Ex intimidated PC into quitting and wants to take kids on trip

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

It sounds as if you believe the courts will order ex to get therapy, he will abide, and he will get better. Ordering someone to get therapy will not work unless the person thinks he needs help or actually wants to get help.

"I kind of feel that everything will trigger him"  than no matter what you do he will get triggered  soo  do what you believe is best for the kids and you. He is gonna get triggered anyway. The best you can do is be consistent and have good boundaries for you and the kids.

[david]

It sounds as if you believe the courts will order ex to get therapy, he will abide, and he will get better. Ordering someone to get therapy will not work unless the person thinks he needs help or actually wants to get help.

"I kind of feel that everything will trigger him"  than no matter what you do he will get triggered  soo  do what you believe is best for the kids and you. He is gonna get triggered anyway. The best you can do is be consistent and have good boundaries for you and the kids.

[momtara]

L and L kind of hit on something - whenever I've gotten him to stop a hurtful behavior in the past, he's then done a new one. It just doesn't end. It's why I have often preferred to just be quiet and let things fade.

So this Saturday (I'm hesitant to admit this) he came to get the kids and started demanding an answer about some question he asked earlier. I said I would not discuss legal stuff in front of kids. He kept saying, well when are you gonna discuss it? over and over. I told him to leave either with them or without them, but leave. I stuck to my guns.

So he decided to leave. The kids said bye, he said bye, see you when you get home, and ex says, "They're not COMing home." Then I got upset that he said that, and he said he never said that. I had always told myself that my limit in terms of withholding them would be a veiled threat. His being mean to me is not a reason, but a threat is. So I called the police (maybe a bad move?) They talked to both of us and said if it was his time, he could take them, but were firm with him to get them back on time. I told them what he said, and they said it was hearsay. They were professional and the main cop said he was from a divorced home with nutty parents, but that ex probably wouldn't hurt them and I should let them go. He also talked to ex. He did ask me if he had a passport and stuff. Ex was acting fairly rationally and the kids weren't crying like they sometimes do when he fights.

They are not home yet from the weekend, but sound ok on the phone. But I called them twice this weekend and each time, ex followed up my phone call with texts saying, notice how I let them talk whenever you call, you should do the same for me, bla bla. He's just going to keep harassing me.

Despite my desire to keep things calm, he is mentally ill. I am still fairly resolute that I will have to get a good new pc that he pays for (shame to spend more money) and tighten his therapy notifications (yes, even if it doesn't help. better than just letting him someday stop going - that'd be bad for the kids.)

The variable is whether I get tough and ask to suspend visitation while we wait for a new pc or a pscyh assessment. Also not sure if our recent PC will give me any final thoughts in writing that would help, or if I have to subpoena her. My ex wants to go to court to ask for midweek dinners w/the kids so I'll have to fend off that too, at least until things get better.

I don't want to call my L just yet until I've really decided how tough I want to be, so I am giving it one more day to consult resources and think about it.

[ForeverDad]

My ex usually had her worst confrontations by phone and at exchanges, so I typically recorded them.  (I live in a state that allows recording.  Some don't but very few here have ever been punished for recording, lectures maybe but when you respond you need to prove you're not saying/doing anything wrong to avoid allegations, they usually let it go.)

On the one hand, this would have proved what happened.  On the other hand, (1) they still may not have seen it as fully actionable and (2) knowing about recordings could forever change how ex behaved in the future.  My ex directly threatened to kill me, admitting in court the recording was valid but the judge (not family court) decided she was Not Guilty because he applied case law limiting actionable threats to "imminent" threats.  Since she didn't have a weapon in her hands she could make her threats without judicial action.  At least in that judge's decision.

[david]

So you got the police involved. You can go to the police and get their report of the incident. See if they put in what was said by both parties or how much info is in it. If he brings them home than it was probably just to upset you. If he doesn't than he is making a bad choice which will have consequences if you go to court. If it were my ex she would bring them back. I have learned that my ex thrives in that kind of chaos. I don't care for it and it isn't in me to be that way.

When she first left my ex called my cell. It was upstairs and I was doing something so I let voicemail pick it up. About ten minutes later I went upstairs and listened to the voicemail. My ex said she was bringing the boys home a few hours later because blah, blah, blah. I called her and she picked up on the first ring. I realized right then that she was looking for confrontation. I immediately talked to her like she was a little kid and said, "Young lady, you better bring those boys home at 7 pm like the agreement said. If you don't you will be in biiig trouble. Do you understand me ?" She hung up right away and said nothing. It was around 6:50 pm. The boys walked into the house at 6:58. I never talked to her like that again because it is not in my nature and I felt it was very disrespectful to talk to an adult like that. I was seeing a therapist at the time and talked about it several days later because it really bothered me. My T pointed out that it worked and that maybe that is what my ex was looking for or needs.  I know if someone talked to me like that I would have laughed out loud and not taken it seriously.

[momtara]

Foreever dad, I had all those thoughts, so good to know they were valid thoughts.

Thanks David, good idea - will get report. It must have made you cringe to talk to her like that, but I guess if she had the emotional level of a 3 year old, that's what works. Seems like you haven't had to do it again. Good for you for figuring it out!

I wonder if this thread will be locked soon; will start a new one if it is.

