I know what is happening to me.

[valet]

I am really upset right now.

I have been bottling my emotions for so long trying to look strong on this board, trying to appear above my own emotional capabilities. The truth is, I haven't accepted much of anything. I still love my pwBPD, and I would get back with her in a second if I wasn't so afraid of being hurt.

I don't want to be afraid of being hurt anymore. I want to be able to look the pain in the eyes and take it for what it is while still doing what is best for myself and my future.

I have seen her 2 times in the passed 3 days, and she has been the girl that I used to know. The girl capable of great conversations and easy laughs; the girl with ambitions and goals; the girl that I see as utterly afraid that I want to help. The two pieces of the puzzle are starting to merge for me. She is her disorder, and her disorder is her. She is beautiful and lost, and it is absolutely breaking my heart. I think that I am understanding what it takes to let go now. I almost understand the difference between NC and detachment. I want to cut her off for a while, and although it seems like the easiest path, maybe it is not a real solution. I can handle the pain if it continues to lead me to these resolutions. I want to handle it if leads me to these resolutions.

I don't know what is going on completely, but I feel that at this moment I am hurting really bad and there is no FOG. Everything is what it is, and I don't know what comes next.

[valet]

It makes me question the point of boundaries at all.

If we all could accept our own pain, why would we need them?

Aren't they a direct invalidation of our emotions, self-hatred gone wild?

[mrwigand]

Valet, I completely know where you're coming from, and I'm glad you're not trying to appear strong anymore. Since when did we decide it was inherently good to be "strong" (that being said, your decision to really deal with your pain is strength as well).

I don't know what you're current relationship is with your ex, but I know that at one point you were trying maintain a friendship with her. But if you're still in love with her you MUST establish distance so you can heal. It's that simple. Forget the logical part of you accepts her illness fully for what it is. That's great, having substantive contact with her while you're clearly still in love with her is just going to prologue your pain.

[Turkish]

I saw my Ex today when she brought the kids to church. She seemed so stable. I thought,."this is the woman I loved." She tried to engage me in conversation other than the normal "kid business" as I think of it. I deflected. I sense that she might be worried about me, and it elicits anger on my part. She always asks how I am doing, and I perceive it to be sincere. I fell into a deep depression today. Going into work without anybody else there didn't help much. I came home. It helped a little.

What comes next? I wish I had answers for us. I still hear the voice of my T, and the lessons here, "what are you doing to take care of yourself?" I don't have a good answer to that. What about you valet?

[Sunfl0wer]

It makes me question the point of boundaries at all.

If we all could accept our own pain, why would we need them?

Aren't they a direct invalidation of our emotions, self-hatred gone wild?

One of my thoughts... .

Sticking to boundaries helps teach people how to treat you. 

For example:  Even if a person can survive and withstand the pain of being cheated on, what does that communicate about them? How does that enable the cheater?  How will the act affect the respect of all involved.

 

Boundaries are a good way to self love.   ... .not self hatred.

Having said that... .

It sounds like you have set some boundaries that you feel you need to change?

Changing boundaries is not "bad"  ... .just be aware of what you are doing.  Do it with your eyes open to possibilities.  Decide why you are doing it and for what purpose.  Don't do it in a state of denial. (as tho we can be aware of our denial  )

[valet]

Valet, I completely know where you're coming from, and I'm glad you're not trying to appear strong anymore. Since when did we decide it was inherently good to be "strong" (that being said, your decision to really deal with your pain is strength as well).

I don't know what you're current relationship is with your ex, but I know that at one point you were trying maintain a friendship with her. But if you're still in love with her you MUST establish distance so you can heal. It's that simple. Forget the logical part of you accepts her illness fully for what it is. That's great, having substantive contact with her while you're clearly still in love with her is just going to prologue your pain.

We are friends. I don't know what she wants, but I sense re-engagement.

I think that my fears will prevent it from doing just that. But that's where things get confusing to me. What are those fears? If I did not fear that intimacy, I would make that mistake and learn from it. I am torn between my own insecurities and doing things that aren't good for myself.

I saw my Ex today when she brought the kids to church. She seemed so stable. I thought,."this is the woman I loved." She tried to engage me in conversation other than the normal "kid business" as I think of it. I deflected. I sense that she might be worried about me, and it elicits anger on my part. She always asks how I am doing, and I perceive it to be sincere. I fell into a deep depression today. Going into work without anybody else there didn't help much. I came home. It helped a little.

What comes next? I wish I had answers for us. I still hear the voice of my T, and the lessons here, "what are you doing to take care of yourself?" I don't have a good answer to that. What about you valet?

The same thing happened to me shortly after I woke up this morning. I fell into a deep depression. I am glad that you have become capable of helping yourself in these situations. I had the same realization last night. That it is ok to take a mental break sometimes in order to preserve my own sanity. Those breaks are for me. I did that today and did some work for a class that I am teaching this coming week.

Your second question: 'what am I doing?'

Again, I am learning, but I understand that this is a process and that I haven't learned what I need to yet.

I don't know if what I am doing is ultimately healthy or unhealthy. The one thing that I can say is that I will not give up on this friendship. I see the good and the bad. The bad does not overwhelm the good. This could be a false hope, but I (and ironically) hope that it isn't.

