I am confused

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

It's been over 8 mos since we've broken up. We did not file a formal separation agreement, which is not a requirement in this state for a divorce. 8 months ago he declared he couldn't wait for 6 months to pass to file for a divorce. Which I thought he'd do the very first day of June, when the 6 month term hit.

Two days ago he had emailed me a template of a "mini separation agreement" (which I highly suspect he had put together himself), and asked me to fill it in, notarize and send back to him so "we could move forward with a divorce". The note reads "it was a voluntary separation" (which it was not) and that "there is no hope for reconciliation or saving the marriage".

So I'm puzzled on the following:

- Why does he want the "mini" separation agreement, when it is already time to file straight for a divorce, which we agreed he'd do.

- Even if he thinks the separation step should legally precede a divorce, why is he sending a "mini" form of it? And what is it, at all? I googled for the term "mini separation" but don't really see there is a such a legal form

- Even if he is unaware that we can file for the divorce at this point, why did not he send me a standard legal form that is out there on the court's website (that he had printed out and was filling in yet last year when he first intended to divorce me), but came up with this informal one put together himself and asking me to notarize it, which is not a regular procedure but an unnecessary step here?

So I am confused. I have a light gut feeling its his attempt to trigger me reminding of the divorce and perhaps wanting to see if I ask him to reconsider.

Anyway, do you guys know what the heck the "mini separation" is about?

[still_in_shock]

It's been over 8 mos since we've broken up. We did not file a formal separation agreement, which is not a requirement in this state for a divorce. 8 months ago he declared he couldn't wait for 6 months to pass to file for a divorce. Which I thought he'd do the very first day of June, when the 6 month term hit.

Two days ago he had emailed me a template of a "mini separation agreement" (which I highly suspect he had put together himself), and asked me to fill it in, notarize and send back to him so "we could move forward with a divorce". The note reads "it was a voluntary separation" (which it was not) and that "there is no hope for reconciliation or saving the marriage".

So I'm puzzled on the following:

- Why does he want the "mini" separation agreement, when it is already time to file straight for a divorce, which we agreed he'd do.

- Even if he thinks the separation step should legally precede a divorce, why is he sending a "mini" form of it? And what is it, at all? I googled for the term "mini separation" but don't really see there is a such a legal form

- Even if he is unaware that we can file for the divorce at this point, why did not he send me a standard legal form that is out there on the court's website (that he had printed out and was filling in yet last year when he first intended to divorce me), but came up with this informal one put together himself and asking me to notarize it, which is not a regular procedure but an unnecessary step here?

So I am confused. I have a light gut feeling its his attempt to trigger me reminding of the divorce and perhaps wanting to see if I ask him to reconsider.

Anyway, do you guys know what the heck the "mini separation" is about?

[pallavirajsinghani]

I think that it is just an attempt to further the drama... .and furthering of drama for you means additional pain... .and then perhaps the inevitable divorce will follow anyway.  So this is just prolonging the finality.

Is there a reason why he should file for the divorce and not you?

[maxen]

Hi stillinshock. I've never heard of such a thing. You won't be signing this I'm sure, but do you have a lawyer? You could show it to him/her.

Your gut instinct seems reasonable, that he's trying to elicit a reaction. Perhaps it's abandonment fear too - he can't bring himself to go through with divorce quite so he's trying to interpose a step or, as you think, is hoping you'll ask him to reconsider.

Have you agreed that he will file, because it was a separation you didn't want? I ask because my exw bolted, moved in with someone else, and then didn't file. I didn't want a divorce, but I became the divorcer. There was no other way to go. Are you two in contact at all, apart from this email?

[still_in_shock]

Hi. Yes, the agreement was he files for a divorce in June, 6 months after a physical separation. He emailed 2 days ago. We were NC at all during 8 months. Only once I broke it to tell him he was an ass (I found his correspondence with a girl who he was trashing me to while we were still together), so at one point it all boiled up in me and I texted him to say that. In response he sent me an email in a legal terminology to stop "harassing, stalking and insulting him". Another time, I contacted strictly business regarding health insurance, but he never responded. And three months later, he sent this "mini separation" BS.

I am expecting to hear if pro bono legal services will take my case. I'm paying a lot to he immigration lawyer and want to save on the family lawyer, as it should be simple - we have no kids and no joint assets.

Another thing I've noticed, he seems to have unblocked me on his Instangram page meanwhile. I suspect he is craving my attention now, wanting me to stalk on him, but since I don't really care anymore, he might have tried this nonsense "mini" form.

