Why when she says jump do I feel the need to say how high?

[Allmessedup]

something I have been thinking about this morning... .

My ex has contacted me daily for the last three days.

All about getting some minuscule items back.   Each email/text has been simply informing me that she has stuff in a bag for me and if I don't come get it she will toss it.

The first text was unemotional.  The next day I got an email and it was written in a more loving way.  Reassuring and saying she hoped I was well.  Today the message was angry.

None of the times  did I respond.  She asked no questions.  In all letters she was simply informing me what she was going to do. That is fine.  Whatever is there is not irreplaceable. 

I have already asked her not to contact me when we split and told her I would not respond... that I would "disappear". I have already gotten back what I needed from her shortly before we broke up.

I have made absolutely no effort to reach out to her either.

But my reactions to these attempts in communication are what I would like to work thru.

My initial reaction to the first email was to drop what I was doing and go retrieve the stuff but I didn't want any of the stuff and decided that going and getting it would be more hurtful to me

The next letter didn't effect me as much other than make me feel a bit sad

But today's letter... .written in obvious anger/annoyance to my silence frightened me.  I questioned myself, my motives for being silent and also made me quite concerned that she would see me as cruel, unloving... .

It was a letter written in a sense of anger as well as superiority.

I have been reading the book how to stop CARETAKING the borderline or narcissist and it appears she is trying to put me in that whole victim-persecutor-rescuer triangle.   Right now she is the victim (because she has been so kind as to bag up all my things) and I am the persecutor ( my silence is cruel

)and need to be the rescuer (communicate with her again)

It is interesting how often I ask how high when she says jump.  Even now. 

I also see how strongly her anger effects me and how it makes me question my self.  Decisions I have made after a lot of conscious thought in order to protect myself and heal.

I know I could block her from my email and phone. I really didn't see a need to before and have no issue if I must communicate with her for some reason.  I do not hate her.  But I have no interest in talking to her without a very necessary reason. 

I have her blocked on my social media for my sake.  So I can not see or hear what she is doing.  She can still find out what she wants about me on my website or public FB page I run for my buisness.

I don't care... .I just need to not know what she is doing to heal

At the same time as all of this I could see how very unstable her emotions are in a short time as well as see my reactions vary wildly also depending on what emotion she is displaying.

I believe my reactions (especially to her anger) are related directly to my self esteem.  That I need her to approve... .to think I am a kind and loving person.  I would do whatever I thought might influence that.

So I am not going to respond to her email.  I have no need to.  The only need would be to influence her opinion of me.  Which changes all the time despite what I do or do not do anyway.

My question is that now I can see things clearer, see how this dynamic played over and over again.  What do I do with this information?  How can I use it to work on my own journey in healing?

Thanks for listening

Amu

[eeks]

I believe my reactions (especially to her anger) are related directly to my self esteem.  That I need her to approve... .to think I am a kind and loving person.  I would do whatever I thought might influence that.

Were you taught when you were young that you had to be kind and loving towards others for them to want to be around you?  And perhaps even with a double standard (the person doing the insisting that you were kind and loving did not behave that way towards you)?  Maybe even that you don't "earn" love and care for yourself unless you give it first? 

After reading around these boards I am pretty sure my mother is co-dependent, learned to be to deal with her (probably NPD) father, because there was no arguing with him, he was always right and knew everything.  My mom had to be perfect in social situations because the smallest impropriety would reflect badly on him.

My understanding of what happens when a child experiences trauma but no one is around to help them through it (or if your parents had this kind of unresolved trauma as children) is that they experience the world as unsafe and unmanageable, so they try to control it as a "survival strategy", and that control can include only being able to be acceptable if you are always kind and loving and well-behaved.   

It is also a positive thing to take care of others, but your acceptability as a person shouldn't depend on doing so at your own expense, or based on a "should" and not your authentic motivation to do it (and of course the care should be mutual).  It can be very difficult within yourself to distinguish a sense of care stemming from one's own personal ethics, and an obligation to care that is reflexive, based on a survival strategy/fear of what will happen if you don't.  (it took me years to convince my mother that some of her habits were reflexive)

For me one of the dominant inner "credos" has been "Get it all perfect so they'll want to be with you".  The idea of not doing that feels... .very joyful but I just can't stay present with the intense fear that also happens.  Today I was doing some inner observing and I realized... .this may sound like a weird problem to have but... .the truth is, inside I am a genuinely happy person.  Very happy, just excited to be alive.  And boy does that kind of happiness induce "emotionally violent" reactions in people resigned to their dull lives!

So, you have asked how to work with what you observed in your dynamic with your ex, for your healing, I would say figure out what your own personal "survival strategy" tends to be (sounds like "caring for others, being kind and loving" is part of it at least), and what the "dangerous feelings and actions" would be. 

