Therapy post BPD disaster

[still_in_shock]

For those who ended up going through the therapy to heal from the damage of having a BPD partner experience, what were the techniques the therapist used in your sessions? What was an overall approach?

I am seeing one for about 4 months now (started soon after the BU) and, while he had quite good credentials, we do not really do anything except for me ranting all session long and him just listening. And we've done so for about 20 sessions now. I've asked him if we are going to do some practical work, like psychological tools and methods to help me get over the pain, hurt and etc., he said "nope. i wish there was a method to help you heal from the loss, but there isn't. You have to live through all the natural stages of it - depressions, anger and acceptance - to move on with your life". While I love going to see him - someone who just has to listen because it is his job, i am not sure if the therapy is being effective enough. He perceives me as a person who is suffering a loss of a relationship and is having a hard time adjusting to the new life, whereas perceives my ex as someone with power and control issues.

I do not think he understands how messed up my uBPDxh was, including his sadistic inclinations, verbal abuses, sex addictions, binge drinking, etc.

When I've shared with the therapist that the ex would get into a maniac state and get sexually excited whenever I was sad and crying (after seeing docs, hearing their prognosis on my health status, future risks, etc), he'd console me as if I were a little child, then lift me (while I was still choking on my snot sobbing and absolutely not in the mood for anything) and take to the bedroom to take me sexually, he just nodded saying "well, a typical power and control behavior". But when I told it to my sister (medical background) and a good friend about it, they've freaked out exclaiming how could I have lived with the person without a fear for my safety. The medical background sister said it is actually a rapist nature to do that... . All my therapist says about my ex is that he had a "power and control issues" and that he was a big time liar, whereas others who know my story absolutely agree there is quite a lot of abnormality going on.

So pls share how your sessions went

[proust1986]

For those who ended up going through the therapy to heal from the damage of having a BPD partner experience, what were the techniques the therapist used in your sessions? What was an overall approach?

I am seeing one for about 4 months now (started soon after the BU) and, while he had quite good credentials, we do not really do anything except for me ranting all session long and him just listening. And we've done so for about 20 sessions now. I've asked him if we are going to do some practical work, like psychological tools and methods to help me get over the pain, hurt and etc., he said "nope. i wish there was a method to help you heal from the loss, but there isn't. You have to live through all the natural stages of it - depressions, anger and acceptance - to move on with your life". While I love going to see him - someone who just has to listen because it is his job, i am not sure if the therapy is being effective enough. He perceives me as a person who is suffering a loss of a relationship and is having a hard time adjusting to the new life, whereas perceives my ex as someone with power and control issues.

I do not think he understands how messed up my uBPDxh was, including his sadistic inclinations, verbal abuses, sex addictions, binge drinking, etc.

When I've shared with the therapist that the ex would get into a maniac state and get sexually excited whenever I was sad and crying (after seeing docs, hearing their prognosis on my health status, future risks, etc), he'd console me as if I were a little child, then lift me (while I was still choking on my snot sobbing and absolutely not in the mood for anything) and take to the bedroom to take me sexually, he just nodded saying "well, a typical power and control behavior". But when I told it to my sister (medical background) and a good friend about it, they've freaked out exclaiming how could I have lived with the person without a fear for my safety. The medical background sister said it is actually a rapist nature to do that... . All my therapist says about my ex is that he had a "power and control issues" and that he was a big time liar, whereas others who know my story absolutely agree there is quite a lot of abnormality going on.

So pls share how your sessions went

I've been seeing a schema therapist (who deals regularly with BPD patients and their loved ones) weekly since the end of my relationship with dBPDexgf almost eight months ago. My sessions usually go the same way: He asks me how my week has gone and then I tell him. If I haven't already mentioned it, he'll usually ask me how things are going in terms of my feelings about my ex (with whom I'm NC). Most of the time I report how sad and hurt I am about the end of the relationship, etc and we'll talk about the relationship some. He listens and empathizes but also encourages me to see that in various ways she wasn't a good romantic partner for me and helps me to understand why I'm particularly attracted to women like her (this all has to do with "schemas" in schema therapy).

Practical advice he's given me is (1) eliminate all mementos of the relationship. Things I had a hard time getting rid of he let me leave in a drawer in his office (e.g., letters, etc); (2) I've written letters to my ex which I've never sent but instead read out-loud to my therapist during session; (3) some skills training in mindfulness meditation, defusion techniques, etc.; (4) he encouraged me to keep a journal that I occasionally share from during sessions; (5) I'm a Christian so he suggested I write a short prayer for my ex and for myself to say when needed; and (6) he told me from the beginning it would take awhile for the pain to subside, up to a year or longer even, and that's proven to be true. Time does NOT heal all wounds, but time plus taking positive steps forward does (for the most part).

Honestly, a good bit of my therapy time these days is spent talking about other issues in my life. Ultimately, my therapy is about me and not about my ex. There's really nothing I can do about her. I can only take care of myself and my own stuff.

Hope this helps.

[ZeusRLX]

My therapy has been pretty much like the opening thread... .just listening.

I didn't encounter any techniques that made healing faster other than just talking things through.

Also, yes, many therapists have very little experience with personality disorders and so often times stuff I tell them they don't even understand.

I have encountered quite a few "therapists" that don't even know what it really is.

So, yeah, in my first time it took years to get back to 100%. But try to find someone who knows a lot about BPD... .like schema therapy that the poster above me mentioned, that seems to be focused on personality disorders... .that's probably would be much better. Thank you, proust!

I think I will look into this schema therapy myself. Any other tips on personality disorder specific therapy techniques? I'd really love to talk to a therapist that knows a lot about BPD.

[ZeusRLX]

Just googled "borderline personality disorder" and my city's name and found a bunch of people specializing in it.

Might be better to see a BPD specialist than a generic therapist I think. I will try that myself.

[Sunfl0wer]

(Sorry 3 replies since... .but too late to edit)

Hi still-in-shock!

It sounds like you are feeling frustrated and as though your sessions are not as productive or effective.  It also sounds like you did the wise thing by bringing this to the attention of the T to see if the two of you could resolve this.  

