People select partners who have the same level of emotional maturity...

[Surg_Bear]

People select partners who have the same level of emotional maturity... .

Members said: Fact-66% | Legend-34%

  The is a fact.  

This is Fact.  Yet 34% of members said "no" to this long standing family theory - Bowen's "family systems" theory.

An individual's overall life functioning is linked closely to his level of emotional maturity or differentiation. People select ... .partners who have the same level of emotional maturity. Emotional immaturity manifests in unrealistic needs and expectations. ~ Murray Bowen, M.D

39% of members voted that this was an "urban legend"  - which is interesting  when you think about it - members often say they saw the red flags but ignored them - they knew the relationship was doomed, but stayed --  or put in other words, their emotions overruled their common sense (intellect).

The concept of Differentiation of Self is the ability to separate feelings and thoughts. Undifferentiated people can not separate feelings and thoughts; when dealing with relationships, they are flooded with feelings, and have difficulty thinking logically and basing their decisions on that. This often manifests as unrealistic needs and expectations.  Further, they have difficulty separating  their own feelings from the feelings of others.

Differentiation is described in many ways in the following points:

1. Growing in the ability to see where and how I fit into my relationship, the position I hold and the power that is and is not given to that position.

2. Growing in the ability to be fully responsible for my own life while being committed to growing closer to those I love.

3. Intentionally developing, at the same time, autonomy and intimacy. In developing autonomy I set myself towards achieving my dreams and ambitions. In developing intimacy, I allow those close to me to see and know me as I really am.

4. Being willing to say clearly who I am and who I want to be while others are trying to tell me who I am and who I should be.

5. Staying in touch with others while, and even though, there is tension and disagreement.

6. Being able to declare clearly what I need and requesting help from others without imposing my needs upon them.

7. Being able to understand what needs I can and cannot meet in my own life and in the lives of others.

8. Understanding that I am called to be distinct (separate) from others, without being distant from others.

9. Understanding that I am responsible to others but not responsible for others .

10. Growing in the ability to live from the sane, thinking and creative person I am, who can perceive possibilities and chase dreams and ambitions without hurting people in the process.

11. Growing in the ability to detect where controlling emotions and highly reactive behavior have directed my life, then, opting for better and more purposeful growth born of creative thinking.

12. Deciding never to use another person for my own ends and to be honest with myself about this when I see myself falling into such patterns.

13. Seeing my life as a whole, a complete unit, and not as compartmentalized, unrelated segments.

14. Making no heroes; taking no victims.

15. Giving up the search for the arrival of a Knight in Shining Armour who will save me from the beautiful struggles and possibilities presented in everyday living.

To differentiate is to provide a platform for maximum growth and personal development for everyone in your circle of influence. It means being able to calmly reflect on a conflicted interaction afterward, realizing your own role in it, and then choosing a different response for the future. Not to differentiate is to fuse (the failure to become a separate person) with others and to place responsibility on others (or on situations, predicaments, and hurdles) for the way in which our lives develop.

These widely accepted theory were developed by Murray Bowen, M.D. in the late 1940s and early 1950s when he was a psychiatrist at the Menninger Clinic. After his time at Menningers, he moved to the National Institute of Mental Health, then to Georgetown University Medical Center and finally established the Georgetown Family Center in Washington, D.C.

Bowen's therapy is a process of increasing one's differentiation or ability to balance automatic reactivity and subjectivity with a factual view of oneself and others.


www.bowentheoryacademy.org/6.html

www.difficultrelationships.com/2006/03/25/bowen-differentiation/

www.psychpage.com/learning/library/counseling/bowen.html

I tend to agree with the matched emotional level at the selection process point in our lives.

But I would caution anyone to think that Bowen's family systems theory is "Fact"- theory and fact are mutually exclusive concepts.  Just because it is widely accepted in some sectors of American Psychological Association, does not make it universally accepted, and certainly not fact.

I think there is a key point to realize about this bpdfamily "Fact" before it pathologizes every single member on this forum is that this theory is talking about the point in an individual's life at the selection process moment.

