Questioning if MC is helping...

[Ceruleanblue]

I really like our MC, and I think BPDh does too, but I'm questioning if it's worth it. I try hard to take the advice MC offers, and I often think about exactly what we are supposed to be working on, and do so during the week. This week was "stop the zingers". Now, I don't feel I ever do "zingers", but I was especially mindful anyway. BPDh on the other hand, seemed to do it more, way more. I think it could be because he hates being told what to do, or what to work on. Maybe, but I'm just speculating.

Often, I leave MC feeling awful. I find out so many more things from BPDh that he resents, or just how flawed he thought our marriage was(just when I'd thought things had been great). It's also almost always me doing all the communicating, and I don't feel I can really bring up a lot of issues, because if I do, I'll later really catch it from BPDh. Plus, I like to focus mostly on the good, and only bring up the huge issues. I like there to be some balance.

Maybe this is just too much for BPDh, due to him also doing DBT right now? I think this week I'll ask if switching therapy days might to doable. He has DBT and we have MC on Mondays. That also tends to be a high stress day for him at work.

I want to think MC can really help, but I feel I'm the one doing all the work, and it's become all about ME, and nothing about him. I feel like he's trying to fix me, so he doesn't have to do any work on himself. Ideally, aren't you both supposed to do the work, and compromise, and work on having good will toward your partner? I just don't think that's happening. I get a lot out of MC, but BPDh recently asked me if I am, and told me he's not. He zones out. I'd bet he does the same thing in DBT, or just lets that T do all the talking, and he zones out. He admits his attention span in short when talking.

How beneficial is MC when dealing with PDs? I'm working on being less reactive to his insults/blame, but a lot of things he wants me to work on are things that make me who I am. I can't change some of those things, so how will MC help us?

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[formflier]

 

Can you describe what it would look like if MC was helping (in your opinion)

I am a fan of MC... .because you have a trained person there to help facilitate communication.

I've been "called out" to make a point clearer... .or softer... .or harder... .(many times I didn't like it)... .but... .honestly... when I think back... .I think the MC had it right.

Many times I have seen a MC "call out" my wife... .and have her redirect a point or question.

Will MC fix BPD... .nope.  Will it fix my wife's paranoia... .nope.

Communicating better... .less misunderstandings... .reduces the temperature... .

That's not cure... .but it helps life be more enjoyable... .fulfilling.

Ceruleanblue,

I encourage you to keep going... .but I think you are right on track to separate days... .split up DBT and MC.

FF

[thisagain]

Do you buy that his "attention span" is short in general, or is he zoning out when it gets emotionally difficult for him? If it's the latter, I'm not sure it'll be helpful until he learns to stay present and not zone out.

FF, how does your MC respond when your wife is painting you black and playing the victim? I'm surprised you ever got to talk about anything other than her false accusations.

[formflier]

FF, how does your MC respond when your wife is painting you black and playing the victim? I'm surprised you ever got to talk about anything other than her false accusations.

She redirects the accusations into "feelings"... .

So my wife gets to talk about what she is feeling... .but also gets directed to ask how I feel listening to that.

The focus is to communicate effectively about emotions... .to increase empathy.

FF

[Ceruleanblue]

To me, MC would be a success if there was any progress. I'm trying diligently to do what MC says to work on, but it's almost like BPDh dislikes being told what to work on, and ramps up those behaviors. The week prior to our vacation, in MC, we were told to "stop with the zingers". Well, BPDh was way worse in regards to that. He's always had huge issues with authority figures too.

I did ask tonight about MC being switched to a different day, but BPDh said he liked getting it all over with in one day, and MC pretty much let BPDh choose. I stated that he has DBT that day, Mondays are typically more busy for him at work, and we have other nights open. It sort of feels like MC doesn't want to cross BPDh either. They have the whole "male camaraderie" thing going on, which doesn't bother me, but he does seem to write off a lot of our issues to gender differences.

MC was saying tonight how even keeled BPDh seems. Whoa! I set him straight on that one. BPDh can and does seem that way to a lot of people, but trust me, he certainly isn't that same guy at home. And once he lets you see he isn't that mellow, calm guy, and he's painted you black(like several past bosses), it's downhill from there. I'm not sure MC really believed me, but I'm hoping he did. BPDh is very, very good at portraying himself as calm, and often the victim, but he's actually neither of those.

[Cat Familiar]

I did MC with my husband for over a year and while it helped our communication a bit, it didn't bring any dramatic changes for the better.

The following year I started individual counseling with the same psychologist and that's been a blessing. I told her my intent was to learn better management strategies for dealing with my husband. She had seen quite a range of behavior of his, so I didn't need to explain anything. She told me that he had a personality disorder and would always be subject to splitting (painting everything black or white).