These are the facts: there are no children involved; there is no money involved; there are many mutual friendships thrown in the mix, but they do not affect how I will be perceived by others.

So, why not choose to do what is best for myself? I don't know, I just want to learn, and what I'm doing right now seems like the best way.

[valet]

It makes me question the point of boundaries at all.

If we all could accept our own pain, why would we need them?

Aren't they a direct invalidation of our emotions, self-hatred gone wild?

One of my thoughts... .

Sticking to boundaries helps teach people how to treat you. 

For example:  Even if a person can survive and withstand the pain of being cheated on, what does that communicate about them? How does that enable the cheater?  How will the act affect the respect of all involved.

 

Boundaries are a good way to self love.   ... .not self hatred.

Having said that... .

It sounds like you have set some boundaries that you feel you need to change?

Changing boundaries is not "bad"  ... .just be aware of what you are doing.  Do it with your eyes open to possibilities.  Decide why you are doing it and for what purpose.  Don't do it in a state of denial. (as tho we can be aware of our denial  )

This is the conundrum: the 'new' boundaries that I have set seem not to apply to my pwBPD.

They apply to friends, other ex's, and new people that I meet, but just not to her.

This is something that I need to fix.

[Turkish]

valet,

I could be something like BFFs with my Ex. Part of me likes that idea. I struggle with what is healthy for me. I resent myself, that sometimes I feel better when she makes a late night call and I feel better when I hang up. What's best for you, only you can determine, and no one here should judge you.

T

[Sunfl0wer]

I agree with Turkish, judgement has no benefit here.

I am though a bit confused about how she has different boundaries than others. And am "thinking" out loud here.

Can you explain?

Talking through boundaries is not a skill I have.  What I think I may remember though is... .

Aren't boundaries about upholding your own values? 

Do you have a different set of values for her?

Or maybe I've got boundaries wrong.

[valet]

Hey sunflower, I don't know how to answer your question. Here's my attempt:

I do have different boundaries with her. I don't know if they are hers or mine, and I don't know where to draw any kind of blurry, messed up line. I love her, and I want her to be happy. I don't know what this means for myself, not yet. I want to wait and see. I feel that I have only scratched the surface of what is truly going on in myself. Maybe she is a way for me to explore this pain?

What does that mean, though? I mean, it seems that she would be my de facto internal therapist; the motivating factor for me to improve myself. But why? Why would I choose a pwBPD to center my self-realizations around. Is the pain the only thing that can motivate me enough to better myself?

I feel like giving up, to be honest. I am tired of psychologizing everything that people say and do, but I am torn between that and my deep curiosity for understanding why people behave in the ways that we do.

[Turkish]

Boundaries are about upholding our own values. I'm not responsible for your feelings, nor are you to me.

Getting Our Values and Boundaries in Order

[jhkbuzz]

The truth is, I haven't accepted much of anything. I still love my pwBPD, and I would get back with her in a second if I wasn't so afraid of being hurt... .

I don't know if what I am doing is ultimately healthy or unhealthy. The one thing that I can say is that I will not give up on this friendship... .

How can you maintain a friendship with someone you're still in love with, Valet? With someone who, by the very nature of their disorder, can't be in the kind of reciprocal, intimate relationship that you desire? Won't a 'friendship' with her trap you in an endless cycle of longing and emotional turmoil? Is that healthy or unhealthy for you, do you think?

I am really upset right now.

I have been bottling my emotions for so long trying to look strong on this board, trying to appear above my own emotional capabilities... .I want to be able to look the pain in the eyes and take it for what it is while still doing what is best for myself and my future... .I don't know what is going on completely, but I feel that at this moment I am hurting really bad and there is no FOG. Everything is what it is, and I don't know what comes next.

That's a painful place to be, Valet. I've begun to understand recently that I intellectualize to avoid going "through" the pain that I've experienced. I've made the decision to stop doing this and explore the pain with my T. I'll let you know how that journey goes.

It's hard when you love someone and have to let them go. As a non-disordered person, we see shades of gray. I haven't painted my ex black; there are many wonderful and lovely things about her that I still miss - but her selfish and hurtful behaviors are ones I can't live with. That's the truth and it's sad but it is what it is. I've only gotten to this place of acceptance through no contact. It took a year to get here and it can still be painful sometimes, but much less so and much less frequently.

Take some time to be a little selfish, to focus on your own needs and your own well-being and ask yourself the question: what is it within YOU that compels you to remain in a 'friendship' with someone who you're in love with, with someone who can't reciprocate your feelings? Why would you put yourself in that terribly lonely and painful place?

[sas1729]

Hey Valet,

I think I understand what you are saying to some extent, Valet. I stayed with my BPDex for 2.5 years. That's a short time by many of the stories here, but I did learn something crucial about myself. I stayed in a big part because I thought I could fix her. I thought that I could change her. I learned that 1) You can't really change people and 2) It was my own issue that kept me in that relationship. Yes, I was scared to be alone. I think there is actually some security in the pattern of push/pull that is a relationship with a pwBPD. It's interesting because the pain can be acute yet somehow because it was a cycle there was stability.