In a given room of 100 people, I do think there is a natural, and not fully understood phenomenon whereby people will gather in groups based on emotional and age-related maturity.  In that room, at that moment in time.  People do not mature at the same rates.  Some people do not differentiate at all; while others move along the differentiation into true selfhood at a reasonable and common rate of development. 

The thing we must remember is that as we grow, and are better able to use healthy ways of interacting with our people with BPD, and all of the people in our lives, our maturity level LEAVES that level we were in when we selected our partners. 

Bowen's theory does NOT state that we are forever locked in the same maturity level as our BPD partners forever and ever.  We can use the tools found here on this website to help us out of the stagnating and pathological ways of relating to sufferers of BPD, and become freed to get back on our own paths of self differentiation.  For some, this means leaving the relationship, for others it means staying.

I believe there may be a tendency for those reading this thread to feel that this website, or this forum believes that I am at the same maturity level of my BPD wife.  That may be true of me, as a 23 year old man.  I am 48 years old now, and I have grown into a pretty well differentiated middle aged man who is 25 years older and a few levels up on the emotional maturity scale as I was at age 23.  My wife with BPD has grown tremendously during this time, as well.  I would find it a stretch to say that she and I are currently functioning on similar emotional levels.

Bowen's theory is an intellectually and appealing one to many people, but that does not make it fact.  It remains a theory of wide appeal.

I think that people working on their relationships with persons with BPD using this website should be commended for their commitment to self that is differentiating themselves from the person they were, when selecting their partners.  It is OK to think of yourself as an emotionally mature individual if you are one. It is not OK to do so, if you are not. 

Adults with BPD tend to think they are emotionally mature individuals, and when selecting a mate, they may be good at mirroring and putting forth a mature appearing persona, but inside, they are still functioning on a 4 year old's emotional level.  As the realities of life and the relationship chip away at that persona and that mirroring, the person with BPD "regresses" into their pathological ways of relating to the world and their relationship partners in the typical BPD / reactive / splitting ways.   

Of course, these are my opinions, and nothing more.  Not meant to be derisive, or meant to be offensive to any single or group of individuals.

Surg_Bear   

[Skip]

I tend to agree with the matched emotional level at the selection process point in our lives.

Good start.  

Bowen's theory does NOT state that we are forever locked in the same maturity level as our BPD partners forever and ever.  

True.  Hopefully that is why we are all here.  To seek a higher level of emotional maturity and EQ.

I think there is a key point to realize about this bpdfamily "Fact" before it pathologizes every single member on this forum is that this theory is talking about the point in an individual's life at the selection process moment.  

It is not limited to a point in time, actually, although what you say can be true. At the same time, having read 1,000's of member files, I can attest that we have many members that carried a low level of emotional immaturity through their relationship and into their recovery and on into another relationship. And we have members everywhere, in-between.

The point of any of this is not to label, but to enlighten. At lot of members get caught up in labeling, and unlabelling.

She has BPD. I don't.

It's not the point. The point is, is to explore this and ask yourself is there something identifiable, with a prescribed pathway to cure, that I can find and act on.

If so.  :)o it.

This theory was shocking to me when I first read it.  Could I actually have emotional maturity issues?  Me? But then I flipped it around and said, could I have had greater emotional maturity and would it have helped me, made a difference?  The answer is yes and I am mindful of that every day. I am not as sure that my reactions are as "right" as I believed. Now I think about things more, explore more, open myself to being able to change direction. Hold myself more accountable.

It has helped me to do this it has helped others.

I believe there may be a tendency for those reading this thread to feel that this website, or this forum believes that I am at the same maturity level of my BPD wife.  

I don't know that anyone has blindly labeled you (or anyone else) based on Bowen's theory.  I think members who really understand these tools use them to help others find solutions.

I also wince a bit when I see a member ask - do I have BPD? - get an answer like "If you are asking you can't possibly be BPD" - and respond with "Whew! Good".  The real question should be - I have huge abandonment anxiety - why is that - what can I do.

theory and fact are mutually exclusive concepts.  

Ah. Labeling     Technically, they are partially overlapping conditions.  

Good discussion.

[vortex of confusion]

But I would caution anyone to think that Bowen's family systems theory is "Fact"- theory and fact are mutually exclusive concepts.  Just because it is widely accepted in some sectors of American Psychological Association, does not make it universally accepted, and certainly not fact.

