Wondering how hard to push. . .

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

I want to push for better communication. The goal is to get some kind of resolution. It may be that I just need to feel heard.

OK, putting on my 'guy' hat here... .please help me understand how you would get some kind of resolution... .

My wife will bring up subjects, 10+ times a month, dragging out any and all old grievances... .when i can pin her down for an answer she says the topic isn't resolved.

I've heard her, understand her feelings, validated & repeated back her feelings... .somehow it's not "resolved".

The only thing I can think of is resolved = agreeing with her... .but she insists that's not it... .

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[vortex of confusion]

OK, putting on my 'guy' hat here... .please help me understand how you would get some kind of resolution... .

My wife will bring up subjects, 10+ times a month, dragging out any and all old grievances... .when i can pin her down for an answer she says the topic isn't resolved.

I've heard her, understand her feelings, validated & repeated back her feelings... .somehow it's not "resolved".

The only thing I can think of is resolved = agreeing with her... .but she insists that's not it... .

I've got guys coming out of the wood work here. 

In all honesty, I am not sure what a resolution would look like. For me, a resolution would be my husband following through with what he says he is going to do.

If he says that he is going to do the laundry, then I want him to actually do the laundry.

Yes, I do bring up a lot of old hurts. The hurts that I bring up are not little things like he forgot to take out the trash. The hurts that I am struggling with are a direct result of his sex addiction. Yes, I do bring them up. I can't let him sweep it under the rug and forget that he has done those things to me. In the past, I have allowed things to be swept under the rug and ignored and that doesn't work for me. In the past, I allowed him to pretty much turn me into his therapist where I listened to him talk about his struggles to not act out. For years, I put my feelings aside to help him and support him. I am done with that. As a result, I have a lot of residual anger and pent up emotions that I am trying to deal with in a more healthy manner. I am still not sure what that entails. It is a work in progress.

For me, I don't care if he agrees with me. This isn't something that he can really agree with because it is about ME. For years, I have tried to tell him how much his behavior has hurt me. For years, when I have tried to bring up how his behaviors have impacted me, he has turned it around and made it about him. If I tell him that I am struggling with all of this, he will go off and talk about his addiction like somehow him having an addiction is supposed to make it hurt me less. I feel like he uses his addiction as an excuse for any and all bad behavior. I am supposed to be okay with the video games because at least he isn't acting out sexually. I am supposed to be okay with this or that or the other because at least he isn't doing this other stuff that isn't worse. I am supposed to be compassionate towards him and his struggles yet my struggles are pushed to the side. I don't expect him to understand me. I don't expect him to have compassion for me.

The more I think about it, the more I want the space to feel my feelings and deal with things without him getting up in my area. If I laugh at something on the Internet, he wants to know what it is. If I am angry, the first thing he wants to know is what he did wrong. I am working on letting myself feel my crap and own it.

[Joel2:25]

Wow Vortex of Confusion-

Reading your posts is like reading my own life/marriage. I'm new here and still learning the gist of these boards and such, but got to say... .you are heard. There are others in the same turmoil. I can't wait to have time to read through the rest of these. My BPD husband's trigger is my sharing my feelings (as MC suggested).  My life has already calmed now that you kind folks have helped me understand this is a big no-no. Will need to learn MAJOR readjustment here.

Also, used SET response last night when he was venting about his job and then again throughout the night and PREVENTED a major event with the three day cycle of ignoring me. He was spoiling for a fight-to deal with his emotions from work event-and I didn't defend myself (like I usually do). I didn't engage thanks to that 3 min clip. Y'all giving a girl hope! Thanks

[Cat Familiar]

Yes, I do bring up a lot of old hurts. The hurts that I bring up are not little things like he forgot to take out the trash. The hurts that I am struggling with are a direct result of his sex addiction. Yes, I do bring them up. I can't let him sweep it under the rug and forget that he has done those things to me. In the past, I have allowed things to be swept under the rug and ignored and that doesn't work for me. In the past, I allowed him to pretty much turn me into his therapist where I listened to him talk about his struggles to not act out. For years, I put my feelings aside to help him and support him. I am done with that. As a result, I have a lot of residual anger and pent up emotions that I am trying to deal with in a more healthy manner. I am still not sure what that entails. It is a work in progress.

Vortex, I totally understand you regarding how hurtful the sex addiction issue is.    I dealt with that issue with my first husband and it was devastating. Really, I think it wrecked my sex life to some degree since I can never fully trust another human being after what I realize people are capable of.

