My mother is sadistic

[EaglesJuju]

I have been working through a lot of my core issues at therapy lately. Mainly I have been discussing my mother and her behavior towards me in the past.  After talking about some of the hurt and pain that she inflicted on me throughout my life, my psychologist and I realized that she is truly sadistic.  She gets pleasure out of inflicting pain on me. I remember one time she actually smiled while beating me.  I never realized this before.  I have been somewhat accepting of her mental illnesses, but realizing that she enjoys hurting me makes me almost hate her.  I feel somewhat bad for having this much animosity towards her. What are your experiences with sadism and how did you work through the animosity?

[Sunfl0wer]

Hi EaglesJuju,

It sounds like you are working through some pretty tough stuff.  Realizing your mom enjoys causing you pain... .has got to be unleashing a new type of pain for you to cope with.

While I do not recall my mom taking pleasure in inflicting pain, I know it was a kind of emotional release for her.

My sister on the other hand would like to inflict pain on me, not for joy, but to project the pain she was wanting to cope with.

I currently do not have animosity for either of them.  I am not sure where or why or how I processed this.  I think I recall working really hard to have compassion for both of them.  I remember thinking of what my mom's childhood must have been like.  I spent a lot of time trying to tap into compassion for them both... .many years.  However, all of this was clearer for me after I had some distance from them both and they had no control over me any longer. 

Not sure if that helps

~Sunflower

[Turkish]

Hi EJJ,

Are you saying that your mother has ASPD traits?

My experience is like Sunfl0wer's. Out of control rage, but not what I perceived to be sadism, in retrospect (that was her father to her and her siblings, the only person I've ever heard my mom describe as "evil".

Now that you're an adult, what is it like now? Do you experience sadistic verbal and emotional abuse?

[Harri]

Hi EaglesJuju.  There were times when I would see my mother smile when she was at her worst.  I could see it in her eyes too.  A glee and satisfaction that she was hurting someone, especially me or my father.  

Regarding the animosity, I think it is natural and even healthy to be angry/resentful that she hurt you and enjoyed the hurting, especially because this is a recent understanding.  I am still angry at my mothers behavior though the anger I feel now compared to before I started working through my issues with her is different.  My anger/animosity, when I feel it, is directed more at her behavior(s) now rather than at her, if that makes any sense.  I think the only way to work through it is to accept it and sit with it.  Know it is okay to feel that way and not judge yourself or the feeling.  I'm no expert and I certainly have not worked through all of the anger/animosity I feel though.  I agree with Sunflower that thinking of her as a child and how her life must have been helps put her and her behavior in a context where compassion can eventually be reached.  It is a process though.

 

[Sunfl0wer]

Well, I actually remember something.  Mom had times she smiled and hit someone.  I guess I compartmentalized and didn't count this.  Abuse was a norm, sometimes when she was not in a rage, and just aggravated, she could smack my sister as though it was a joke... .like the way a normal person may nudge someone to say, "Eh, what are you doing you silly."  She had the same mannerism... .but could have a shoe in her hand, backhand my sister with it in a "normal" conversation and be laughing at the same time.

I don't know if what I explained is clear.

Wait... .I JUST remembered something else.  My sister beat a neighbor kid a bit, he tried to molest someone, she tied him up and laughed as she beat him.  (He was much bigger than her, probably 18)

So I guess if I try to remember, yes, there were times they laughed and hurt someone.

If someone was drunk... .they could be rough and hit someone in conversation and think the person was a wimp for winching.

[Kwamina]

Hi EaglesJuju

This is tough stuff to deal with, I am glad you have a T to help work through these difficult issues.

After talking about some of the hurt and pain that she inflicted on me throughout my life, my psychologist and I realized that she is truly sadistic. She gets pleasure out of inflicting pain on me. I remember one time she actually smiled while beating me.  I never realized this before.

Your mother smiling while beating you is quite disturbing  I can imagine how unsettling (and infuriating) this must be for you looking back upon it. Are there also other instances or behaviors in which you are now able to identify a sadistic component?