If you are talking about looking at it at the point of selection, than it is a fact. If my spouse and I were at totally different levels of emotional maturity when we met, I probably would have walked away right then. The truth is that when I met my husband, we were at very similar places. We had both just broken up with somebody and we could both be pretty juvenile. Heck, we had to go through premarital counseling before we could get married in his church. That included taking compatibility tests. Those tests showed that we were a pretty even match.

I think there is a key point to realize about this bpdfamily "Fact" before it pathologizes every single member on this forum is that this theory is talking about the point in an individual's life at the selection process moment.

I don't see it as pathologizing as much as I see it as waving red flag saying, "Hey, stop for a second and look at yourself. Are you complaining about your partner without looking at your side of things?"

In a given room of 100 people, I do think there is a natural, and not fully understood phenomenon whereby people will gather in groups based on emotional and age-related maturity.  In that room, at that moment in time.  People do not mature at the same rates.  Some people do not differentiate at all; while others move along the differentiation into true selfhood at a reasonable and common rate of development. 

I wonder what is considered a reasonable and common rate. I will be 40 this year and I feel like I am just now starting to grow up. As long as I was stuck in a certain place, my husband and I got along a lot better. When I started to grow and mature and want more, that is when things went haywire. For a while, I think I actually regressed into a state of complete emotional immaturity. During our marriage, I feel like I continued to grow while my husband didn't. I felt like the adult for the longest time. When I got tired of it, I decided that it was my turn to be the petulant child. I have since come out of that and I know that when I found this place I was really mad that somebody would have the nerve to say that my husband and I were at the same level.

I recently listened to a pod cast about this topic. One of the things that was brought up is that your relationship is only as strong as the weakest link. For example, if on a scale of 1 to 10 one person communicates at a 3 and the other person communicates at an 8, then the communication of the relationship will only be a 3. I wonder if the same applies to emotional maturity. In order for the relationship to grow and be sustainable, both parties need to grow at similar rates OR one person needs to step it up or even dial it back. Just pondering. . .

The thing we must remember is that as we grow, and are better able to use healthy ways of interacting with our people with BPD, and all of the people in our lives, our maturity level LEAVES that level we were in when we selected our partners. 

That is assuming that one grows in a positive manner. Some people regress. Some people grow but in a negative direction. I can say that I was growing as I aged. However, some of that growth was negative. I went from being a very head strong person to a very passive person and then I got mad when my husband would treat me like the strong person rather than the passive one. I am sure that doesn't make much sense.

I believe there may be a tendency for those reading this thread to feel that this website, or this forum believes that I am at the same maturity level of my BPD wife.  That may be true of me, as a 23 year old man.  I am 48 years old now, and I have grown into a pretty well differentiated middle aged man who is 25 years older and a few levels up on the emotional maturity scale as I was at age 23.  My wife with BPD has grown tremendously during this time, as well.  I would find it a stretch to say that she and I are currently functioning on similar emotional levels.

I don't think the information is there to judge you. I don't think anybody on an internet forum can accurately judge what is going on in your life or how mature or immature you are. These situations are so complex and difficult to communicate with others about. If the two of you were functioning on similar emotional levels, you might not be having problems. 

It is OK to think of yourself as an emotionally mature individual if you are one. It is not OK to do so, if you are not.

How does one know if he/she is emotionally mature? I can stand in a garage and say, "I am a car" yet not be a car. The same thing goes for emotional maturity. Me claiming to be emotionally mature doesn't make it so. I can look back on times in the past when I thought I was being mature. Now that I look at some of MY behaviors through a different lens, I can see that I was anything but mature. It took me changing to see how bad some of MY behaviors were. I think the purpose of pointing out the maturity levels theory is to get people questioning and looking at themselves instead of hyperfocusing on what it is that their partners are or are not doing.

Adults with BPD tend to think they are emotionally mature individuals, and when selecting a mate, they may be good at mirroring and putting forth a mature appearing persona, but inside, they are still functioning on a 4 year old's emotional level.  As the realities of life and the relationship chip away at that persona and that mirroring, the person with BPD "regresses" into their pathological ways of relating to the world and their relationship partners in the typical BPD / reactive / splitting ways. 