My burning question now is - when I file court motion asking for PC etc, do I also ask for supervised visits until we have a new pc in place? Getting a court date could take over a month and that means he has 2-3 visits w/kids in meantime. I asked our outgoing pc and here is her response:

"You have to observe the children after they spend a weekend with [ex]. You had once supervised visits, so you are able to compare. Does he intimidate the children, do they want to spend time with [ex]? These are important questions to answer before you decide on this. He will probably be very upset by you opening a case again. I would try to write him an email explaining why you want him to be financially involved and listen to his response.

If you feel that he might endanger the children during this time, then supervised visits should be implemented.

Before doing all these, please discuss with your attorney how realistic would be to get [ex] to pay 50% for PC? How long it might take? What needs to be done?

Once you understand what has to be done, work with [ex]. Try to be as positive and as patient as possible."

They pretty much enjoy the visits and come home fine. But they don't always want to go (they are toddlers and prefer to stay home with me) and when he shows up and fights they get upset. So I dunno.

[livednlearned]

I also think you have to consider your own stance. If you are not convinced about what's the right thing to do, how will the court be convinced?

If you hedge, and aren't sure, and say that in court, then court will listen to that.

It sounds like you are not yet sure what's best. You do have to be persuasive in court. That's what the documentation is for, but your testimony and conviction also plays a part.

I can't compare my situation to yours because when I filed for full custody, I was not afraid of court. I was no longer afraid of my ex. He didn't do anything to S14, but the night he had his psychotic episode terrorized me and everything shifted that night. I decided no one would ever have the kind of effect on me again.

[momtara]

I know, and that's good advice. I am sure we need a good PC (now I have two who seem good) and ex pays half and I want him to say in his letter about therapy that he is still going at the same level as last year (every other week at least).

I don't know if I should get supervised until the court decides. So yes, I am wishy washy on that and still trying to make a decision before I write to my L and outline what I want. I am leaning against supervised for now, but something could sway me toward it.

[livednlearned]

Do you think your ex will pay 50%?

If he says no, then what?

[momtara]

He will likely say no, that's why I'm assuming we'll have to ask for it in an order with a few other things. I'm thinking we send a consent order to his L and he'll say no, and then we have to go to court.

Are you asking what I'll do if the judge orders it and he still refuses?

[livednlearned]

Yes. And I'm thinking about my own strategy -- I had to think about the long game, not the short game. Always.

I knew N/BPDx would obstruct every step of the way, so had to play things out the way it would likely work. It helped me manage my emotions, too. Knowing how N/BPDx would react allowed me to stay calm(er). That was better for me, better for S14, and better for N/BPDx. You are a little more enmeshed with your ex, so this aspect will be different for you, I think.

One parallel to your situation: when I filed to terminate visitation, my L knew to also file an emergency ex parte motion to suspend visitation. Like you, I knew ex was a wild card when dysregulated (I also think bipolar comorbidity escalates this). I also knew that based on prior experience with my judge, it was likely that the ex parte order would be heard and approved. There was enough history and the patterns were clear.

[momtara]

Ah!

Yes, I suppose I have to be clear about all steps after that, like how exactly he pays for the PC, that he presents a check by such and such a date, or something.

Your example involves protecting your kids... .were you leaning more toward that idea, or just my having a clear plan for how he pays the 50 percent?

He won't be happy about this, for sure.

[david]

I make a plan A, plan B, etc. It's all written down. Plan A is based on what I think is best and everything I want to accomplish in court. Plan B is what I think ex will fight about, object to, etc and I have answers for them all. I pretty much have her figured out. I don't always know what she will do but I get a sense of what points she will fight about. My ex wants, needs to be in control so the things that she believes takes that away she will fight against.

A few years ago our court order stated that I pick the kids up at her place after school and drop them off at her place the next morning. She would never let them take their school bags with them so I couldn't check their homework and what they were doing in school. Back then everything pretty much triggered her and she immediately went to court about anything.She filed a protection order against me because I was trying to talk to her about getting their school bags. Her petition claimed I threatened her. It was a complete fabrication. In court, I didn't argue the point of whether it was a fabrication or not. I simply stated it was not true. I then asked that instead of picking the boys up at her place and dropping them off there I would pick them up at school and drop them off at school the next day. This eliminated any chance that ex felt threatened since I would not be near her. I never mentioned the school bags. The judge liked the idea. I could see ex didn't like it but she had no choice since the judge stated that it was a good idea. I told my atty to get it in writing right then and there because she would fight this later. My atty hand wrote it as an order and gave it to the judge. He looked at it and had ex and I both sign it. He then signed it and it was an order from that point on. Judges like "reasonable" solutions and don't like having to make decisions. That afternoon I went to pick the boys up at school since it was my time. The school informed me that ex called that day and said I was not allowed to pick the boys up. I gave them a copy of the order since I expected something might happen. They questioned it since it was hand written. I told them to fax a copy to their legal dept and I would wait. Ten minutes later I was leaving with both boys. The school contacted ex later that day. They told me she "must have misunderstood the order". The order was quite clear.

[momtara]

well, the plot thickens. I told ex we need a new pc and he is going to have to pay 50 percent. his response was an email saying, ok, we can keep going to the old one, I can even meet with her next week. I still would have to change the order to give her the ability to contact his doctors and he still has to pay 50 percent, but no new retainer. I know he'd rather stick with this one than whoever comes next, which would cost us court $$$ and which could be a tougher person. This PC was not very effective, but maybe if she has more powers, she will be. So now I'm trying to consider whether we stay with this one BUT change the agreement so she can talk to his docs now, or go through court and pay thousands to get a new one who might be a little more effective in the long run but it'll mean court and money to get there (and anger and tensions). Have to process this today.