One of the main reasons I always had a dislike for my older uBPD sister, is that I always saw that she too really enjoyed hurting people. Her natural or base state is that of the 'Queen', she's condescending, very bossy and has a huge sense of entitlement. She always picked out people she perceived as weaker so she could get away with everything. Towards people she perceived as stronger, she had a very subservient attitude (though always complaining about them behind there backs).

My uBPD mother's base state is Waif/Hermit, just like my sister she to took her frustrations out on me, but that sadistic element of enjoying the infliction of pain is something that sets them apart. In a stress-free environment my Waif/Hermit mother can actually be very sweet, though she could still turn any moment. I have never seen my sister as a sweet person though. The sadistic nature of my sister has nothing to do with being dysregulated, it's something that's always there whether she's dysregulated or not.

I have been somewhat accepting of her mental illnesses, but realizing that she enjoys hurting me makes me almost hate her.  I feel somewhat bad for having this much animosity towards her. What are your experiences with sadism and how did you work through the animosity?

I can totally understand and relate to your intense feelings. I think these feelings are normal. The way your mother treated you was very hurtful and wrong, and this sadistic element only makes it hurt more. Realizing that my mom and sis are uBPD and the limitations they have as a result of this disorder, does help me with some of my anger. The sadistic element is tough though, when dealing with sadistic people there is one word that comes to my mind: BOUNDARIES! BOUNDARIES! BOUNDARIES! I now apply a policy of zero-tolerance when it comes to my sister's sadistic behavior.

[EaglesJuju]

Are you saying that your mother has ASPD traits?

She is diagnosed with schizoaffective disorder/bipolar. In the DSM, there is a criteria that excludes diagnosing as ASPD, when schizophrenia is present. Although she does fit the criteria for lack of remorse, deceitfulness/manipulative, and irritability/aggressiveness. She also fits the criteria for NPD/BPD.

Now that you're an adult, what is it like now? Do you experience sadistic verbal and emotional abuse?

She still is sadistic. A couple of months ago, she told me that I should just kill myself, because I am pathetic and desperate. When she said that, it was not out of anger, but spoken in a calm tone and manner. 

I truly believe (my psychologist does too) that I am nothing but an object to her.   

[EaglesJuju]

Are there also other instances or behaviors in which you are now able to identify a sadistic component?

I mentioned it before in another thread, but my mother used to tell me that birds were going to claw my eyes out and kill me if I did not behave. To reinforce this behavior, she would put life-like bird replicas all around the house and on my headboard and forced me to watch the movie The Birds. She would tell me that they (the birds) are watching me. I have a fear of birds because of that .

When I was 19, I lived with her briefly. She would come into my room in the middle of the night and start threatening me. One time she told me that she would shave my head in the middle of the night, because I was evil and a rotten daughter. Other times she would threaten to throw all my things away or wake me up to clean because I was worthless and dirty and needed to rid the house of my filth.

Another time when I moved out of her house, she asked me to come over and bring her something. I went over to her house. She immediately started attacking me. I was knocked to the floor and she got on top and held me down. While she was holding me down, she started slamming my head on the floor. I got up somehow and got her off of me, she decided to call the police and stated that I attacked her. The police finally came and put me in handcuffs while listening to her screaming and raging about "what I did." I was put in the back of the police car and I looked at her window. She was watching everything with a pleased look on her face. 

I can totally understand and relate to your intense feelings. I think these feelings are normal. The way your mother treated you was very hurtful and wrong, and this sadistic element only makes it hurt more. Realizing that my mom and sis are uBPD and the limitations they have as a result of this disorder, does help me with some of my anger. The sadistic element is tough though, when dealing with sadistic people there is one word that comes to my mind: BOUNDARIES! BOUNDARIES! BOUNDARIES! I now apply a policy of zero-tolerance when it comes to my sister's sadistic behavior.

I have tried to instill boundaries, it does not work with her. She is far too manipulative and knows how to get what she wants. She knows about my issues and uses them for her own personal gain. Granted I have been working on my issues, but it is a huge set back when my issues are triggered.