Hearing your story, it would take a far more forgiving and compassionate person than I to forgive and forget (or at least put the memory on the back burner.) Really, I see the best option for you is to do therapy and even then, it's hard to forgive when one is put in such an untenable situation.

The other part of your communication that I can relate to is the "teenage boy for a husband." It's so frustrating to have to play the role of adult when your spouse is happily ignorant and oblivious to the daily responsibilities of being a householder and parent. I feel for you--it's a double whammy!   

[vortex of confusion]

Hearing your story, it would take a far more forgiving and compassionate person than I to forgive and forget (or at least put the memory on the back burner.) Really, I see the best option for you is to do therapy and even then, it's hard to forgive when one is put in such an untenable situation.

I am working with a trauma coach that specializes in dealing with spouses of sex addicts. It has been very validating to work with her. I tried the 12 step program for wives of sex addicts and I found it to be very difficult to deal with because of the fact that it felt like I was supposed to somehow take responsibility for the fact that my husband is a sex addict and that I somehow did something to contribute to it. That isn't what is said directly but that is exactly how I felt. The underlying notion was that I would have to do the 12 step forever. I have no intentions of being in therapy or a 12 step program forever. I want to get the tools that I need and move forward.

The other part of your communication that I can relate to is the "teenage boy for a husband." It's so frustrating to have to play the role of adult when your spouse is happily ignorant and oblivious to the daily responsibilities of being a householder and parent. I feel for you--it's a double whammy!   

Thanks for the hugs! I would say that most of the time, I am okay with things. Every now and then, like now, I decide to push things a bit and see if I can make more progress. I haven't said anything to him at all since yesterday. I don't want to approach him about some of this stuff again until I can get a better grasp of what it is that I am wanting to accomplish. And, I can tell that I am agitated and frustrated and I know that I can't approach him when I am in that mind set.

[Notwendy]

Vortex,

I dealt with different things, but there was a time where my H painted me black and was horrible- really. I hung in there for the kids, and at the time, that was really the only reason. Eventually I got depressed, and just checked out of the marriage emotionally. I didn't care at that point what he did.  The kids needed me and that was it.

Then he made a sudden turn around and decided he wanted the marriage to work, but his first attempt was like a magic wand. OK I'm good now. Let's start over and decided we should go on as if those years never happened. If I brought them up he would say " look aren't we doing better? It isn't that bad is it?"

However, eventually he agreed to MC and we made some progress.

Like you, I was boiling mad. It happened and it was BAD, so BAD that I didn't even want to be around him and now he wants me?

I can recall countless circular conversations like yours. I wanted resolution, an apology,not a magical erasure. However, I don't recall when any of them did not trigger him. In retrospect, I think they were so triggering and shaming that they shut him down. He has eventually apologized in small increments but an apology is very hard for pwBPD to do.

I have the more severe example in my mom. If I ever mentioned the things she did when I was a kid, she would dissociate into some crazy rage. Once in a blue moon she has said that she regrets some things she did, but she can not mention them. I think also it would be a terrible thing for her to face them.

Although you think that backing off is giving them a pass, so is pushing it to the point that they disregulate and give themselves a pass. Although you are justified in being a victim- pushing them to this point makes them take on the victim role. Once they believe you are attacking them it is all over. You are the persecutor and they rescue themselves by getting angry at you.

Our MC will stop me if I bring up the past as it shuts him down. However, sometimes we don't get resolution. I came to the point where I realized that resentment wasn't helping me. I have not forgotten. Sometimes it still comes up in MC, however, this is not something we can discuss outside of MC. It just breaks down.

I think it is great that you are working with a trauma coach. You deserve support.  

[vortex of confusion]

Although you think that backing off is giving them a pass, so is pushing it to the point that they disregulate and give themselves a pass. Although you are justified in being a victim- pushing them to this point makes them take on the victim role. Once they believe you are attacking them it is all over. You are the persecutor and they rescue themselves by getting angry at you.

Hmmm. . .I don't feel like I am the victim here. And I don't want to make him feel like a victim either. I don't want to push it to the point of dysregulation. I want to push things so that they improve. Things aren't going to improve if I put my thumb up my butt and refuse to try to communicate with him out of fear of him dysregulating. That is why I started this thread. I am trying to figure out how to find that middle ground.

