Attorney and forensic psychologist

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Hi all.

I was sued for sole custody and supervised visitation + child support + $ extras for my 2.5 month old daughter.

She lied to me about being married, lied to me about fertility, kicked me out of her house, and harassed/stalked/threatened/manipulated/broke in to my house/destroyed my reputation/impersonated me online.

She just went in to the state office and needed no paperwork.

I hired a lawyer on Saturday. 5k retainer.

She's sending me photos of the baby and videos everyday to cover her ass. She tries to look like I'm not responding to her when she asks for my input on a decision. I am totally being set up. I can't be civil with someone who is slandering me online saying I have herpes am a deadbeat... .etx while saying I need supervised visitation.

The worst part is her using her ex-husband as a proxy abuser.

He has my infant daughter posted on his facebook page, lying on her back as his "profile".

Other things posted on his facebook page. Threatening to beat me up repeatedly. Pictures of Nazis. Talking about how I should have been "aborted in the oven my mom was living in". Pictures of concentration camps. White people riding black people like dogs... .etc... .

You get the picture.

I am so physically sick. Every morning I wake up and vomit. This is the worst thing that has ever happened to me. I am worried about this child, yet hardly have any bond with her... .it isn't safe for me to have feelings. But I can't control them. I want to protect her but I can not.

I contacted CPS. They said the child wasn't in immediate physical harm and that the courts have more leeway.

My soul hurts. I don't think I could explain to you the pain I feel. I have a 60 page document detailing the behavior. I am numb out of self preservation, with emotions leaking out here and there. This is torture.

I feel like nobody understands. I just get lectured. What can I do there isn't going to be a court date for 3-4 months. At that point her primary caregiver status and the fact I had to leave the state... .

This isn't natural.

I think people want to judge me for being so upset. For freaking out.

Honestly, I don't think most people are wired any differently. I don't think most people could tolerate being in my shoes... .but then again what choice do I have? It's like terrorists holding the kid hostage, and rubbing it in my face.

I think she's trying to bait me in to shared custody so she can maintain control over me. I don't think she really wants supervised visitation. She wants me to have to go to mediation with her. To be forced to move back there. So she can continue to violate my boundaries over and over. See me with the kid to fulfill her obsessive fantasies.

I would like to rescue the child and take care of her on my own, but I know it's impossible. I just don't think my documentation will be read throughly, taken seriously, or maybe even be objectively bad enough from what I've heard to award custody to me, an out of state unmarried father.

Feeling no win here. 

[stoic83]

Hi all.

I was sued for sole custody and supervised visitation + child support + $ extras for my 2.5 month old daughter.

She lied to me about being married, lied to me about fertility, kicked me out of her house, and harassed/stalked/threatened/manipulated/broke in to my house/destroyed my reputation/impersonated me online.

She just went in to the state office and needed no paperwork.

I hired a lawyer on Saturday. 5k retainer.

She's sending me photos of the baby and videos everyday to cover her ass. She tries to look like I'm not responding to her when she asks for my input on a decision. I am totally being set up. I can't be civil with someone who is slandering me online saying I have herpes am a deadbeat... .etx while saying I need supervised visitation.

The worst part is her using her ex-husband as a proxy abuser.

He has my infant daughter posted on his facebook page, lying on her back as his "profile".

Other things posted on his facebook page. Threatening to beat me up repeatedly. Pictures of Nazis. Talking about how I should have been "aborted in the oven my mom was living in". Pictures of concentration camps. White people riding black people like dogs... .etc... .

You get the picture.

I am so physically sick. Every morning I wake up and vomit. This is the worst thing that has ever happened to me. I am worried about this child, yet hardly have any bond with her... .it isn't safe for me to have feelings. But I can't control them. I want to protect her but I can not.

I contacted CPS. They said the child wasn't in immediate physical harm and that the courts have more leeway.

My soul hurts. I don't think I could explain to you the pain I feel. I have a 60 page document detailing the behavior. I am numb out of self preservation, with emotions leaking out here and there. This is torture.

I feel like nobody understands. I just get lectured. What can I do there isn't going to be a court date for 3-4 months. At that point her primary caregiver status and the fact I had to leave the state... .

This isn't natural.

I think people want to judge me for being so upset. For freaking out.

Honestly, I don't think most people are wired any differently. I don't think most people could tolerate being in my shoes... .but then again what choice do I have? It's like terrorists holding the kid hostage, and rubbing it in my face.

I think she's trying to bait me in to shared custody so she can maintain control over me. I don't think she really wants supervised visitation. She wants me to have to go to mediation with her. To be forced to move back there. So she can continue to violate my boundaries over and over. See me with the kid to fulfill her obsessive fantasies.

I would like to rescue the child and take care of her on my own, but I know it's impossible. I just don't think my documentation will be read throughly, taken seriously, or maybe even be objectively bad enough from what I've heard to award custody to me, an out of state unmarried father.

Feeling no win here. 

[ForeverDad]

REALITY CHECK... .

She can file asking for the sun, moon and stars, too often it is standard boilerplate... .doesn't mean she will get it.  Period.

