Who do they really love?

[thebible]

Do I think that BPDs are capable of "true Love"?  Absolutly not!  Not talking about falling "in love".  I am talking about the 1Corinthians chapter 13 love.  Kindness, no jelousy, patients, not putting themselves ahead of others.  Sacrificial love.  I think it is like someone asking me asking me to speak Chinese.  I have no clue.  I dont think they know ghow to love.

So who does she love?  Great question?  does she even know what love is?

[jodie]

mtn,

I like your explanation, it makes me realize that while I do think my ex loved me, she was more in love with my love for her.  If I was validating her, complimenting her, feeding her ego and bandaging her insecurities then she was loving me.   It was never enough for me to tell her, "sharing this day with you has made it wonderful", I'd have to literally give her a list of just what all her wonderful qualities were.   In the later years of our relationship, it really got on my nerves and sickened me.   Hell, after ten years you still need me to give you a list?  Did you not believe me for the previous nine years for gosh sake?    It was exhausting sometimes.

[dupchek4me]

Proof positive, they only love themselves, but the sad thing is, they can't help it and you can't fix it.

31 years of being with a self-centered, non-caring, manipulative, unpredictable psycho but only in the last 6 months has there been a realization that my BPD/NPD/PPD only "loves" themself.   But, you know what, she really doesn't even love herself thanks to her psycho Mom who made her what she is today IMHO.

[naiveorstupid]

In a recent "discussion" with my uBPDh I told him that I thought he enjoyed being unhappy. Sometimes he will take the things I say to heart and try a little self examining. He bought a book, Addicted to Unhappiness. I have not read the book so I have to rely on his interpretation. (Bear in mind that he is prone to taking things out of context.) His take on the message was that when his mother would rage at him, resulting in his feeling bad, that this was the way his mother wanted him to feel, the way he should feel. That he was making her happy by feeling bad.

Now jump ahead to the present day, my speculations only. When he rages at me, and I feel horrible because of it, is this his way of showing me how much he loves me? His mother loved him and left him feeling totally worthless. Isn't this what love is all about? Destroying others?

No, I do not believe my h loves himself inspite of NP tendencies. Because he cannot love himself, I do not believe he can love anyone else.

[mermaid]

NPDs don't love themselves, either. Their (false) confidence makes them appear to love themselves, but they truly don't, of course.

All PDs loathe themselves (and then take it out on the significant others in their lives).

People who have the capacity to love (and who love themselves) do NOT abuse others. So that eliminates PDs from the equation.

As someone else wrote, I would not treat an enemy how stbx has treated me. They HATE themselves, so hate/abuse others.

In a recent "discussion" with my uBPDh I told him that I thought he enjoyed being unhappy. Sometimes he will take the things I say to heart and try a little self examining. He bought a book, Addicted to Unhappiness. I have not read the book so I have to rely on his interpretation. (Bear in mind that he is prone to taking things out of context.) His take on the message was that when his mother would rage at him, resulting in his feeling bad, that this was the way his mother wanted him to feel, the way he should feel. That he was making her happy by feeling bad.

Now jump ahead to the present day, my speculations only. When he rages at me, and I feel horrible because of it, is this his way of showing me how much he loves me? His mother loved him and left him feeling totally worthless. Isn't this what love is all about? Destroying others?

No, I do not believe my h loves himself inspite of NP tendencies. Because he cannot love himself, I do not believe he can love anyone else.

[flyingsolo]

 My exbp's home is a complete altar to his search for self. He has photos of himself all around his desk, so he can look at himself while he is doing desk work.

He has notes from his mother and son saying "I love you ---" on the doors.

He has his awards and memorabilia all displayed in the living room.

He seems to need a validation around him all of the time, in his search for self.

Everything reinforces him. And yet, I don't think it is working... .

Ironically, he continually displays signs asking for "peace" and describes himself as "brings peace into the room" which, hel-LO, is NOT what he brings.

Just the opposite. But, apparently, he either does not know that, or refuses to acknowledge it.

As a side remark, every note I ever wrote him he immediately threw into the trash.

 

[The_411]

Simple answer ... .no one

Complex answer ... .I think they can love in the present moment but cannot contextualize love over a period of time hence the reason for out of sight out of mind. Whereas we understand love to be about both the negative and positive experience the good and the bad as galvanizing products of a relationship.

Things are going well it's like they can't stand the peace and need to make things go wrong in order to feel on balance. They thrive on the chaos.

My ex told me she felt like an alien. She told me thought she was evil. She told me she thought she was a bad person.

They think they are bad, tainted, evil, corrupt and so when that isn't playing out they need to do something to prove thie feelings are correct so it's a self-fulfilling prophecy but only in reverse.