I first thought saying "let's move straight to divorce", but then decided to just ignore that email of his. If I don't get served by nov, I'll do it myself

Hi stillinshock. I've never heard of such a thing. You won't be signing this I'm sure, but do you have a lawyer? You could show it to him/her.

Your gut instinct seems reasonable, that he's trying to elicit a reaction. Perhaps it's abandonment fear too - he can't bring himself to go through with divorce quite so he's trying to interpose a step or, as you think, is hoping you'll ask him to reconsider.

Have you agreed that he will file, because it was a separation you didn't want? I ask because my exw bolted, moved in with someone else, and then didn't file. I didn't want a divorce, but I became the divorcer. There was no other way to go. Are you two in contact at all, apart from this email?

[still_in_shock]

I thought same - he thinks I'd suffer begging him for mercy against his "no hope for reconciliation" remark. I remember how pleased he was to see me suffering back then, when he announced it originally. So I guess, he craves the repeat pleasure on the same statement. He IS sick in his head.  I feel nothing for him except for a pity.


And yes, the reasons are (1) financial, and (2) to avoid the stress and hassle of dealing with it. It was his idea (out of s blue), which took me 7 months to process. So I want him to clean his own mess, deal with the logistics and fees of the process, and all I do is just sign.

I'm sorting out the legal aspect of the immigration, as a result of his irresponsible and immature behavior, paying tons in attorney fees and spending all of my spare time putting the papers together. Divorce is his idea, I want him deal with it.

I think that it is just an attempt to further the drama... .and furthering of drama for you means additional pain... .and then perhaps the inevitable divorce will follow anyway.  So this is just prolonging the finality.

Is there a reason why he should file for the divorce and not you?

[livednlearned]

Would you be willing to send him a note along the lines of, "Why the separation agreement? We can file for divorce." And then send him the template.

Unless you want to file?

[still_in_shock]

That's what I thought of saying at first. But I want to consult a lawyer what does that mini separation might imply and what my response should be

Would you be willing to send him a note along the lines of, "Why the separation agreement? We can file for divorce." And then send him the template.

Unless you want to file?

[livednlearned]

If he does want to engage you, and see if you would reconsider, where are you at with that?

Do you want the divorce?

[still_in_shock]

I'm 300% sure, he wouldn't want it, he just needs drama.

I would never want to live through the humiliation that I had with him. Thank God, I'm enough healed by now and having a peaceful balanced life, which I would never want to trade back to the rollercoaster craziness again.

If he does want to engage you, and see if you would reconsider, where are you at with that?

Do you want the divorce?

[ForeverDad]

Often partners have been recycled back into the relationship over and over, push-pull, push-pull.  It's not healthy and it's dysfunctional.  When we try to get off the roller coaster you may get extinction bursts, extreme actions to get you to return back to the old normal.  Or we can get painted black permanently in retaliation for abandoning them, even though their behaviors created the situation, or if there are children or other leverage to control, retaliate or punish.

There are general patterns, predictably unpredictable and consistently inconsistent, but there are always additional undercurrents of impulses, perceptions and behaviors so that we have a variety of experiences among our members.

If you have decided it is best to end the relationship, then focus on that future and think twice before changing your mind.  Beware of tactics used to draw you back or to pressure, manipulate or guilt you.  Sometimes you just have to conclude they do something just because they can and they would rather stir the pot than let it go.

[still_in_shock]

Thank you for inputs, everyone. You guys are very helpful.

One question to those who's been through a divorce:

Do you think trying to go through a divorce DIY and contesting is basically doomed for failure?  I don't want (or could) afford spending $300/h on a family attorney here. Our case is relatively simple - short marriage (1.5 yr), no kids, no mutual assets. I do not think I'd be eligible for a spousal support (he doesn't earn much at all), but one thing I want to contest is the health insurance.

I had a great plan of my own before him, but he insisted I give it up and switch to his employer's. So now, divorcing, I am being left uncovered and, in the absence of a full-time job, cannot afford buying the private plan which is 4 times more expensive now, than what I would be paying have I not been persuaded by him to give up what I had.

I don't qualify for pro-bono legal services to advice me on this (as I have intermittent income), but cannot afford a real L either. My immigration lawyer (who does practice family as well), says because how short was the marriage, the changes aren't too high. So I am puzzled whether I should give it a try at all. If I don't, I will be getting out of the marriage with absolutely nothing, after investing/wasting 2 yrs of my potentially reproductive years on him, and being left with null.