Unfortunately, I have been forced in a caretaker role with her.  It is a position where I will have a fair amount of control over her, but she has been nothing but abusive.

[EaglesJuju]

Regarding the animosity, I think it is natural and even healthy to be angry/resentful that she hurt you and enjoyed the hurting, especially because this is a recent understanding.  I am still angry at my mothers behavior though the anger I feel now compared to before I started working through my issues with her is different.  My anger/animosity, when I feel it, is directed more at her behavior(s) now rather than at her, if that makes any sense.

It does make sense. I can do that with my pwBPD and have a lot of empathy towards his disorder and childhood etc. I cannot relate to my mother as a child, because I do know that her childhood was not filled with abuse or trauma. She had a completely different childhood, than the one she provided for me.

I think the only way to work through it is to accept it and sit with it.  Know it is okay to feel that way and not judge yourself or the feeling.  

I do accept that she is mentally ill, but I cannot accept her behavior towards me. It angers me that I am working through many issues that she reinforced through her abuse. I do feel bad for having these thoughts, because I am very empathetic and understanding towards other people in my life who are disordered. I just cannot be empathetic towards her. 

[Kwamina]

Hi again EaglesJuju

I mentioned it before in another thread, but my mother used to tell me that birds were going to claw my eyes out and kill me if I did not behave. To reinforce this behavior, she would put life-like bird replicas all around the house and on my headboard and forced me to watch the movie The Birds. She would tell me that they (the birds) are watching me.

It's horrible that your mother told you these things :'( I see this as severe psychological abuse, the word torture even comes to mind. Treating a child like this can have huge psychological impact. What did your mother consider 'not behaving'?

I have a fear of birds because of that .

Given whet your mother did I think this is very understandable. I hope that the presence of a sweet board parrot here can alleviate some of this fear

My uBPD mother twice told me that people might be trying to poison me when a friend gave me something to eat. I was shocked and very angry that she would say such a horrible thing and to this day I find that the word poison triggers me. By itself poison already isn't the most pleasant of words and these experiences only made it more unpleasant for me.

When I was 19, I lived with her briefly. She would come into my room in the middle of the night and start threatening me. One time she told me that she would shave my head in the middle of the night, because I was evil and a rotten daughter. Other times she would threaten to throw all my things away or wake me up to clean because I was worthless and dirty and needed to rid the house of my filth.

I am very sorry your mother did these things to you. Through her words and actions she conveyed very negative messages to you. Often children of BPD parents internalize the overly negative and critical voice of their parent, do you feel like this also happened to you? If so, have you find ways to effectively deal with this negative internalized voice?

Another time when I moved out of her house, she asked me to come over and bring her something. I went over to her house. She immediately started attacking me. I was knocked to the floor and she got on top and held me down. While she was holding me down, she started slamming my head on the floor. I got up somehow and got her off of me, she decided to call the police and stated that I attacked her. The police finally came and put me in handcuffs while listening to her screaming and raging about "what I did." I was put in the back of the police car and I looked at her window. She was watching everything with a pleased look on her face.  

Reading these things I can only say that I have to agree with the assessment of your mother as sadistic. In her book Understanding the Borderline Mother, Christine Ann Lawson describes the 'Witch' type:

Witch mothers know what to say to hurt or scare their children, and use humiliation and degradation to punish them. The Witch can be bitter, sarcastic, demanding and cruel to the child who is the target of her rage.

... .

Witches may make statements such as, "I'm going to kill you", "I'm going to make your life a living Hell" or "You are never going to hear the end of this". The sinister, sadistic message is a wish for total destruction of the child."

My own mother sometimes turned into the Witch and that was extremely frightening and upsetting. Knowing this 'thing' was inside of her made me fear that dreaded 'Turn' Christine Ann Lawson talks about in her book. It's very unfortunate to have to conclude, but it seems your mother exhibits many characteristics of the Witch. Most BPD mothers aren't the Witch all the time but there are exceptions. I remember a member who's mother seemed to be in Witch-mode all the time. When you look at your own mother, how would you classify her?