I have learned from several posts on this forum that people have suddenly been left. That did not happen to me. It sounds like your pwBPD is definitely in your social sphere. Obviously the fact that you love her is keeping you attached on some level, but do you think perhaps there is another need that she's satisfying? As I said, in my case I needed to try to fix the relationship. Even after I learned about BPD I kept at it, hoping and trying. Of course I failed. The point is that I learned that I am narcissistic. It was presumptuous of me to try to fix the relationship.

It was very hard for me to set boundaries. I was scared to. But that's a different story. I did learn that when I tried to set boundaries they were pushed and pushed and crossed and eventually I retreated and gave in.

In the mix of logic and feelings of love that you're exploring when it comes to staying connected to your pwBPD, perhaps ask if there is another need that the relationship is satisfying. In the end, you need to take care of yourself. Recognizing when you've learned all there is to learn is difficult but a step towards taking care of yourself.

[valet]

Take some time to be a little selfish, to focus on your own needs and your own well-being and ask yourself the question: what is it within YOU that compels you to remain in a 'friendship' with someone who you're in love with, with someone who can't reciprocate your feelings? Why would you put yourself in that terribly lonely and painful place?

I'll consider today day one.

My pwBPD invited me to a party tomorrow night, and I told her that I would not be there. I think I just realized that she surrounds herself with unhealthy people, those that enable her behavior and approve of everything that she does. Right now I feel motivated by anger. I'm working on feeling that anger right now without letting it hurt others.

This is for me. I need a break. I need my sanity back.

I think there is actually some security in the pattern of push/pull that is a relationship with a pwBPD. It's interesting because the pain can be acute yet somehow because it was a cycle there was stability.

I have learned from several posts on this forum that people have suddenly been left. That did not happen to me. It sounds like your pwBPD is definitely in your social sphere. Obviously the fact that you love her is keeping you attached on some level, but do you think perhaps there is another need that she's satisfying? As I said, in my case I needed to try to fix the relationship. Even after I learned about BPD I kept at it, hoping and trying. Of course I failed. The point is that I learned that I am narcissistic. It was presumptuous of me to try to fix the relationship.

It was very hard for me to set boundaries. I was scared to. But that's a different story. I did learn that when I tried to set boundaries they were pushed and pushed and crossed and eventually I retreated and gave in.

Your first statement, I think that it is absolutely true. This is all that I have known for nearly the past 3 years, and perhaps even much longer. There is an awkward stability to the cycle, and it feels easy to get caught up in. I'll keep it in mind moving forward.

I think that there is a veiled narcissism going on here. I want to believe that I can do this, that I can absolutely overcome my own emotions without any sort of real break and expect everything to turn out fine. This doesn't really make sense, now that I think about it. I'm not so focused on fixing the romantic relationship. I don't think that's coming back, and it wouldn't be the same if it did. The friendship, maybe, is what I want to work. The flaw in my logic is that I expect it to work like a 'normal' healthy friendship, when by nature of the disorder this is absolutely impossible, especially if my pwBPD were to deregulate. For it to work in any way, I would have to fully accept the disorder and do my best to deflect when I am pressed. I think that I can do this, but not without taking some time to fully heal from the end of the romantic relationship.

What you're saying about boundaries is happening to me. I think that I had them established in a pretty solid way when I was still abroad, but ever sense I got home a level of comfort with dropping them has set in. Or maybe it is just that there are many mutual friends here, which kind of implies that I will see my pwBPD quite a bit more than I would have a couple months ago. I need to adjust my boundaries in this 'new' environment. I need to learn what they mean to me, and not feel responsible for the emotions of the mutual friends thrown into the mix. If they want to talk about things, I will oblige. They deserve to know that it isn't about them specifically, but rather me maintaining myself and my own sanity.

[Pretty Woman]

Valet 

I feel for you. I know. I've been there. When they are lucid... .WOW you just remember all the good stuff.

Problem is: There was bad stuff.  It is easy to remember good... .less painful, but in this case you want to remember all the shyt they did.

I have been through two recycles now and 10 breakups in three years. This time she is with someone near us.  In the past she would be gone two months tops... .this really feels like IT. And you know what? It is. Because when she shows up smiling on my doorstep with the puppy we shared, the puppy she ripped away from me... .I will be able to tell her, "I wish you well, never darken my doorstep again" and shut the door. End of story.

[valet]

This is not a response to anyone, more like a journal entry for people to comment on. I don't want to lose this thought.

I was sitting outside in the backyard of my mom's house, and I had a major realization.

I thought, my mother can only annoy me. She is anxious and always needs something to do, and she projects that on to me and my sister. My father died about a year and a half ago. I understand that as a way for her to cope, but maybe it always has been her way of doing this.

I don't know what this means for myself or my expectations in relationships. I feel that I am a lot calmer than her, better at separating my anxieties from truth, but this thought appeared and I think that is related to myself, my pwBPD and maybe all of us.

The main idea: our relationship with our mothers determines how we treat others. What we tolerate and how we tolerate it. My mother tolerated a lot from my father. He was a functioning alcoholic. She enabled him by not leaving him, which provided him security. This is painful. In hindsight, I have told her jokingly that maybe seeking divorce might have been a good thing. I think that I want to have a more serious conversation with her.