She can get a temporary restraining order ("ex parte" or emergency) if a judge feels you might be a risk or danger to the child... .court will have children's services or CPS will be asked to make an assessment of you.  (Sadly, only you and not her, only the target is assessed, not unless you make your own allegations against her.)  Then in a couple weeks the court will have a hearing to consider the agency's results and hear both sides state their cases.  Odds are the court will remove the "supervised only" contact (if it had been ordered) or possibly extend it while both of you get deeper assessments.

However, since she made such extreme statements and since the baby is very young, you may start off with only a few very short visits.  Your goal is to ramp it up as fast as the court will allow to a 'normal' visitation schedule.  Frankly, as counter-intuitive as it sounds, you will need to be an involved father with firm court-ordered boundaries to set limits to her 'control' over you.  Find out what a normal schedule is in your area.  In mine, children under three years of age have 3-4 hour visits every 2-3 days and a shortened weekend with just one or two overnights.

Beware of her claiming you can't have any overnights!  Once the court concludes you aren't a risk to the baby (abuse, neglect or endangerment) then you need to get a NORMAL schedule.  She shouldn't be able to demand visits only in her presence.  She shouldn't be able to block overnights.  Either you're a danger or you're not.  Either you're reasonably stable or you're not.  See the point?  While you might be limited to supervised for a while or not get overnights at first, that should at most be only for the short term, a month or two until a subsequent hearing.

Too, you will have to present as a normal father.  That means you must ramp back your tendency to make extreme statements.  Yes, she evidently is a person with deep issues but you can't make blanket statements that indicate your own perspective or thought process is in any way extreme.  That won't help your case.

Meanwhile, counseling for you is a good thing.  You can phrase it to the court as counseling, not primarily for your issues but to deal with the relationship issues.

[stoic83]

I don't live in the same city as she does. I live in Seattle and she lives in Portland. 3.5 hour drive.

Not moving back. They have to offer some sort of out of state visitation, I'd imagine.

I think my only hope is to get her convicted/arrested on one or more of the crimes she's committed and then file an emergency custody order.

[stoic83]

Have any men here won sole custody of their infant child? Is it possible?

[ForeverDad]

That's two answers probably.  Courts often wrap it into one package, one order, but usually it is two parts.

Legal custody - sole, joint/shared - it affect the major decisions about child's life.  Courts are often reluctant to grant sole custody unless substantive abuse, neglect or endangerment becomes a factor.  Unless you are seen as unfit then joint custody is most likely.  Don't give up.  You can still present your case why you see a need for you to have Decision Making or Tie Breaker, such as that (1) she has been and will continue obstructing your parenting with impact to the child and (2) she will sabotage or fail to agree on things for child's benefit.

Parenting schedule - Mothers often get majority parenting time, especially of small children.  You need to document to the court's satisfaction why the child would do better with you having more time.  You may not get it at first but if you document more incidents such as order violations, obstruction of your parenting, etc then you may get the court to gradually adjust/improve the order.

Don't forget holiday time, usually alternated between parents, with differences if the parents are in different areas.  The remote parent usually gets more of the longer school vacations.  Don't forget vacations, usually not much to start but as child is older and able to walk it would be 2 to 3 weeks each year.  My county says 1 week or 2 week vacations with a maximum of 3 weeks total per year.

[ugghh]

Stoic, it sounds as if you are not in a very good space right now.  Perhaps even experiencing some PTSD from what you have been through.  If you are not currently seeing a good mental health professional to help you work through this situation, I highly suggest that you start looking now.

Frankly, you have to take control back of your life.  You are giving her the power to do what she is doing. Why are you still even looking at her or her ex's Facebook.  Do you expect it not to be filled with lies?  If you hit your thumb with a hammer and it hurts, do you keep doing it?

With the help of a therapist, a good attorney and whatever other network you have I think you need to step back and ask some questions.

1)  Do I want to be involved in my child's life or not?

2) Will my child be better with me being more or less involved in her life?

3) Can I stop focusing on the past wrongs (the courts usually don't care) and focus and making the best of the situation going forward? 

Your ex is already 10 steps ahead of you and you are playing defense.  It is not an insurmountable situation but it will take a lot of effort to turn it around.  I know this sounds really blunt, but that how it appears based on the situation you have described. 

[ugghh]

Addendum - I have gone back and read some of your earlier posts and see that you are indeed under the care of professionals.  I am glad for that and hope you stay the course.  While the situation seems bleak now, you can survive this.  And yes it is perfectly okay to make caring for yourself the first priority.

[stoic83]

Addendum - I have gone back and read some of your earlier posts and see that you are indeed under the care of professionals.  I am glad for that and hope you stay the course.  While the situation seems bleak now, you can survive this.  And yes it is perfectly okay to make caring for yourself the first priority.

Honestly, I think you people fail to understand me at all. I am livid because of the situation my child is in. I have absolutely no idea why you are questioning my mental stability.

I thought this was a safe place to vent, and I am outraged.

I can't understand how anybody on here could think I'm the one with the problem, when I'm explaining to you that the woman with custody of the child has borderline personality disorder and is possibly a sociopath?

This is really unsettling. I have compiled a lot of evidence and if any of you have lived what I have lived through there is no way you can sit there and judge me. You have no idea what I have been going through.

[stoic83]

That's two answers probably.  Courts often wrap it into one package, one order, but usually it is two parts.

