.

LuckyJim

14 recycles in 4yrs and a 6 month failed marriage confirm this

i thought i could give her stability... .instead she gave me hell... .its a illness that knows no boundries respects no one and cripples all who play the game