I know that I would be uncomfortable to be spending my time and money and also sharing of myself and then feeling as though I am getting very little out of it in terms of professional guidance.

psychological tools and methods to help me get over the pain, hurt and etc., he said "nope. i wish there was a method to help you heal from the loss, but there isn't. You have to live through all the natural stages of it - depressions, anger and acceptance - to move on with your life"

This statement of his is true.  Healing is about experiencing the pain. You may try instead to ask for suggestions on coping with the pain.  What do you currently do when you feel pained?  Is it interfering with your life?  Can you discuss in what ways? (Either here and/or with T?)

While I love going to see him - someone who just has to listen because it is his job, i am not sure if the therapy is being effective enough. He perceives me as a person who is suffering a loss of a relationship and is having a hard time adjusting to the new life, whereas perceives my ex as someone with power and control issues.

I would be careful about wondering what his perspective is.  He may be reflecting back your experience for you, not necessarily expressing his personal opinions.  For example: You may be explaining how she hurt you.  

Any story you tell where her role is hurting you and her role is the hurting one... .could lead him to reflect that "truth" of yours back to you.  It could be an attempt at validating you.

I do not think he understands how messed up my uBPDxh was, including his sadistic inclinations, verbal abuses, sex addictions, binge drinking, etc

.

This statement ties into my last one.  It sounds like you are wanting to spend time getting him to understand her "sadistic inclinations."  In this sentence you are actually painting her as a person with power, he may be reflecting this back to you as a form of validating and framing.

As long as you are focusing on HER, he may feel that you need to focus on her.

(He may be waiting for his cue from you that you are ready to move forward)

Why is it important to you to feel that he has an opinion of her that she is "sadistic," "binge drinking," etc?

Why is it that you feel his perception of her behavior is important to your growth?

When I've shared with the therapist that the ex would get into a maniac state and get sexually excited whenever I was sad and crying (after seeing docs, hearing their prognosis on my health status, future risks, etc), he'd console me as if I were a little child, then lift me (while I was still choking on my snot sobbing and absolutely not in the mood for anything)

You stated that you went into therapy to help you "get over" this r/s.

Can you consider the possibility that in this example, the T may be trying to teach and model to you how to self soothe? "Getting over" something is a form of denial.  However, T allowing you to feel and experience your pain and be providing a safe place to feel, IS quite therapeutic.  Continue to do this as long as you need to.  Listen to T and observe the things that you actually do find comfort in.  When you are ready, the next step is to internalize this process of self soothing.  Eventually you will learn a positive soothing self dialogue/technique for yourself.  In the meantime, be comfortable and ok with receiving this from him.  Having just come out of a traumatic r/s, trusting T and being this vulnerable is a HUGE and a wonderful thing!  Be ok with where you are at, this sounds good!

I also think it is great that you have had the chance to be angry at the therapist.  This can be part of the process as well.  Continue to be open to T about how you are feeling about the sessions.  Expressing anger likely was not welcome in your r/s, learning how to be angry and safe and manage this and still work with the person, is very important.

Ok, now I have to say something you may not want to hear.  Your T may never come out and directly tell you that T agrees with your perception of reality.  He may never come out and say how terrible ex was in any way.  I have to admit, this has truly bothered me in my own sessions!  I have wanted to just scream, shake him, anything to feel heard on this!  I felt I NEEDED someone to explicitly tell me how bad ex was to confirm and validate my understanding of reality.  I suspect that I will never get this from my current therapist.  I know that a T I had in the past told me to "run."  I have been tempted to see her a couple of times just because I know she would agree with me.  However, I also feel that the reason my current T does not do this is because of the way he does therapy includes him NOT putting his personal opinions in when the person is not there to judge himself, I also think it is intentional to not limit my focus on him only.  Often if we just label a person disordered, it is a form of denial, we can easily use that to absolve ourselves of looking at ourselves and doing the work we need.  

[Sunfl0wer]

I began therapy with solo sessions from our MC.  In these sessions, I always focused on exSO, my frustrations, pain, and interactions with him.  

This T never confirmed for me my exSO disordered ways, unless it was almost absolutely necessary.  Such as once when I was trying to explain a situation of emotional abuse and my boundary, and him finally "giving in" and agreeing that yes, that is not ok, he agrees that "it" was not ok.  Notice though... .he was agreeing that the event I shared was not ok.  He did not agree that exSO had disordered traits in general, however, he would occasionally validate an individual story at times.

Anyway, in those solos, it was much like you describe.  I often felt frustrated wondering what I was getting out of it.  Looking back, I am grateful in ways I didn't appreciate at the time as I was clouded by my depression and grief.  It was hard to appreciate much of it when I was in that much anguish.  I began to project, and the anger I was feeling for ex that was stuck in me and unable to be unleashed on ex, was coming forth with MC.  I have been in therapy before and understand this to be a natural part of the process.  Lol! I told him I was projecting and mad at him for, "not listening! Not doing enough! Acting like things are normal that aren't! Letting things slide with exSO!" And more.  He thanked me for making his job easy by pointing out my projecting, !  I appreciate that he cared and was like a rock in that room in the storm of my emotions.  It may not have felt like much at the time... .but being a storm of emotion is what I needed, and he was effective at being a safe place for me to share that when it was most needed.

So after many months, when MC told me that me and exSO were over, and when I finally accepted that... .I ended my sessions.  Partly because I was angry, partly because I felt like I had outgrown him and did not need him, partly because I felt he was not my MC, as he was more exSO therapist (they also continued solos)... .I picked him for MC for exSO, not me... .and he and I did not click extra well but it was good enough for me.

So months later, I found a T that I remembered that I had a lot of respect for and feel is a better fit.

Oddly enough, he and I have had very little talk about the ex.  I think this is because my first few sessions he asked me my goals, at first I told him to function without falling apart.  He made me dig deeper each time setting more specific goals.  At first, however, I was unable to come up with anything other than: "function," despite my anguish.  So, I imagine, in a grieving stage, I really couldn't focus on much more.  Eventually, as I experienced more grief, I was able to come up with more goals that were focused on me.

In the meantime, however, it appeared as if we were chatting.  I can see, however, that it was quite skilled chatting.  He was intentional about his chats, modeling certain things for me to grasp.  He never explicitly came out and told me about his method ever, it just seems apparent.