Would you recommend trying to contest DIY just for a health insurance?

[ForeverDad]

I believe it is the law in the USA that once divorce is final that the insurance company must be notified, court can't order that law to be sidestepped.  You are given just a few months to find other insurance before being cut off ex's employee insurance.  However, the insurance company must offer you up to 18 months (as I recall, check the COBRA requirements) continuing health insurance.  That's where the good news ends, the employer doesn't offset some of the costs as probably was done for the employee and there can be an extra 2% admin fee.  So you would have to determine whether the full cost insurance for single individual would be cheaper than the private insurance and how much difference in services offered between the plans.

To summarize the above... .During the divorce you can ask the court that he not drop you during the divorce.  Most states have laws anyway that he can't do it before final decree.  You can't force him to keep you on his insurance more than a couple months (COBRA transition offer period) past the date of the final decree.  You can keep it as long as possible then decide whether to take the non-discounted COBRA path.  Could you delay the final decree?  Yes, but don't you just need to keep it to the end of the year?  After that you'd normally have to enroll somewhere, right?  Check COBRA, the divorce may take a couple months anyway and by the time you have to jump to COBRA terms or private insurance, you may already have reached end of year.

[livednlearned]

The conflict with pwBPD is not always the divorce, and going to court -- although that is typically what comes to mind, and it's stressful, no doubt.

The real problem, at least for me, was the compliance with the orders. You never feel done, the conflict continues, even when you feel emotionally healed/balanced/peace of mind, every legal letter, every confusing communication, every trip to court, it just keeps the negativity going. Instead, we could all be focusing on other things in our lives, moving forward finishing school, getting better jobs, saving money.

I think it's safe to imagine the best-case scenario, what it would look like if you won (within reason), and then imagine getting nothing (always possible) or roughly 1/8 of that (not a great outcome).

I looked at court this way -- was even the worst outcome better than doing nothing. If so, I went to court. If there are other solutions that involve you moving ahead in your life, by all means, that is the more productive way to go.

Court was actually a positive experience for me in the sense that I "won" what I went there to get. But it took me four years and money I didn't have. I'll be paying off the debt for years. So I'm saying this as someone who can see the positives of going to court. Even so, if you can avoid resolving your dispute in court, that's the better way to go.

I know you have had some extremely tough health challenges that may make going to court very important. I'm not dissuading you from doing that, only to point out that court is about who loses less, not who wins. It sucks, I wish I wasn't that way.

[still_in_shock]

Hi ForeverDad,

Thanks. I did look into this issue by calling his HR health insurance, and they told me exactly the same - that I can switch to Cobra. But I am sure, Cobra will be even more expensive than the private plan to buy with the state Health Link. I also know that once the divorce is finalized, which I anticipate to be done by end of this year, I'll be automatically cut off of the his plan. My current (immigration) attorney who also knows a thing of the family law, said if she is to work on the case (it was when I first planned to hire her for the divorce matter as well), she'd be requesting the court to have him pay lump sum for the medical coverage for 12 month period. That is, not that I'd be staying tied to his employer plan, which isn't possible after the final decree, but him paying me up front so I can cover myself for one year period.

I think more than anything that happened with him, I regret losing/giving up my awesome health plan that only cost $193/month and covered my serious health condition almost entirely, it was a great plan. Now, for the same plan, I have to pay $550/month, which I cannot afford at this point. I don't have a stable income. I am a contractor.

I believe it is the law in the USA that once divorce is final that the insurance company must be notified, court can't order that law to be sidestepped.  You are given just a few months to find other insurance before being cut off ex's employee insurance.  However, the insurance company must offer you up to 18 months (as I recall, check the COBRA requirements) continuing health insurance.  That's where the good news ends, the employer doesn't offset some of the costs as probably was done for the employee and there can be an extra 2% admin fee.  So you would have to determine whether the full cost insurance for single individual would be cheaper than the private insurance and how much difference in services offered between the plans.

To summarize the above... .During the divorce you can ask the court that he not drop you during the divorce.  Most states have laws anyway that he can't do it before final decree.  You can't force him to keep you on his insurance more than a couple months (COBRA transition offer period) past the date of the final decree.  You can keep it as long as possible then decide whether to take the non-discounted COBRA path.  Could you delay the final decree?  Yes, but don't you just need to keep it to the end of the year?  After that you'd normally have to enroll somewhere, right?  Check COBRA, the divorce may take a couple months anyway and by the time you have to jump to COBRA terms or private insurance, you may already have reached end of year.