Legal custody - sole, joint/shared - it affect the major decisions about child's life.  Courts are often reluctant to grant sole custody unless substantive abuse, neglect or endangerment becomes a factor.  Unless you are seen as unfit then joint custody is most likely.  Don't give up.  You can still present your case why you see a need for you to have Decision Making or Tie Breaker, such as that (1) she has been and will continue obstructing your parenting with impact to the child and (2) she will sabotage or fail to agree on things for child's benefit.

Parenting schedule - Mothers often get majority parenting time, especially of small children.  You need to document to the court's satisfaction why the child would do better with you having more time.  You may not get it at first but if you document more incidents such as order violations, obstruction of your parenting, etc then you may get the court to gradually adjust/improve the order.

Don't forget holiday time, usually alternated between parents, with differences if the parents are in different areas.  The remote parent usually gets more of the longer school vacations.  Don't forget vacations, usually not much to start but as child is older and able to walk it would be 2 to 3 weeks each year.  My county says 1 week or 2 week vacations with a maximum of 3 weeks total per year.

I am contemplating counter suing for sole custody. I don't understand why this is directed towards my "unfitness". Aren't we talking about her unfitness?

[ugghh]

Stoic,

Sorry if you took the comments that way.  I cannot speak for others only myself. I am not questioning your stability or your fitness, but based on your posts you seemed to be all over.  At one point you say cannot let yourself care for your daughter and you have moved away and in the next breath you talk about going for full custody.  It seems that you are going from one extreme to the other. 

I do not question that you are dealing with exactly the person you describe.  What I was simply trying to point out is that no matter how much documentation you have, the courts take time to sort through this type of situation.

[stoic83]

Stoic,

Sorry if you took the comments that way.  I cannot speak for others only myself. I am not questioning your stability or your fitness, but based on your posts you seemed to be all over.  At one point you say cannot let yourself care for your daughter and you have moved away and in the next breath you talk about going for full custody.  It seems that you are going from one extreme to the other. 

I do not question that you are dealing with exactly the person you describe.  What I was simply trying to point out is that no matter how much documentation you have, the courts take time to sort through this type of situation.

The woman drove me out of the state. I couldn't take it anymore. She kept showing up at my house, email, text, phone nonstop. I was in counseling and my counselor recommended leaving the area. I mean you have no idea of the extreme nature of the behavior. There are 60-70 pages of documented harassment that took place over a short period coming from multiple sources.

i feel so much better knowing that she can't just show up at my house. I think it would have been dangerous to stay there. This woman is obssessed with me. She's delusional. She consumed my life. I don't know how else to put it. But I understand that I need to appear cool calm and collected, and perhaps if I had already experienced having children I would be acting differently.

But yeah, I feel pretty hopeless, because I'm certainly not 100% after so much emotional/psychological abuse. Sad thing is anyone could go in to court and say that. It doesn't mean it's been any less painful for me.

This is a no-win situation any way I slice it, so to me it makes sense that I've been indecisive.

Ie

[ForeverDad]

That's two answers probably.  Courts often wrap it into one package, one order, but usually it is two parts.

Legal custody - sole, joint/shared - it affect the major decisions about child's life.  Courts are often reluctant to grant sole custody unless substantive abuse, neglect or endangerment becomes a factor.  Unless you are seen as unfit then joint custody is most likely.  Don't give up.  You can still present your case why you see a need for you to have Decision Making or Tie Breaker, such as that (1) she has been and will continue obstructing your parenting with impact to the child and (2) she will sabotage or fail to agree on things for child's benefit.

Parenting schedule - Mothers often get majority parenting time, especially of small children.  You need to document to the court's satisfaction why the child would do better with you having more time.  You may not get it at first but if you document more incidents such as order violations, obstruction of your parenting, etc then you may get the court to gradually adjust/improve the order.

Don't forget holiday time, usually alternated between parents, with differences if the parents are in different areas.  The remote parent usually gets more of the longer school vacations.  Don't forget vacations, usually not much to start but as child is older and able to walk it would be 2 to 3 weeks each year.  My county says 1 week or 2 week vacations with a maximum of 3 weeks total per year.

I am contemplating counter suing for sole custody. I don't understand why this is directed towards my "unfitness". Aren't we talking about her unfitness?

She's the one who has made allegations, or at least started them.  I recall in my case my ex made allegations in family court (days after she was charged with Threat of DV in another court).  Court had her case number on the forms.  Court asked CPS rep who attended about me and he replied, "No concerns".  Court never once asked CPS about her.  Despite her pending case, magistrate asked our work schedules - she replied she worked from home, the home then in my possession per my TPO - and gave her temp custody and gave me alternate weekends.  Essentially the question "Why shouldn't mother be in charge?" was never asked, well, not for another year.

I was in and out of court for years and finally the GAL recommended I become Legal Guardian.  Over 5 years after separation and 3 years after the final decree.  (It's probably harder for Fathers like me, there does still seem to be persisting unwritten and unstated preference for Mothers.* )  In my case the temp order started with me at 22% parenting time when there were "no concerns" about me.  It was about 8 years later when ex finally got 25% minority time after court finally agreed mother was 'disparaging' father, etc.  So with all her recognized issues she still has more time now than I had at the start when nothing was seen wrong with me.