One day when I was grieving and just a bit choked up about nothing in particular, he told me a story.  It seemed odd, like he was talking to a little girl.  I see that it was intentional.  I try to do my best to remember that story, it was a sort of guided mediation.  (He didn't tell me this tho... .I can tell).  Sometimes I'm lonely at night.  I find a way to do a guided imagery... .sometimes I pull from his story, other times I create my own... .I am inventing ways to soothe myself during these vulnerable times for me... .he is providing me inspiration.  

Each visit is different.  Sometimes I get more out of others.  I am always looking for the inspiration in it.

Thanks for listening!

[Turkish]

Mine pegged me as being too analytical and not angry enough. He was glad when I finally showed anger. He also helped center me: "not everything needs to be pathologized." Similar to proust1886's #5, he reminded me of 1 Corinthians 13 (the love verses), in that especially since we were co parents, there was nothing wrong with showing her patience and kindness. He also helped me to not be too hard on myself, such as labeling myself a co-dependent ("I treat a woman for co-deoendency, and trust me, you're not even close to her level".

Being raised by a BPD single mother, I never had a father. My instinct was to choose a female T, because I've always related to women well (it's all I knew). He provided avuncular advice I had always lacked, and helped me "man up" so to speak. It helped me not to fall back to my peacemaker tendencies to man up and do the right thing to protect my children recently. All in all, I found the right T by stepping outside of my comfort zone.

Don't be afraid to change therapists if you feel that one isn't working for you, though its helpful to really examine why you feel that way and try to ascertain if your feelings are valid. We are all individuals, and what works for one person may not work for another.

[ZeusRLX]

Mine pegged me as being too analytical and not angry enough. He was glad when I finally showed anger. He also helped center me: "not everything needs to be pathologized." Similar to proust1886's #5, he reminded me of 1 Corinthians 13 (the love verses), in that especially since we were co parents, there was nothing wrong with showing her patience and kindness. He also helped me to not be too hard on myself, such as labeling myself a co-dependent ("I treat a woman for co-deoendency, and trust me, you're not even close to her level".

Being raised by a BPD single mother, I never had a father. My instinct was to choose a female T, because I've always related to women well (it's all I knew). He provided avuncular advice I had always lacked, and helped me "man up" so to speak. It helped me not to fall back to my peacemaker tendencies to man up and do the right thing to protect my children recently. All in all, I found the right T by stepping outside of my comfort zone.

Don't be afraid to change therapists if you feel that one isn't working for you, though its helpful to really examine why you feel that way and try to ascertain if your feelings are valid. We are all individuals, and what works for one person may not work for another.

Thanks for sharing. How long did you do therapy for? Was it like to solve a specific problem or just ongoing?

I'm considering trying it with someone who specializes in personality disorder but the cost is really, really high and the ones I found don't even take insurance. Yikes.

Just wondering whether $175 per hourly session with no insurance is worth it... .I don't know... .especially on a regular basis. Cause the thing is emotionally I feel just fine... .it's more about getting insights into myself and my attraction to someone with BPD.

Also, what type of therapy is good? I know CBT is one, is that good for nons? Anyone know?

Another one I was considering was DBT. Is that a good one? Anyone care to share?

[Turkish]

Zeus: for support as she was throwing her r/s in my face for the 4 months it took to get her out. Later, advice on how to deal with the struggles around our kids emotionally. my HMO was useless, so I did out of pocket. A new motorcycle (for instance) would have been nice, but I considered it money well spent.

Some members are trying this:

Mood Gym

[once removed]

i tried the mood gym! i do highly recommend it, although i personally didnt get a lot of use from it. from my recollection, its a good form of CBT.

[Reforming]

Hi Zeus,

I think you've already been offered some really good advice.

A few additional thoughts.

I think it's worth doing some research on different therapies to try and find one that's a fit for you. I think the same is true of therapists.

Finding a therapist and a therapy that works for you can take a little time and effort and as Turkish says don't be afraid to look for someone new if you feel that you're not getting what you need.

It's also good to try and have an preliminary meeting / interview with a therapist (this can be done over the phone) to try and explore whether they are the right fit for you. The decent ones won't charge for this and finding a good match is a critical part of therapy. Trust your gut

I found CBT and REBT (Rational Emotive Behaviour Therapy) very helpful during the final break up.

Later on I decided to work with a very experienced Schema therapist because I felt I needed someone who understood the dynamics of a PD relationship (my relationship was quite long) and also because I felt Schema would be a good fit for me.

It was very expensive, but I'd done a fair bit of research on Schema and I reckoned that if I worked with someone who was very skilled and experienced I was more likely to get results within a defined time frame.

As Turkish says it's a question of priorities. I think good therapy is really worthwhile investment in yourself and your future. I wish I'd done it sooner.

I think it's important to agree clear and realistic goals with your therapist.

Healing does take time, and it's really important to not let others rush you through the grieving process. But in my experience moving forward also takes a degree of dogged persistence and courage.

If you want to find out more about Schema it's worth reading Jeffrey Young's book www.amazon.co.uk/Reinventing-Your-Life-Breakthrough-Behaviour/dp/0452272041

There are other good therapies out there that are also very effective. I've heard good things about Compassion Focussed Therapy and as Turkish's said MindGym is worth checking out.

I think there are other things that can really help the healing process. Mindfulness, I've used an app called Headspace, which I found very helpful, exercise can be a great way of lifting your mood and rebooting your brain, and socialising. I think that healing is rarely linear, it's a stop start process and a lot of it happens under the hood so to speak. I found it really helped to immerse myself in something that allowed me to forget the hurt and pain for a while.

The best of luck with your journey

Reforming

[Infared]

I have to mention that when I went to therapy I and neither one of my therapists ever mentioned the term BPD.  I found that awakening here after. I don't think it made any difference... .my therapy was about me... .not her. (She does not need any:-), just ask her!).

I initially went to a therapist who did NOTHING. Just listened. Never had a game plan, no challenges, nada... .just sat there and was comforting. The only thing I can remember that she said that I have walked away with is "men suffer". (I think I already knew that... it was why I was there. :-)). Nice enough person... .terrible therapist. I stopped throwing my time and money away.

