How lies affect your abilty to respect

[unicorn2014]

Cat Familiar, I can tell you today that it doesn't matter what my fiancé can do, I'm pissed at him for lying to me. Even if he didn't lie to me today I'm pissed at him for lying to me in the past. I'm pissed at him for making me look bad in front of other people. That kind of makes appreciating any accomplishments he's made hard.

[waverider]

Cat Familiar, I can tell you today that it doesn't matter what my fiancé can do, I'm pissed at him for lying to me. Even if he didn't lie to me today I'm pissed at him for lying to me in the past. I'm pissed at him for making me look bad in front of other people. That kind of makes appreciating any accomplishments he's made hard.

You are probably pissed because you are pretty sure he is probably going to do it again. That is why overlooking things becomes so hard, as they are rarely one offs and the cycle repeats. It makes you feel like a mug... It disempowers you, which is very invalidating to you. Even if you understand it is the nature of the disorder the consequences can still be hard to live with, and respect can often turn out to be no more than wishful thinking.

How do you separate wishful thinking from deep seated respect? Respect is closely tied to reliability.

[unicorn2014]

Thank you waverider. So that begs the question, is lying part of the disorder? Lying is so horrible because its two fold, its the lying itself, and then confronting the liar which usually ends up in the game of tag you're it referenced to in stop watching on eggshells. How do you deal with the projection when you confront a liar about lying?

[formflier]

Thank you waverider. So that begs the question, is lying part of the disorder?

Sort of... . Things said while dysregulated are most likely going to be a feeling equals fact kinda thing.  Their emotions overwhelm them, and then they claim/state a reality that fits how they feel.

Yes, this is lying.  However, I don't think that the intent is to deceive.  The process that is going on inside them that "created" the lie is not conscious.

So, I would say that in this way that a lie can be part of the disorder.

Not all lies come from the disorder.

How do you deal with the projection when you confront a liar about lying?

Why deal with the projection at all?  Why confront them?  

What would happen if a boundary was used instead of a confrontation.

How have confrontations gone in the past?  What has been achieved?

FF

[unicorn2014]

Formflier, I spoke too hastily. How do you deal with a situation where a person claims they are not lying but the facts do not line up? Obviously confrontation does not work and I'm not recommending that. What do you do when a person claims they're not lying but the facts claim they are?

[Turkish]

Thank you waverider. So that begs the question, is lying part of the disorder? Lying is so horrible because its two fold, its the lying itself, and then confronting the liar which usually ends up in the game of tag you're it referenced to in stop watching on eggshells. How do you deal with the projection when you confront a liar about lying?

In Understanding the Borderline Mother, the author states that to a pwBPD, "lying feels like survival."

If it's survival (I.e., a dysfunctional coping mechanism), then it is something they revert to when feeling threatened. Though of course everyone has lied at some point, and is capable of it in the future, it's when it violates our core values ("I wouldn't lie about xyz", that may elicit our resentment or disrespect. It's an unspoken boundary/value violation.

[unicorn2014]

So, Turkish, what do you do when you resent the wBPD for lying to you, especially when they deny they're lying to you, and then get mad at you for accusing them of being a liar when you did no such thing, but you simply pointed out the facts instead. I was going to say I should start a separate thread, but for me lying is definitely a way to lose respect for someone.

[Turkish]

 You're dealing with a tough situation.

In general? I was tired of being my Ex's Jimny Cricket, so to speak. I shut down. She felt my resentment. Aside from judging her, it was a poor dynamic on both sides. "Running" and resenting isn't a healthy dynamic. It's both sides retreating, in a way.

[unicorn2014]

Thank you Turkish, I think I'll think about it overnight  Your input is always helpful!

[waverider]

When I want to express a feeling often I will use an anology knowing the analogy is not real only a tool to express a feeling... .> "It felt like being punched in the guts'

As pwBPD closely tie facts to feelings, the use of analogies is often not in their tool box. So instead of using an analogy they will make something up and state it as real, not as an analogy. From there it becomes a defensive cover up to justify the lie... digs a bigger hole... .> " I was punched in the guts"... >"seriously he did so there would be no marks"... "you weren't there, what do you know"

Two different ways of expressing how hurt you feel. In the latter backing up the lie starts to become a bigger issue than the original feeling. Self invalidating

I have been trying to teach my wife how to utilize analogies. I actually ask her if she can come up with an analogy to express how she feels, hopefully she may start to make a habit of it instead of the need to make up stories.