As somebody that has been with my husband for 17 years, I can honestly say that I started out being very differentiated. Over time, we became completely enmeshed. All of the growth that happened was us becoming more fused together. I became obsessed with fixing the relationship and figuring out how to make things better. I picked up a lot of fleas and I became very reactive. It is easy to say that a pwBPD regresses. I think that people that put up with it for a really long time regress too. At least that is my experience. There are things that I have allowed in my relationship that I wouldn't ever think of allowing when my husband and I first got together. If he had pulled some of this crap when we were dating or in the early years, I would have had a conniption fit. Now that I have gone back to having that "don't jack with me attitude" he is stepping up to the plate rather nicely.

Thanks for starting this discussion. I have wrestled with the emotional maturity stuff too. I wonder if you would get a better response on the staying board. People on the leaving forum don't really have any motivation to check themselves as they are leaving the relationship. In that situation, it is rather easy to focus on the pain of leaving without really taking a deep personal inventory. That isn't always the case though. I just know that in my own experience, when I was planning on leaving, I had no reason to look at my role in anything. I was convinced that my husband was a petulant child and I was the perfect wife.   Now that I am back on the staying board and am focused on staying, it is necessary for me to do a bit more self reflection.

[Surg_Bear]

 Could I actually have emotional maturity issues?  Me? But then I flipped it around and said, could I have had greater emotional maturity and would it have helped me, made a difference?  The answer is yes and I am mindful of that every day. I am not as sure that my reactions are as "right" as I believed. Now I think about things more, explore more, open myself to being able to change direction. Hold myself more accountable.

I think this is the key- and something that really is the most difficult to do in a relationship.  Hold myself more accountable.  If only it were as easy as holding "them" accountable.

It is why I find myself a little more comfortable with discussions on the Staying and Undecided Forums- there is more an effort to do this- hold oneself accountable, and everyone chimes in to stir the poster to do so.  The Leaving forum can often feel like using the lack of accountability in BPD as the launching board.  Which is fine, but I cannot celebrate in the spirit of this too much because I still have 2 cups in my hands, and they are both filled to the brim.  Holding them carefully as I walk, so as not to spill a drop. 

Cup # 1 = I love my wife

Cup # 2 = I have compassion for my wife's suffering

I'm looking for ways to carry both cups, and take care of me.  I am certain that taking care of me involves gently separating from this marriage, and I'm having a hard time finding advice in doing this when there is little about this in the Leaving forum.  A topic for another thread, I think.

I think there is a key point to realize about this bpdfamily "Fact" before it pathologizes every single member on this forum is that this theory is talking about the point in an individual's life at the selection process moment.

I don't see it as pathologizing as much as I see it as waving red flag saying, "Hey, stop for a second and look at yourself. Are you complaining about your partner without looking at your side of things?"

In a given room of 100 people, I do think there is a natural, and not fully understood phenomenon whereby people will gather in groups based on emotional and age-related maturity.  In that room, at that moment in time.  People do not mature at the same rates.  Some people do not differentiate at all; while others move along the differentiation into true selfhood at a reasonable and common rate of development.

For a while, I think I actually regressed into a state of complete emotional immaturity. During our marriage, I feel like I continued to grow while my husband didn't. I felt like the adult for the longest time. When I got tired of it, I decided that it was my turn to be the petulant child. I have since come out of that and I know that when I found this place I was really mad that somebody would have the nerve to say that my husband and I were at the same level.

Did you decide to be a petulant child? Or were you taking your turn to be selfish?  There are time where selfish is good and healthy (ex- during sex there is no release if you're always selfless) and times when selfish = petulant child taking a turn.

My Shrink is asking- at times, pleading, with me to be selfish.  To allow myself just once to be selfish.  It can be so hard to do, when it feels like all of the weight of the relationship is on one's shoulders.  It is not.  Just feels like it.  I left for 10 days, and when I came back, the dog hadn't died from not being fed.  There was no poop in the litter box or in the front yard.  A surprise to me given when I'm here, Daddy is the sh1t picker upper.  I need a vacation, and for some god awful reason, I will not take one.  There is no logic in this.

