2 months NC ran into an awkward situation

[problemsolver]

So I haven't physically seen or verbally said anything to my BPDex in a few 2 months but today ... I was driving home and I seen her walking on the sidewalk looking at her phone... she glanced up glanced down glanced up glanced down... noticed it was me (I think)... I didn't slow down, I didn't verbally say anything out of the window , I didn't honk the horn, nothing... but after I drove past her she took off running... like wherever she was calmly going before looking at her phone all the sudden became urgent and she literally took off on a dead sprint after I drove past her... .Coincidence perhaps? As many of you on here it didn't end all to well in our ("r/s". I was actually considering breaking NC... in a subtle way as she seemed to be giving me signals through social media and warming up to some sort of contact but now i'm scared hah... .Maybe i'm looking to deeply into this but her awkward reaction kind of makes me feel uneasy , as if I was gonna rip a U turn at 50 mph and chase her down and beg for closure or something weird like that I dunno... .

Thoughts ?

[HappyNihilist]

  It sucks to have to deal with awkward situations like that. It's understandable to be confused, to want to analyze every detail and make some sense of it.

Her suddenly running could be a coincidence, or it could have been a response to seeing you. If she did notice you and then purposefully ran away, then it might be a sign that she was emotionally overwhelmed at the prospect of face-to-face interaction.

It's impossible to know for sure. It's much easier and more helpful to look at how you feel about this.

I was actually considering breaking NC... in a subtle way as she seemed to be giving me signals through social media and warming up to some sort of contact

Were you considering breaking NC in the hopes of rekindling the relationship, or reaching out for friendship, or just looking for closure, or something else? There's no wrong answer. It's fine to want to break NC. I just think it's important to have a clear idea of your emotions, intent, and expectations beforehand.

but now i'm scared hah... .Maybe i'm looking to deeply into this but her awkward reaction kind of makes me feel uneasy

What are you scared and uneasy about, in particular? What does it mean for you if she did notice you and run away from you?

[fromheeltoheal]

As Happy said we can't know what was up with her, but also consider there's a good chance she was ashamed, common for borderlines, and all the tools she's been using to not feel that didn't work when you surprised her, so she fled.  Had you interacted with her that shame might quickly have been projected and you're the scumbag, you have to be, so better you didn't, you don't need to hear that right now.

[problemsolver]

 It sucks to have to deal with awkward situations like that. It's understandable to be confused, to want to analyze every detail and make some sense of it.

Her suddenly running could be a coincidence, or it could have been a response to seeing you. If she did notice you and then purposefully ran away, then it might be a sign that she was emotionally overwhelmed at the prospect of face-to-face interaction.

It's impossible to know for sure. It's much easier and more helpful to look at how you feel about this.

I was actually considering breaking NC... in a subtle way as she seemed to be giving me signals through social media and warming up to some sort of contact

Were you considering breaking NC in the hopes of rekindling the relationship, or reaching out for friendship, or just looking for closure, or something else? There's no wrong answer. It's fine to want to break NC. I just think it's important to have a clear idea of your emotions, intent, and expectations beforehand.

I was hoping to break N/C with the thought of a sense of closure and just curious if there was anything still there if she really ment , some of the mean things she said during our last conversation. Seeing what she's like after emotions have had time too cool off/b]

but now i'm scared hah... .Maybe i'm looking to deeply into this but her awkward reaction kind of makes me feel uneasy

What are you scared and uneasy about, in particular? What does it mean for you if she did notice you and run away from you?

I'm very nervous for a very angry and or scared reception ... she has several stories of people "stalking" her etc etc I'm scared to be perceived as one of those guys in her eyes of course. If she did start running because of me I believe that she was scared of me, or nervous to talk to me I suppose either way actually running away from me makes me feel odd, realistically you would only run from someone if you saw them as a threat or danger, in my opinion... I suppose i'm just sad at the prospect of her seeing me as a threat/b]

Thank you for your response  

[problemsolver]

As Happy said we can't know what was up with her, but also consider there's a good chance she was ashamed, common for borderlines, and all the tools she's been using to not feel that didn't work when you surprised her, so she fled.  Had you interacted with her that shame might quickly have been projected and you're the scumbag, you have to be, so better you didn't, you don't need to hear that right now.

I agree with you thank you for the response , what is the shame related to? Do you mean giving people lack of closure? if you can explain the shame/ guilt factor I would appreciate it.