*Note that some mothers here will state they've had it hard too, so surely it's also a case of the court dancing around the big issue - "walking on eggshells" - the vocal misbehaving parent.

I'm not saying you're unfit, I'm saying she is claiming that with her allegations and many courts, at least initially, have a tendency to default to mothers until well documented otherwise.  Meanwhile you should present yourself as a relatively normal father, yes, impacted and distressed by all that has occurred, but still relatively normal.

I recall one notable time, not the only one, when my lawyer even warned me about looking crazy... .

This happened to me while I was about halfway through my 3 months of blocked father-son contact:  There was a tornado warning for our city (not the more common tornado watch) since tornadic activity had been seen.  I tried calling my son, but my then-separated spouse (using a cell phone I was paying for) wouldn't answer, as usual.  When very distraught me contacted my lawyer about it, that I wanted to ensure my son was safe, he said, "Do you want the court to think you're crazy?  The court will look at statistics and say statistically your son is more at risk riding in an automobile than from a tornado.  Sorry, we filed the divorce papers last month, we have to wait for our court hearing next month."

One time there was a tornado warning in the area.  I didn't know where she was living and didn't know if my son was at risk.  She refused to answer my call as usual.  I called my lawyer, very distressed about his safety and he shot me down quick.  He said that the court would see me as unbalanced if I were concerned for him, he said the court would tell me that statistically autos are more dangerous than tornadoes.  As hard as it was, I had to let it go.  It turned out that he was right, the court allows a huge amount of misbehaviors, acting only if there is substantive abuse or substantive neglect in parenting.  Of course, we have to walk on eggshells and even then we still have sleepless nights worrying about what lies will be made next.

And like many others here, I too saw a counselor during my dark times.

[ugghh]

Stoic,

Glad  you replied and hope you keep coming here.  We are here to support you.  As bad as you say your situation is, I promise you there are several members who have been down the same path, ForeverDad, Matt and David off the top of my head have had some pretty rough experiences that they got turned around.  They are a tremendous resource and in some ways your secret weapon - it's like having a crystal ball and knowing what is going to happen next.

Your counselor told you to move away to protect yourself.  I really recommend you start disengaging from the pwBPD on social media too.  pwBPD are quite persistent and will continue to look for ways to maintain control, as you have already discovered. 

[DreamGirl]

Stoic, I know it feels like no one understands. A lot of people don't. A lot of us really do though. Custody cases drive most of us a little nutty. I can be a pretty grounded person - but man, Xanax was the only way I was able to calm down during my own custody dispute.

I just think it's good to be mindful of the fact that making important decisions should be done on solid ground. When we're not on solid ground (when we feel it's torture... .or hopeless... .or we're freaked out), we tend to sometimes make poor emotionally charged decisions. Counter suing for sole custody might be a long shot... .and an extremely expensive endeavor.

What is your lawyer suggesting?

I would think that at the very, very least your lawyer could get a judge to order some kind of parenting time (supervised if need be) in the very right now. That would be the first step I'd take. You need to be able to bond with your baby daughter.

The reality check in this is that with her being the primary caretaker and your court date 3-4 months away, not much is going to change unless like you say, she's arrested or something. So, I wouldn't bank on anything right now (sole custody) and I wouldn't accept anything less then some kind of visitation order.

As far as the obsessive behavior -- there are ways to protect yourself. Get a house phone and change your cell phone number. She can contact you by email or by your home phone.

You're looking at this great big picture (her, your daughter, the husband, the threats, the smear campaign) and it's really, really, really overwhelming.  

 

It helps to take a small bite of this big BPD pie situation, and just chew. Then take the next bite. And the next. And slowly you'll get through this.

I promise.    

[stoic83]

Update : Went to forensic psychologist. He stated that she was exhibiting sociopathic behavior. That I have very little control of the situation and to try to take the emotion out of the decision and to make a cost-benefit analysis in terms of a good situation for her as well as my financial costs. He said that suing for sole custody might be very expensive and I could very well end up with nothing. The attorney recommends at least having a custody eval /psych eval done, which will cost 5-6k, and the courts will have us split the costs. Attorney says that unless she bombs the eval, to just ask for joint custody / visitation.

Also, perhaps in 3-4 months she will grow scared of being exposed... .She has behaved incredibly badly, and it would be hard to imagine her not being at least a little afraid of losing custody. If there were someone to have a case in my shoes, I know that I have it. I just don't have any arrests, so I will probably lose.

I agree that I should have visitation. I just don't want to let her know I'm interested in visitation. I'm not communicating with her, but I did send $.

Has anyone had their ex wBPD go through a psych eval? What was the conclusion?

[stoic83]

Stoic, I know it feels like no one understands. A lot of people don't. A lot of us really do though. Custody cases drive most of us a little nutty. I can be a pretty grounded person - but man, Xanax was the only way I was able to calm down during my own custody dispute.

I just think it's good to be mindful of the fact that making important decisions should be done on solid ground. When we're not on solid ground (when we feel it's torture... .or hopeless... .or we're freaked out), we tend to sometimes make poor emotionally charged decisions. Counter suing for sole custody might be a long shot... .and an extremely expensive endeavor.

What is your lawyer suggesting?

I would think that at the very, very least your lawyer could get a judge to order some kind of parenting time (supervised if need be) in the very right now. That would be the first step I'd take. You need to be able to bond with your baby daughter.


