"You were commenting on an email you had not read yet... " says my wife

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Hey... .I've missed you guys... .life has taken some interesting turns... .I'll get all that updated soon.


Anyway... .we are working with a realtor and so far have only communicated through email and phone... .

A couple of days ago... .my wife was worked up about the realtors website... .I honestly didn't understand it... .she was saying crazy stuff about what the realtor "believed" and "wanted her to do"... it all had to do with "only" using this website.

I was trying to be supportive and asked if she was interested in my understanding of why this one particular website was important... .(has to do with how often MLS updates it)

Anyway... .my wife starts going on about how I only care about the realtor... .am defending her... .that I think she (my wife) is wrong... . 

I pull the ejection handle (so to speak) and leave the room... .let the subject rest for a couple days. 

There has been no BPDish weirdness in a while... .honestly can't remember when... .(my guess is 6 weeks or so).

Well... tonight... we are together on couch... talking some light business stuff... .things seem fine. 

If the weirdness wasn't about someone that mattered or we would have to deal with... .I would never have brought it up.

Somehow... .I needed to at least understand the conflict or issue...

So... .I said I didn't understand the "realtor issue" from the other day... .and asked if she would be ok discussing it.  She said yes... .but "temp" spiked... .I bravely pressed on.

She quickly got to her point.

"You were trying to explain to me what she said in an email to me... .that you hadn't even read yet!  "  She got angrier as she said it.

(I had no idea the realtor had emailed my wife... .)  zip... zero... nada...

me:  Help me understand how I could comment on something that we both agree I didn't know existed

her:  Exactly!  You shouldn't have done it... .but you did... .

me:  I'm confused... .

her:  I'm not... .you were jumping in to defend her... and she has a husband that is perfectly capable of doing that for her (I have no idea if this is true... .)

me:  Can we slow down and back up a bit... I'm lost... . 

me:  I don't understand what role you wanted me to play then... .or now.  If you want me to be supportive I can do that... .if you want me to try and problem solve communications with the realtor I can do that... .  but right now... I'm confused.

me:  What role would you like me to play with regards to the realtor...

her:  You can be honest... .

(editors note... .I should have walked away... .trying to make sense out of something that makes no sense... .is a fault of mine)

me:  This is confusing... .how on earth does honesty come into play in this... .

her:  brakes into a rant about pride... .luckily got a clue and walked away.

Came back a couple minutes later... .placed my hand on her and told her my plan was to sort through "realtor issues" and then move onto other more urgent and pressing matters.  That I had a few other important things to discuss this evening when she was ready... and I would be upstairs waiting.

She asked what is was that needed discussing and I said there are important papers we need to look over and talk through... .

Sigh... .

Here is the thing... .I am not proceeding with a move... .contract... any of that... .with "weirdness" involved in the dealing. 

I don't want status quo... .(staying put)... .but it is acceptable (barely). 

Both our plates are full... .lots of stress... .I guess I shouldn't be surprised at stuff popping up like this... .

So... .do I make the offer for her to get a new realtor?  We are under no obligation to this one... .no contract...

Sigh...

More later... when I get time.  Life has been wide open for me... . 

FF

[formflier]

Hey... .I've missed you guys... .life has taken some interesting turns... .I'll get all that updated soon.


Anyway... .we are working with a realtor and so far have only communicated through email and phone... .

A couple of days ago... .my wife was worked up about the realtors website... .I honestly didn't understand it... .she was saying crazy stuff about what the realtor "believed" and "wanted her to do"... it all had to do with "only" using this website.

I was trying to be supportive and asked if she was interested in my understanding of why this one particular website was important... .(has to do with how often MLS updates it)

Anyway... .my wife starts going on about how I only care about the realtor... .am defending her... .that I think she (my wife) is wrong... . 

I pull the ejection handle (so to speak) and leave the room... .let the subject rest for a couple days. 

There has been no BPDish weirdness in a while... .honestly can't remember when... .(my guess is 6 weeks or so).

Well... tonight... we are together on couch... talking some light business stuff... .things seem fine. 