[still_in_shock]

Thank you, Livednlearned: I remember you were as helpful when I asked for a similar input before. It just sucks to be used, invested emotionally and physically in him for 2 years and not get anything, but rather lose safety in life. And yes, more than anything, I am terrified of staying medically uncovered from now on. I have to see my docs for the rest of my life pretty regularly, and the costs of healthcare here, especially these professionals, are ridiculously high.

Two things I hope for are (1) for the court to have empathy for my medical case and (2) for the judge to register the fact that I had that medical safety before I married him, but lost it due to his persuasion. And as far as I figured by reading on the family law, upon divorce, parties are entitled to gain back the level of comfort/standard of living they had before/during marriage. Or am I reading it wrong?

So, in theory, I am entitled to get back the medical coverage he made me to give up. That's what I hope for.

The conflict with pwBPD is not always the divorce, and going to court -- although that is typically what comes to mind, and it's stressful, no doubt.

The real problem, at least for me, was the compliance with the orders. You never feel done, the conflict continues, even when you feel emotionally healed/balanced/peace of mind, every legal letter, every confusing communication, every trip to court, it just keeps the negativity going. Instead, we could all be focusing on other things in our lives, moving forward finishing school, getting better jobs, saving money.

I think it's safe to imagine the best-case scenario, what it would look like if you won (within reason), and then imagine getting nothing (always possible) or roughly 1/8 of that (not a great outcome).

I looked at court this way -- was even the worst outcome better than doing nothing. If so, I went to court. If there are other solutions that involve you moving ahead in your life, by all means, that is the more productive way to go.

Court was actually a positive experience for me in the sense that I "won" what I went there to get. But it took me four years and money I didn't have. I'll be paying off the debt for years. So I'm saying this as someone who can see the positives of going to court. Even so, if you can avoid resolving your dispute in court, that's the better way to go.

I know you have had some extremely tough health challenges that may make going to court very important. I'm not dissuading you from doing that, only to point out that court is about who loses less, not who wins. It sucks, I wish I wasn't that way.

[momtara]

I think the mini-separation is a way to keep getting attention, and maybe he is afraid to end it completely and wants to continue the push/pull.

I would ignore it completely. Why give him satisfaction? I've noticed a few scenarios on this board where these folks threaten divorce but keep wanting the other person to file.

As for the insurance, you're not asking for much. I don't know what a judge would say, but if you draw things out, your ex may give something to you just to get you to sign the forms and be done with it. Or maybe not. Maybe you can get a little alimony or a settlement so you can get insurance. Who knows.

[still_in_shock]

My other guess is can it be that he wants to know where I live, as in that made up "mini separation" form that he prepared for me to fill in, notarize and send back to him, he has a line for me to fill in my residential address. Which, of course, I'd never do.

I actually am afraid of him a little bit. When we were dating, he said he loved guns and was collecting them. I never saw any, but I told him it was a serious deal  breaker for me and ask him to get rid of  them all and it was a very firm term of mine before marriage. I said I couldn't marry him if he planned to keep his guns. So he promised to sell those away, which he said he did.

Married, I never saw any guns at home.

Now, seeing how frantic he becomes when dysregulated, I really wouldn't want him to know my address.

And a question, in the divorce papers, do I have to provide my address that he can see?

[still_in_shock]

Thanks for the inspiration, Momtara. I too think I actually ask nothing, not even a spousal support since he day he kicked me out of home. I just want to get back what I once had, until I am able to afford it on my own

I think the mini-separation is a way to keep getting attention, and maybe he is afraid to end it completely and wants to continue the push/pull.

I would ignore it completely. Why give him satisfaction? I've noticed a few scenarios on this board where these folks threaten divorce but keep wanting the other person to file.

As for the insurance, you're not asking for much. I don't know what a judge would say, but if you draw things out, your ex may give something to you just to get you to sign the forms and be done with it. Or maybe not. Maybe you can get a little alimony or a settlement so you can get insurance. Who knows.

[ForeverDad]

Family court does have a provision to keep an address confidential if you have fears of retaliation or endangerment.  In my case, when we separated she listed the name of the women's shelter and its P.O. Box.  Also, if you have a lawyer you can use that address for contact.  Or you can ask the local court what other options might be possible.  Be forewarned that even if the P.O. Box information is supposedly confidential, he could possible still muck around with it.

