How Contentious a Divorce Should I Expect?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I'm planning to file for divorce from my soon-to-be-ex-husband (not diagnosed with BPD - for background please see my thread on "Undecided" https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=281933.0).

How contentious is this going to be?  I know his mom (who I suspect has a pd of her own) has been egging him on to divorce me, I think she cares more about his condo than she does about him.

I thought he was going to sleep on the couch last night; he passed out there as usual.  I woke up around 3 AM to him shoving my dog off the bed and shoving me in the bed while pulling the covers off of me.  I ended up going back down to the couch myself to sleep, and will probably sleep in the guest bedroom going forward at this point.

All I want at this point is to be able to walk away and be free again.  We have one shared bank account and share phone plans (I will get my own phone plan this afternoon).  I don't care about the condo he bought long before he met me.  He makes slightly more money than me, maybe 10-15K more/year.

[Anise]

I'm planning to file for divorce from my soon-to-be-ex-husband (not diagnosed with BPD - for background please see my thread on "Undecided" https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=281933.0).

How contentious is this going to be?  I know his mom (who I suspect has a pd of her own) has been egging him on to divorce me, I think she cares more about his condo than she does about him.

I thought he was going to sleep on the couch last night; he passed out there as usual.  I woke up around 3 AM to him shoving my dog off the bed and shoving me in the bed while pulling the covers off of me.  I ended up going back down to the couch myself to sleep, and will probably sleep in the guest bedroom going forward at this point.

All I want at this point is to be able to walk away and be free again.  We have one shared bank account and share phone plans (I will get my own phone plan this afternoon).  I don't care about the condo he bought long before he met me.  He makes slightly more money than me, maybe 10-15K more/year.

[enlighten me]

Hi Anise

From personal experience my divorce was quite nasty. I had loads of unreasonable requests, broken promises and she went for everything she could get.

My best advice is prepare for the worst. Document all correspondence. Keep all communication to written so theres a record and you cant be accussed of anything. Finally get a good lawyer that is used to high conflict cases.

The fact that your not interested in the condo could work in your favour. By saying that if he doesn't contest the divorce then you will leave the condo out of it he may be more compliant. Especially if his mum is so concerned about the condo. He might see it as a victory and be less inclined to argue. He might be talked into accepting your terms by his mum.

[maxen]

hi Anise. it would be impossible to predict how contentious it would be. some posters here have been put through a living hell, mine was calm by comparison, though my exw was in a new relationship before she bolted and was emotionally occupied otherwise, and my L was cold and was unmoved by any of their gambits. do you have a L?

We have one shared bank account and share phone plans (I will get my own phone plan this afternoon).  I don't care about the condo he bought long before he met me.  He makes slightly more money than me, maybe 10-15K more/year.

in my state, and i think in every state, all money earned as salary during the marriage is marital property. if he has earned more than you, you would be entitled to take half the difference, or more precisely, your right to take half the difference would be an element in your bargaining. so otoh it's good that you have little to divide, otoh you may stand to gain if you have the desire to fight it. is there any fear he might spend out the whole of the bank account?

[Anise]

I don't have a lawyer yet but will have an initial consultation with one tomorrow afternoon.  The firm seems to have a 100% AVVO rating, and I intend on asking if they have experience with high conflict divorces.

On one hand I feel like I deserve something for my wasted precious years of potential fertility, but on the other hand I know that in the big picture, if I want to have a family, the sooner I can put this relationship behind me the better.  I don't need his money or his property.

I don't know that he will spend out the whole of the bank account; if he does I have some money (my bonus from earlier this year that was to go towards a vacation) in a personal account that I can use.  My paycheck goes into a personal acct and then I transfer what doesn't go towards bills/savings/etc from that acct to the shared acct.