If the weirdness wasn't about someone that mattered or we would have to deal with... .I would never have brought it up.

Somehow... .I needed to at least understand the conflict or issue...

So... .I said I didn't understand the "realtor issue" from the other day... .and asked if she would be ok discussing it.  She said yes... .but "temp" spiked... .I bravely pressed on.

She quickly got to her point.

"You were trying to explain to me what she said in an email to me... .that you hadn't even read yet!  "  She got angrier as she said it.

(I had no idea the realtor had emailed my wife... .)  zip... zero... nada...

me:  Help me understand how I could comment on something that we both agree I didn't know existed

her:  Exactly!  You shouldn't have done it... .but you did... .

me:  I'm confused... .

her:  I'm not... .you were jumping in to defend her... and she has a husband that is perfectly capable of doing that for her (I have no idea if this is true... .)

me:  Can we slow down and back up a bit... I'm lost... . 

me:  I don't understand what role you wanted me to play then... .or now.  If you want me to be supportive I can do that... .if you want me to try and problem solve communications with the realtor I can do that... .  but right now... I'm confused.

me:  What role would you like me to play with regards to the realtor...

her:  You can be honest... .

(editors note... .I should have walked away... .trying to make sense out of something that makes no sense... .is a fault of mine)

me:  This is confusing... .how on earth does honesty come into play in this... .

her:  brakes into a rant about pride... .luckily got a clue and walked away.

Came back a couple minutes later... .placed my hand on her and told her my plan was to sort through "realtor issues" and then move onto other more urgent and pressing matters.  That I had a few other important things to discuss this evening when she was ready... and I would be upstairs waiting.

She asked what is was that needed discussing and I said there are important papers we need to look over and talk through... .

Sigh... .

Here is the thing... .I am not proceeding with a move... .contract... any of that... .with "weirdness" involved in the dealing. 

I don't want status quo... .(staying put)... .but it is acceptable (barely). 

Both our plates are full... .lots of stress... .I guess I shouldn't be surprised at stuff popping up like this... .

So... .do I make the offer for her to get a new realtor?  We are under no obligation to this one... .no contract...

Sigh...

More later... when I get time.  Life has been wide open for me... . 

FF

[KateCat]

Good to see you, formflier.

I don't know about your wife, but with my husband no transaction concerning the house and an outside contractor of any type is complete without an episode such as the one you describe.

Do you know her patterns with realtors well enough to get a sense of whether this will blow over or not?

[formflier]

Do you know her patterns with realtors well enough to get a sense of whether this will blow over or not?

No... .no idea... .this is a new thing.  She is usually very enamored with realtors... because they are the path to the new house... .new life... .whatever


So... .you know me... .trying to find a frame of reference... .and there is none.

My guess is that it has to do with nothing about the realtor... .that was just a vehicle for "it" to come out... .

I feel rusty... .so... she sweetens up... .invites me down for a talk... .(the stuff I wanted to talk about)... .and that went ok.  Then she starts pushing a plan to be in the new house by Thanksgiving... then says she can "make it happen" without me... .since I wouldn't make a commitment to be there by then...

So... she brings up the idea... .I get... .1-2 minutes to consider it before making a commitment that she would "hold me to".  I said it was great goal to work towards... but  no commitment or guarantee... .I had already flubbed some stuff I promised for today... .

Again... rusty... .FF should have exited conversation at "I can do it without you... "

I expressed I would like to do the move as a "we"... .and her response... "then you should have committed to my idea... "

Sigh... .

So... I got my head in the game... just went for an hour walk... .(yep... .it's after midnight)... .and I feel much better... still troubled.

Looks like I'm going to need to get my crap together to deal with this "thing" that is emerging again.

KateCat,

How often do you deal with "it" emerging.  Do you see it coming... .or do you still feel blindsided?

Part of me says this is good... because it represents good periods of time... where I can relax and focus on other stuff... which has been really nice... .

Sigh...

FF

[Jessica84]

I'd feel blindsided by that too. Her responses make no sense. 

Sorry I can't be more helpful... .all I can say is I've missed you and hope the "weirdness" is short-lived!