Thanks for your response 

[SGraham]

As Happy said we can't know what was up with her, but also consider there's a good chance she was ashamed, common for borderlines, and all the tools she's been using to not feel that didn't work when you surprised her, so she fled.  Had you interacted with her that shame might quickly have been projected and you're the scumbag, you have to be, so better you didn't, you don't need to hear that right now.

I agree with you thank you for the response , what is the shame related to? Do you mean giving people lack of closure? if you can explain the shame/ guilt factor I would appreciate it.

Thanks for your response 

I think the shame probably does relate to the lack of closure. I mean i can only guess but i figure that pwBPD probably have some idea when their actions arent acceptable. Like i said this is just a guess Based upon my experiance. My ex just inexplicably dropped contact with me instead of breaking up with me, leading me to believe she probably felt ashamed about it.

I do get how you feel though, the whole running away upon seeing your car seems like something my ex would do. she once ran out of a theatre because she noticed i was sitting at the opposite end.

[fromheeltoheal]

As Happy said we can't know what was up with her, but also consider there's a good chance she was ashamed, common for borderlines, and all the tools she's been using to not feel that didn't work when you surprised her, so she fled.  Had you interacted with her that shame might quickly have been projected and you're the scumbag, you have to be, so better you didn't, you don't need to hear that right now.

I agree with you thank you for the response , what is the shame related to? Do you mean giving people lack of closure? if you can explain the shame/ guilt factor I would appreciate it.

Thanks for your response 

There are folks around here who know the clinical side better than I, but BPD is a shame-based disorder, an internalized critical parent, the result of ineffective mirroring in a borderline's youth.  That's not specific to borderlines by any means, most of us deal with it in differing levels of severity, although when you couple it with an inability to effectively regulate emotions, the behaviors show up as coping tools.  All of that was there long before you met her.

[HappyNihilist]

what is the shame related to? Do you mean giving people lack of closure?

Most people only feel guilt or shame over things that they have done. For instance, if I pocketed a pack of gum at a gas station without paying, I'd feel ashamed and guilty. Those feelings are based on an action I took that was against my values.

But there is also a deeper type of shame - often called "toxic shame." This is in no way restricted to people with PDs. I myself have some toxic shame that I've come a long way with. A lot of "nons" in disordered relationships struggle with it. PsychCentral provides a good overview here - What is Toxic Shame?.

Toxic shame is internalized and pervasive. It affects how people feel about themselves as people - not about specific actions. Just the act of existing is seen as cause for shame!

Toxic shame almost always has its genesis with the person's caregiver(s) - the child grows up feeling unimportant, unaccepted, and/or unloved. This doesn't necessarily mean that the caregiver was abusive or neglectful, although that is the case many times. It could be that the caregiver struggled with toxic shame of their own, and unwittingly passed on those patterns. Maybe they were a single parent who had to work two jobs to stay afloat, so they were "absent" a lot. There are many possible reasons for toxic shame.

BPD is a very shame-based disorder. Borderlines feel that they are inherently worthless and bad, that they are frauds and failures.

It's human nature to develop defense mechanisms against painful thoughts and feelings. One such defense mechanism is projection. With projection, the person denies that they have bad traits and instead attributes those bad traits to other people. Someone who is aggressive might say, "I'm not aggressive by nature. It's other people who are aggressive and provoke me."

Projection plays a big part in BPD pathology. By dumping their bad traits and feelings (all the stuff they feel shameful about) onto another person, the borderline is able to hate those things without hating themselves. It offers some protection from the shame, self-loathing, and vulnerability.

[fromheeltoheal]

And a distinction between guilt and shame that I like is: we feel guilt when we do something bad or wrong, we feel shame when we are bad or wrong.

[apollotech]

I was driving home and I seen her walking on the sidewalk looking at her phone... she glanced up glanced down glanced up glanced down... noticed it was me (I think)... .

Maybe she just got some bad information over her phone, someone rushed to the ER, something like that? Maybe she was just running to her car or house because of possible bad information?