It's strange; his mom is urging him to "get out" of the marriage, and he's even been egging me on to file in some of our most recent arguments.  It's almost like he wants me to file for divorce so he can paint himself a martyr to his friends and family.  Although I have to say that "Look at her crazy angry behavior!  And she finally filed for divorce!"  seems like a strange story to want to share.  I suspect after I file that he will come back to say he's sorry and thinks we should give it another go, but I frankly don't have the energy for that.  I've come to know that his stated emotions are really more for him than for me, because he wants me to mirror/reflect those words back to him and he gets disappointed when I tell him that I honestly don't feel love for him anymore.  I'm angry, but I don't feel anything for him anymore.

I'm hoping this is all goes quickly and without a lot of argument but I have a feeling that once the paperwork has been actually filed that things are going to go downhill.  I'm concerned that he won't be happy if I "get away" with just the clothes on my back and my dog at my side (the dog I adopted before I met him).  One of his sensitive buttons is money and from the credit report I know that he completely tanked his credit around the time we got married (just decided to quit paying on a few credit lines).  So we were unable to qualify for a loan if we wanted to get a mortgage together.  But I think if he incurred all that debt before the marriage then it's not my problem.

[enlighten me]

If you work out how much of the money is yours in the joint account then use that as your starting point. Make a list of what you want from the divorce. Money, dog furniture etc.

Ask for exactly what you want and state that if it is agreed to then his pensions and condo are safe as long as the divorce goes through uncontested.

If your demands are small enough he should agree without a problem. Especially if the risk of not doing it is too great. His lawyer would urge him to take it.

Like you say you feel that you deserve something but common sense dictates you want to get out as quick and pain free as possible. This is a great thought process. A lot of the time there is too much emotion involved in divorce which gets in the way of a smooth process.

[SES]

My experience was that she took everything she wanted, despite legal agreement between us.  Enforcing the agreements legally is too costly and futile, compared to what I wanted her to return.  Once she took things out of the house, they were/will never be seen again.  I wish I had been more ruthless in removing things I wanted and needed ... .eg. Personal items belonging to my late dad and late sister left to me in wills.

If he had shoved you when you are sleeping, be wary.  Past behaviour can be a predictor of future behaviour... .My ex started small, but ended up doing bigger things esp when dysregulating... .I no longer live with her, but I'm extremely cautious in any dealings with her.  Bottom line... I am fearful of her.

[maxen]

I intend on asking if they have experience with high conflict divorces.

It's almost like he wants me to file for divorce so he can paint himself a martyr to his friends and family.

not "almost." i don't know him of course, but my exw did the same thing. she started another r/s, moved in what that party, even retained a lawyer but didn't file, even yelling at me the last time i saw her that "i haven't filed for divorce yet!" as if this were a sign of her good will. she went passive and ultimately uncommunicative and guess who was left to pursue the divorce. it's a BPD pattern.

But I think if he incurred all that debt before the marriage then it's not my problem.

i believe that's correct. but what is marital property can get pretty hard to follow, so bring that question to the lawyers.

[livednlearned]

Hi Anise,

I'm sorry you're going through this. Whether we want the divorce or were the ones who received papers, divorce is really painful. A high conflict divorce even more so. Your story about your H passing out, then coming to bed and pushing you out is so similar to how things were in my marriage. I slept in the guest room bedroom for years until I moved out.

It's strange; his mom is urging him to "get out" of the marriage, and he's even been egging me on to file in some of our most recent arguments.  It's almost like he wants me to file for divorce so he can paint himself a martyr to his friends and family.  

Feeling victimized is a way to protect ourselves. People with BPD are a bit clumsier when they do this, ignoring many of the facts of their own behavior (too painful). It's important to recognize because it can play a role in divorce. There may be a big fight, yet he won't behave as though he wants to win. It can be confusing (and expensive).