Our MC will stop me if I bring up the past as it shuts him down. However, sometimes we don't get resolution. I came to the point where I realized that resentment wasn't helping me. I have not forgotten. Sometimes it still comes up in MC, however, this is not something we can discuss outside of MC. It just breaks down.

For me, I need to know that he is actively working on his stuff. I don't need to know specifics but I do need to know that he is taking positive steps, even if they are small ones. If he was refusing to talk to his sponsor and was refusing to do anything at all with regards to his sexual addiction, then I would take a totally different approach in order to protect myself. I cannot handle dealing with stuff related to his sexual addiction. I want reassurance that he is making positive changes and the only way to get that is to bring up the past. I don't feel like the stuff that I am bringing up is about resentment. I feel like the stuff that I am bringing up is stuff that has to do with whether or not he is actively in recovery for his sex addiction.

[formflier]

Around the time the menses start (just before and just after)!

Interesting... .I've had one daughter go through that... .I never saw that.

My next daughter is a drama queen... .big talker... .she has presence... .that could be different story in couple years... .

FF

[formflier]

If he says that he is going to do the laundry, then I want him to actually do the laundry.

This should be fairly simple to solve... .IF... .someone other than you is the accountability partner.

I'm most likely naive... .or don't get something... .

But... .most men do understand carrot and stick.  Again... .the wife shouldn't be the one with the stick... .

So... .he has a sponsor... .someone with ability to control access to his games or whatever is precious to him... .and do xyz first... .then you get abc.

There needs to be someone that can say... .quit whining... .man up and do something... .the box of tissues is over there if you need them.

Here is the thing with guys (oh no... .here come another FF speech... .)

Guys are usually simple creatures.  It is a rare guy (read teenage boy)that will go over and above what is required... .to get what he wants.

So... .mow the lawn twice and you get your video game.  It'a rare guy that will do it three or four times... .before asking for the game. 

So... .when I think of VOC's hubby... .at some point in his life... .when he should have learned basic responsibility and follow through... .it didn't happen... .toss some sex addiction and BPD in... .and... .whoa... .

Sigh... .so... .somebody has to raise the bar for him... .he will eventually jump over it... .to get something he wants... .

Again... .probably simplistic of me... .

FF

[Grey Kitty]

Wow, this topic is active! I've got a couple thoughts.

VoC, you acknowledged that "what were you thinking" wasn't helpful... .and did say "Aren't I allowed to screw up now and again?"

Yes, you ARE allowed to screw up. We all are. And slipping like this isn't a big deal--he isn't going to completely fall apart because of it... .heck, even if he full-on dysregulates, it still was him, not you. The snarky kind of answer you usually give is the kind which reminds a person who said that that they could choose their words differently next time.   That he handles it so badly is on him.

And no, you shouldn't feel grateful that he doesn't beat you/isn't sexting with bimbos this week/etc. Your feelings are yours, and you should be able to feel frustrated as hell that he can't clean the house for your anniversary or birthday, etc. Those are your feelings and you are entitled to them if they come up.

That said... .your H's lack of capacity to do stuff, and addiction to computer games... .yep, you have room for some more radical acceptance of that. It is who he is, and what he does. A guy like FF can't even imagine how a man is incapable of such things. Well... .it isn't his job, or yours to imagine HOW that is possible. But he IS that way.

Pretending that he isn't that way, that he can just slap himself on the forehead and say "whups, I had the be-a-loser-husband-and-father switch flipped in my brain, and I'll turn it off now" and then not do any of these things isn't going to work for you... .the more you expect him to do something like that, the more disappointed and upset you are going to be!

But you don't have to like it or be thankful for it!

[formflier]

 

I think there is a middle ground... .where a guy that is saying he wants to "be better" take steps... .and that kind of thing can make changes... .but only with some kind of "accountability partner"

I don't for a minute think it will be easy... .

The only thing I'm sure of is VOC should NOT be the partner. 

Totally different scenario to try and talk a guy into this who isn't even mouthing the words that he wants to be better.

FF

[Grey Kitty]

Radical acceptance is about who he is TODAY, not who he could be tomorrow, or even who he was yesterday.

Yes, he could change. Yes, he could "be better". Yes, he even did make some significant improvements from a while ago.

My point is that seeing him as who he *could* be makes radical acceptance of who he is really difficult.