[DearBFF]

I agree with what others have said... .could be a coincidence or she may have been triggered just by seeing you.  (one really can never know with these situations... .just like a pwBPD can look at your face and think you hate them when you were just wondering whether or not you were hungry... .they can not truly be in our heads nor us in theirs)

I've mentioned on the boards that it's like they have this "horrible person log" where they keep track of everything that makes them a horrible person.  In situations where they honestly need not feel bad/guilty/ashamed they seem to be overwhelmed with negative emotions they direct at themselves and it harms their relationships.  For instance BFF had a client, it was multiple clients actually a family.  They had been working with her several months and said they felt like they had won the lottery with her, she was so attentive, always ready to work with them and she had a flexible schedule because she was a stay at home mom.  BFF had talked their daughter into competing and scheduled a training session that week so she would be ready for competition.  As I often did at the time I planned to attend with my daughter, she would bring her daughter as well and they would play together so I could help watch her daughter while she worked.  I arrived on time only to find no one was there, so I called and BFF informed me that it got pushed back because the client had a conflict they just forgot to tell me.  No big deal as my daughter and I could entertain ourselves for an hour until they arrived.  Then the clients showed up an hour later and we waited, and waited... . After about a half hour, I started calling, the clients had already been calling.  No answer, for any of us, even after multiple message.

They began working by themselves thinking she must have gotten held up, after about an hour and a half I reached out to her mother (which I had been talking myself out of for the last hour) since BFF was staying with her at the time I figured she could see what was up.  Her mom was at work, but texted that she would call her son who was home.  She got back to me saying that BFF had woken up, gotten dressed and then at some point fell asleep on the couch (mind you she literally falls asleep instantaneously, especially if she's already overtired and she has epstein barr which causes her to get run down more easily than most even though she keeps going like an energizer bunny the second she stops she's dead to the world).  I told the clients, who said no big deal they would wait, brother said he'd get her up and she'd be on her way.  Another half hour goes by then 45 minutes, then an hour.  It only takes her 20 minutes to get there and I became really worried.  Like texting her mom to see if she was ok, calling places to see if she got in an accident.  Her mom finally gets ahold of brother and apparently he woke her up, went back in his room and she never made it off the couch.

The clients were perturbed to say the least yet understanding as she was truly exhausted and actually sick at the time as well (which is often the case).  After a less than happy phone call the mother said her daughter could not compete without a lesson before to prepare her and I believe another was scheduled, but it never happened for one reason or another.  In the following weeks lessons were attempted to be scheduled with one party or another cancelling and eventually she just stopped taking their calls altogether feeling like she could no longer fit them in her schedule, and embarrassed that she had handled it the way she had.  They spoke with me said they were frustrated but completely understood she was going through a lot with the divorce/etc and had another new job.  They said regardless they wanted to continue with her and asked me to please have her get in touch to schedule a lesson.  She never did, and still never answered any phone calls from them.  Their daughter performed in a choir concert and play that BFF said she would attend and she never showed, and I don't believe they have seen each other since.  The father called me shortly after and asked what was going on with her and said his daughter even reached out and never got responses, they were hurt, but even still trying to hire her back and willing to give her money to keep working with them.  

After this event I even moved 5 minutes from the work location and BFF visited many times, but never stopped in to see them there.  I've even been in the car with her saying, "Hey let's stop by" and I cannot express the look of terror that comes across her face.  She literally looks terrified... .all she has to do is say, "Hi, sorry it took me so long to get in touch.  I was really stressed out at the time all of that happened and I want to apologize for my behavior.  If you are ever looking to work with me again I would be happy to and will not let you down again."  The problem is that she can't say that... .one she is not capable of doing so and two she can't say something like she won't let them down again because she inevitably will.

It's so hard to wrap our heads around what our BPD loved ones do and say because it can seem so foreign to us.  Your ex (if she saw you) probably couldn't look at you let alone say hi, or even raise her hand to wave.  At that moment she may have been engulfed by overwhelming feelings leaving her feeling like she was drowning and had to get away to survive.  It's how I now understand BFF when she pulls away, she literally cannot allow the relationship to continue if there is a possibility of an uncomfortable conversation so she replaces me with new warm bodies that only have fun bubbly getting to know you conversations.  Somehow that is easier for them, yet for me I find the deep stuff much more appealing, comforting and rewarding.  I'd always rather deepen a well that will never run dry than toss a coin in a wishing well that could dry up any second.  Then again, that's just me... . 

Luck and I would feel just like you... .I will also say when I want to reach out I do, I don't deny myself that because I never know if I'll be here tomorrow and if I love her and miss her I say so.  No sense in torturing myself over feeling human.  