[babyducks]

Welcome back FF,

it's been my experience that pwBPD and similar disorders relive their original core wound over and over again.   look for it.   see it.   experience it.   and even experience it when it's not actually occurring.

if the original core wound was some serious neglect, anything that has a whiff of neglect about it, or even the potential for neglect creates BPD weirdness.

so if I am 20 minutes late for dinner, that means I founds something or someone else more important,  and the avalanche begins, it also means that tomorrow I will be 25 minutes late for dinner, and the day after that there won't even be dinner.   it can't possibly mean that I was stuck in traffic.

If the original core wound was some one else was loved more than they were... .?

Finding the validation target is always tough.  I would take a guess and say the validation target was when she said you only care about the realtor.    What do you think?

'ducks

[Cole]

I can imagine getting the same from my wife. Any business transaction we have ends with me accused of taking the third party's side over wife's, even if everyone is in agreement and there are no sides to take.

I have mitigated this a little by trying to get my wife to take the lead on such issues. But, there is always the fear of making decisions and of being wrong in the back of any pwBPD's mind, so they defensive very quickly.     

[formflier]

I have mitigated this a little by trying to get my wife to take the lead on such issues. But, there is always the fear of making decisions and of being wrong in the back of any pwBPD's mind, so they defensive very quickly.     

Very similar strategy on my end... .I wish I had never... .ever talked to ... .or been involved with a realtor.  Let her take lead... .and whenever there is a point that my signature is needed... .she can reach out. 

If I am satisfied... .she gets signature.

If not... .no signature.

Pretty simple... .

Sigh... .

FF

[formflier]

 

Ducks,

I'm going to think on this for a while... but I suspect by this train of thought... .that her original core wound is that her mom was obvious about picking her older sister over her.

She also has a twin brother that gets preferential treatment.

My wife is the extra... .she is not needed... .they are very obvious about it... .still... .to this day.

MIL did not know she was having twins until delivery... .my wife was last one out.  The thought goes that they already had a girl and a boy... .what did they need this extra one for... .

The others got cars... .she did not.

Things got taken from her... and her parents "covered up" the wrongdoing of others (older sister).

Thoughts...

FF

[KateCat]

ff, you asked if I see "it" coming, and babyducks has answered so elegantly just for me :

it's been my experience that pwBPD and similar disorders relive their original core wound over and over again.   look for it.   see it.   experience it.   and even experience it when it's not actually occurring.

Radical acceptance for me has been acknowledging that "it" is there, every minute, every day.

It sounds as though you're getting really, really close to understanding your wife's core wound and flawed perception of you: that you do and will choose someone else over her, some way, some time, somehow. (She is likely always thinking, "Wait for it!" ":)etect it!" "Recognize it!"

Such a sad situation for a woman who has a genuinely loyal husband. But I don't think a counselor would want you to continue knocking yourself out trying to change your wife's perceptions. There seems to be almost no verified evidence that these particular types of disorders can be "fixed."

[Rapt Reader]

Wow... .that really is a core wound for your wife, formflier

It's good that you know that about her, and I think it would be wise for you to remember this information every time you interact with her, especially when she starts dysregulating, like now with the Realtor issue... .

I'm thinking that walking away from her when she "accuses" you of siding with or defending the Realtor only adds to her feelings of not being important or mattering to you as much as she should. When she makes an off the wall accusation that you feel is out of the blue, maybe detaching from the accusation mentally (instead of walking away from her) and validating her feelings of being not important would better serve you and your relationship with her.

Maybe using S.E.T. in these instances would detoxify the situation?

S (Support): "Gee, honey, I can see that you are upset by this situation... ."

E (Empathy): "If I felt that my own position or opinion was unimportant, I would be upset, too... ."

T (Truth): "I didn't read the email, but knowing how her website works--and how the Real Estate business works--I was thinking that the idea of just using her website sounded reasonable. How do you look at it?"