The reality check in this is that with her being the primary caretaker and your court date 3-4 months away, not much is going to change unless like you say, she's arrested or something. So, I wouldn't bank on anything right now (sole custody) and I wouldn't accept anything less then some kind of visitation order.

As far as the obsessive behavior -- there are ways to protect yourself. Get a house phone and change your cell phone number. She can contact you by email or by your home phone.

You're looking at this great big picture (her, your daughter, the husband, the threats, the smear campaign) and it's really, really, really overwhelming.  

 

It helps to take a small bite of this big BPD pie situation, and just chew. Then take the next bite. And the next. And slowly you'll get through this.

I promise.    

Thanks everyone for the support. I haven't felt that it's been safe to show a desire to have a relationship with the child. Something else for her to hurt me with. It's hard for me to feel anything like an actual father in this situation. I don't. I would like to have a relationship with her, but I don't consider her mine... .I'm hers. Her father. I don't feel like I have a daughter at all. I can't protect her, provide for her, do anything that a natural father would do. She's being/will be exposed to terrible characters and theres not a damn thing I can do about it. Because parental fitness only seems to apply to sexual or physical abuse... .character or poor morals don't seem to matter. What a terrible fate that has befallen myself and other men in my shoes. I was so ignorant to the devestation this could have caused... .and there are no repeats... .no do-overs. It's hard to accept.

[ugghh]

"When eating an elephant take one bite at a time." Creighton Abrams

Stoic, your professionals are giving you solid advice.  While the craziness is apparent to those of us who have to been around the pwBPD, it takes courts some time to get there.  Focus on winning the war.

[livednlearned]

Depositions are a way to establish patterns of lying.

Depositions are also a way for two lawyers to size up the credibility of their own clients. Both my ex and I were deposed, and despite my ex being a former trial attorney who had conducted hundreds of depositions, he could not keep track of his own allegations. Often, lawyers use depositions to capture sworn testimony, and then they cross-examine the witness in court to take apart false allegations or show how the witness is not credible. This is not hard to do with someone who has BPD or any kind of PD. If you do take your case to trial, it's important to understand how you respond under stress because if you are prickly or hot-headed or emotionally reactive, this works at cross-purposes. If your L sees that you cannot handle a deposition, he or she may do whatever possible to settle in order to keep the case out of court.

Psych evals can also be effective, although typically, if there is a diagnosis, you also need to hire an expert to explain to the court how that particular diagnosis can harm the child.

[momtara]

Stoic, I understand your feeling of being afraid to care about her because you might lose her. I think all your comments come across as rational. People going through a painful divorce (both sides) are often advised to get a professional because it will help them be mentally healthier through this tough ordeal. That doesn't mean we think you're 'the crazy one,' don't worry. But I totally understand the place you are in now and you don't know what might happen.

If you think your wife would endanger her, you could file for full custody. If she's just being a jerk and cruel and harassing, you probably won't get full custody, but you certainly should be able to have some unsupervised visitation particularly if you can get professionals to stand up for you (like your therapist could write a letter) and if you have a good attorney. Usually things can be worked out before they go to court.

You can speed things up with a pendente lite motion, but your atty will tell you if it's worth it. That's a speedy motion to decide custody etc in a hurry.

Although you may feel you are losing precious time, know that your daughter can still bond with you later in infancy. They're likely going to bond with their moms most at that age anyway; dads are often working. (Sorry if that seems sexist but just often the case).

Precedents you set now are important, so yes, feel free to try for more parenting time or all of it, at least as a negotiating tactic - if your attorney thinks it's best. Dads do get full custody, but usually there has to be severe mental illness, a criminal record, history of harm, etc. on the other side. Certainly any proof that she has maligned you and is unstable etc may help, but I don't know if she'd lose the baby over that. Of course, your lawyer may know best.

You mentioned a forensic psych in your headline. Usually if one party has to be evaluated, the other one does too. It can really help you if they look at her, and this may be your only chance to have it done, so it's worth a thought. If you have a custody evaluator, it will cost money, but that person has more time than a judge to look at all your paperwork and listen to your thoughts.

[stoic83]

Stoic, I understand your feeling of being afraid to care about her because you might lose her. I think all your comments come across as rational. People going through a painful divorce (both sides) are often advised to get a professional because it will help them be mentally healthier through this tough ordeal. That doesn't mean we think you're 'the crazy one,' don't worry. But I totally understand the place you are in now and you don't know what might happen.

If you think your wife would endanger her, you could file for full custody. If she's just being a jerk and cruel and harassing, you probably won't get full custody, but you certainly should be able to have some unsupervised visitation particularly if you can get professionals to stand up for you (like your therapist could write a letter) and if you have a good attorney. Usually things can be worked out before they go to court.

You can speed things up with a pendente lite motion, but your atty will tell you if it's worth it. That's a speedy motion to decide custody etc in a hurry.

Although you may feel you are losing precious time, know that your daughter can still bond with you later in infancy. They're likely going to bond with their moms most at that age anyway; dads are often working. (Sorry if that seems sexist but just often the case).