[discardedboyfriend]

My understanding was that a BPD craves intimacy and I guess love but are terrified of it so reject it? She wants to love you but is terrified of the closeness. Joe

[Mollyd]

craving love isn't loving.

wanting a baby isn't loving a baby.

desiring an ideal one thinks is love isn't love.

love is a complex thing.

when one is missing a consistent sense of self and proportionality, empathy, etc.  is it fair to expect that person to really "love"?

I'm quite sure my BPD mom doesn't "love" me in any sort of normal way, not because of who I am, but because of who she is.  She simply doesn't have the skills.

just thoughts.

molly

[reliving25]

wow i agree with everything you guys are saying... .my ex would behave very childlike and play games such as "if you dont do this i wont do... .fill in the blank"... my therapist says that i was more of a mother to him than a gf and now i see she is so true i would try to calm him down in his rage and i swear i would be talking like a kindergartin teacher yet nothing worked... .he even had dreams that he would be peeing in a urinal and then wet the bed which my pysch says shows he is very toddler like maturity wise... .children do this when they are scared or going through horrible times... .in the relationship i know i wasnt an angel either i yelled back if things got bad i couldnt take him calling me names and i would yell at him to stop or leave... .i used to sit and regret the times i yelled because i know love is what BPD's need more than anything but i see now that no matter how much love i gave him it would have never been enough.

[dusk]

I don't think they can love anyone, really. My H continually told me how smart/successful he was yet, he was trying to convince himself.

His mother made him feel worthless. He was expelled from 2 schools and he said the day he took an IQ test to get into uni, he cried, because he was in the top 2% in intelligence. From then on, it was him trying to convince himself, that he really was a worthwhile person. Someone who truly thinks that does not need the continual validation.

So love is the same. He told me he loved me over and over. He showed it sometimes but other times he hated me with a passion. I was always so baffled. I couldn't understand, until I came here.

But their love is just a 'feeling', not something concrete. It's however he felt at the time. He loves his son now, only because he can 'control' him. Once he starts to think for himself and live his own life, heaven help him. I do not think they know how to love at all.

[Michael Coughlan]

Hi Very confused,  Unfortunately that is a truly honest question that most people in a relationship with a BPD person will eventually ask.  It took me a long time to work that out and the answer lay in understanding BPD.  The more I understood about BPD the more different views I could look at the relationship.  In a way I think many of them act out because that is the life they have become used to, whether that be controlling, manipulationg, mirroring, abusive etc it makes them feel something that we just don't understand.  I personally believe they feel love for their partner but I also think that love fades as other issues become more dominant in their minds.  Their day to day existence is so mentally confusing for them but their are two people in a relationship and one just can not roll over just because the other wants it that way...

The bottom line is - what makes you happy, what is acceptable to you.     

[dupchek4me]

Michael - your statement is so correct: "In a way I think many of them act out because that is the life they have become used to, whether that be controlling, manipulationg, mirroring, abusive etc it makes them feel something that we just don't understand.  I personally believe they feel love for their partner but I also think that love fades as other issues become more dominant in their minds.".

Wow that really hits home with me.

Thanks.

It just amazes me when I read some of these posts.  Its like you can see right into my life.  We all experience some of the same things and feel the same way.  It just makes my jaw drop at times.

[Over The Drama]

dupcheck, I love that about this board, that our bpdfamily write things that we could have written.  It's so healing at times.

I related to what Dusk said:

But their love is just a 'feeling', not something concrete. It's however he felt at the time. He loves his son now, only because he can 'control' him. Once he starts to think for himself and live his own life, heaven help him.

Once my SDthen14 decided to live with us 3 hours away from momster, she was painted black and verbally abused to high heaven.  It was extremely painful for her.  She started to think for herself and was no longer in total control of momster.  Did not mirror 'Jackal' anymore.  The 'motherly love' was simply turned off like a light switch! 

You'd think that if these people cannot even 'love' their own children, how can they have a true, beautiful, meaningful, successful relationship with a partner?  I truly don't think it's possible after seeing what happened to my sweet SD.

[veryconfused]

Michael

I don't doubt that my ex loved me.  Learning about BPD and BPD behaviors has been all consuming and takes some time to process and understand how this played into the relationship.  So, my ex loved me.  But what about when she was leaving?  She told me that I was the love of her life, she had never loved anyone like she loved me, yet... .she knew she had already started making plans to be with a new person/lover, knew she was lying to me, how is it that you treat the love of your life this way?  A self-fulfilling prophecy... .if they can't love themselves, how dare anyone else love them? 