Or something like that. Being calm and not riled up by her feelings of being dissed by you (since you already know that being "not important" is a core pain for her), and by being empathetic and compassionate towards her ever-present pain instead (by listening, validating and comforting her), could calm her down and bypass or shorten a dysregulation. Check out this Workshop: How do we become more empathetic to the pwBPD in our life? for GREAT tips on how to do this... .Really 

[KateCat]

Being calm and not riled up by her feelings of being dissed by you (since you already know that being "not important" is a core pain for her), and by being empathetic and compassionate towards her ever-present pain instead (by listening, validating and comforting her), could calm her down and bypass or shorten a dysregulation.

This is so true, Rapt Reader. And formflier is very, very good at this . . . almost always.  I personally thought his ":)isneyland" discussion, which he related here a couple months ago, was one of the more masterful interactions of its type I've ever seen.

(The conversation started out with Mrs. Formflier "wondering" why formflier had seemed less than enthusiastic, years prior, about a trip to Disneyland. In her mind, this must have been because he wanted to stay home to see a particular "other" woman. Slowly and surely, formflier was able to soothe her fears and underline all the ways her presence in his life has enriched it over the years.)

Come to think of it, ff, the new path your life is taking is positive too in that it will allow you to continue to devote this considerable energy to your wife's emotional needs. I'm thinking people on Boards of Directors don't always have the time to work the tools proposed here.

[babyducks]

I'm going to think on this for a while... but I suspect by this train of thought... .that her original core wound is that her mom was obvious about picking her older sister over her.

Interesting FF.

Here is what I see.

If you wife’s core wound is she is “not the important one” she is pretty much always going to hear that, whether you are saying that or not.

It’s her default language.

Somewhere early on in the realtor conversation she heard “you are not the important one”, the realtor is the important one.   I am going to guess this was the validation target.  I am not very good at finding the validation target.   Mostly because it is always way farther upstream than I think it is.   By the time serious dysregulation has started, I know I have missed a couple of opportunities to validate.   

Your wife is now operating out of her default language,  she is re-experiencing her core pain.  which is why the help me understand and I am confused didn't work... .  it's perfectly clear to her and she can't articulate it even a little bit.   It would be like trying to articulate the mechanism on how we tell our lungs to draw breath.   It's probably subconscious at some level.

we all try to operate in some balance between boundaries, and validation and self care and empathetic listening and compassion without enabling and radical acceptance and positive reinforcement.

we all try to be in the middle of all that.   Centered.   So to speak.

Walking out of the room ended the argument, and the potential for escalation.   

and in a way it validated the invalid.  accidently of course.  but a little invalidation goes a long way.

I see the same thing Rapt does

I'm thinking that walking away from her when she "accuses" you of siding with or defending the Realtor only adds to her feelings of not being important or mattering to you as much as she should.

In your wife’s default language it became he took her side and walked out on me, making me (again) not the important one….

Now I get you are a bit rusty and this one caught you by surprise but in the world of good, best, better... .hmmm where did I learn that ?       I am wondering in hindsight is there some place you can look back and say this might have been the spot to try validate?   

I've been reading your posts for a while now, and I think you have identified your wife's core wound.   And I think as KateCat said that is very important.

to understanding your wife's core wound and flawed perception of you:

I have come to understand that when my partner is raging at me or acting BPDish, she isn't so much talking to me as to the person who inflicted the core wound many years ago.   knowing that helps me frame a response that is likely to get me farther into the conversation.

thoughts?   

'ducks

[formflier]

   I am wondering in hindsight is there some place you can look back and say this might have been the spot to try validate?   

Sure thing... .I think a "better" approach would have been to "hear" emotion and realize that "explanations" and emotions rarely mix well.

Do some SE... .and then ask if she is interested in T.  Or depending on how SE goes... .skip it.

If we move forward to a couple days later... when I am trying to talk about it (let's say I already committed my original sin...    )

I would probably be best to skip any defense of myself... .and focus on her... .focus on is he got what she needed... .that I understand her needs with regards to websites... .realtors... .etc etc.

This is the area where I struggle.

Remember... .my wife is high functioning... .and has a pretty good BS meter. 

I think if I said... or inferred that my wife is more important than realtor... .she would "call me on it"... and say I was patronizing her... .or something like that.