Precedents you set now are important, so yes, feel free to try for more parenting time or all of it, at least as a negotiating tactic - if your attorney thinks it's best. Dads do get full custody, but usually there has to be severe mental illness, a criminal record, history of harm, etc. on the other side. Certainly any proof that she has maligned you and is unstable etc may help, but I don't know if she'd lose the baby over that. Of course, your lawyer may know best.

You mentioned a forensic psych in your headline. Usually if one party has to be evaluated, the other one does too. It can really help you if they look at her, and this may be your only chance to have it done, so it's worth a thought. If you have a custody evaluator, it will cost money, but that person has more time than a judge to look at all your paperwork and listen to your thoughts.

Thanks Momtara. I am pursuing counseling with a forensic psychologist who is an expert witness in family law cases. It's helpful, because he's really knowledgable and he echos what I have heard on here.

Update : She contacted my attorney and wants to meet with him to discuss. The attorney im working with was caught a little off guard, because she doesn't have an attorney. Im kind of worried that she's going to offer him a deal that he will recommend me to take... .I feel like I might be doing my biological daughter a disservice if I don't have the custody evaluation done.

I've read some things written online from adult children that wish their dads would have fought for full custody... .I wonder if they realize how impossible it is for us. I mean, the chances of me getting custody are automatically so low, how could I allow myself to actually desire something?

It'd be like me saying I want to become a professional baseball player. Almost impossible. Yet, I'm expected to act like I really, really, really want to be a professional baseball player? Get my hopes up, only to be disappointed when the inevitable occurs? Even if I am 100 times better baseball player than she is (BPD ex). She's batting .200, already went through spring training, and I'm batting .000 with 0 at bats. Nobody will ever know what a good baseball player I could be, and my daughter will never have an emotionally healthy upbringing because the only reason I'm riding the pine is because Im a man.

In any case, if I end up giving up... .doing the cost/benefit analysis and realizing it's not worth 50k to acheive the same legal result... .I guess I can just be like a coach/safe haven for her... .and I guess that's never been what I've thought being a dad/parent was... .but I have little control over anything else.

She's probably already had her nazi/psychopcath ex boyfriend moved in. He was putting my baby's photos on his facebook page next to confederate flags and concentration camps... .as if to taunt me... ."I've got your baby".

It's really disgusting and sad.

I'm trying to focus on other things because it's so upsetting. Looking in to going fishing this weekend, but it's pretty hot!

Thanks for your support:)




Thanks for understanding Momtara.

[ForeverDad]

I feel like I might be doing my biological daughter a disservice if I don't have the custody evaluation done.

I think any offer she makes would be too biased in her favor.  Get the custody evaluation and then see how much that ramps back her entitlement and how much that makes you seen as a reasonable if not better parent.

In my case, my then-spouse had a favorable temp order and delayed the case as long as she could, nearly two years.  When I first filed she demanded I get supervised parenting only.  (No court action, a prior order had lapsed so it was ordered again for alternate weekends.)  In mediation she offered to settle for me to get what I already had, the then-current alternate weekend schedule.  I declined.  Court's parenting investigator, their social worker, recommended I move up from alternate weekends to equal time.  (No court action.)  Then the custody evaluation was even more strongly in my favor.  (No court action.)  Finally, when I arrived at court on Trial Day I was informed she was finally ready to settle.  The excellent custody evaluation made me look very favorable for the trial.  So she felt she had no choice but to settle, I walked out with the framework for a final decree of Shared Parenting, equal time and I agreed only if I was also Residential Parent for School Purposes.  (No court action until a final decree was issued two months later.)

I've read some things written online from adult children that wish their dads would have fought for full custody... .I wonder if they realize how impossible it is for us. I mean, the chances of me getting custody are automatically so low, how could I allow myself to actually desire something?

Even if custody are somewhat low, getting a decent outcome is not unreasonable to set as your goal, there's some here who got custody but vastly more who got at least a reasonable schedule.  Standing up for yourself as a reasonably normal parent who wants to be involved with parenting, with a strategy, with documentation, with a custody evaluation, should be enough to get you at least a 'standard' father schedule, perhaps more.

Yes, you see a huge mountain before you.  And yes the hurdles are high, but they're not insurmountable, not impossible.  So take it step by step and before long you'll be amazed how much progress you'll have made.  The first step is to get a workable temporary court order.  That is your first real opportunity to get you case truly heard, the mother is certainly not listening at all.  While the child is very young now and mother may get more default preference for that reason, the court's authority will trump her every changing dictates, demands and moods.

Whether you seek more parenting or you step back, either way ex will likely claim to the child that you didn't care about the child, didn't love the child and walked away.  The last thing she would do would be to tell the child, "I drove him away."  But... .If you do make reasonable efforts to parent, seeking that in the court will provide concrete documentation - whether successful then or not - to give an answer years from now when your child asks, ":)ad, did you fight for me?"  Then you could reply, "Yes, I did my reasonable best."  You don't have to be Superman, you then-grown child won't expect perfection or superhuman accomplishments, just that you did care, love and try.

I also quote this in many threads here:  Living in a calm and stable home, even if only for part of their lives, will give the children a better example of normalcy for their own future relationships.  Nearly 30 years ago the book Solomon's Children - Exploding the Myths of Divorce had an interesting observation on page 195 by one participant, As the saying goes, "I'd rather come from a broken home than live in one."  Ponder that.  Taking action will enable your lives, or at least a part of your lives, to be spent be in a calm, stable environment - your home, wherever that is - away from the blaming, emotional distortions, pressuring demands and manipulations, unpredictable ever-looming rages and outright chaos.