Bill Eddy (author of Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing a BPD/NPD Spouse) says that there are three types of high-conflict personalities. Those who are generally cooperative, those who are not cooperative, not dangerous, and those who are not cooperative and dangerous. He also says that not all people with BPD are high-conflict personalities (HCPs), although all HCPs have a personality disorder. An HCP is someone who has a PD, has a target of blame (us), and is a persuasive blamer that recruits negative advocates. It's really HCPs who keep this board busy -- your ex might have some qualities of HCP, but if you have a good lawyer and learn ways to minimize the conflict, it doesn't have to be as bad as some of us here have experienced. If you think your H is a high-conflict personality, it's worth reading Eddy's book or visiting his site: www.highconflictinstitute.com.

You might want to also comb through the Lessons at the top of this board to see if there are any resources that seem helpful. I think this is good advice (from the article: High Conflict Family Law Matters and Personality Disorders)

Settling Out of Court.

A case can only be resolved by an agreement or by a trial. To reach an agreement, both parties have to be willing to make compromises. Parties who are rational and reasonable want to end the adversarial process which is both emotionally and financially costly, as quickly as possible, and not prolong it. However, when dealing with a high conflict person, it is often unlikely that a settlement can be reached, or at least, not until there has been a great deal of emotional and financial expense because these individuals are not rational or reasonable.

High conflict people are not good at negotiation because of their all-or-nothing thinking. They will refuse to compromise to avoid feeling abandoned and/or they feel that they are superior and should receive much more than is reasonable. At the same

time, the high conflict person will pressure the other party to give them much more than a court would give them because of the high conflict party’s belief they were abandoned or are superior. When trying to settle with the high conflict person, you may also encounter “oppositional withholding.” In oppositional withholding, if there is something that the other party wants, no matter how small or insignificant, the high conflict person will not agree to let them have it, thereby delaying resolution of the case. At the same time, giving in and making concessions will often not expedite getting the case finalized. Instead, by giving in to the high conflict person’s unreasonable demands, you may have just set a dangerous precedent which will only fuel the high conflict person to make more unreasonable demands. So, while it is tempting to just give in, long term resolution is not reached by this method.

In the event that you are able to reach a settlement out of court, then it is critical that the agreement be written in an enforceable manner and as specific and as detailed as possible. By doing so, you can avoid the high conflict person trying to change or add terms to the agreement and causing delay in getting the order entered. Also, your attorney will need to draft the agreement with the thought that the high conflict person will try and violate the agreed to terms.

Especially the bolded part. Expect your ex to negotiate in all-or-nothing ways, and to start the negotiations with unfair offers. You might want to counter the same, knowing that you have a bottom line. Good (assertive) lawyers will counsel their clients to do some back and forth, and then ultimately encourage them to take the offer that seems most reasonable. You are fortunate that no children are involved -- this is where things get very nasty. And you won't be fighting over the condo, it sounds like. Although if you are entitled to any of it by law, it's a good idea to at least ask for something in the first round because you don't want to show your hand right away. It helps in these divorces to make your soon-to-be-ex feel that he has won so you aren't engaged in conflict until the cows come home.

We're here for you, and understand how difficult this can be. Leaving my marriage was the beginning of an intense (and painful) but ultimately powerful learning process and I eventually met a wonderful guy while out walking our dogs. It can take years to feel like things are back in a better place, but it is possible for things to settle down and feel whole again.

Be kind to yourself as you go through this. Someone has to be looking out for you, so let it be you.  

LnL

[HopefulDad]

There's two kinds of contentious: emotionally and legally.  You have a ton more control of the former than the latter.  To deal with the latter, the less legal issues you have to resolve, the better.

This board is an excellent resource to help you with the emotional part.  So are your family and friends.  Everyone in my life helped build me up when my life seemed a mess, including several faceless posters here.  Your STBX is going to test your patience, try to drag you down, try to make you miserable.  You will grow in strength to handle all of this so it is just a distant nuisance.  You will get to a point where you can manage the emotional part.

The legal part is a different manner.  Your STBX can attempt to use the court system to fight you on everything with child custody, asset division and support being the primary things.  The fewer of these you have to deal with, the less stress you will have.  Honestly, you seem to be in pretty good shape here, assuming I understand your situation correctly... .

