I have a wife that is either BPD or is very immature

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Hello,

I have a wife who's behaviors fall almost perfectly into the BPD category.  The therapist that we are seeing (I had to take extreme measures to get my wife to see the therapist) thinks that my wife is BPD or is very immature.  I have two boys of 4 and 2 years old.

The therapist suggests for myself setting boundaries like calling the police when she makes suicide threats, leaving the house with the kids for an hour, and letting her leave the country if she tries to blackmail me that way.  The therapist thinks if I do that then this behavior will either stop or my wife will continue to take these crazy actions anyway and then she can be evaluated in an ER.

I have a hard time trusting this therapist on this matter because my wife manipulated her into saying my Asperger's and lack of communication skills was the cause of the problems in the relationship previously.  I had to really forcibly communicate to this therapist what really happened between me and my wife for the therapist to start to see the truth about the lies my wife was saying.

The thing that I am sure the therapist is right about and has assisted me on is to be assertive.  Now that I'm no longer taking blame and have some idea how to handle things, I feel a lot stronger now and am more resistant to my wife's attempts to cause me to imbalance.

A lot of people have told me that I should leave the relationship.  There are a few people (including the therapist) that say that I should stay and try to work this out.

My questions are these right now:

Is this strategy going to work?  Will this damage my kids?  Would my wife be capable of true intimacy and empathy?

[Aaron1979]

Hello,

I have a wife who's behaviors fall almost perfectly into the BPD category.  The therapist that we are seeing (I had to take extreme measures to get my wife to see the therapist) thinks that my wife is BPD or is very immature.  I have two boys of 4 and 2 years old.

The therapist suggests for myself setting boundaries like calling the police when she makes suicide threats, leaving the house with the kids for an hour, and letting her leave the country if she tries to blackmail me that way.  The therapist thinks if I do that then this behavior will either stop or my wife will continue to take these crazy actions anyway and then she can be evaluated in an ER.

I have a hard time trusting this therapist on this matter because my wife manipulated her into saying my Asperger's and lack of communication skills was the cause of the problems in the relationship previously.  I had to really forcibly communicate to this therapist what really happened between me and my wife for the therapist to start to see the truth about the lies my wife was saying.

The thing that I am sure the therapist is right about and has assisted me on is to be assertive.  Now that I'm no longer taking blame and have some idea how to handle things, I feel a lot stronger now and am more resistant to my wife's attempts to cause me to imbalance.

A lot of people have told me that I should leave the relationship.  There are a few people (including the therapist) that say that I should stay and try to work this out.

My questions are these right now:

Is this strategy going to work?  Will this damage my kids?  Would my wife be capable of true intimacy and empathy?

[TheRealJongoBong]

Aaron, so far it sounds like you are doing all of the right things. You realize there is a problem, and you realize the problem is both with your wife and yourself. You are also getting professional help to work on some of the problems. Your therapist's suggestion to set boundaries is a very good one. Without the boundaries in place you will (as you have found out) get sucked into your wife's crazy and it will be worse for the both of you. Reacting to what they perceive is going on will only reinforce their perception, regardless of whether it is true or not. Provided you are the more sane partner (sometimes it's hard to tell  ) you need to keep your part of the relationship in the real world.

Your question "will this work" is difficult to answer. If you've read up on BPD you will find a depressing litany of how it is very difficult for a person with BPD to change, even if they are committed to the process. You can also read that the effects on children with BPD parents can be damaging. That being said there are also stories on how people have overcome their BPD, and how children growing up with a BPD parent turn out just fine. In any case it is likely to be a long process.

How do you fit in this relationship? Quite often men are attracted to the BP because of issues of poor self esteem, codependency, etc. Have you discussed this aspect with your therapist, and have you chosen to work on yourself the 1st priority?

[Lucky Jim]

Hey Aaron, I concur w/Jongo:

How do you fit in this relationship? Quite often men are attracted to the BP because of issues of poor self esteem, codependency, etc. Have you discussed this aspect with your therapist, and have you chosen to work on yourself the 1st priority?

As to whether your strategy is going to work is a tough question when it comes to BPD, which is an incredibly complex disorder, in my view, because so much of it is counter-intuitive.  It seems like you are making progress in terms of boundaries and asserting yourself.  Whether these measure will prove effective is something only time will tell.