Between talking with her every couple of weeks and this community, I've learned so much. I really can minimize the damage his emotional outbursts had upon me and now I haven't seen much of that for a long time.

On the other hand, I haven't been able to repair the intimacy we once had, but I think much of that is my choice. Seeing him for who he truly is, rather than the image he tried to present is a turnoff and frankly it's hard for me to want to be more intimate with him.

[sweetheart]

Hello CB you might already have read this but here is a link for you https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=117485.0

MC broadly speaking is not generally indicated for pwBPD/NPD for many of the reasons you outline in your post, but of course it can be beneficial.

Individual therapy for both parties with a T experienced in working with Personality Disorders is in my experience a more positive experience.

There is no way I would consider MC with my dBPDh because I know with the best of intentions it would become a vehicle for blame shifting, splitting and projection. Also I am aware that MC where BPD is in the mix can create an environment that seeks to convince the T that both parties are right or more aggrieved than each other.

Having my own experienced T I believe benefits me way more and my h has his own supportive treatment loosely framed around DBT.

How experienced is the T in working with BPD, what his background, how did you select him?

Are you considering stopping MC?

[formflier]

  Well, BPDh was way worse in regards to that. He's always had huge issues with authority figures too.

How was this addressed in MC?

FF

[married21years]

i think MC has to be done after the pwBPD is in recovery and through 75%

IMHO

sorry

MC just causes issues! for pwBPD

[Cat Familiar]

After I started seeing our MC therapist individually, I frequently spoke about how useful it's been since I grew up in such a dysfunctional home (mother was pwBPD). I said that for those of us with such damaged parents (his father was a NPD on steroids) that it's so helpful to have a therapy session every couple of weeks. (I had done therapy years ago to get over the "mom" issues, and my relationship with my therapist mostly focuses on how to manage HIM, but he doesn't need to know that!)

He has a lot of issues with his sisters, who live on the other coast, and he hasn't been able to resolve how he feels about them for many years. During one of those times when he was upset, I suggested that he see a psychologist who I had spoken with when I was looking for someone for our marriage counseling. I wrote down this man's number and gave it to him.

Was I ever surprised when he called him and made an appointment! He likes this guy and I think it's important to have a male therapist for him, since his father was so awful. So far, so good. And I think I'm starting to see improvements in his mood and coping strategies that weren't there previously in the 11 years we've been together.

So I say from my experience that individual therapy is best for pwBPD. In marriage counseling, he said I was just setting him up to get "beat up" in our joint sessions.

[Ceruleanblue]

I chose this therapist because online it stated that he works with personality disorders. I really like him, but I do feel he thinks a lot of our issues are just communication or male/female issues. I like how positive he is though. I get something out of it, but I do frequently think he doesn't "get" the full extent or picture of what BPDh is like at home(and his issues at past jobs), because he presents as so calm, and zoned out.

I think that I'll start looking for a T for me again, although I've had quite a bit of T over the years. I too feel I really could use a place to vent(in person) to someone who'll understand what it's like to live full time with someone with a PD, and hopefully give me tools to use that apply to our exact situation. Some of the tools here have worked, but we still deal with things, and I'd like to lessen that to some extent. Well, I likely can't lessen it, but I can maybe react differently, or learn to FEEL differently about it.

I think BPDh likes the idea of MC, and actually attending, but I don't think much is being accomplished by it. Just as before when we saw his T together, he picks and chooses what advice he'll take, based on what serves HIM the best. If something takes work, or might be difficult, he'll write that advice off as ridiculous or "that will cause issues". It isn't just him, he's dealing with(meaning I am dealing with it too to some extent) really toxic, controlling, and angry adult kids. Enmeshment, drama triangle, relational aggression, the whole nine. His reaction is to do nothing, keep being treated badly, have zero boundaries, then expect me to ignore it all, or suck up, or be left out.

I'm going to start looking today for a T in my area... .

[sweetheart]

 

[Notwendy]

I think it depends on what your expectations are of MC.

I don't think a counselor can help someone change unless the person is motivated personally. For every behavior- and it doesn't matter whether or not the person has a PD or not- ever single human behavior has a cost and a payoff. For the behavior to continue, the payoff needs to be higher than the cost, even if that cost is high such as in the case of addiction. Often, a person has to "hit bottom" to be motivated to change.

Also, there is no treatment that is 100% effective at improving a condition. Often the possibility of a recovery depends on the severity of the condition. An antibiotic might work well for a throat infection and not work for pneumonia. I think the effectiveness of T depends on the severity of the BPD and the motivation to change. I think it is worth trying because then, at least there is a chance of improvement but one doesn't know for sure if it will work.