[vortex of confusion]

Pretending that he isn't that way, that he can just slap himself on the forehead and say "whups, I had the be-a-loser-husband-and-father switch flipped in my brain, and I'll turn it off now" and then not do any of these things isn't going to work for you... .the more you expect him to do something like that, the more disappointed and upset you are going to be!

WOW, this made me laugh and it is so spot on!

I have no delusions about him changing. He has been like this for 17 years. Heck, I have talked to his mom about it and she said that she had the same problems with him when he was a kid. He was lazy. I wish she had told me that all of those years ago.

I am pushing things for ME not him. I am trying to figure out what I can get away with without creating more problems. I am trying to identify the line so I can dance around it without crossing it.

[vortex of confusion]

I think there is a middle ground... .where a guy that is saying he wants to "be better" take steps... .and that kind of thing can make changes... .but only with some kind of "accountability partner"

I don't for a minute think it will be easy... .

The only thing I'm sure of is VOC should NOT be the partner. 

Totally different scenario to try and talk a guy into this who isn't even mouthing the words that he wants to be better.

A couple of things. . .

He wants to be rid of the sex addiction. He has a sponsor for that. His sex addiction is the only thing that he really owns up to and is actively addressing.

He doesn't see his gaming as a problem. I have brought it up in the past. I am not going to bring it up again because he has improved drastically with that. He is a grown man and has every right to do stuff that he enjoys. He has a difficult time moderating himself. He could be doing things that are a heck of a lot worse than playing games. His gaming computer is smack dab in the middle of the kids gaming/computer area.

The housework stuff isn't really anything new. He has gotten a lot better than he used to be.

I feel like there has been a lot of improvement across the board. I want that trend to continue.

[vortex of confusion]

So... .he has a sponsor... .someone with ability to control access to his games or whatever is precious to him... .and do xyz first... .then you get abc.

I am going to pose a question to you FF. How would you feel if your wife tried to do this to you? If she had somebody try to control your access to the things that you loved to do and wouldn't let you do them until you finished your assigned duties, how would you react?

I am not willing to go that route. My wanting certain things done around the house is on ME. Those are things that are important to me. I can't make him have the same priorities that I do even if his priorities are that of a teenage boy. Does it frustrate the heck out of me? Absolutely. Just like you get frustrated with trying to communicate with your wife that your priorities are not the same as hers.

My husband may be an addict and he may have a personality disorder. He is still a human being. I am not going to play the carrot and stick game with him.

Sigh... .so... .somebody has to raise the bar for him... .he will eventually jump over it... .to get something he wants... .

I am trying to raise the bar. I don't want to raise it too fast though. I really don't want him to fall on his face. I want to set him up for success but that is going to require me figuring out how hard to push things.

[formflier]

A couple of things. . .

He wants to be rid of the sex addiction. He has a sponsor for that. His sex addiction is the only thing that he really owns up to and is actively addressing.

He doesn't see his gaming as a problem. I have brought it up in the past. I am not going to bring it up again because he has improved drastically with that. He is a grown man and has every right to do stuff that he enjoys. He has a difficult time moderating himself. He could be doing things that are a heck of a lot worse than playing games. His gaming computer is smack dab in the middle of the kids gaming/computer area.

The housework stuff isn't really anything new. He has gotten a lot better than he used to be.

I feel like there has been a lot of improvement across the board. I want that trend to continue.

Hey... .I'm a bit confused... .I'll go back and reread at some point... .but I thought he was claiming he was doing better... .or wanting to better around the house... .but then claiming he had no idea how to do better... .or some such dynamic as that.


If he actually is doing better at housework and gaming... .and you are happy with the progress... .then erase all my previous comments... .

They were addressed to someone that claims to want to do better... .

FF

[formflier]

I am going to pose a question to you FF. How would you feel if your wife tried to do this to you? If she had somebody try to control your access to the things that you loved to do and wouldn't let you do them until you finished your assigned duties, how would you react?

Presented that way... .I would not be a fan... .

That's not my proposal... .

and is exactly why I was adamant that you should NOT be the accountability partner for this type of thing.

This only works if it is something a person (again... .we are talking about guy here... .no idea if similar way works for women) wants to do better... .but is "confused"... ."needs help"... .etc etc.

I am not going to play the carrot and stick game with him.

Yes... .exactly... .you should not be involved in this process... .other than as a cheerleader and wife... .not accountability partner.

Sigh... .so... .somebody has to raise the bar for him... .he will eventually jump over it... .to get something he wants... .