One of the best things you can do is listen to your gut feelings.  Most of the time, one has to ignore the red flags in a BPD r/s, but in my view you can find a lot of direction by listening to that quiet voice inside.

LuckyJim

[OnceConfused]

First of all, you need to gather all the information about your wife so you can at least make your own analysis. Therapist often will hesitate to label other, without talking to them first, as mentally ill (that could result in them being sued for libel or slander).

Once you have all the information or the behaviors of your wife WRITTEN down, you can then do your own assessment. You can begin to get some base data from book like:

Stop walking on eggshells.

Google the term Borderline Personality Disorder and begin to explore those web sites for characteristics of BPD to see if your wife might fit them.

My xBPDgf was never formally diagnosed as BPD but based on my T's suggestion that I needed to google the term Borderline Personality Disorder. I used all the information to come up with with own analysis that she was indeed BPD.

Once you know the problem then you can plan your strategy -

if you want to stay then what you should do ... .

if you want to leave then what your exit strategy - children, finance ... .

you need to make sure that if there is away you can notify the immigration that the children must have both parents present when they leave the US. I saw the same process in Argentina where chidlren under 18 must present a court order or letter if they leave Argentina with 1 parent or by themselves.

[Lucky Jim]

my wife is BPD or is very immature.

Could be both.  Those w/BPD are emotional children in an adult's body.  LJ

[Aaron1979]

I have no doubt that setting boundaries with my wife will help both of us.  I see the improvement in her behavior already short term I was just wondering if that alone would do the trick long term.  Does DBT, cognitive therapy have to be enacted on her by the therapist to work?  Or can me enforcing boundaries alone with the therapist dealing with the wife's feelings do the trick.  The therapist's plan so far as she's described to me is for me to set the boundaries and the therapist deals with my wife's emotions.

I've already examined why I chose this woman.  I did it because I wanted to be the hero, the one that could fix her.  I knew she had problems when I married her but I didn't realize it was this severe. 

I know now that when you get someone, they should be your partner.  That person shouldn't idolize me nor should I be a slave to my partner.  When with a partner, there's supposed to be cooperation.  That's not happening here though.   

I fully believe that I'm the sane one here.  She's tried falsely blaming me for things that are not occurring.   

My thinking is that I'm not responsible for her behavior.  I've got to take care of myself because no one else will in my family.  I can't take care of others if I can't do that myself.

I have logged this behavior and my thoughts at work since the end of April and that has helped me immensely.  Before when I tried to journal she would just tear it up.  Going to work for me is vital as it gives me the chance to reflect.  Especially the night shift overtimes when not much is going on.  It gives me the chance to research BPD and her behaviors.

It's hard because sometimes I want to leave and can't stand her.  However, I know that if she can get better that staying with her is the most healthy thing for everyone in my family. 

I can't talk to the therapist about this because she is biased towards staying married no matter what.  However the therapist is the only one who can speak both Japanese and English in my area.  That's the area where I can't quite trust her.

As far as staying or going is I have the words for it now.  I'm not against putting in hard work for a long time to save the relationship.  If there is great danger to my family in remaining within the marriage or it won't work then it's best to make the decision to end it.  I think that "I just don't want to deal with this" or "I don't love her anymore" is not a valid reason to end it.  I know that love can be regained with a lot of work.  A long time ago people used to be forced to marry and in some of those marriages the couple learned to love each other.   

 

[TheRealJongoBong]

I have no doubt that setting boundaries with my wife will help both of us.  I see the improvement in her behavior already short term I was just wondering if that alone would do the trick long term.  Does DBT, cognitive therapy have to be enacted on her by the therapist to work?  Or can me enforcing boundaries alone with the therapist dealing with the wife's feelings do the trick.  The therapist's plan so far as she's described to me is for me to set the boundaries and the therapist deals with my wife's emotions.

Did your wife enter therapy voluntarily? If not, there's very little hope that it will do any good at all. My wife has been in therapy alone and with me multiple times.  She has yet to recognize that the source of her problems are her, it's always "how can I deal with this situation so that I'm not hurt/inconvenienced by it".