For pwBPD the payoff for their behavior may not be the same as ours, which makes their behavior very puzzling to us. They may not be able to control their mental illness, but we have seen for many people with BPD - that they hold it together for acquaintances but are at their worst sometimes with the people who they are most attached to- and vice versa? Why is a lot of reasons.

CB, your H behaves the way he does because it works for him in some way. As long as it keeps working for him, he would not be motivated to change it. The counselor can only be effective for those who want to change.


I begged my H to go to MC for years but he refused. Enabling was a way of life for me. It's how I grew up, and I didn't know any other way to be. Someone with a PD or PD traits would be very comfortable with me. There would be no incentive to change. So what did? I hit bottom. I burned out, both with my parents and also my H. I think my H realized this was it for me because I began to change and establish boundaries. Only then did he agree to MC.

The T focused on me. For my H, it was mostly about showing up. He knew, and still does, that MC is the only thing that gave me hope. I think he thinks that if he at least shows up, I will have some hope. But don't think he accepted a label, read a lot of books ( if you ask him he says he has, but he flipped through the pages). He is Mr Charming in MC. I was mad as a hornet. Why do I get the be "co-dependent" go to groups, get a sponsor, while he didn't do much of anything. He almost never talks in MC and lets the T get on my case.

But over time, I learned that the T knew who she could work with: the one who was hurting, the one who hit bottom, the one who was ready and wanting change so bad because that was the one was motivated. Change had to come from me, because, so long as my behavior was keeping my H comfortable, why should he want to change? Her focus on me also worked on him, he feels safe with her. It is also the only place I can talk about things that are important - like finances, and other issues that trigger my H because she can moderate things so they don't get out of hand. I didn't think it was working, but it was. It just didn't look like it.

CB, I also think individual T will help you. You are hurting and therefore more motivated than your H. Your H is hurting too, but he isn't aware of it because his way of coping is to hurt you. As long as he has a way of coping that works for him, he won't change, but you can.

[Cat Familiar]

I agree, Notwendy, MC is a great place to bring up issues that could trigger a pwBPD. And having a neutral third party was valuable. Now that I think about it, we are able to talk more openly. However, doing MC with him felt like I was trudging through a swamp, when I would have preferred to sprint along a beach.

My husband also felt like he's done so much reading (that he's got everything figured out). He truly has over 1000 books on Buddhism, maybe more.

The other day I mentioned something in my individual therapy about something he had done (regarding doing something nice for someone and being disappointed that he wasn't "appreciated" enough) and my therapist said, "I wish I could give him a book on Buddhism" and we both burst out laughing.

[Ceruleanblue]

Notwendy:

I actually had another therapist tell me he thought he could help "me", but he knew he couldn't help BPDh(who left me shortly after we tried a joint session). At first this T thought I might be BPD, but he came to see I was like a damn bursting, because I'd had two T quit(one went on leave, another took a position somewhere else), and I was at a low point, and wanted to get him up to speed in one session, plus, I was keyed up. I think he came to see that my situation was what was making me this way, and in further sessions, I'd reached some calm. He told me that BPDh had zero respect for me, and was clearly checked out of the relationship, and that proved right because he left me shortly thereafter. We've of course reconciled, but the respect issue is still a factor.

Like you, I feel our MC puts more focus on ME because BPDh does act so mellow and easy going, and zoned out. How do you work with someone who is zoned out most of the session? Sometimes he directly asks BPDh a question, I think just to make sure he's following along. BPDh says very little in our session unless it's to throw me under the bus. I never feel like he's bringing up an issue with any sort of caring or caution for my feelings. I always, always feel like he's trying to smear my character, and get the T to "side" with him. To me, MC is supposed to be about finding ways to live amicably, and lovingly, it shouldn't be about trashing your partner. Sure, sometimes you have to bring up hard subjects, but it can still be done nicely and without harsh blame. That's hard for pwBPD, and even for some people non PD.

I did manage to find a local T today, for me. I'm having one session to check her out, and I'll have to see if she takes my insurance. I even called my insurance, and they are unsure, for some weird reason. I have a good feeling about her, but I for sure want someone who can help ME find ways to be the calm in the storm, for my own sake.

[formflier]

I think it depends on what your expectations are of MC.

Notwendy is right on point with this.

For me... MC was a big part of a total package of help.

We each got to see how our ways of approaching communication (primarily) affected the other.

We have had good sessions... and bad sessions... .but overall... .I'm very glad I did it. 

If you have a partner that shows up... and is making some effort... .then I think I would encourage people to continue.

If a partner is showing up and being argumentative... .or not participating... .I would keep going... .but let the T handle how to participate in session.

I have had several MC Ts tell me that if in their opinion MC needs to be stopped or other things need to happen before MC can go forth... .they would say so.

Basically... my advice would be to follow their professional guidance if MC is "getting somewhere" healthier.

FF