My pwBPD's mother is and was abusive towards her and her sister. I know her mother's history and it isn't pleasant, so I cast no direct blame or hatred towards her. It does, however, explain a lot for me. It means something. If our mother is our primary caregiver and she is not emotionally healthy, wouldn't it make sense that we adapt in unhealthy ways?

We (partners of pwBPD) don't know how to cope with situations that others would process, feel, and learn from, because of what we learned direct from our moms. Not in the same way. This is my point. My ex had ex's before me. They don't talk to her anymore, have new partners and have appeared to move on. So, this will be painful, but it is slowly becoming necessary that I need to set boundaries that will allow me to let go.

[jhkbuzz]

This is not a response to anyone, more like a journal entry for people to comment on. I don't want to lose this thought.

I was sitting outside in the backyard of my mom's house, and I had a major realization.

I thought, my mother can only annoy me. She is anxious and always needs something to do, and she projects that on to me and my sister. My father died about a year and a half ago. I understand that as a way for her to cope, but maybe it always has been her way of doing this.

I don't know what this means for myself or my expectations in relationships. I feel that I am a lot calmer than her, better at separating my anxieties from truth, but this thought appeared and I think that is related to myself, my pwBPD and maybe all of us.

The main idea: our relationship with our mothers determines how we treat others. What we tolerate and how we tolerate it. My mother tolerated a lot from my father. He was a functioning alcoholic. She enabled him by not leaving him, which provided him security. This is painful. In hindsight, I have told her jokingly that maybe seeking divorce might have been a good thing. I think that I want to have a more serious conversation with her.

My pwBPD's mother is and was abusive towards her and her sister. I know her mother's history and it isn't pleasant, so I cast no direct blame or hatred towards her. It does, however, explain a lot for me. It means something. If our mother is our primary caregiver and she is not emotionally healthy, wouldn't it make sense that we adapt in unhealthy ways?

We (partners of pwBPD) don't know how to cope with situations that others would process, feel, and learn from, because of what we learned direct from our moms. Not in the same way. This is my point. My ex had ex's before me. They don't talk to her anymore, have new partners and have appeared to move on. So, this will be painful, but it is slowly becoming necessary that I need to set boundaries that will allow me to let go.

Last month I visited my parents for the first time in 8 years... .the last time I saw them was at the very beginning of my r/s with my ex. The trip itself was truly enjoyable.

For the past year (in sessions with my therapist) I've described my mom as someone who often raged and hit us.  But until I saw her last month I had forgotten how anxious she can be. Much to my surprise, I watched myself quickly fall into old patterns of behavior with her - especially when she was anxious. I decided to allow it to happen since it wasn't unpleasant; I simply observed myself and all my responses. It was an interesting experience to be in the moment but yet be utterly calm and detached enough to just watch myself interact with her.

It was like an ancient dance; one I knew so well that I slipped right into it without a thought; it felt so familiar and comfortable and right to soothe her when she was anxious; to be the steady, calming influence to help her with her anxiety. She even complimented me on it at one point of the trip and I thought, "Of course I'm good at it - I learned how to do it from dad and I practiced for years."

Needless to say, all sorts of light bulbs began going off for me regarding my r/s with my sometimes anxious, sometimes angry ex.

... .our relationship with our mothers determines how we treat others. What we tolerate and how we tolerate it... .If our mother is our primary caregiver and she is not emotionally healthy, wouldn't it make sense that we adapt in unhealthy ways?

Yes indeed.

I'm sure you've read posts from member 2010; this is one that resonated with me deeply:

"Certain personalities continue to return over and over again to interact with a Borderline due to their own childhood issues. People stay in abusive situations because they are vaguely familiar with the voicelessness from childhood which they have repressed. The Borderline becomes a cipher that unlocks that Pandora's Box of memories. This person, the attachment, is a Fata Morgana."

I had to look up several vocabulary words to understand that quote completely!  But when I did I realized: in many ways, my ex was a stand in, a "fata morgana." It is why the breakup was so painful - it represented other, more ancient wounds that hadn't healed. It's why I ruminated on my ex for so long - except my rumination wasn't really about her at all.

... .this will be painful, but it is slowly becoming necessary that I need to set boundaries that will allow me to let go.

And with the letting go and the passage of time and some hard work you will begin to understand the wounds in you that have kept you hooked into a r/s with someone who isn't able to reciprocate the love and intimacy that you want with a s/o.

I'm not sure I could have understood my own wounds until we went n/c and I began to detach.

[BorisAcusio]

JHK gave you some excellent perspectives.

Those who remained Facebook friends with their ex-partner had lower rates of personal growth, the study found. This suggests maintaining even a weak connection over the Internet post-breakup might disrupt moving on, Marshall said, noting this also indicates emotional recovery and growth might be separate processes.

It was supposed to be conducted on relatively healthy pool of adults, without traumatizing each other in a way a PD relationship does.

[LimboFL]

Boris hit the nail on the head.

As someone who is out 7 months from a 4 year relationship, with someone I loved, the one common theme on this board is that anyone who keeps any sort of connection with their ex, ALWAYS, suffers more and longer. There are some here who, because they have children with their ex's, have no other choice in the matter and I feel deeply for them.