I have tried to instill boundaries, it does not work with her. She is far too manipulative and knows how to get what she wants. She knows about my issues and uses them for her own personal gain. Granted I have been working on my issues, but it is a huge set back when my issues are triggered.

Unfortunately, I have been forced in a caretaker role with her.  It is a position where I will have a fair amount of control over her, but she has been nothing but abusive.

Sometimes the behavior of BPD people is so extreme and triggering that removing yourself from the situation/interaction altogether is the best thing you can do to protect yourself. Especially for the "Witch" type it's so that it isn't possible to negotiate with someone in that state.

This is a very difficult situation you're in now. Are you the only one taking care of your mother? In what ways do you feel 'forced' into this caretaker role?

[CeliaBea]

Hi All, Hi EaglesJuju,

That's really tough. What you experienced is absolutely horrific. My mother (BPD, I think) is sadistic, too. My brother and sister in law, who are frequent targets of her venom as well still think she's just too blunt, that she should think before she speaks etc. They don't realize that her insults are deliberate. She says many hurtful things for that very reason: to hurt. I've seen that same glee and satisfaction on her eyes, too, that you describe. She loves to torment others. Sadly, that seems to be the only love she can experience!

I do accept that she is mentally ill, but I cannot accept her behavior towards me. It angers me that I am working through many issues that she reinforced through her abuse. I do feel bad for having these thoughts, because I am very empathetic and understanding towards other people in my life who are disordered. I just cannot be empathetic towards her. 

Why should you be empathetic toward her? She doesn't deserve your empathy, or goodwill, or understanding, or forgiveness. Anger and outrage are the only appropriate emotional responses to such sadism.

I have struggled with similar questions, though: since my mother is sick, and she's not responsible for her illness and for the fact that she had a terrible childhood, I feel somewhat sorry. Yet although she's not responsible for her illness, she still is responsible for her behaviour. And that's what's so vexing: it seems so calculated, so deliberate! She knows perfectly well when to behave nicely, and does so very convincingly…

One more thought regarding anger: I felt white hot anger when I realized how sadistic my mother is. That was positive for me, because for decades, I'd repressed that anger to protect her. Directing it towards her was liberating. It was a catalyst for change.

Hope this helps!

Celia

[EaglesJuju]

It's horrible that your mother told you these things :'( I see this as severe psychological abuse, the word torture even comes to mind. Treating a child like this can have huge psychological impact. What did your mother consider 'not behaving'?

She would consider 'not behaving' as wanting to be different from her. I was punished for being my real self and having different interests, thoughts, values, beliefs, and opinions. Advancement in my life, no matter what the type, was discouraged and frowned upon. From her perspective (she still has this viewpoint), she is the most important thing in my life, even more so than myself. I was born solely to take care of all of her needs, whether that be a therapist, caretaker, an object to rage/project on, a fixer, helper, a source of blame, and a scapegoat.  I was taught that I was helpless, feeble, and unable to take care of myself. Obviously, that is a far cry from what she expected of me. I learned quickly that asserting your real self has consequences, but when you are dependent and compliant, you do not get punished.

I do suffer from DPD (dependent personality disorder) and PTSD as a result of her upbringing.  

Given whet your mother did I think this is very understandable. I hope that the presence of a sweet board parrot here can alleviate some of this fear

 I have worked on the ornithophobia. I am still afraid of touching them, but I am not so bothered when birds are near me.  

I am very sorry your mother did these things to you. Through her words and actions she conveyed very negative messages to you. Often children of BPD parents internalize the overly negative and critical voice of their parent, do you feel like this also happened to you? If so, have you find ways to effectively deal with this negative internalized voice?

I do not think that happened to me. My grandmother was nurturing, loving, empathetic, supportive, and kind. She looked out for my mother even after she passed away.

Reading these things I can only say that I have to agree with the assessment of your mother as sadistic. In her book Understanding the Borderline Mother, Christine Ann Lawson describes the 'Witch' type:

Witch mothers know what to say to hurt or scare their children, and use humiliation and degradation to punish them. The Witch can be bitter, sarcastic, demanding and cruel to the child who is the target of her rage.