I understand your feelings of wanting to work through this, to wanting to help your wife improve. I've done the same thing myself for multiple years. Over these years my wife's core issues have not budged even a little. Every time it looks like she's getting close to recognizing what's happening she drops that avenue of therapy like a hot rock. One night she will be saying "I can see the problem is with me, I can't be blaming you", and the next morning it will me in the ignominious seat of blame once again with her not even remembering the conversation from the night before.

I guess what I'm trying to say is don't lose yourself in this business, and if you stay in make sure your kids get enough therapy to understand it's not them, it's their mother. Learn about yourself because that's the only way you'll ever be free.

[rotiroti]

Did your wife enter therapy voluntarily? If not, there's very little hope that it will do any good at all. My wife has been in therapy alone and with me multiple times.

Jongo is very accurate with the above, if forced into therapy as part of an ultimatum or the sorts, a pwBPD will be able to run circles around the T.

As for setting the boundaries? They're useful tools and you'll see on the staying board that they work time and time again. It takes practice and whether right or wrong, you know that *something* has to change in your dynamic. Why not try it?

I personally agree with your T. If you don't enforce rules and boundaries then anyone (BPD or not) can take advantage of that.

[momtara]

Do you have a personal therapist, or just one for both of you? A personal one may also be helpful in helping you set boundaries with her.

One concern I have is -- when she says she will leave the country, does she threaten to take the kids with her? People have left with their children and it is hard to get them back. Although I know you love her and may not want to take this step, you might want to secretly talk to a lawyer about how to protect your children IF you think there is a chance she may leave someday with the kids. I have known people this has happened to, and they spend years fighting to get their kids back. Better to be prepared before it happens.

She may just be bluffing and threatening all these things, and maybe boundaries will work. I found that when I set boundaries with my ex-husband, he'd find new and different ways to rattle me.

Whether you can save the relationship all depends on how bad she is, whether she can get good therapy that works for her, etc.

I have young children and it's tough to coparent with someone like this, and then if you get divorced you have to share custody and you're not always there to protect the kids. I know you're not at the leaving stage, but it's a good idea to document and be prepared.

Good luck. There have been some who have stayed in the relationship, so it depends on just what she does and how bad things get. I am glad you at least have a counselor to help you.

As for being suspicious of the counselor, yes, a lot of them take a loong time to see what's really going on because pwBPD are so manipulative. That doesn't necessarily mean this one is bad, but you could always look around for one experienced in PD's.

[Aaron1979]

My wife did not enter therapy voluntarily.  I was forced to make an ultimatum and take the kids out for 29 hours because she was damaging everyone in the family with her behavior even though her target was me.  Not to mention she threatened to take the kids to Japan with her and said she bought tickets (which was a lie). 

Her behavior and thinking is known but her core issues are unknown because she says she doesn't remember her childhood.  Even the therapist doesn't know.  All I know is that she said her Dad told her she couldn't keep a husband which information I relayed to the therapist. 

Right now I can see that the therapist is attempting cognitive-behavioral therapy on my wife.  I am dealing with the behaviors successfully.  The therapist is attempting to deal with the thinking without much success so far.  My wife's behaviors has improved considerably since I called 911 from work and continued to administer consequences for her actions.  I called 911 when my wife was exhibiting suicidal behaviors.  My therapist at the time suggested that she just go to urgent care but later changed her mind when my wife continued her suicidal behavior and emotional blackmail (ie "I'll kill myself if you do this", etc.).

The therapist seems to think that my kids don't need therapy which is curious.  My oldest knows there is a problem in the relationship because he'll say "I'm sorry" for no reason.  I respond to him "What did you do?"  He'll say "nothing" and then I'll respond "You're a good boy then."  I am concerned what she is saying to my kids too because oftentimes I have to work.

Every time it looks like she's getting close to recognizing what's happening she drops that avenue of therapy like a hot rock. One night she will be saying "I can see the problem is with me, I can't be blaming you", and the next morning it will me in the ignominious seat of blame once again with her not even remembering the conversation from the night before.

Yes Jongo, that's what my wife is like with the blaming she does.  Sometimes she'll admit responsibility for an action but most of the time she will not.  Her core issues have not been touched as far as I can see.