Forgive me as in concept I completely understand the desire to keep a connection. I miss my ex deeply, despite the knowledge of the pain she did and would continue to bring me to have any sort of relationship with her. When you truly love someone and it ends prematurely, no matter how much we deal with our emotions ultimately we are only dealing with how to move forward and fix what might be wrong within us. Without distance, you cannot expel the love you have for this person.

The result is what I read here over and over, non's bent over in pain after any sort of contact. I know, my ex left a loving message on my phone three weeks ago. I didn't even speak with her but I did email her with love, in return. It set me back a great deal, lots of tears again, heartache and missing. To a degree I am still not completely out of it. The only way out is to do ones best to forget as much as we can.

It is crushing to let go of someone with whom we shared so much. It feels completely unnatural. How can we go from spending so much time with someone whom we love and suddenly it has all evaporated, like it never was?

Any belief that one can get past it and just be friends, in my humble opinion, is simply not possible. As has been noted, because of the distance that has already occurred since the split, our ex's WILL seem normal, because our interactions are short lived and we simply fall right back into the FOG, we ignore the red flags and question whether our months of discussions about BPD were even warranted.

It is simply a recipe for sustained pain and heartache. The people who completely cut their ex's out heal faster. The hurt is as deep and it still takes a very long time, but every day forward is a day away from it all. From my own experience, just that quick interaction with my ex set me back at least a couple of months.

As a final thought to ponder, please do keep in mind that with the exception of those with kids, any continued contact with an ex makes one an orbiter, the one thing that most of us had to contend with and was a constant source of anguish. . Is this really desired? Please know that I am coming from a position of compassion, not accusation. I have never traveled a road this painful and I am 47, so I understand.

Just some thoughts to ponder.

[rotiroti]

Thank you Boris and LimboFL... .it's incredibly difficult to move on and your posts reminded me that I am on the right track. I know things like facebook or casual contact seems appealing. I don't think I would be where I am in recovery if I didn't let go of those comforts. It's what worked for me at least.

[valet]

I'm sure you've read posts from member 2010; this is one that resonated with me deeply:

"Certain personalities continue to return over and over again to interact with a Borderline due to their own childhood issues. People stay in abusive situations because they are vaguely familiar with the voicelessness from childhood which they have repressed. The Borderline becomes a cipher that unlocks that Pandora's Box of memories. This person, the attachment, is a Fata Morgana."

Thank you for bringing this back to my attention. I read it a while ago and it seemed logical, but it never really stuck with me. It makes a lot more sense now.

JHK gave you some excellent perspectives.

Those who remained Facebook friends with their ex-partner had lower rates of personal growth, the study found. This suggests maintaining even a weak connection over the Internet post-breakup might disrupt moving on, Marshall said, noting this also indicates emotional recovery and growth might be separate processes.

It was supposed to be conducted on relatively healthy pool of adults, without traumatizing each other in a way a PD relationship does.

This is the part that confuses me. So far I've thought that I could keep regular contact and still recover. It worked for a while, but the change in environments that I recently made has seemed to set me back quite a ways. If they are indeed separate processes, then what is stopping us from remaining friends?

That's the part that I don't fully get. Is it maturity? Is it a lack of acceptance? What is it, and why is it so hard?

Any belief that one can get past it and just be friends, in my humble opinion, is simply not possible. As has been noted, because of the distance that has already occurred since the split, our ex's WILL seem normal, because our interactions are short lived and we simply fall right back into the FOG, we ignore the red flags and question whether our months of discussions about BPD were even warranted.

As a final thought to ponder, please do keep in mind that with the exception of those with kids, any continued contact with an ex makes one an orbiter, the one thing that most of us had to contend with and was a constant source of anguish. . Is this really desired? Please know that I am coming from a position of compassion, not accusation. I have never traveled a road this painful and I am 47, so I understand.

The first bolded statement I take contention with. If we are healed and ready for a friendship, then why would it not be possible? To me, that doesn't seem to add up. It would indicate that we never heal fully from a PD relationship. Any comments?

Your second point I agree with absolutely. It makes me angry, however. Does the borderline suffer from these orbitor relationships?

They are absolutely painful for partners of pwBPD. There's not a single doubt in my mind about that, but are there ways to set boundaries that set us outside of the orbiter circle? Can we still know them, but not enable them in some way? That's what I want to drive at.

I think that I really do want friendship. The main question to myself would be, really, can it be healthy for me and also healthy for myPWD if done correctly?

[sas1729]

The truth is that I honestly don't know how one can remain in contact (friendship etc) with a BPDex. I don't even know how you could through mutual friends. The draw to return to them is too great I feel, or at least to remain interested in their lives and/or worry about them.

The hard thing to accept is that they are adults. They are responsible for their actions. For you to heal you may need to accept that their decisions can impact their lives negatively. We seem to willfully accept our own pain when we are in the relationship.

Trying to recover from emotional trauma while revisiting the triggers seems to me to be nearly impossible. Perhaps after full recovery, if you are still interested one can revisit a BPDex as a friend.

[valet]

The truth is that I honestly don't know how one can remain in contact (friendship etc) with a BPDex. I don't even know how you could through mutual friends. The draw to return to them is too great I feel, or at least to remain interested in their lives and/or worry about them.