... .

Witches may make statements such as, "I'm going to kill you", "I'm going to make your life a living Hell" or "You are never going to hear the end of this". The sinister, sadistic message is a wish for total destruction of the child."

My own mother sometimes turned into the Witch and that was extremely frightening and upsetting. Knowing this 'thing' was inside of her made me fear that dreaded 'Turn' Christine Ann Lawson talks about in her book. It's very unfortunate to have to conclude, but it seems your mother exhibits many characteristics of the Witch. Most BPD mothers aren't the Witch all the time but there are exceptions. I remember a member who's mother seemed to be in Witch-mode all the time. When you look at your own mother, how would you classify her?

I do not think that she fits into a single typology. She has BPD/NPD/ASPD traits. She speaks of being a martyr/victim quite often, I think that falls into the waif category.

Sometimes the behavior of BPD people is so extreme and triggering that removing yourself from the situation/interaction altogether is the best thing you can do to protect yourself. Especially for the "Witch" type it's so that it isn't possible to negotiate with someone in that state.

This is a very difficult situation you're in now. Are you the only one taking care of your mother? In what ways do you feel 'forced' into this caretaker role?

There is no baseline of behavior that is negotiable unfortunately. Her extremeness is stable across time/situations.  

My mother is taking care of herself. My grandmother passed away recently. She helped and took care of my mother.  My brother (self-admitted pwNPD) keeps her at bay by threating her. For whatever reason, she complies to him.

She recently told me that it is my job to take care of her. My grandmother had provisions in her will to have my uncle be a financial caretaker of the inheritance that she left my mother. My grandmother made the provisions with foresight knowing that my mother is impulsive and spends money frivolously. My uncle (uASPD) could not handle her manipulation, aggression, and ego centric behavior, therefore he relinquished his rights. I was the next in line in the will. I agreed to do it, because I know it was something that my grandmother would want.  

[HappyChappy]

I just cannot be empathetic towards her.  

Maybe the fact you can't empathise, is because you're human. Sadism isn't humane. I wouldn't feel guilty over your animosity, sounds like you have every right to be aggrieved. I would agree with Harri, that animosity can be healthy, keeping us on our guard with sadists for example.

My NPD bro was very sadistic. So like your mom with the birds, he was forever tying to find my room 101. Forever trying to scare me, to the point of obsession. As a child he delighted in tormenting insects and animals. Not in a curious way, but in a never got board of killing them way. I remember other young boys telling him it just isn't funny any more.

The problem with all this is he would do malicious things to me and my sister for kicks.  He kicked me out of a moving car and hit me with metal bar and bat; threw me down the stairs and dropped me out of a window. He killed his pet as well as my pet and being the GC he literally got away with murder. He loved it. The only times I remember him smiling was when he'd upset you, or manage to kick things off.

His nick name was Psycho. But he isn't because the day I kicked his ass was the last time he touched me, even though he's way bigger than me, he's a coward and a Sadist. I have not guilt in hateing him, because it keeps me away from him and that's the only way to prevent his attacks. So EaglesJuju  don't feel guilt. I'm guessing an old BPD like your mom can't do much damage. Maybe you could encourage her to become a cage fighter, sadits like that sort of thing.

[EaglesJuju]

That's really tough. What you experienced is absolutely horrific. My mother (BPD, I think) is sadistic, too. My brother and sister in law, who are frequent targets of her venom as well still think she's just too blunt, that she should think before she speaks etc. They don't realize that her insults are deliberate. She says many hurtful things for that very reason: to hurt. I've seen that same glee and satisfaction on her eyes, too, that you describe. She loves to torment others. Sadly, that seems to be the only love she can experience!

I am sorry that you have endured that behavior.    

The glee and satisfaction just destroys me at times. I agree with you. I think that is the only type of love that my mother can experience, besides her own narcissism.  