I was setting boundaries with my wife before the therapist even had any clue as to what was going on.   I continue to do so.  I just wonder if this therapy is going to work.  If the therapy won't work for this situation then it should stop and something else should be tried.  If I don't like something my wife says even as a joke I instruct her to stop.  She becomes resistant sometimes but lately has eventually complied.  She knows this is her last chance.

My mistrust of the therapist is in that she believes that the marriage should be saved no matter what and that this method will work 100%.  If I believe that, I give up control to my wife because there will be less consequences for her actions and what if the method fails?.  My wife is taking her behavior seriously only because I could leave and I know that will last only a little while before she starts again if her thinking doesn't change.  I think the therapist is in error on that point and I strongly disagree with her.  I have not told the therapist that because she is religious.  I chose her because she speaks Japanese and because of the shared goal of preserving the marriage if possible and safe. 

We both go to the same therapist.  I have been talking with my work psychologist (Phd psychology) on the phone and by email from time to time and keeping her updated on what's going on.  She thinks more like me on the marriage issue. 

   

   

[momtara]

Yeah, a therapist for them might not be a bad idea. Although it doesn't seem imperative just yet. Kids do go through a phase when they apologize for everything, although I think with mine it was at 3. Sounds like you have a lot to deal with. Keep up the good work and keep the medical professionals informed, and keep an eye out that she doesn't get a passport to try to leave with them.

[Aaron1979]

Yeah, a therapist for them might not be a bad idea. Although it doesn't seem imperative just yet. Kids do go through a phase when they apologize for everything, although I think with mine it was at 3. Sounds like you have a lot to deal with. Keep up the good work and keep the medical professionals informed, and keep an eye out that she doesn't get a passport to try to leave with them.

What I've said is only a little bit of it.  If only you knew what else she's done these last 6 years.  I only woke up to it because of a certain event that caused me to investigate. 

I really don't know what she's been saying to the kids.  I wish I did.  She sure won't hesitate to use them against me if it protects or benefits her in certain situations.  So far they still give me hugs, say I love you, and miss me when I'm gone.  However, getting them to comply when disciplined is difficult.  I don't know if that's normal at 4 and 2 or not.  I really don't know what a normal family looks like because my parents were the same way as my wife.  Maybe I'm just being paranoid, I don't know.     

If she keeps attacking me like this it will be the end at some point.  I've got to keep my family safe. 

[sinefreq]

Aaron,

     I am sorry that you are going though this. I too have a wife with BPD and am at the point of exhaustion. I have done much reading and even joined in her BDT therapy, but am still worn out. I have learned the most important thing is our own personal health and happiness. I was told from a friend just tonight that, if we are busy with "our" own life we won't have time to worry about "their" life. I find that so inspiring, and am going to take it to heart and apply it in my daily life.

     

     As you said, it is their problem, and we can't be sucked into their craziness, otherwise it will take us down and we will lose focus on our own life. Whatever you choose to do, look in the mirror every morning and smile, know that you are loved and you are all that. You have two wonderful boys that you need to be all you can be to, and you don't have time to be broken down by her problems, even if it is our spouse.

     Wake up each morning, being thankful for the breathe of life, for the smell of coffee, the sight of our kids and the words of your own encouragement. Know that the only thing we can do, is live by example, in hopes that the women we have chose to marry and spend out life with will join us, and the only thing we can control is how we respond to the craziness around us.

    I wish you all the best, and know that you are not alone, there are many of us trying to make the best of a challenging situation. God would not give us more that we can handle...

[Aaron1979]

Here are some journal entries of the last day or so:

8-30-15 

I was in the van with my wife driving home from church at 1145 hours when I asked her “How was church?.”  She said “Good.”  I asked her “Did you talk to anyone at church?  Perhaps Yoko?”  She responded that “yoko has not talked to me in three weeks. I’m not happy with you.  What did you say to them?”  I said “I told them that it may be good to take it easy on my wife.”  Then she said “You don’t understand.  You have Aspberger’s.  You shouldn’t have told them that.”  I won’t go to that church anymore because of you.”  I said “no one is against you.”   She continued to go off about me telling the pastor’s that until we got home.  At 1200 hours we were in the kitchen when I said “If I’m doing wrong then maybe I shouldn’t talk to your friends at all.  Pastor asked me how I was doing.  I will tell the truth and give advice with dealing with you.”  She said “You promised me you wouldn’t talk to them about this.”  I said “I told you before that maybe I can’t keep it, but I’ll try.”  She said “You weren’t trying.”  If you don’t promise that it’s worse for me.”  I said “So you’re saying that if I promise something that it’s better than not promising, even if I break the promise.  I’m trying to understand (attempt at validation).”  She said “You don’t understand me that’s why I told you not to say that.  If you break promise that you made to me that’s bad too.  This is your Asperger’s problem.  "Y" will probably never invite me to her house again.”