And then projecting that I am harassing her and sending me an email asking me to leave her alone.  Then shows up in my neighborhood once a week.  My therapist gets pissed that I think and wonder what my ex is thinking.  Well, how can I not?  She told me never to walk away, to keep trying no matter what and no matter how hard she pushes away... .but darn, we do have our limits, you know?  So I don't contact her, don't respond to her email, don't respond to her being in my neighborhood... .am I failing her?  Because I do know in my heart that she did love me, wanted us to be friends forever, but she is sick and insane.  I can't live with her illness because she freaks me out and being involved with her in any way would jeopordize my sanity and my family... .but I hate loose ends and I hate that I am unable to find peace with my decision to stay no contact even though she initiated it, insisted on it, yet here she shows herself again... .maybe waiting for me to keep my word, maybe waiting to make verbal accusations at me again... .in anycase... .I'm still searching for my own closure with it all.

[TonyC]

vc... .your last post ... .

the words... the feelings behind them... .

i felt them... .

my ex... .said... .

im never lettting you walk away again... .well i walked... .

[lostme2]

I too do not think they actually know how to love. At the very least they certainally cannot recognize it.

At one of our counselling sessions she told the counsellor 'I remember jumping up & down on my bed as a little girl crying that nobody loves me'.

She made a comment a while after our 10th anniversary 'he really does love me' when we were talking about a 3 diamond anniversary ring I had bought her (1 carot total,  $$$$$ which we didn't have a lot of). And I remember thinking well of course I love you, why would you think otherwise? (can you say another red flag ignored).

Most times going to bed she would always ask "do you still love me?".

And her excuse for having an affair - I didn't feel loved.

After 22 years. Showing time after time that you thought she was wonderful and special and sexy and telling her you loved her.

But she didn't feel loved.

Well ... .I know how she feels now. Paint me black.

So who do they love? No one based in reality. They love some impossible ideal person who will never be found.

I would venture to say she would find some fault in Jesus Christ Himself if she were married to Him - and she wouldn't feel loved either.

[tigertime]

They love some impossible ideal person who will never be found.

I would venture to say she would find some fault in Jesus Christ Himself if she were married to Him - and she wouldn't feel loved either.

LOL

My h can actually verbalise this - that he's looking for the perfect relationship and knows it doesn't exist (of course he says this when we are together which is always a joy!).  He has left more than once and found what to all intents and purposes IS the perfect relationship for him (I even tell him she's perfect for him!) but it never lasts and he wants to come back.  He knows I'm not perfect (and I am quite happy not to be) and everything is OK for a while and then the whole cycle repeats.

Now, after taking him back and trying to understand his deep pain and be reasonable about the devastating effect it is having on others, I still get the message as he was leaving this time that I don't really care about him!  (there really should be a little icon that tears its hair out or a WTH speech bubble!)

It wasn't like this for most of our 20-odd years together but like lost2me there was, looking back, those pesky red flags of needing a lot of affirmation about my love for him.  I think he did love me - quite tenderly at times - but since we entered OZ bigtime, I feel it's more like need than love a lot of the time.

tiger

[Lou12]

Soo true Matt! I think we all need to take something from these words!

What she feels who knows?  But if it doesn't translate into behavior, what difference does it make what she feels? 

[Pretty Woman]

I think it's all in the moment. They love you in THAT moment... .until they find someone else to love. Then they love THAT person.

And when that person screws up... .well they revert back to loving you again... .or someone else.

Love truly is in the moment. That's all it is. It can change from moment to moment, person to person. It's not that one person truly is better than the other... .it's just the "new toy" your ex is interested in playing with at that time... .that's all.

It's hard to wrap our heads around because to a normally functioning person, love is a constant.

My ex told me she loved me so much and would always be in my life. Dropped me, replaced me... .slandered me and has not spoken to me in four months.

That is NOT normal.

You almost have to look at the word love as just a word. Think about a little kid who says, "but I love him. We are going to get married" about their 2nd grade crush.

That is the emotional reality you are dealing with.  They don't possess the capacity for an adult reciprocal relationship.

But you do.

PW

[greenmonkey]

My ex was incapable of an adult relationship, love, give and take, dealing with mine disagreements.

She said to me she loved me like family - to which my response was "do you always treat your family like crap ? " which said it all.

She has a young son, who she only has visitation rights to, and she is incapable of loving him like a mother should - put his needs and requirements first, give the best she could possibly can, give him a hug when he needs it, take an interest his life.

She has so much shame, guilt and she loathes herself - how on earth can you be capable of loving anyone else. I learnt a long long time ago you can't love anyone else until you learn to love yourself first.

It is a very sad disorder that leaves a trail of destruction and hurt because of impulsively and looking for the next shiny toy.