As they say, if the eggs are cracked, make an omelet.  You didn't cause the dysfunction, but you can find practical ways to deal with it all - from a safe (or a less unsafe) distance with a solid court order under your belt.

While we can encourage you to step forward and we offer our experiences, our suggestions and strategies, we do leave it to you to make the actual decisions what you will do and how you will do it.

[momtara]

Yes, have the custody evaluation done. In your situation I don't think you have much to lose and it may at the very least force her to always get counseling because there will be recommendations.

Yes, it is hard for a dad to get full custody, but not impossible. The hard thing for you is that you're kind of seeing it as all or nothing, and I can see why - exchanges with this woman are going to be hard. But who knows, you may get more than 50 percent, you may be able to work enough things into your plan that protect your daughter and keep her mom away from you. Maybe pickups and dropoffs will be in a neutral place. Maybe all communication has to go through OurFamilyWizard. There are ways to set boundaries. If you are really worried about your daughter's safety at some point, you can ask for an emergency order, but you have to back it up. An evaluation will help you though as long as it's not an evaluator biased toward her for some reason (like she hires her personally and pays all of her fee or something like that). You are already doing a lot just by caring and by fighting.

[ImaFita]

Stoic,

Sorry if you took the comments that way.  I cannot speak for others only myself. I am not questioning your stability or your fitness, but based on your posts you seemed to be all over.  At one point you say cannot let yourself care for your daughter and you have moved away and in the next breath you talk about going for full custody.  It seems that you are going from one extreme to the other. 

I do not question that you are dealing with exactly the person you describe.  What I was simply trying to point out is that no matter how much documentation you have, the courts take time to sort through this type of situation.

The woman drove me out of the state. I couldn't take it anymore. She kept showing up at my house, email, text, phone nonstop. I was in counseling and my counselor recommended leaving the area. I mean you have no idea of the extreme nature of the behavior. There are 60-70 pages of documented harassment that took place over a short period coming from multiple sources.

i feel so much better knowing that she can't just show up at my house. I think it would have been dangerous to stay there. This woman is obssessed with me. She's delusional. She consumed my life. I don't know how else to put it. But I understand that I need to appear cool calm and collected, and perhaps if I had already experienced having children I would be acting differently.

But yeah, I feel pretty hopeless, because I'm certainly not 100% after so much emotional/psychological abuse. Sad thing is anyone could go in to court and say that. It doesn't mean it's been any less painful for me.

This is a no-win situation any way I slice it, so to me it makes sense that I've been indecisive.

Ie

I understand where you are coming from. I've been trapped into fatherhood, bent over at every turn, watched a person claim victim status - whilst they throw accusations at me, just to delay the process. Having no say in your own reproduction rights, then to have them held ransom, whilst everyone makes you feel as though it's your fault, then blackmailed, emotionally/psychologically abused. Then every process you go through wants you to bend over for them - at the behest of the perpetrator herself. I understand exactly where you come from, why you have been indecisive, I've been there, it is a living hell. In my instance, I walked away, I felt as though the process that I was going through was just rehashing the abuse. They alienate you from your kid, then turn it around and claim neglect. If you fight, listen to Forever Dad, he gave me brilliant advice when I was considering fighting. My forensic psych at the time also gave me some good advice - which was to worry less about holding her accountable, as it will just eat you up, and instead worry about getting myself right, to ignore her attempts of manipulation, don't even respond.

[stoic83]

Attorney gave me 3 options.

1) Go through custody evaluation.

2) Try to get her to agree to a normal father parenting plan.

3) Pay child support and tell her to never talk to me again.

I don't know what to do here. The attorney said I'd feel better about #2.

He didn't think #1 would work out well. He said that women like her are always awarded custody.

He said they wouldn't want to hear how she got pregnant or how she's treated me.

Feeling defeated

[momtara]

Well,custody evaluations and custody decisions are made about what's best for the kids, and none of the people deciding that are going to give a flying fig how she hurt you. If she is unstable and you can show that it may hurt your daughter, they will care about that, but not how she treated you. You can tell your therapist about it, or friends, or us, but whether you were tricked into fatherhood or not is not going to matter - the child has a right to a happy life. You DO have the right to say she needs to be with a sane parent and protected from her mother's instability, if you think that's the case.

Not sure why your lawyer is against a custody evaluation. Yes, she may be awarded custody. But the evaluator might have some helpful recommendations - maybe she has to go into (stay in?) therapy, maybe you get good parenting time and your ex has to meet you at a public place. You will get to talk to the evaluator and tell her of your wife's problems. This is the only time in your life you will get to have someone see her issues when deciding custody. it's going to be harder 3 years down the road unless your wife has a total meltdown. That said, I am not a lawyer so consider that.

Even if your wife agrees to a plan you're happy with - and maybe your lawyer is just trying to save you money and time - it's still going to have to be put in writing and hammered out. Does your lawyer have experience with BPD? Are you in California? You might try a phone consultation with Bill Eddy.

I'm curious what other dads will think here. Some have gone thru a custody eval. Of course, every evaluator is different and states are different too. Are you willing to share your child with your ex, or do you want sole custody or nothing? Maybe what your lawyer was saying is that a CE may not give you sole custody.