The hard thing to accept is that they are adults. They are responsible for their actions. For you to heal you may need to accept that their decisions can impact their lives negatively. We seem to willfully accept our own pain when we are in the relationship.

Trying to recover from emotional trauma while revisiting the triggers seems to me to be nearly impossible. Perhaps after full recovery, if you are still interested one can revisit a BPDex as a friend.

Hey sas, I appreciate your perspective here. This is hard for all of us. It's nice that we have a safe place to bounce ideas off of each other here.

Let me tell you how I've made it at least semi-possible. I don't feel that I need to explain myself, but this might help others out.

The bolded part: I found bpdfamily about a month after my relationship ended. Nothing seemed right and I felt like I was going crazy. This is normal, I now understand.

Somewhere along the line, however, I had this realization: I never really loved my ex, not in the way that I should have to justify a serious romantic relationship. From the very beginning of the relationship, I knew that it was wrong. To be absolutely honest, I completely enabled her poor decision making. She was with my best male friend a month before we got together. I lost him for a while after that, and our relationship will never be the same.

Reflecting on that part of my life, I don't know if we were truly compatible enough to stay friends. Now I think not so much, but he wasn't a bad person and I did him a pretty terrible disservice by making the choices that I did. I don't feel guilty about it, but I realize my part in the dance back then.

My pwBPD was my best friend, and I never saw her as more than that... .at least not until we started having sex. In hindsight, this was probably what I projected onto her as she continued to mirror me. My justification to stay in the relationship was that all of the pieces seemed fit into place. We had the same interests, the same friends, and she absolutely idolized me. Why would I not at least give it a chance? The future only seemed bright. The only thing that could go wrong was that my feelings would snap back after the honeymoon and I would move on. This, unfortunately, is not what happened. We bonded and became overwhelmingly enmeshed with each other. She was my family, and I was hers. We were meant to be together forever, in my mind.

This triggered her fears as well as her inability to cope with the idea that there is no 'ideal' romantic love, something that she has been searching for since childhood. Her family was broken. Her mother was not a good caretaker. She was and is trying to fix that by projecting this myth of perfection onto any man that she is interested in. It will always fail, and she will always search, only to suffer from the false ideology that she developed as a maladaptive coping mechanism.

When I realized that I never really had much romantic interest in my pwBPD before the sex part started, and that it developed over time because of the physical intimacy largely initiated by her, a lot of walls came crashing down. It doesn't hurt to talk to her. I believe it allowed me to detach from the romance part, and I don't really feel much of an urge to be in a relationship with her. I think that my posts the other day were just about stopping the pain that I was feeling, but I look at them now and I don't really buy into that 'getting back together' part. That said, my head was a bit of a mess then and now it feels pretty clear, so who knows what I would do in a moment of weakness.

As long as none of her orbiters are around, I am fine. The orbiters are a big anxiety trigger for me. My ex had a 'best guy friend' that I'm certain she began to idealize, just as she did with me. I think that her projections onto him were the reason that I was devalued. I was no longer idealized with the same passion as the very beginning, whereas he was new. She had just begun the process with him. It was only a matter of time from then on. Things started to fall apart and there was nothing that I could do except leave, and I chose not to. I had become too codependent and lost in the FOG to see the reality of the situation. The relationship was not going to weather the storm. I accept responsibility for the intense pain that I went through that last year, and I forgive myself.

I need to work on realizing the role that these triangulation partners/orbiters play in the dance. If I can de-personalize their behavior, I think that I can have a more normal friendship with my pwBPD. This is work that I have to do, and in time I think that I can get it done. Of course, I need to learn more, and until I do I will set boundaries that prevent me from being around these people.

[rotiroti]

Do you mean orbiters are still triggering you? Or just while you guys were romantically involved?

and

Did your best male friend ever mention  ?

[LimboFL]

Valet,

My very gentle question is that if, ultimately, it isn't really the best of situations why is it such an imperative to continue to have a friendship with your ex?

I met one of my ex's ex's and while he wasn't a threat, there were two that were, more so because of what I believe my ex felt for them. In fact, during the first stages of our relationship it was clear that these two were people she definitely had a serious prior connection to and she even eluded to this.

Having been around the family for some time, I have read your posts and the relationship with your ex was clearly a deep one, for you both. In other words, you weren't one of the "fly by night" short lived relationships. So no matter what your motives might be, in my world you would be considered an orbiter of threat. The only way I could see around it would be to actually communicate with the new partner, who might already be half way out the door already. My ex has had a lot of relationships, so I suspect that she will go through many more and she is already 45, so not a young vixen and she has other issues beyond BPD that I won't get into here. In other words, there is a part of me that would almost wish to put the next person, especially if they are the replacement through the same anguish that I went through.

I digress. I don't know you valet so this is only an observation from afar, but I do wonder what the origins are of what seems to be a dogged goal to maintain a friendship with your ex. It almost sounds like an inability to detach or a subconscious hope that by remaining friends, one thing will lead to another. This is not a judgment.