I have addiction issues. Clean a long time. I found a T that was a former addict. YES! She listened to me, got me, and started challenging me with my repeated pitfalls and stumblings. I also could not "skate" or pull the wool over her eyes... .she soo knew who I was, (dammit! LOL!) She started a group for therapy of addict men which I was "invited" to join. WOW!  Painful and scary... .but it rocked my pants off.  I got down with taking responsibility for who "I" am. Then things got better.

I was part of the problem... .no wait... .I WAS the problem. I needed to make changes. I was picking VERY sick women. Very sick. Repeatedly. Name your disorder... .it doesn't matter. Me choosing to  be with my BPD (even tho I was lead down a path initially... all the signs were there for me to see that that was not a good choice to invest my heart in), and me choosing to stay in that mess was also the problem... . DUH! :-)

[disillusionedandsore]

I want a therapist to do a little bit more for me than merely paraphrase what I've told them... .I want them to react appropriately to things I'm telling them too... .i.e.  shock,  outrage,  disapproval etc. for validation and a reality check after all the splitting,  crazy-making,  gaslighting and contradictory behaviour of my ex.  I want to know they understand how traumatic that was as it was unfolding and how confusing and evil the behaviour and words could be... .That bit in particular it was hard to get validation for... .Somehow it sounded to me first when I was trying to articulate it,  like I had a wild imagination,  was prone to exaggeration and probably that I bordered on being any combination of suspicious,  anxious and paranoid... .This was my own self doubt... .

I am fortunate enough to have a therapist who knows little about PDs exactly but lots about trauma and abuse and would and does validate the crazy-making stuff in a way that doesn't make me feel like it is being minimised ever.  I was with a God_awful couple's therapist briefly before this who witheld ANY response to anything I said.  I wanted to shake her,  I felt frustrated,  irritated and actually like she would potentially do a whole lot of damage by offering no emotional support at all at a time when I was trying to make sense of insanity. The lack of feedback made me feel crazy! I concur with what others have said,  research options,  try to identify your more pressing needs and interview for best

fit.  Most importantly trust yourself in all this,  this is your journey.

[purpleavocado]

My therapist has been really validating. She's told me many time that BPDexgf isn't going to change, that what she did to me was wrong, that she was manipulative, etc. She even helped me realize that the relationship was abusive, which is a label I resisted using for a long time.

But the more important part of therapy for me was talking about the reasons why this was acceptable to me for so long, and why I still have lingering reactions to her cries for attention.

Although I do get the hint that she's really tired of hearing about her... .whatever, she's getting paid for it. 

if you don't feel like your therapist is helping, I'd definitely encourage you to get a new one. I'd say that mine doesn't talk very much and sometimes I wish she would chime in more, but I think that's just her personality, and if it didn't work for me I'd definitely try to find someone else.

[joeramabeme]

Here is my experience with T's and BPD.

My BPD wife forced me into therapy ~6 years ago whilst I was having a hard time adopting a child with her which at that time, unbeknownst to me, was the result of PTSD from childhood abuse from Mother and abuse within marriage.  The T had been my wife's T of the prior 10 years and served as my, hers and our T. 

I went through intense complex-PTSD therapy for 3 years; shaking-quaking-break downs- anti depressants etc.  Before I go on, I will say that this T was a PTSD specialist and really moved the needle forward on my recovery from childhood abuse.  Ironically it was this realization and recovery from that would ultimately lead to my marital demise.  I have continued seeing this T and now that I am becoming BPD aware am in the process of ending this relationship while already in process of seeing new T. 

As helpful as this T was with PTSD, she is clueless about BPD, even though she states she knows all about it and that she is convinced that my wife's BPD stems from PTSD.  This same therapist casually dismissed and normalized my wife's gaslighting, verbal and emotional abuse while claiming that I was "motherizing" her (AKA: attributing qualities from my abusive Mother to my wife).  My Mother is not a high functioning person, my wife is, hence the conclusion was (from both T and wife) that my wife is not my Mother and I should not treat her as such.

Over the last 6 years we had multiple MC sessions and the T would tell me that I was "motherizing" in front of my BPD wife.  You can imagine how far my BP wife ran with that one.  At times it felt like I had 2 people (both women) telling me that I was unfairly attributing traits to my wife that did not belong to her and one implying I was blaming my wife and my wife accusing me of blaming her for my feelings (CRAZY!).  The T tried to convince me to "work through my fears" and see my wife for who she really is and adopt with her.  Thinking that I was the one who was out of synch with reality; I tried, really hard, but in the end, emotionally I could not do it (multiple attempts).  It was extraordinarily devastating for me and her.

Fast forward to 6 months ago, I first learned about BPD.  Finally an answer to the insanity.  As I read and learn more, I am angry at wife but I am really upset with therapist.  The more I read about BPD I think, how the hell could therapist not see all this.  How the hell could therapist dismiss gaslighting, verbal abuse, emotional abuse, massive splitting, perpetual blame and then so casually dismiss this.  Naively, I gave benefit of doubt to T and brought in SWOE book to read WITH her.  She says that wife may exhibit BPD but it is due to PTSD and this is what must be dealt with.  I ask her about her "Motherizing" comments and how BPs excessively blame and she got all defensive with me and I could see it wasnt going to go anywhere.

Over the most recent 2-3 years I knew something was not right with this T and despite being deeply tied in with her and our work together, got to point where I resolved to shop for a new T and found someone who within 2 weeks told me that wife was abusing me (first time that word was used after 5 years with other T) and that I needed to stop the abusive cycle.  Told me that wife's behavior was way outside the norm and not having child with her was likely very good decision as this would not have fixed marriage.  This T (#2) got very ill and passed, I still miss her.  So back I went to T #1.

Eventually found T#3, who knew something about BPD and met my wife once and told me, no reason to bring her back as she was combative and clearly was not willing to change.  #3 was partially informative about histrionics but not really good overall.