I will add that I never told "Y" not to talk to my wife.  Just to be careful what she says to her because there are triggers that set my wife off.   I think Kaori should have talked to Yoko about her problem.  Now she’s refusing to go to church and I will have to go to church with the kids next Sunday by myself and have yet another power struggle with my wife.  What will she do?

What did I do wrong?  These pastor’s are an authority figure and will use authority which my wife has a problem with.  What was wrong with requesting the pastor’s not to engage in conversation too deep with her?       

2245

My wife called me at work around this time and asked me why I didn’t call her.  I told her I had no time to call her due to emergencies at work and it went into overtime.  She said “You should have called me.”  I responded “how could I?”

Then she went off on me about Y not talking to her for three weeks again and how it was all my fault.  I said “Why don’t or didn’t you talk to her?”  She said “I won’t go to church.”  I said “I guarantee you that both Yoko and Hiro love you very much.”  She said “It’s all your fault” repeatedly.  She then said “I’m glad you’re at work.”  I asked “Why.”  She said “Because I’m tired of this.  You hurt me a lot.”  “I’m also not going to the therapist.” 

Then she said “Bye Bye.”  I said “what?”  She said again “Bye Bye.”  Then she said “I want you to hear the words Bye Bye.”  I said “Okay.”  Then she hung up the phone. 

During the phone call I could hear the kids crying in the background.

8-31-15 1445

When I got home at 0400 my wife said “I’m sorry that I called you from work.  I was so sad and I missed you."  When she talked to me last night she didn’t sound sad or like she missed me at all.  She said the opposite.  Another lie trying to cover up what she did last night and her manipulation attempt earlier yesterday. 

Today at 1230 I described in detail to my wife what happened yesterday.  After that she said “I’m hearing that you were too busy to help me.”  I should have said “That is correct.”  I feared another conflict though and said “no, I just had those memories.”  There is no empathy from her at all.  I wonder if she is going back to the therapist or not.

My wife was sweet to me today when I got up at 8:30.  She didn’t bring up yesterday’s issue.  That’s a good thing.  I’m so sad though.  The feeling of not wanting to be with her pops up now and again.  I had it for about two hours.  This time, playing video games didn’t work.  If I have that feeling I believe the corresponding thought is that things are not working.  When my wife said she wouldn’t see the therapist I actually said that I would get a divorce lawyer if she didn’t do that to a coworker.  I thought, “How can she get better if she doesn’t go?” 

1623

Right now I feel so weak where before I felt so strong.  Before I could turn the hurt to controlled anger.  Right now for some reason I can’t do that and when I can it won’t stay.  She’s managed to throw me off balance.

She has done really good the last three weeks until yesterday.

[momtara]

Yes, sometimes it seems things are improving, and then there's a backslide. And then it passes. Do you find that the pattern is changing at all with her?

If she has BPD and fears abandonment, she will do anything to engage you and get your attention. Some of the SET rules here may be helpful in conversation, even though it's difficult to always follow them.

Sounds like you are trying your best. Hang in there.

[Aaron1979]

No, it's still like that.  It's just happening less often at this time.  She'll get better for a while, I'll heal up, and then she'll start doing this.  I just found out from the pastor that Y had indeed talked normally to my wife so she was also lying about Y not talking to her. 

What my wife is trying to do is find out what I said to the pastor.  I'm not telling her that because it's none of her business.  She was talking to me earlier about trusting others more than her, but when she does what she does, it's hard to do that.  She still thinks it's my fault.  I'm doing all I can to protect myself. 

She does fear abandonment and the research I've done points to her having BPD but it's not diagnosed.   

I know there's nothing I can do to change her.  I know that I'm supposed to not take it personal if I want to stay with her.  Hard to do.