The most important sentence that I read in your postings on this thread the one where you described that you woke up the next day depressed (paraphrase). Do you really believe that this will ever change with someone with whom you had such a deep connection? It is one thing when a quick relationship ends because it just didn't work out or a very long relationships ends with a mutual understanding (neither of those really work out but it is possible). Things are quite different when things end with one person still very much in love with the other and it's sudden.

You still speak of your ex with deep love and affection. I am not sure how one can switch from being very much in love to "I love this person as a friend". I am sure it's not impossible but I certainly couldn't do it. Some people can but only when both parties are level headed etc. Even then it isn't close, like best buds.

Ultimately though, more power to you if you can handle this and keep everything uncomplicated. It just sounds like a great deal of extra pain. I can't tell you how much I miss my ex, so again, this isn't coming from a lack of understanding but I require a complete black out. I do not want to know who she is with, where she is, nothing. It's for my own protection otherwise I would just live in, well, limbo. These last 7 months have been hard enough, I can't spend the next 7 months living that let alone who knows how many years ahead. When I sent my email to me ex, I told her how much I loved her but that I would never understand, that it took me a very long time to get over the pain and so the communication could not go any further than my email to her. That she would always be in my heart and that I would always care and that I missed her. In other words, again, I understand. It set me back badly.

Maybe you are different valet. My only advice, as someone who cares, is for your to dig really deep down to understand completely why you feel such a deep need to remain friends with her.  

[LimboFL]

I just read your last post, valet, which went out just as I was posting my last response. I misread you relationship with your ex, so retract my comments. If you didn't love her then it is very possible to succeed in your intended goal.

[valet]

I just read your last post, valet, which went out just as I was posting my last response. I misread you relationship with your ex, so retract my comments. If you didn't love her then it is very possible to succeed in your intended goal.

Hey Limbo, I guess all of that does sound like a confusing whirlwind.

I grew to love (although I question the meaning of the word now) my ex deeply during our relationship, enough so that I'm still trying to figure a lot of the aftermath out, but I never thought about dating her until she initiated physical intimacy. I had unhealthy boundaries then, which lead to a lot of pain after I had become attached/enmeshed.

I know it sounds unusual, and I feel like it's one of the vaguest, apprently denial ridden statements that I've said thus far, but I have to claim it as truth. I'd be lying if I didn't.

She's still very important to me, but maybe just because of the bond we had before the relationship became romantic. I can't really say. I'm still trying to figure it out.

[valet]

Do you mean orbiters are still triggering you? Or just while you guys were romantically involved?

and

Did your best male friend ever mention  ?

The orbiters triggered me then. The old orbiters don't trigger me anymore, those that were around during me and my ex's relationship. The new ones that have appeared after the relationship ended, however, are currently my biggest source of stress. Those people, and whomever I'd venture she's seeing at the time.

That said, I need better boundaries for myself. I don't need to know the information that I do, and my curiosity about a lot of it has only hurt me the past week or so.

Friend never mentioned any red flags, but I wasn't talking to him that much when the relationship with my pwBPD started, and after he found out we mutually stopped talking to each other.

[LimboFL]

That's fair valet. I can tell you that my story isn't so different than yours. My ex was not what I would call "my type" and it felt uncomfortable from the start but through empathy and my own desire to be loved, I fell in love with her. So much of her insults, bad behavior, reprimands, narcissism, orbiters, flash in the pan emotional "affairs" all the way through to the final replacement, all said "wrong" to me, but again, I fell in love with her. Like so many, I also refused to be the one who bailed. I was going to see it through. She was very difficult in bed, domineering to the point where it almost wasn't any fun, but then there were moments of true love, caring and vulnerability on her part. I watched her grapple with horrible anxiety etc etc etc.

Like you it is almost confusing as to why it drove me into the ground, at the end. But it did. I rolled before her new relationship had a chance to go anywhere (he lives 1000 miles away) and I suspect that her recent "I love you message" likely meant that it was either on the rocks or finished. As mentioned there is another "complication" that comes with her that I don' feel is necessary to mention that, once discovered, will complicate matters for her, to what degree I don't know but it's a deal breaker for many.

What I am trying to say is that I have had many moments where I knew that she wasn't exactly what I wanted nor was I ever sure I loved her but ultimately I know that I did and still do. I can ruminate about how angry her behavior made me but what i do know is that if the BPD wasn't a part of the mix, that I would have been very happy to spend the rest of my life with her, as a partner. That is my gauge for whether I loved her or not. Baring the disorder, could I have seen myself spending the rest of my days with her. Yes. But the BPD is there and it will never go away, so that isn't a possibility.  

[valet]

Hey Limbo, it really is amazing what we do to ourselves in the name of 'giving things a chance'!

In my case, my pwBPD was certainly my most serious relationship thus far. We lived together for about a year and a half, moved to a different continent, travelled, and were nearly attached at the hip.

I feel a lot more stable today than I did a couple of days ago. Those realizations I made were important.

This is how I am going to move forward: very strict boundaries; no big groups where there will be people that I don't trust; no image of anything other than friendship for me, when I do see her. Controlling the environment will help with that. It has in the past, but I lost sight of that when I got back home. I thought that I was fine, but really, there were emotions that hadn't been explored fully. I think that this weekend might have taught me some valuable lessons about myself. I like my pwBPD as a person. I really do hope that I can meet my goals, but I understand that maybe it just won't work for me.