You are already not responding to your ex's emails, and noticing that you feel an urge to do it "so that she thinks you are a kind and loving person".  Is this about risking other people "thinking badly of you"?

[Allmessedup]

Hey eeks!

Very insightful stuff!  Yes my entire upbringing was centered around being nice, helpful and pretty much otherwise perfect.  That's what I had to do to make my mom happy... .if I didn't then she pretty much withdrew her love altogether.  My mom is definately BPD.

I am terrified of people thinking badly of me.  Or getting angry or dissappointed in me.  It has always been that I never could let anyone down... .even though I am often met down myself.

The idea of someone loving me just for who I am rather than what I can do for them is hard.  I have the same get it all right so they will want to be with you mentality going on.

I am trying to let go of that but it takes a lot of conscious effort on my part for sure. 

But when I do manage to do what I think is best for me rather than what I feel people think I should do, I get this weird sense of pride. 

Like not responding to my ex.  I analyzed it but I managed to choose what was best for me rather than what she wanted. That I think was good.

Of course along with that came the fear that she was going to tell everyone who knew us both that I was this horrible rude hurtful person... .but for once I wanted what was best for me rather than listening to that fear... .

Perhaps in time it will get easier?

[Madison66]

Allmessedup,

First of all, I'm sorry you're dealing with this crap!  You're in the right place and way to go with staying n/c even in the face of repeated contact attempts by your ex gf.  

I'm nineteen months out of a 3+ year r/s with uBPD/NPD ex gf.  If your r/s was anything like mine and many others, we were conditioned by the abuse to walk on eggshells and jump really high to either pacify or satisfy our ex PD partners.  It takes a flipping toll and takes a while to eradicate that feeling from our beings.  So, the next thing I'm going to suggest to you is to cut yourself a break!  I don't think anyone is prepared for the abuse, the emotions and the responses we have to what we encounter in these r/s.  Sounds like similar responses I had when encountered with unwanted contact attempts from my ex gf.  It went on for about nine months and then things finally calmed down after I refused to respond or show any emotions.  Easier said than done - it sucked!

Leading up to the b/u and for about eight months after, I worked with a T to dig into my co-dependent and "people pleasing" traits.  It originated with my FOO and specifically regarding my r/s with my late alcoholic father.  My T helped me to see that I didn't have to own my Dad's issues nor did I have to own my ex's issues.  I didn't need either of their validation to feel self love and acceptance.  Those things reside inside of me.  Hence the shift to looking inward.  Again, easier said than done.  The inward focus lead me to really examine my own values and to see that the r/s didn't fit my values.  I wasn't living my "true self".  The lessons were rough and the wisdom gained will remain with me forever.  I can only suggest that if you can, to talk to a T and dig into this stuff.  Like I said, be easy on yourself and remain n/c.  Peace!

[eeks]

I am terrified of people thinking badly of me.  Or getting angry or dissappointed in me.  It has always been that I never could let anyone down... .even though I am often met down myself.

Something I've been doing lately is "re-narrating" past situations where someone's reaction to me was particularly painful, what the person involved would say if they were emotionally self-aware.  It takes far more time and repetition than I want it to, but doing this is beginning to help me not take responsibility for/try to manage other people's emotions.  

The person who is angry at you, claiming it is because you let them down, give them a speech bubble, inner monologue (or tattoo on their forehead) "I am upset because you triggered something in me that I don't want to look at... .something I did wrong... .so I am going to get angry at you and act all indignant, cause a racket and maybe you will be so busy feeling guilty that you don't notice what I did"

Or they are really telling you "You failed to meet my expectations in some way, and I didn't bother to check whether my expectations were reasonable, so now I am acting entitled"

Or "I am frustrated about some other issue, and taking it out on you instead of dealing with the actual problem"

You get the idea.

Of course that is all speculation on my part, and it will be for you too, when you do it for the specific people whose present or past comments were most emotionally impactful, but that doesn't really matter, you're not going to share these re-narrations with the people in question, it's to help you feel less that their emotions were about you.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Amu, One thing that might help is to remind yourself that you are free to make choices when you hear from her.  Pause.  Don't respond in knee-jerk fashion.  You don't have to drop everything.  You can choose to respond later, if at all.  You can set a different time to discuss, when convenient for you.  You don't necessarily need to jump at all, unless you choose to do so.  I recommend the SHIELD technique:

S = Stress (your Ex contacts you)

H = Honor your feelings; maybe you sense danger?  Maybe you feel angry?

I = Inhale

E = Exhale

L = Look around, Listen, Laugh

D = Decide what response is called for under the circumstances.

You might try it!

LuckyJim

[Allmessedup]

Thank you all SO much for your insight!