[livednlearned]

If you do resolve this in court, and it is worth it financially to do so (meaning, the amount you may be awarded is above and beyond your legal fees), then be sure to ask for the judge to order sanctions -- this is what they call it when the other party has to pay your legal fees. In my case, the judge asked my lawyer to submit some kind of affadavit. The amount only covers certain things, so you won't ever get your full amount back.

And this is important -- if you are awarded anything, be sure to think through every possible way you can get him to pay. Because chances are, he won't, hoping that you won't want to pay to go back to court to get him to pay. I had to do this three and sometimes four times before the judge ordered the bailiff to cuff my ex. At which point, N/BPDx was suddenly very motivated to pay.

pwBPD will often push and push and push and push until they finally find the ultimate boundary. It's different for each person, all are unique, just as we are. For my ex, apparently that boundary was the threat of jail. Meanwhile, it is very expensive and exhausting to have to keep returning to court.

My hope for you is that you land an excellent job with amazing benefits, good salary, and interesting work, with good coworkers, and that your health improves, that you expand your circle of support to include loving friends. And that one day you let someone else into your life who deserves someone like you.  

You are clearly a good person with so much to offer, and like many of us, met your ex when you were at your most vulnerable. Whatever you decide to do about court, you're a stronger, wiser person with your whole life ahead of you.

LnL

[still_in_shock]

livednlearned/foreverdad, thank you for the inspiring insights.

I will file for the divorce DIY and claim the health insurance. I am not going to spend on legal fees on this case, as they definitely will outrun the benefit I'd be claiming.

I will be traveling in 2 weeks and be away through end of October. So I thought to serve right before I go, as I know he'll get dysregulated when served. Not because of the abandonment issues, but because I'll be claiming the health insurance, i.e. some financial compensation which he was dreading I'd do and threatened I must not screw him financially as he'll fight me back till the end. So I wanted to serve him and not be around when it happens. We live about a mile apart, and there is a high probability to run into each other. So this was the plan. But then, my family advised to do it after i return so he doesn't mess up something for me while I am away.

So the question is: do you think it is a good idea to serve and be out of the country for 3 weeks? Or shall I better do it when I return and be present here?

One true reason why I want to serve before I go, is the emotional support of my family who I'll be visiting while dissolving the marriage. I think it'd be much easier for me to get over this whole mess while I am with my family overseas. Here, I don't have anyone.

[livednlearned]

So the question is: do you think it is a good idea to serve and be out of the country for 3 weeks? Or shall I better do it when I return and be present here?

One true reason why I want to serve before I go, is the emotional support of my family who I'll be visiting while dissolving the marriage. I think it'd be much easier for me to get over this whole mess while I am with my family overseas. Here, I don't have anyone.

It is hard for family and friends to understand how emotionally and psychologically difficult it is to deal with someone who is BPD. I admire you for recognizing and knowing what you need to take care of yourself, that you want to be near family after you file. Trust yourself, trust your instincts. Your family cares for you, they also cannot fully understand what it's been like for you. My family saw what my ex was doing, but only when N/BPDx began to do the same things to them did they experience the same emotions I was feeling.

I wish it were otherwise, but it's not likely that the mess will be gone when you get back. If things go to court, or there is a mediation/settlement conference, your ex will dysregulate around that time too.

My instincts would be the same as yours -- to seek out loved ones and shore up some strength.

And if you can, do not disclose that you are leaving the country. You don't need him messing with your exit/entry back into the country if there is a way to do so.

[still_in_shock]

This is a great advice, thank you.

So the question is: do you think it is a good idea to serve and be out of the country for 3 weeks? Or shall I better do it when I return and be present here?

One true reason why I want to serve before I go, is the emotional support of my family who I'll be visiting while dissolving the marriage. I think it'd be much easier for me to get over this whole mess while I am with my family overseas. Here, I don't have anyone.

It is hard for family and friends to understand how emotionally and psychologically difficult it is to deal with someone who is BPD. I admire you for recognizing and knowing what you need to take care of yourself, that you want to be near family after you file. Trust yourself, trust your instincts. Your family cares for you, they also cannot fully understand what it's been like for you. My family saw what my ex was doing, but only when N/BPDx began to do the same things to them did they experience the same emotions I was feeling.

I wish it were otherwise, but it's not likely that the mess will be gone when you get back. If things go to court, or there is a mediation/settlement conference, your ex will dysregulate around that time too.

My instincts would be the same as yours -- to seek out loved ones and shore up some strength.

And if you can, do not disclose that you are leaving the country. You don't need him messing with your exit/entry back into the country if there is a way to do so.