[Lostone1314]

had the same happen to me twice both within a few meters of eachother... .we both maintained NC... she didnt flinch... i did however alter my course so as to avoid direct contact... i still feel bitter about her infidelity so nc is best in my case... friendship by her own admission is not an option and i couldnt do it anyway,being friends to a woman i once shared myself with is not possible for me particularly since she is still with my replacement.

i make an effort to avoid places where we used to hangout and any mutual friends... perhaps had she not lacked integrity or empathy things may have been different

[problemsolver]

It's so hard to wrap our heads around what our BPD loved ones do and say because it can seem so foreign to us.  Your ex (if she saw you) probably couldn't look at you let alone say hi, or even raise her hand to wave.  At that moment she may have been engulfed by overwhelming feelings leaving her feeling like she was drowning and had to get away to survive.  It's how I now understand BFF when she pulls away, she literally cannot allow the relationship to continue if there is a possibility of an uncomfortable conversation so she replaces me with new warm bodies that only have fun bubbly getting to know you conversations.  Somehow that is easier for them, yet for me I find the deep stuff much more appealing, comforting and rewarding.  I'd always rather deepen a well that will never run dry than toss a coin in a wishing well that could dry up any second.  Then again, that's just me... . 

Luck and I would feel just like you... .I will also say when I want to reach out I do, I don't deny myself that because I never know if I'll be here tomorrow and if I love her and miss her I say so.  No sense in torturing myself over feeling human.  

I find that story interesting , especially your analysis at the end the piece about only wanting bubbly conversations. I've often thought that it's just much easier for them to speak about bubbly things - favorite color etc with people who really don't know "WHO THEY ARE" just always fun and bubbly things with people who don't know them well (warm new bodies as you put it I suppose) . When an actual adult conversation comes around regarding communication she would always fold, and or ignore it.

Very interesting post thanks

[DearBFF]

problemsolver, you are welcome!  It seems I cannot please BFF with less than bubbly conversation, which is just impossible in the face of a real relationship which experiences highs and lows.  One day they will realize what they crave that feel safe doesn't truly exist.


Lostone1314, I don't know if I would agree that they lack empathy.  I know and have seen that BPDs feel VERY deeply, they just don't show it to 99.9% of people, so it appears that they lack empathy.  Also, imagine you were drowning and you were aware that someone else was in the water near you.  You have no idea if they too are drowning because you are too focused on keeping your own head above water and getting oxygen into your own lungs to check on them.  Either you manage to keep yourself afloat until someone saves you, or you make your way to shore and save yourself.  You are so happy to be no longer drowning that you have completely forgotten about the other person who was in the water near you.  :)id they drown too, were they saved, could you have saved them?  Those are the questions someone with BPD might never ask... .not because they are selfish, but honestly because the second they have gotten to dry land (rescued or saved themselves) they are so overjoyed that emotion bowls them over.  Then within minutes it could be something completely different, their mind/body has raced on right past the information their mind has already forgotten about the other person in the water.

Would anyone say the person drowning was selfish because they did not save the other person in the water?  Of course not because to most people it would be obvious that they were drowning themselves, so they had to see to themselves first before they could help anyone else.  However, in the literal sense we cannot see the person with BPD drowning in their emotions.  Their fighting daily to keep their head above water and waves just keep smacking them in the face, and pushing them back under.  They cannot be expected to be responsible for everyone else's feelings but their own because it is a skill they lack.  They do not see them and ignore them, they generally just don't see them in the first place.  If they do notice them you might be surprised that their overwhelming emotion is usually guilt and sadness because they feel so deeply for the other person, they just don't show it to 99.9% of people so you would never know it.

I saw this interesting quote today and it reminded me of someone with BPD... .

It is by Ms. Neale Hurston an African American author I believe about the civil rights movement, but I have now seen it being applied to the riots over police shootings.  (I don't know if Ms. Hurston would indorse violence as the opposite to silence, but that's besides the point.  I just like the quote... .)

“If you are silent about your pain, they’ll kill you and say you enjoyed it.”

Basically if a BPD person keeps much of their pain inside, how can we know what they truly feel; especially when it relates to how they feel about us.  If they care for us at all, we are both the thing they want most and least all at the same time.  The thing they love and hate.  The thing they want to cherish and destroy.  All of this out of fear when it comes down to it I think... . at least that's my opinion.

“If you are silent about your pain, they'll kill you and say you enjoyed it.”