Which brings me to where I am now at T#4, who is good and I can tell can validates that wife is not OK emotionally but I have hard time knowing if he gets true impact of BPD.  Told him I was purchasing SWOE for his collection, to which he replied that he is very familiar with BPD but has never looked at it from the perspective of the NON.  My take away from that is that he is not at all familiar with BPD if he doesn't know the perspective of the NON.  Akin to saying I know all about alcoholism but never thought about it from the perspective of the family impact, BS!

So overall, I have not found anyone in my area versed in this.   For benefit of perspective, I am 25 miles west of Boston, major metro and highly educated area.  There are BPD T's in Boston proper, but this is a lot of drive time and I am not sure that they take insurance but I could find none in my area proper.

In summary, I have met some good T's and have come to see them like auto specialists; most can deal with routine maintenance but for highly specialized needs they are few and far.  Specifically, there are not many T's that seem to really know what BPD is all about. 

I also see this as a need for self advocacy within the care system.  I have to tell them what I need as I am figuring it out and feeding them information that can be integrated with their own abilities and knowledge.  If they are good at what they do, they can adapt and fill in the gaps. 

In the end, BPD or not, I think we all have to learn how and why we got attached to such unhealthy people and how to let go.  A lot of this particular work does not require BPD versed T's; this just my opinion even though I think it would help immensely. 

I am still in deprogramming phase and just really want to share the internal horror that I felt for 10 years experiencing a sick person telling me that I was out to hurt them whilst they ground me down in a twisted and perverted way (that I allowed).

[ZeusRLX]

Thanks Turkish, once removed and Reformed for the great advice, I really appreciate it.  

And thanks to everyone for sharing their experience.

[still_in_shock]

Thank you guys for sharing your experiences. It looks like some of you have met pretty good Ts and have had effective sessions with the use of certain tools and/or general talk therapies. Whereas others wish for a more concrete approach and validation of their partners' BPD nature.

To the question what I am looking for/expecting from the T:

I guess I want him validating that my ex wasn't normal and that he is the BPD. I understand he cannot do this with 100% certainty in the absence of the actual person, and hence my 20 some sessions providing him with the detailed description of our life and his volatile behavior - frequent mood swings between maniac/depressive episodes, rages, inconsistencies, etc. I told the T "To raise the objectivity of your assessment of our case, since he isn't here and it's just me blaming him, here is his perspective of this situation and what he thinks is my role in it". That is, I brought him a 5-6 page letter by my ex where he was painting me black and accusing me as being the one who's ruined the marriage bc of my behavior. Whoever reads that letter will be easily convinced I am the psycho, so well he twisted the whole case. So I brought the letter and showed it to the T saying "he cannot be here to represent/defend himself, so here is his side of the story. I feel bad being here on my own and blaming him while he cannot speak up for himself. So here, see his story". I also shared with the T some of our pictures and numerous of his videos, so the T could psychoanalyze seeing him though the secondary source materials.

I also told the T to actually assess myself to see whether I have any issues going on. By the end of our short marriage, I started to believe that maybe smh is wrong with me. He was so skillful in the mind games that I started doubting myself at the end. As a softhearted empath, it is in my nature to take the blame for all and everything around onto myself. So I've been torturing myself since the BU thinking "what if, indeed, I was too hard on him and that's why he's left"... I still do this occasionally - blame myself, that perhaps I've done things wrong and its all my fault.

To my request to evaluate my sanity, the T smiled and said "Trust me, there is no reason to run the tests on you. You are fine. He's brainwashed you into believing that it was all your fault. You are fine".

To the point: I like the T and wait for our sessions impatiently to go and release all the hurt and pain that gets bottled up during the week. But I thought, perhaps, there exist more effective strategies and therapeutic tools that we should be using, as I heard from a friend of mine who's been seeing MC, that she is given some homework by her T who sends the friend home with questions to ponder over and do some writing to then come back and discussion with the T(MC). We don't do any of these, its just me talking and sobbing 98% of the time.

And most importantly, I just really want to hear the T saying "Yes, still_in_shock, your husband is BPD. And it's all his fault for this marriage to end. Not yours". Honestly, this is what I want to hear. But he never mentions BPD, despite me claiming it all the time. All he does is referring to him as a liar, taker personality type with power and control issues. I want him to say it is BPD, or bipolar, or whatever issue he has. And i know he has some mental thing going on. Whereas the T states personality traits (common to an average human being) and not a disorder of any type. Whereas I know he has a disorder. And that's what I want for the T to admit/voice out/validate for me. And that's what will bring me the peace of mind I am looking for.  

[Sunfl0wer]

It is possible that for him to call your ex BPD is a form of triangulation.

If he does... .

She will be the persecutor, you the victim, him the rescuer.

That would not be conducive to his treatment with you.

[joeramabeme]

And most importantly, I just really want to hear the T saying "Yes, still_in_shock, your husband is BPD. And it's all his fault for this marriage to end. Not yours". Honestly, this is what I want to hear. But he never mentions BPD, despite me claiming it all the time. All he does is referring to him as a liar, taker personality type with power and control issues. I want him to say it is BPD, or bipolar, or whatever issue he has. And i know he has some mental thing going on. Whereas the T states personality traits (common to an average human being) and not a disorder of any type. Whereas I know he has a disorder. And that's what I want for the T to admit/voice out/validate for me. And that's what will bring me the peace of mind I am looking for.  

I had/have been looking for the same.  My T will not say this either.  This story may help explain why getting this validation may not be the "answer" that we seek.

My best friend has heard about all the in's and out's for 10 years.  I have seen his appropriate reaction to what I have told him yet at some level I could not fully take it in.  About a month ago we were talking about my marriage and I apologized for constantly talking about my problems and explained that all I ever wanted was someone to validate my perceptions that something was wrong with my wife and that she was way off base.  He validated it all during that conversation and more.  Importantly, he stated that he had been telling me this the whole time.

In fact, many other close friends, have been validating my perceptions.  It is I who have been the one who discounted and doubted their words.  I thought; he is just saying that to make me feel better or he is hoping that I will move on and so just saying this to me, etc... . 

So I am not sure that getting validation from the outside resolves my internal self-doubt. 

In my most recent T session, explaining what was going on at home, the T described wifes behavior as "primitive".  LOL!  Now that made me feel better!  LOL!  Seriously though, I think the validation has to come from within for it to be lasting and meaningful. 