Maybe these goals will offer me acceptance. Let's test things out and see if they work.

To add something, as this may be valuable as far as advice is concerned. My ex is going to a different country in September, potentially for another year. Maybe this is a stroke of luck for me. I don't know what will happen, but it could make it very easy for me to fully process everything and detach myself emotionally from the relationship. I am almost there, but not completely. I learned that, and I hope that it benefits me.

[LimboFL]

Valet, in the long run, I look positively on my willingness to try my best to "hold on". I still respect those who fight through the hard times. My parents did and in the last 10 years, prior to my Mothers passing, I have never seen a couple more in love. Prior to that I would never have bet on my parents surviving as a couple, for a year let alone 15 more.

I am the absolute antithesis of old school and I was not a good partner (not a cheater just too busy having "fun" in my 20 year marriage (not to my exBPD), but I did always and will continue to believe that it is impossible for any relationship to be only "good times", that like anything else, with enough work, the rewards will come. Of course, this does not take BPD into account, because there ultimately is no reward, only pain.

Your revelation about her moving out of country and your view on this speaks volumes. Forced distance. As mentioned before, the last thing I want is to not know where my ex is or if she is ok. If I allowed it to it would consume me, but I won't allow it to. I believe that you do still love this woman (anger and rebellion are part of the process of letting go, which includes our convincing ourselves that we didn't love them) and I, for one, am relieved that she will be leaving because I do believe that it is what is necessary for you to move on. My ultimate hope is that you do so before that happens.

As mentioned, while it hurt very badly to do so, something that I am deeply grateful for was that I had enough control and wisdom about me to send the final email that was full of love for her. I got to say goodbye with love. I suspect that, in part, a driving force for you is to ensure that you part ways with your ex, with love and not animosity. You are treading on much much thinner ice than I did, in order to accomplish that goal and I see more pain ahead for you but one has to do what one needs to do.

My hope is that I will see only positive postings from you, in the weeks to come and I wish you strength.

[rotiroti]

Leaving on a loving note like that LimboFL, always a pleasure to read updates on your story. Did you ever hear back since? I know if she did or not isn't different, because I am sure either way the message was well received (and most importantly it gave you peace! that's awesome)

[LimboFL]

Thank you rotiroti. No I didn't ever hear back from her, which was what I requested. It didn't give me total peace because I still think about her and miss her, but yes, it let her know where my head is at, how important she was and is to me and, as was mentioned in another thread, I was able to acknowledge a matter that I was able to address prior.

It is still, all, very painful stuff.

Thank you, again, though. I appreciate the positive feedback.

[valet]

Valet, in the long run, I look positively on my willingness to try my best to "hold on". I still respect those who fight through the hard times. My parents did and in the last 10 years, prior to my Mothers passing, I have never seen a couple more in love. Prior to that I would never have bet on my parents surviving as a couple, for a year let alone 15 more.

I am the absolute antithesis of old school and I was not a good partner (not a cheater just too busy having "fun" in my 20 year marriage (not to my exBPD), but I did always and will continue to believe that it is impossible for any relationship to be only "good times", that like anything else, with enough work, the rewards will come. Of course, this does not take BPD into account, because there ultimately is no reward, only pain.

Your revelation about her moving out of country and your view on this speaks volumes. Forced distance. As mentioned before, the last thing I want is to not know where my ex is or if she is ok. If I allowed it to it would consume me, but I won't allow it to. I believe that you do still love this woman (anger and rebellion are part of the process of letting go, which includes our convincing ourselves that we didn't love them) and I, for one, am relieved that she will be leaving because I do believe that it is what is necessary for you to move on. My ultimate hope is that you do so before that happens.

As mentioned, while it hurt very badly to do so, something that I am deeply grateful for was that I had enough control and wisdom about me to send the final email that was full of love for her. I got to say goodbye with love. I suspect that, in part, a driving force for you is to ensure that you part ways with your ex, with love and not animosity. You are treading on much much thinner ice than I did, in order to accomplish that goal and I see more pain ahead for you but one has to do what one needs to do.

My hope is that I will see only positive postings from you, in the weeks to come and I wish you strength.

Two strong statements that I agree with here.

Relationship or not, I have to look at my feelings and accept them. I don't think that I've done what I've needed to thus far to kill that attachment, not yet. I do still love her. I don't want to be with her. It's a strange paradox, but they cannot exist mutually. If I do want her in my life, then I cannot love her in the ways that I do now.

Your second point is driving a bit outside of my ability to emotionally comprehend right now. Again, this relates to my first (and central) confusion. The driving theme is this: I don't want to part ways with her forever, I just want to beat the attachment and move on from her romantically. Accepting her for who she actually is will be paramount. Not projecting hope is paramount. I cannot have the expectations that I used to with her if I want any kind of relationship. She is a pwBPD, and I have to understand the consequences of that.

Is this possible for me? I'm probably not fit to say at the moment, but I think so. The thing that I need to do right now is to spend a very long time in NC to process the full extent of my feelings. Big boundaries, no compromising. This is for me.

What happens after that, I can't say. I will have to evaluate at a later date.