I am trying to raise the bar. I don't want to raise it too fast though. I really don't want him to fall on his face. I want to set him up for success but that is going to require me figuring out how hard to push things.

Hey... .to be clear... .this is a process that I have regularly gone through in the past.  I'm considering doing this again with another guy in my church now.

So... .while I have never applied this to restricting myself from video games or doing something first... .before video games... . I have done it in past when there were habits that I wanted to change... .or new habits I wanted to include in my life.  Many times those habits or the ideas came from my wife.  

The key is that a person wanting to do this let someone else "into" their life... .doing this shows a desire to change.

Last thought for now: Your comment about what his mom said about him being lazy... .sort of confirmed my guess... .that he was never taught/expected/had bar raised to be productive and contribute... .I see sort of a "let boys be boys attitude" (maybe I'm reading in a bit much)... .and... .that's what you get.  

A person that looks like a grown man... .but acts like a boy.  Then... .toss in PD issues and other stuff... .and you have a recipe that frustrates VOC... .badly.

Anyway... .maybe I misread post and hubby is not saying he is... .or wants to get better around house.

FF

[formflier]

 

Last thought... .

One of the "markers" or things that I would use to measure how much better my wife is getting is her acceptance of accountability from someone... .anyone.

My wife and our r/s is much better than last year... .and years before that... .

But holding herself or allowing anyone else to hold her accountable for what she said... .committed to... .any of that... .is still not on the table. 

Maybe someday... .

FF

[vortex of confusion]

Hey... .I'm a bit confused... .I'll go back and reread at some point... .but I thought he was claiming he was doing better... .or wanting to better around the house... .but then claiming he had no idea how to do better... .or some such dynamic as that.

It is confusing. He does claim that he wants to do better. I think the only reason he claims to want to do better is to appease me. Whether or not he agrees that he needs to do better is up for debate. He wants to do better but doesn't think that he needs help or interference.

Yes, he quite frequently claims that he wants to do better with the kids and house. He quite frequently tells me stuff like, "I don't know how to do it." "I wasn't thinking." or some other reason. I feel like he expresses the desire because that is what he thinks he should do.

If he actually is doing better at housework and gaming... .and you are happy with the progress... .then erase all my previous comments... .

Yes, he is doing better. My happiness levels about his progress vary. Some days, I think he is doing great. Other days, I am agitated and annoyed because it still feels like I am the adult and he is the kid. I know that my feelings about this are flaky so I try not to bring it up with him as long as progress is forward and there is no real backsliding.

[vortex of confusion]

The key is that a person wanting to do this let someone else "into" their life... .doing this shows a desire to change.

My husband doesn't let people into his life. I feel like he pays lip service to wanting to change in other areas. He does just enough to show some improvement but not enough to actually change. There is desire there but it is minimal in my opinion.

Last thought for now: Your comment about what his mom said about him being lazy... .sort of confirmed my guess... .that he was never taught/expected/had bar raised to be productive and contribute... .I see sort of a "let boys be boys attitude" (maybe I'm reading in a bit much)... .and... .that's what you get.  

According to her, she taught him better than that. I do know that he is a momma's boy. His dad was a lump on a log. He worked and was a good provider but he was so unbelievably checked out. Not much different than my husband. So, his mom talked to him all of the time. When reading this site, I found the stuff on emotional incest where a parent will talk to a kid when a spouse isn't available. MIL has done that to hubby for most of his life. I think she has infantalized him so that he would never run too far from her. That is pure speculation on my part though. And the woman is so darn critical it isn't even funny. He got his dream job and when he told her, she said, ":)on't screw it up." He screwed it up. She planted the seed in his head that he was going to screw it up and he did.

I took his mother to task over the way she treated him. She used to badger him about his weight, about whether he went to church, whether he did this or that, and she would badger the heck out of me too. We lived with her for about 4 months. After we moved out, I sent her a scathing e-mail telling her that I thought she was overly critical and abusive and that I was NOT going to tolerate it any more. She backed off and isn't nearly as critical of my husband. Given how his mother is, I totally understand why he is that way. Even the kids have commented, "No wonder dad is messed up. If I had a mom like that, I would be messed up too." 

Anyway... .maybe I misread post and hubby is not saying he is... .or wants to get better around house.