I am no expert but would happen a guess that as a NON, part of how I get enmeshed in these types of relationships is an underdeveloped sense of self trust that is easy pickings for someone that, like me, has underdeveloped sense of self with the distinction being for the PD everything is not their fault and for the NON everything is their fault.

Hope this all makes sense and thanks for the insightful and in-depth post.

[disillusionedandsore]

Thank you for this,  very well said.  Well illustrated.  I know friends backed me up too but I was in the FOG. It was black and white to them,  just leave they said,  look what he is doing to you... .  I was full of buts at the time and clearly not putting my iwn needs first. The contradictions had me intrigued,  even with that mental illness never came into it for me... .I was thinking special needs... .

[purpleavocado]

And most importantly, I just really want to hear the T saying "Yes, still_in_shock, your husband is BPD. And it's all his fault for this marriage to end. Not yours". Honestly, this is what I want to hear. But he never mentions BPD, despite me claiming it all the time. All he does is referring to him as a liar, taker personality type with power and control issues. I want him to say it is BPD, or bipolar, or whatever issue he has. And i know he has some mental thing going on. Whereas the T states personality traits (common to an average human being) and not a disorder of any type. Whereas I know he has a disorder. And that's what I want for the T to admit/voice out/validate for me. And that's what will bring me the peace of mind I am looking for.  

To be fair, though, your therapist can't really make that call. He can't diagnose someone without having ever met them. He can of course say that the things he did were unhealthy, horrible, abusive, etc. But he can't armchair diagnose someone he isn't treating. It sounds like he could do a much better job of validating your experiences, but it might border on unprofessional to go any further than that.

My therapist has said that my ex sounds like she has some of the hallmarks of BPD, but she can't tell without actually meeting with her.

[tortuga]

I started with T#1 about 15 years ago. I was having what we later determined to be anxiety attacks. They happened at the same time, every day, just around 6pm.  (right after I came home from work). I would be overwhelmed with a feeling like I was about to die. It was radiating from my chest. It was really weird, because I couldn't connect it to anything rational. (well, it was coming home and being with my uBPDw. . . ).

T#1 didn't even scratch the surface of any of it. She basically had me go see a cardiologist, and told me to stop drinking coffee.

A few years later, MC#1 basically just bought into uBPDw's baloney, and decided that all the problems in our relationship were my fault. Apparently, working a 40-hour per week job meant that I was "never around". . .  so we basically stopped after the first few intake sessions.

After a few more years, uBPDw's affairs came to light, and again, of course, it was all MY fault. We went to MC#2 (who became T#2 for me).  This therapist also bought into uBPDw's baloney - but started treating me for codependency.  This rang bells, and raised flags, and my uBPDw began to introspect a little.  After a few months, I learned that uBPDw had been lying to all of us, and she was having affairs again. And still blaming me.  This was when she admitted that she had dissociation issues, and memory loss, and also, suicidal ideation. She skipped a couple of MC sessions, and basically refused to even mention any of her issues, and wanted to go to another MC.  I took this into my own hands and continued my treatment for codependency (and adjustment disorder, and depression) with T#2, and "uninvited" my uBPDw to the MC#2 sessions.

We went to a few sessions with MC#3, who liked to talk about herself a lot.  uBPDw also went to another T, and nothing really came of that.  She then started going to MC#3 as her own T; which was convenient, because MC#3 didn't know that uBPDw was a serial adulterer, or had issues with dissociation, suicidal ideation, or any of that.

With T#2; my sessions were mostly about learning communication skills, learning anger management skills, and then we worked through the John Bradshaw book "Homecoming", to work on my codependency issues. 

Later - I continued with T#2 for almost 7 years now. . . she mostly helps me to validate my reality, when uBPDw tries to make me believe in her crazy.  I also ask her for advice and assurance on parenting issues.  Worked out pretty well for my son, but not dBPDd. . .

... .

As helpful as this T was with PTSD, she is clueless about BPD, even though she states she knows all about it and that she is convinced that my wife's BPD stems from PTSD. 

My T#2 is much the same, in this regard. Though, at least, I don't get much of the "motherizing" BS; though I do "motherize" my uBPDw - I am pretty sure that my mom raised me to be terrified of women. She meant well.

At least my T#2 didn't try to say that I was unfairly attributing my mother's traits to my wife. My wife absolutely has her traits - and T#2 validates that (even if she did not so much, while she was our MC).

Most importantly; the basic communication skills, and techniques for setting boundaries, DID help my situation immensely.  (though I still struggle with validation - and my uBPDw will not allow me to be vulnerable in i-messages at all; she jumps on that like a ravenous wolf).

... .

Fast forward to 6 months ago, I first learned about BPD.  Finally an answer to the insanity.  As I read and learn more, I am angry at wife but I am really upset with therapist.  The more I read about BPD I think, how the hell could therapist not see all this.  How the hell could therapist dismiss gaslighting, verbal abuse, emotional abuse, massive splitting, perpetual blame and then so casually dismiss this.  Naively, I gave benefit of doubt to T and brought in SWOE book to read WITH her.  She says that wife may exhibit BPD but it is due to PTSD and this is what must be dealt with.  I ask her about her "Motherizing" comments and how BPs excessively blame and she got all defensive with me and I could see it wasnt going to go anywhere. ... .

T#2 also looks at uBPDw as more suffering from PTSD; she agrees that uBPDw has the symptoms, but thinks that the cause is trauma.  (she does not accept Nature arguments, it's all Nurture to her - and I think it's really irrelevant).  She also shies away from BPD "because it's a label"; and it puts people into a sort of a "box" with regard to treatment options. Note that "BPD" used to be considered "untreatable".  I think she has a hard time with the concept that anyone can be beyond help - if they want it.

BPD does not fit well within the traditional dogmas and models used in psychiatric treatment. It's a relatively new disorder, and it's fairly controversial. So it shouldn't surprise anyone that "old school" therapists either don't "see" it, or won't deal with it, and especially, won't tell a patient that their spouse has it.  I would have at least liked T#2 to have known when uBPDw was lying to us during about 6 months of sessions, however. . .