I was convinced that my husband was a petulant child and I was the perfect wife.   

I have no doubt- you ARE the perfect wife, VOC. 

I love your posts, but especially love it when you challenge me and my cursed logic.

Thank you, Skip and Vortex.

Surg_Bear

[Skip]

The Leaving forum can often feel like using the lack of accountability in BPD as the launching board.  Which is fine, but I cannot celebrate in the spirit of this too much because I still have 2 cups in my hands, and they are both filled to the brim.  Holding them carefully as I walk, so as not to spill a drop. 

Cup # 1 = I love my wife

Cup # 2 = I have compassion for my wife's suffering

I'm looking for ways to carry both cups, and take care of me.  I am certain that taking care of me involves gently separating from this marriage, and I'm having a hard time finding advice in doing this when there is little about this in the Leaving forum. 

Reach out (you'll need a good subject line).

You want to "release with grace."  Let's have that conversation.

[vortex of confusion]

Did you decide to be a petulant child? Or were you taking your turn to be selfish?  There are time where selfish is good and healthy (ex- during sex there is no release if you're always selfless) and times when selfish = petulant child taking a turn.

Oh yes, I was a very petulant child. I know the difference between taking care of myself and throwing a temper tantrum. I am pretty sure I was throwing a bit of a temper tantrum. I did some very immature things on social media. I tagged my husband in a post that said something along the lines of, "Free wife. Contact Mr. VOC for details. All you need to do is clean her up before you send her home." (There is a backstory to that.) I shouldn't have posted that crap at all. My husband wouldn't hear me when I was trying to be rational and grown up so I pulled out all sorts of juvenile antics. If he wanted to play games with me, I was going to play and I was going to win.

That is hardly the attitude of somebody that is being emotionally mature.

My Shrink is asking- at times, pleading, with me to be selfish.  To allow myself just once to be selfish.  It can be so hard to do, when it feels like all of the weight of the relationship is on one's shoulders.  It is not.  Just feels like it.  I left for 10 days, and when I came back, the dog hadn't died from not being fed.  There was no poop in the litter box or in the front yard.  A surprise to me given when I'm here, Daddy is the sh1t picker upper.  I need a vacation, and for some god awful reason, I will not take one.  There is no logic in this.

Listen to him! My dad gave me this same advice. He told me to take a vacation and get some space. Every excuse I gave him, he shot down. I was worried about the kids. He said that him and mom would help with the kids if needed. I was worried about the money. He gave me the money. And, he told me to not talk to my husband during that week. If there was an emergency, my husband could call my parents instead of me. THAT was being a bit selfish. I was very practical in planning my trip. I made sure that all of the bills were paid. I made sure that my husband and kids had everything they needed. I created back up plans in case there were any problems with pretty much anything.

That was taking care of myself. The other stuff that I did was not being selfish. It was being immature and playing games. But, in some ways, it kind of felt good. One of the things that my dad told me is that sometimes you need to let yourself mess up and be a little juvenile. It keeps you humble. When in a relationship with somebody like my husband (or mother), it is really easy to get up on that high horse and look down on them because you are perfect and they aren't. Sometimes you have to knock yourself down a peg or two.

I have no doubt- you ARE the perfect wife, VOC. 

I don't want to be the perfect wife. I want to be completely human. In all of this, my husband has never really said anything bad about me directly. He would probably be the first one to tell you that I am the perfect wife. The problem was that his actions didn't align with his words. If I was such a great wife, why did he seem to prefer computer games to spending time with me? If I was such a great wife, why wasn't he more plugged in? If I was such a great wife, why couldn't he plan a date and get excited about spending time with me?

Words are just words!

As far as detaching goes, I think it is possible to detach with love while staying in the relationship. It is a huge challenge though. I had a lot of motivation to try it because of the kids and number of years married. The first step is to STOP worrying about the relationship and start worrying more about you. Take that vacation and be a little selfish. You leaving home for a week will not up end the world and cause a natural disaster. I forget exactly how my dad said it but he said something along the lines of, "They will be okay without you. It might be rough for them but they need to learn how to get along without you. If something happened and you died tomorrow, you wouldn't be around to help them. It is better that they learn this stuff now."