[stoic83]

My lawyer said she's playing games and will just drive up the attorney fees.

He said "at first I thought you might be a bit selfish, but I can see how just cutting contact and paying child support may be the best option."

He said she plays games, she's agressive, and she's not going to stop behaving like this. He says that even with minimal visitation she may be giving me a hard time. He said she's been contacting him non-stop and trying to drive up his hours.


I live out of state now. In seattle, she lives in portalnd. My counselor advised me to leave because the woman kept showing up at my house. The police were involved.

I don't know what to do. My CS will be 1500-2000 a month.

This woman wasn't my wife. She's a woman I knew for 2 months that took advantage of me. She was married to someone else.

Stoic

[momtara]

Yeah, I remember that story (and did you get a paternity test yet?)

You're dealing with a difficult situation. I think you have to talk to your counselor, others, and do a lot of soul searching to figure out if you want some visitation or custody. It is indeed hard to get sole custody, so you're really going to have to figure out what you want. Walking away could be justified, but I know you care about her and are worried that years down the road, she may ask if you could have fought for her, and you may ask yourself that. So I think you have to find a decision you're comfortable with. If you want to be in her life, you will just have to - step by step - set a lot of boundaries and enforce them. If she comes to your place, harasses you, etc., you are going to have to do something about it until it stops. Many of us have had to deal with it and it eases up in time, but sure, it's a lot to go through and makes it hard to parent at first.

I think another thing you have to figure out is if the child's mother is being treated for psych issues and if you can somehow bring that out in court. Maybe there are prior records of her doing things like this and with enough asking you could find them out. What about her other kids and their parents? Do they have custody or does she?

[stoic83]

She doesn't have any other children. She's preparing for a custody evaluation. I don't know... .my lawyer doesn't think it's a great idea.

He seems like a good lawyer and I know he has won other custody cases.

He probably can just tell I don't really want any part of this. I mean this woman raped me, and I know it's not the child's fault... but maybe it would be healthier for me and for everyone else if I just paid and stayed away.  I really don't feel comfortable with having a relationship with my daughter while under her care. The system isn't set up for male victims of abuse. It makes it worse. She will definitely use the child as a weapon. She already has. I know that relationships are full of joy and pain, but this one looks like it might be too painful under current circumstances.

I also moved 3.5 hours away. Clearly my need for self preservation superceded my need to stay and see the baby, while potentially getting manipulated, harassed, boundary busted with no recourse.

So things are looking bad. I am really feeling down in the dumps  My lawyer does not want to go to court. It's apparent.

Stoic

Yeah, I remember that story (and did you get a paternity test yet?)

You're dealing with a difficult situation. I think you have to talk to your counselor, others, and do a lot of soul searching to figure out if you want some visitation or custody. It is indeed hard to get sole custody, so you're really going to have to figure out what you want. Walking away could be justified, but I know you care about her and are worried that years down the road, she may ask if you could have fought for her, and you may ask yourself that. So I think you have to find a decision you're comfortable with. If you want to be in her life, you will just have to - step by step - set a lot of boundaries and enforce them. If she comes to your place, harasses you, etc., you are going to have to do something about it until it stops. Many of us have had to deal with it and it eases up in time, but sure, it's a lot to go through and makes it hard to parent at first.

I think another thing you have to figure out is if the child's mother is being treated for psych issues and if you can somehow bring that out in court. Maybe there are prior records of her doing things like this and with enough asking you could find them out. What about her other kids and their parents? Do they have custody or does she?

[momtara]

That's rough. If you are leaning toward staying out of it, then maybe that's the answer. Perhaps, though, there's a way to leave the door open for when the child is older. Your lawyer may know. I'd hate for you to have to go through a drawn-out battle to see her if you want to see her when she's a few years older. You don't have to give up parental rights.

In some ways, maybe it's easier for the baby if you stay away and don't expose her to two fighting parents. There's a ton of things to weigh. I wish you luck. It's not easy.

[stoic83]

That's rough. If you are leaning toward staying out of it, then maybe that's the answer. Perhaps, though, there's a way to leave the door open for when the child is older. Your lawyer may know. I'd hate for you to have to go through a drawn-out battle to see her if you want to see her when she's a few years older. You don't have to give up parental rights.

In some ways, maybe it's easier for the baby if you stay away and don't expose her to two fighting parents. There's a ton of things to weigh. I wish you luck. It's not easy.

I've decided to just stay away and pay child support. I begged and pleaded with her on the phone to give me custody as a last resort. Not my proudest moment. Needless to say she just used my vulnerability to hurt me even more. Yelling at me while I'm crying. Not the first time that happened. Same reaction when I told her I felt she raped me. Screaming at me about something unrelated while I'm a 32 year old man crying my eyes out. Just sick. My lawyer is just going to deal with her from here on out. I give up. She just seems content in being on this power trip. Either A be with her and raise the child or B humiliation/alienation. There's really no other option for me at this point. What a messed up system for men and children. I'm looking forward to moving on and having a relationship with her when she's older. At least I don't have to have any contact with the mother. She's a complete psycho.

I guess I'm glad that I've never even held her. What a sad stain on my life this woman has left.