You didn't misread it. He is saying that and he is doing things at his pace. What I would like to see is him do more with counseling. That is the thing that I am going to try to push harder. When we have the money for him to go, there is some kind of an excuse. When he feels like going, he says we don't have the money. I really think him going to counseling is more important than me pushing too hard about the house stuff. Yes, it is frustrating and annoying and there are days when I want to scream. And there may be days when I post so that I can rant and rave about it.

[Cat Familiar]

Having a "teenager masquerading as a husband," I think I'm qualified to add my two cents to the discussion.

Here's how I see it: Formflier, with your military background and tremendous responsibility for a large family, you've learned to happily shoulder responsibilities, undoubtedly at an early age. For you, it's a source of pride and competence to know that you can successfully carry out your duties and you do it willingly and lovingly.

For these "teenage husbands," responsibilities are a big negative. They want to get them out of the way, whether by ignoring them or doing them sloppily, so that someone else will take over. Responsibilities are a pain in the neck and they keep them from doing what they really want to do. Also since they've had a history of incompetence and criticism for how they carry out their duties, responsibilities are a sum-total negative because they remind them how ineffective they are.

That said, often professional competence is in a completely different category than household tasks.

[CastleofGlass]

I've had some mixed emotions reading this post. The way your husband reacted to your statements and questions, the video gaming and checking out, sounded like me. I am not BPD though, my wife is the one who suffers from that. That dialogue even sounded like an excerpt from my life. But, my story is different as to why I 'checked out'. I checked out as a way to not deal with my uBPDw. I was tired of everything I did being wrong. Over the years of going to work everyday and coming home to help do dishes/kids/clean/etc., I was still being verbally attacked for not doing this or that right. I came up in a non supportive family. It bothered me over the years and when my wife would do it, I finally said to myself, "f**k this, f**k you and all of it. I am just going to play video games and enjoy my off time from work. You want to complain, then enjoy more of the workload."

When I was younger, I grew up in an alcoholic/drug using/party environment. My mother bounced from male to male and I witnessed many altercations in my childhood. Video games became my escape. They were like interactive books for me and I have always enjoyed them. I am a bit touchy when some people call playing video games like that "not growing up". Everyone has hobbies. Some party their lives away, some read all the time, some sew. I play video games. Now, on the flip side, I did see the "not growing up" part of it, when I reacted the way I did and threw myself into these games. I didn't help at all with household tasks anymore. That part, being a husband and father was childish of me. But, as I told my wife, it was my escape and basically my way of giving up on reality. I struggled for many years hating society and people. I had nothing but bad luck in dealing with the outside world and when it followed in my marriage with my uBPDw, I just collapsed socially. Things have changed for me. I barely touch video games at all. I immerse myself in helping around the house and with the kids. It's a massive change and I've been doing it for 6 months now. Yesterday, I baked brownies .

I feel pretty good about these changes I've made. I don't suffer from ED, but I do suffer from a huge lack of intimacy in my wife and well... .it's because of all the years of the insults and emotional abuse. I have lost my attraction to her. I'm taking baby steps to rewire my brain. It's many different things for the better of myself and my family. I can't shut down anymore because of my wifes actions or other outside influences.

Sorry that there isn't much here at all contribution wise. For a moment, I honestly felt as if I was reading a post from my wife about me in the beginning. I had to say something.

[formflier]

 

Great post... .keep it rolling.

VOC,

OK... .my comments still stand then.

If... .this becomes an area you want to push in... .then I would limit your suggestions to "if you want to do better around the house... .please bring someone onboard to help you with accountability in this area."

I wouldn't get into the details on what he is doing better... .or not.  Let someone else shoulder that burden.

If he doesn't want to do this... .then... .just let him know you are ready to discuss further when he is ready to improve or change... .something along those lines.

What you want to avoid is telling him he is going better... .when he isn't.  But you also don't want to remind him of his critical mother.

Yeah... .I can see how this happened from the family you described. 

Males can thrive on competition.  He didn't have to jump very far to "beat out" dad. 

My oldest very proud to have outdone me... .already.  His test scores are higher... .and he is (as a sophomore) on an 6 month internship earning $22 an hour... .very likely to cruise out of college with a masters and job with this company... .very close to 6 figures... .out of college.

All I did was land on an aircraft carrier soon out of college... .jeesh... .

FF

[EaglesJuju]

This thread has reached its post limit, and is now closed. This is a worthwhile topic, and you are free to start a new thread to continue the conversation. Thanks for your understanding... .