Madison 66... .I think I remember you from when my ex and I broke up last year... .glad to hear things are better with you!  I appreciate the reminder to cut myself some slack... .I need it!  The inward seeking is do what I am trying to do here.  I am less than a month out now and I know the more I look inward the more quickly I will heal.  My people pleasing stuff started with my BPD mom... .  I have always been a people pleaser but my relationship with my ex moved it to an entirely different level! Probably because it was quite impossible to please her... .just like my mother... .hmmmmm.

Eeks... .I actually love that idea... .I really do need to stop taking things so personal.  It's not about me... .and internalizing their emotions produces nothing healthy at all.  I did this so much with my ex.  I can look back now and see though exactly what you described.    The biggest blow outs my ex and I had were over if she felt in someway she had disappointed me. Whether she actuslly did or did not was not the point... .either way she ended up very angry at ME!  Transferred her guilt quite nicely into my lap.  I never really saw that before!

Lucky Jim... .SHIELD is a fantastic concept.  It would force me to take a step back and go thru the steps instead of reacting.  I think that will be very very useful especially right now when I am tryin to decipher between things I want to do and hints I feel I am obligated to do.  That is a major thing I am working on right now in regards to my self esteem!  What a great tool!

Today has been a good day.  No contact from her, I have not focused on her much of today at all.  I have kept pretty busy today and reached out to a few people.  Today is one of those days where I think I can get thru this... .and come out better for it.  Thank you all for your support!

Amu

[Panda39]

I am terrified of people thinking badly of me.  Or getting angry or dissappointed in me.  It has always been that I never could let anyone down... .even though I am often met down myself.

Something I've been doing lately is "re-narrating" past situations where someone's reaction to me was particularly painful, what the person involved would say if they were emotionally self-aware.  It takes far more time and repetition than I want it to, but doing this is beginning to help me not take responsibility for/try to manage other people's emotions.  

The person who is angry at you, claiming it is because you let them down, give them a speech bubble, inner monologue (or tattoo on their forehead) "I am upset because you triggered something in me that I don't want to look at... .something I did wrong... .so I am going to get angry at you and act all indignant, cause a racket and maybe you will be so busy feeling guilty that you don't notice what I did"

Or they are really telling you "You failed to meet my expectations in some way, and I didn't bother to check whether my expectations were reasonable, so now I am acting entitled"

Or "I am frustrated about some other issue, and taking it out on you instead of dealing with the actual problem"

You get the idea.

Of course that is all speculation on my part, and it will be for you too, when you do it for the specific people whose present or past comments were most emotionally impactful, but that doesn't really matter, you're not going to share these re-narrations with the people in question, it's to help you feel less that their emotions were about you.

Love the cartoon bubble idea  Another way to change our perception about something being said especially in writing is to flip the pronouns here is a sample from another post of mine... .

--------

Text message from her: Cut the bull****. I'm finally immune. You are no more concerned for me than you are the next person. It's about you, and always has been. This past year has opened my eyes to who you really are. You'd be surprised the things I know about you, and it will all come out. You've already done your best to destroy me, yet here I stand... .stronger than ever and able to play your game right along with you. I'm strong enough to go head to head with you if you want that. I'll tell the truth like I always do, and finally - FINALLY - be free.

--------

Projection is always so interesting.  Lets play a game and flip the pronouns... .

Text message from her: Cut the bull****. You're finally immune. I'm are no more concerned for you than I am about the next person. It's about me, and always has been. This past year has opened your eyes to who I really am. I'd be surprised by the things you know about me, and it will all come out. I've already done my best to destroy you, yet here you stand... .stronger than ever and able to play my game right along with me. You're strong enough to go head to head with me if I want that. You'll tell the truth like you always do, and finally - FINALLY - be free.

Allmessedup identifying the problem is the hardest part, now you will see the issue and you won't just default to that same old knee-jerk reaction you always have now you can catch yourself and change your response.  I have always felt that when you identify the problem and you look at it from another perspective that change in itself brings up new solutions and approaches to the problem.

I have a non-validating mom with some Narcissistic behaviors that have made me feel "less than" and I used to accept the blame and responsibility for things she said and did that were hurtful.  Now I just disengage from that kind of stuff and know that the issue is hers and doesn't have anything to do with me and who I am.  I just spent a week long vacation with her and instead of getting hurt and defensive I just sat back and watched her it was strangely fascinating to watch from a detached place.

Don't be surprised if you hear from the ex like this periodically for sometime.  My SO has been separated 5 years divorced 2 and his ex still tries to reach out about nothing and engage him either in conversation or conflict it doesn't matter if the interaction is positive or negative it's really only about having interaction.  It always reminds me of the old Bell Telephone ads (you may be too young to remember ) the slogan was... ."Reach out... .Reach out and touch someone... .Reach out... .and just say Hi!"