T#2 does agree that my uBPDw is abusing me, and has suggested I leave (stop the abuse). I had limited success with setting boundaries; so I decided to compromise on that.

... .

Specifically, there are not many T's that seem to really know what BPD is all about.  ... .

I think that BPD also conflicts with a lot of dogma and models that are out there.

My dBPDd (19) is currently at a RTC, and they ADVERTISE that they treat BPD. But none of them seem to want to put my daughter into that box. She was dx'd by the intake guy at the county mental health place, when she was involuntarily hospitalized.  But her psychiatrist at the RTC doesn't seem to agree with that. (she will take a huge series of tests next week).  Her therapist, likewise, is hesitant to put that label on her, either.  To be fair though, most dogma around BPD seems to say that it's caused by horrible physical or sexual abuse and trauma, during early development - which almost certainly did not happen to my daughter.  As far as I know. 

As far as I can tell, I knew my dBPDd was emotionally sensitive when she was a toddler; and she could get into these unhappy "states", where she could not be consoled, or cheered-up, like other kids. We learned to just accept it.  Our pediatrician at the time told us that she was just hypoglycemic - and that we had to keep her fed on a schedule, avoid sweets, etc.  This wasn't supported by any blood tests. Unfortunately. But in retrospect, I think this was an early sign of BPD (or whatever it is she has).

In any case, she's seeing her T twice a week, plus there are daily DBT "classes", plus group sessions, plus a weekly check with the psychiatrist. So it's not like she isn't getting attention.  She seems to be making progress, (she's honestly much better than when we sent her) - but there are ups and downs, and she's in a facility with other kids, who all have their issues, and it causes a lot of drama, which does not help with mood regulation. She will stay there for a minimum of six months.

I shared with her that her mom and I had been in MC, and that I had been in therapy for 7 years. She is in treatment for addiction as well, so they explained to her what codependency is, so she knew about that, when I told her.  She put 2+2 together. I just didn't want her to feel stigmatized that she had to be in treatment, and see therapists. 

... .

In the end, BPD or not, I think we all have to learn how and why we got attached to such unhealthy people and how to let go... .

This is very important.

I am learning through the "parent coach" at our daughter's RTC, the ways in which I *still* played a role in enabling the toxic family dynamic that quite possibly contributed to dBPDd's breakdown. Even while I was seeing T#2 and directly asking for parenting advice from her, while our young teen daughter was struggling.

I look back at most of my relationships in my past, and I'm pretty sure all but one of my ex girlfriends were BPD or something similar. It's obviously something that I'm drawn to.

... .I am still in deprogramming phase and just really want to share the internal horror that I felt for 10 years experiencing a sick person telling me that I was out to hurt them whilst they ground me down in a twisted and perverted way (that I allowed)... .

It is a very frustrating experience, and it is PURE GOLD to have someone help to validate that for you so that you don't feel like you, yourself, are the crazy one. 

... .

It is possible that for him to call your ex BPD is a form of triangulation.

If he does... .

She will be the persecutor, you the victim, him the rescuer.

That would not be conducive to his treatment with you... .

Everyone should look up the Karpmann Triangle.  I remember this from a handout, early-on in sessions with T#2; and was recently re-introduced to it.  I see, now, that my uBPDw was the abuser, dBPDd was the victim, and I was the rescuer.  We're still stuck in these roles.  It's an absolutely toxic relationship! I thought I was doing better.

She absolutely HAS to be at RTC, she can't be out on her own, and moving back in with us would just start the crazy merry go round all over again.

... .

In fact, many other close friends, have been validating my perceptions.  It is I who have been the one who discounted and doubted their words.  I thought; he is just saying that to make me feel better or he is hoping that I will move on and so just saying this to me, etc... . 

So I am not sure that getting validation from the outside resolves my internal self-doubt.  ... .

Validation is certainly helpful, but it's only part of the puzzle.  Internal validation plays a huge role, and if you don't have that, you're going to discount what other people tell you.

... .

I am no expert but would happen a guess that as a NON, part of how I get enmeshed in these types of relationships is an underdeveloped sense of self trust that is easy pickings for someone that, like me, has underdeveloped sense of self with the distinction being for the PD everything is not their fault and for the NON everything is their fault. ... .

My T#2 says that this is rooted in the issues surrounding my codependency. 

[joeramabeme]

Tortuga, sounds like you have been around the block several times with all of this.  Thanks for taking the time to give such a detailed reply.

Couple questions for you if you don't mind answering.

1) Are you still married?  If yes, do you wish otherwise and if No, have you found a new person in your life and how is that going?

2) The BPD stuff got in the way of our having a family together.  I really regret not having children.  Can you comment on what your experience has been like with a child or if you would have found it to be better to not have a child in this marriage?

Thanks

[still_in_shock]

Thank you for such a good narrative of your experience, tortuga.

[still_in_shock]

Just when I started questioning the approach of my T, by the end of our last session on Monday he's actually said we'd be using imagery as a cognitive therapy to try to change my perception of self. He said my self-criticism is pretty bad, which most likely is the impact of my mom's attitude raising us up.

Also, last session I have had such a bad emotional break down... It actually has scared myself how i totally lost it and was sobbing all shaking, covering my face with both hands... It never happened to me before to lose it like this with a stranger... I was ashamed and terrified afterwards. Ashamed for him to have seen me in that state, which might have actually changed his opinion on me. I really lost it... And terrified, because I freaked out I am losing my mind with everything going on.

Simultaneously these days I am dealing with a frustrating job search (top priority), working on healing the trauma, expecting the divorce any day now, taking care of my immigration (super costly in absence of a proper job) and suffering of a guilt for not being with my father (who i loved most of all in this life) who is very old and ailing, and I cannot really go home to take care of him, as i have to resolve all these problems here. Plus, I am running around seeing docs as its time for my medical check ups, looking for affordable health insurance and all...

Plus, on top of it all, I've realized I am just facing the adjustment issue to the life after cancer and losing important female parts (boobs), as the ex been there for me immediately after and during the surgeries when he was all infatuated and it was the most beautiful time in our relationship. After his sexual, emotional and financial betrayal, I am facing the double burden of adjustment (1) fixing severely broken heart and trust to all human being after the marriage BU, and (2) coping with my sexuality issues and adjusting to the new reality post cancer, body image, etc.