Why should you be empathetic toward her? She doesn't deserve your empathy, or goodwill, or understanding, or forgiveness. Anger and outrage are the only appropriate emotional responses to such sadism.

I really should not be empathetic towards someone who inflicted so much suffering and pain on me. I suffer from a pathological amount of guilt. That part of me makes me feel as if I need to forgive, be empathetic, or understand her. I feel guilty if I am not 'understanding' enough or if I feel angry towards her.

I have struggled with similar questions, though: since my mother is sick, and she's not responsible for her illness and for the fact that she had a terrible childhood, I feel somewhat sorry. Yet although she's not responsible for her illness, she still is responsible for her behaviour. And that's what's so vexing: it seems so calculated, so deliberate! She knows perfectly well when to behave nicely, and does so very convincingly…

Rationally I know that I am not responsible for her illness. Emotionally, I have been conditioned to blame myself for her disorder. She has literally told me that it was my fault that she raged or became 'sick.' I punished myself for her behavior for years.

One more thought regarding anger: I felt white hot anger when I realized how sadistic my mother is. That was positive for me, because for decades, I'd repressed that anger to protect her. Directing it towards her was liberating. It was a catalyst for change.

I have that white hot anger towards my mother, especially when she does not remember the physical and mental abuse she inflicted. The abuse is something that I do not forget and the impact of it is something that I struggle with on a daily basis.

[Sunfl0wer]

Hi EaglesJuju,

First, I have to join the others in acknowledging the horrifying things your mom has put you through!  (understatement)  

Um ... my "other" mother has schizophrenia.

I have seen her laugh at someone's pain, proud of it.

BPD, being on the border of reality seems different.

With my mom with schizophrenia, having only experienced her mostly as an adult  ... .and not a child that was conditioned around her experience as a norm... .

I feel a distance from her when she is experiencing different levels of non lucidity.  So when she is not lucid, my mind switches to cartoon mode or something, and I'm aware she is not exactly in the same world as me.  She will sadistically laugh, but it reminds me of that cartoon dog that cackles (Mutley)... .it seems not real to me.

I wonder if because she raised you that your reality... .was her reality... .Therefore you do not go into a distant cartoon mode like I do.  Or some other mental representation that flags your mind that reality has just been warped.

It is very very confusing to me on how to think about this "S" mom.  I suppose that I am using a form of splitting in a sense to cope... .kinda.  I'm not convinced this actually counts as splitting.

With my BPD mom, I had compassion and let go of bad feelings.

With my "S" mom, her reality is so off base, it is too hard to relate.  She is so clearly unable to control much of it, that yes, I have felt so much guilt.  She has no capacity... .even fleeting... .to truly relate to my experience.  I know pple say their BPD partner has "no capacity" often, however, with "S" mom, I believe... .she very LITERALLY has NO capacity to truly relate to my experience.

Where my BPD mom can play a role as a "victim" and then switch out.  My schizo mom has so little control and compass to find reality... .that my anger and frustration towards her can more easily turn to guilt.

The not so nice truth is... .

To cope, I have maybe in a sense objectified her as "schizophrenic" in order to relieve myself of some obligations and personalizing her behaviors.

Edit:  I realize that not all people with schizophrenia present the same, and that there are different types.  Sorry if I hijacked by not talking about the correct type/presentation of the person your mom is.  Maybe something is helpful.

[jhkbuzz]

I cannot relate to my mother as a child, because I do know that her childhood was not filled with abuse or trauma. She had a completely different childhood, than the one she provided for me.

You know, I wouldn't be so sure about that. My stepdaughter has NO idea about her mother's trauma experiences - and there were many.

[Attie]

Hello 

That sounds quite horrible. Glad you've got a therapist to help you with that.

I do remember my mother, as others said in this thread, more like out of control rage than sadistic. I don't think she was enjoying it. I think she was just so very angry that she could not deal in any other way than to scream at me and hit me.

Her eyes would turn pitch black, dead, absolutely scary in those moments. But in her good moments there was not a hint of violence. There was a lot of care and love even. So, I'd say no sadism.