So... .somehow... .I need to support her... .make clear to her that she is my focus... .without making it crystal clear.

I'm open to suggestions...

FF

[babyducks]

ahhh the highly sensitive BS meter.  Yeah I know how that works.

I would resort to my favorite BPD counselor, Emily Dickinson.   Who said, 'tell the truth but keep it modest".

I would stick completely to the truth and keep it very low key.   If it I were in your shoes I would try this:

FFWife, the other day when we were talking about starting to house hunt we got off on the wrong foot.   I would like us to be able to work together on our new home.   I would like to go back to the beginning and start again. Can we sit down again and look at realtors and websites?   Let's put it all on the table and see what feels comfortable for both of us?

I think you are right,   skip the defense,  there is nothing down that road but more of the same.   

If she is willing to reopen the topic than I think you are faced with equal amounts of empathic listening and positive reinforcement.

Along the lines of "I see what you mean here, that's an interesting point, what do you think of XYZ?"

And if she isn't ready to reopen the topic I would try a low key, "maybe we can discuss this again some other time"

is this closer to what you are looking for?

[formflier]

 

My wife seems comfortable acting as if things never happened.

I tend to be the one that wants to "resolve" things... ."understand" things... .etc etc.

We are planning on meeting the realtor in a week to look at houses.

We've sent her a list of houses we want to look at... .and there has been some back and forth questions about the market... .and different details.

Note:  The word website has not left my mouth... .and very likely wont.

In last couple days we've done a date night... .and spent some great time together... .no mention of the BPD weirdness.

My "toe in the water moment" was when we were planning the trip I said...

"Hey... .are you ok with me sending the house list to (insert realtor name) and setting up a schedule to look at houses"

She said... "yep... that sounds great... "

My interpretation is that all that drama over websites and whatever the realtor did to offend her is in the past... .or never happened.

Thoughts?

FF

[babyducks]

hey FF thanks for keeping this thread going.  I appreciate it.  I've learned a lot.

My partner would have continued to hold the Realtor in disregard so I was operating from those set of assumptions.

I'm not sure FF, I can only share from my experience.   

It took my partner and I about 6 months of working at it before we were finally able to negotiate a compromise on something.   what I learned during that time really surprised the heck out of me.  I thought I was pretty educated on BPD and how it manifested.   maybe I was but I was certainly missing a lot of other stuff.   I might have been textbook educated but I wasn't very good at seeing my partner fully at a complex person with a lot of nuances.    I think it was maybe  during this point I moved from the drama triangle more into the caring triangle of assertive doing/ caring choice / acceptance & self responsibility.   

it could be that the drama over the website is over.   it sounds like to me the door to the caring choice part of the new triangle is open. 

I think it's a wise choice to not mention the website again.   rehashing past events in order to 'resolve' them has almost never been effective for me.

during that six month period while I was working on negotiation and compromise with my partner, (I didn't tell her that was my goal,... .  I couldn't really articulate it without 20/20 hindsight.)     I did learn how she viewed a difference of opinion.   and very carefully worked at crafting language that helped support her.   once she got more comfortable lowering her guard and appearing more vulnerable she began sharing things from a different perspective, less adversarial and we were able to reach accord.

my partner was very sensitive to something that sounded like it didn't come from my voice but came out of the books or wasn't natural.

the language I used eventually became part of our regular communications pattern.  and it was all about making her feel heard.     a lot of it was echoing back what she had said, asking questions about what it meant, and it finding something of value in what she was telling me, which was frankly easy to do because she is pretty smart.

I think some version of the Realtor issue is going to surface again.  moving is so stressful.   it's bound to kindle a storm of emotions all by itself.   

maybe this resonates with me because we are in the middle of a move and it has been very hard on my partner.   She has done extremely well managing things and I am hoping to avoid any exacerbation of symptoms.  I can tell you I am planning as if there will be.   

my two cents.

'ducks

 

[unicorn2014]

Great post all. I saved off the how do we become more empathetic link but before I can read that I need to talk about how I don't want to be more empathetic so I started my own thread for anyone who might want to discuss that topic. Thanks for the great read!