- No children.  Personally, custody issues are my most emotionally draining ongoing battle.  I suspect many here would agree.  Be thankful you do not have to deal with this in court.

- Asset division seems straightforward.  The law will pretty much decide how this gets divided.  At worst, the law shows the condo is rightfully his so you move on from that.  If you are concerned about STBX pissing away any liquid assets, talk to your lawyer on freezing accounts and such.  If accounts are in both of your names, pull half of the money out now and put it in a new account in your name only.  Then let your lawyers figure everything out.

- Support is likely nil.  If you both make close to the same salary, propose you each support yourselves.  If he fights that, let your lawyer deal with it.  If he makes slightly more, I doubt he would fight it since he would be the one to pay support.

When compared to other legal situations, you seem to be in pretty good shape.

[ForeverDad]

I don't know that he will spend out the whole of the bank account; if he does I have some money (my bonus from earlier this year that was to go towards a vacation) in a personal account that I can use.  My paycheck goes into a personal acct and then I transfer what doesn't go towards bills/savings/etc from that acct to the shared acct.

Knowing there is real risk of him draining any joint accounts, going forward understand that anything you put in shared accounts can be drained in minutes, never to be seen again.  Sure, ethically and legally half of the contents of joint accounts are probably yours.  But once it's gone you're very unlikely to ever see your portion again.  While you may want to put small token amounts in the shared account going forward to avoid triggering him too much, preserve the majority of your surpluses, you'll surely need it later.  However, once a divorce is filed, that stops.  At the first hearing the judge will rule who pays the mortgage, utilities, etc.  Since he does earn a little more and the major asset is in his name, he ought to be required to make those payments.  He may squeal before the judge but don't be timid and silent, stand up for yourself, respectfully of course.

The judge may also determine who will have residential status of the home at that time.  If you let him have residency/occupancy and you then move out, make sure you're not paying for any of his expenses that you're not benefiting from.

I'm hoping this is all goes quickly and without a lot of argument but I have a feeling that once the paperwork has been actually filed that things are going to go downhill... .  One of his sensitive buttons is money and from the credit report I know that he completely tanked his credit around the time we got married (just decided to quit paying on a few credit lines).  So we were unable to qualify for a loan if we wanted to get a mortgage together.  But I think if he incurred all that debt before the marriage then it's not my problem.

Whew, be glad you didn't get a joint mortgage.  Especially if you're not a co-owner.  It would be horrible to be responsible for the mortgage and yet not even own the house.  Do not sign over any quit claim deeds - anything with financial or legal repercussions - without first getting a legal or financial advice from your lawyer and other professionals you use.

Ponder your Leverage.  He may want you to sign away any marital rights you may have to the marital assets, whatever that may be in your state.  Don't.  Wait.  Usually the financial allocations are finalized near the end of the divorce.  Don't Gift Away any Leverage you may have too soon or else he may have no restraint from obstructing the divorce process.  If you have any financial or legal advantage, use it as the carrot and stick to unwind the marriage with less fuss and pain.

Yes, it almost surely it will be going downhill from here.  So beware of trying to be nice and overly fair and then surprised when the other is the opposite.  Court won't care whether you're stingy, fair, overly-fair or generous.  Same for your stbEx.  If there's no DV or other sort of 'actionable' abuse, court will just stick to its divorce checklist.  Yes, you want to present yourself to the court as a reasonably normal and decent person but don't expect it to gain you much if any credit for better behaviors.  As has been said... .The one behaving poorly seldom gets consequences and the one behaving well seldom gets credit.

We generally can't get Closure (or acknowledged accountability) from the other person, we have to Gift closure to ourselves.

[AlonelyOne]

My divorce has been insane and continuously contentious.

You're lucky, you're a woman, and in most states divorce is one of those rare areas of "female privilege".

I can't even get any of my issues addressed, while constantly having to defend myself from utter BS and lies.