I guess, all these problems have been taking toll on me subconsciously. While I am running around staying busy, things were bottling up inside and I had such a hysterical outcry in his office a few days ago.

I once saw the exact same extent of cry by my uPBDxh. He was bawling as bad (quite similar actually) on a parking lot after having announcing me a couple of days before he's divorcing me, and having done all ugly things described in my signature. I then told me him I was interviewing for 2 pretty good jobs (actually, fantastic jobs), and a few hours later the person was crying just like this telling how much he loved me, had so many dreams unfulfilled and that he wants to give it another try. I believed and agreed. A few days later, I saw his email to a female friend, and an identical copy to his mom, where he was describing me as the one who has cried begging for us to try again...

So my Monday sobbing in T's room was as bad as his then, and I freaked out thinking I might have gotten the BPD now with all the traumas I've been through. I should ask the T to run tests to check on me... .

[purpleavocado]

I'm so sorry to hear all of this, still_in_shock. You've got a lot on your plate above and beyond healing from the the abuse from your BPD ex.

FWIW I think that many, if not most, of us can understand what it's like to feel valued and loved by our exes, only to be devalued and alone while we try to pick up the pieces. And that feeling of being loved in the beginning is very strong. Personally my ex is contacting me again after over 2 years apart, acting like she did when we first met, and it has me questioning everything (even though I know logically that nothing has changed). It is a constant state of mind f*ckery with them, and dealing with it day in and day out for any length of time takes a long time to heal from.

Don't worry about losing it in front of your therapist- I can guarantee he's seen it all.

Be kind to yourself. 

[still_in_shock]

Thanks, purpleavocado. I cannot wait to start more  effective therapy using cognitive therapy tools. i'll keep posted on the progress.

today, i got the medical records with the T for my lawyer where I see him diagnosing me with acute adjustment disorder and anxiety due to the difficult marriage. in his notes he uses words about his "emotional abuse" and "verbal abuse" quite frequently. He also noted that I keep referring to the ex as a BPD and that he is trying to explain me that rather than a specific PD diagnose, he is trying to explain me he (exh) manifests a few traits like narcissism, antisocial, as part of the T-personality type, which stands for the "taker personality". That's the T's dissertation subject, where the T-personality people are preoccupied with power and control issues using all the tools (abuse, threat, lies, manipulations, etc) to get what they want.

[ReclaimingMyLife]

Good question, still_in_shock.  I can really relate.  I was seeing a new T (about 4 times) but it felt like we were meandering a bit too much.  I am ready to dig down, take what I have learned about myself from this r/s and b/u and start doing better. 

So I have just re-engaged with a T I saw 4-5 times last year who heard some of the r/s details while I was in the midst of it.  She does RRT (rapid resolution therapy) which should be a good structure for making tracks in a hurry. 

Additionally, for now, I plan to do weekly DBT self-study which I will share with her.  I am committed to one lesson a week (not rush my way through it) to let it be experiential and let it sink down deep.  I figure if DBT has worked for some seriously hard-core situations then surely it can help me too.  I am pleased with this plan.  I definitely do not want to repeat this r/s experience!

There is something delightful about being able to meander with a T, but my goal, at this moment,  is to get beyond my own push/pull, love/hate tendencies in r/s's.  I do not have the time or resources to spare so am eager to dive in deep. 

As I write those words, "dive in deep," I realize that is what I have done with all of my r/s's.  I dive into the deep end without really scoping out if it is safe or truly desirable.  Which has NOT worked well.  It has been fun and intense but ultimately not successful for my r/s's.  The difference this time is I am ready to dive in deep with MYSELF!  Now, that could be fun

Anyone done DBT self-study?

Thanks!

[still_in_shock]

Just wanted to share an interesting fact re: therapists:

The therapist I was seeing ever since the disaster and for the next seven months (the one who never validated my suspicion of the BPD in my ex, and kept insisting it is his true nature that I was seeing, i.e. mere character), had relocated to a different state. So I had to find a new one.

The new one was listed to actually be specializing in BPDs. Prior to my first meeting with her, I've shared with her a storyline (11 pages) that was prepared for my L so the new T gets the issue background and I didn't have to narrate the whole story again. So it was quite convenient to have that document handy and easy to share.

And when I saw her for the first time, she already had a good understanding of my situation, and right there she did validate my guess saying he seems to be "either bipolar, BPD or sociopath". I felt at the right place, finally. With someone who truly understands. The first T was a great guy, I liked him, he was good at listening and letting me vent. But he never got/agreed on BPD. Not that he denied it, his overall approach was just to see it as a personality flaw rather than a mental health issue. Whereas the new one, clearly gets it.

I am so glad I found her.

[hopealways]

Unfortunately most therapists are not very knowledgeable about BPD. I have found that most people on this forum have more knowledge about the disorder.  Try finding a psychiatrist (M.D. as opposed to psychologist) who also does therapy, they tend to have more knowledge in my experience.

[ReclaimingMyLife]

The first T was a great guy, I liked him, he was good at listening and letting me vent. But he never got/agreed on BPD. Not that he denied it, his overall approach was just to see it as a personality flaw rather than a mental health issue. Whereas the new one, clearly gets it.

I am so glad I found her.

Congrats still_in_shock.  I could imagine your new T actually helping you heal from the shock!

Way to get what you want and need

[still_in_shock]

Thanks, I hope so. I really liked the questions she asked such as "so how often do you think about him", or "what did you learn from the relationship".

My other therapist was super nice, he'd listen but never probe with thought provoking questions like these. For 7 months I was just weeping and venting, hoping to get a validation that the relationship was not going to last anyway. And I never got a validation of a mental disorder in him, but just repeated notion it must be his personality.

I feel strong about her. I cannot wait for our sessions.

The first T was a great guy, I liked him, he was good at listening and letting me vent. But he never got/agreed on BPD. Not that he denied it, his overall approach was just to see it as a personality flaw rather than a mental health issue. Whereas the new one, clearly gets it.

I am so glad I found her.

Congrats still_in_shock.  I could imagine your new T actually helping you heal from the shock!

Way to get what you want and need