[formflier]

Formflier, I spoke too hastily. How do you deal with a situation where a person claims they are not lying but the facts do not line up?

I like to use the analogy of "shining the light".  If you are consistent with shining the light, eventually the truth will come out and be "shown".

Also try to verify the facts independently of the person making the claims.  In the case of filing or not, this should be straightforward.

Obviously confrontation does not work and I'm not recommending that. What do you do when a person claims they're not lying but the facts claim they are?

There is going to be some trial and error involved here.  You have figured out confrontation has not worked, so skip that in the future.

I am a big fan of "help me understand".  I am deliberate about avoiding using the word "why". 

For me, I need help "seeming small", and not being overbearing.  What I thought was "normal" was triggering a defensive reaction in my wife.  I am a big guy 6 ft 2 and around 230 (football lineman frame... .offensive tackle for sports fans out there).  I am also a very direct person (in case you hadn't noticed... .  )

My wife is a tiny person physically and would try to use her words and manner to "match" my size.

It was a bad dynamic.

So, in the context of therapy for our r/s one of my "assignments" was to tone down how I look for information and approach my wife.

"Help me understand (fill in the blank)" came from that.

Many on here have had success with it, some haven't.  Again, trial and error.

How do these ideas sit with you?

FF

[unicorn2014]

FF, In my particular case my fiancé already pushed the issue and I already asked him if there's anything he's withheld from me that could shine light on the case and he's vehemently denied it. He keeps insisting on showing me the papers when he's divorced, that his pride's involved, that he never agreed to show me the papers before the actual divorce. I'm more leaning to taking a break from the relationship if nothing new shows up tomorrow. I've reach the end of my rope. I don't want to be in a relationship with someone who lies to me, who denies it, who tells me about hurt pride when I ask for what I want and then tells me they love me and they care about me and they want the best for me. This is just the last in a string of lies I've caught him in. He of course denies ever lying to me, always backing it up with his point of view. I did place a call into a new counselor, and am waiting to see if she checks out with my insurance and if not I will call another one. I am very sad. This is not what I wanted, and this is unexpected, but I can't continue on like this, it feels fake to me.

[unicorn2014]

Waverider, I guess I don't know if I have that kind of energy. I'm a single parent and I'm not married to my wBPD just engaged and I don't know if I have the energy to sustain that kind of intimate relationship. My pwBPD is significantly older then me and it just doesn't feel right to be in a relationship with such an emotionally immature person. I don't have the energy to always be defending him before other people. I've been down this road before with my first husband and i just don't have the energy to do it again. I feel very sad about this whole affair. I even asked my pwBPD if he knew how important this issue was to me, and he brushed it off saying his pride and integrity were hurt. He caught me saying "I don't care about... ." but you know what? I don't and I'm sick of caring.

[formflier]

Waverider, I guess I don't know if I have that kind of energy. 

A valid question to ask yourself.  "Can I do this?"

For me, once I started using the lessons/tools and seeing that they did make improvements, that provided me hope.

Each situation is different and the relationship dynamics will respond differently to application of the tools.

Some of my wife's behaviors have gotten much better and the ones that haven't, I have a better understanding of why.  I'm able to accept them for what they are.

I would suggest another question.  "Should I do this?"  and also "Where will I direct the energy I am currently putting into this r/s?"

Big life questions.  I hope you can find answers that give you hope. 

 

FF

[ForeverDad]

I recall someone writing here a few years ago a perspective I hadn't noticed before.  I had been posting about boundaries and how they needed to be firm and any 'exceptions' could risk weakening the boundaries.  The insightful comment was that the boundary isn't about the other person, it's about us.

How so?  We may think we have to tell the person what they have to do.  You may get compliance or you may not.  Even if they do it may not change things long term because it or something like it could just happen again and again in the future.  So, instead, view a boundary as Your Boundary.  We often can't change or fix the other, so we have to do the 'changing', that is, we have to see that the boundary is ours and if broached then we are the ones to address it.

So saying, "show me the paperwork" may not be a good long term boundary, it leaves it up to him to delay or fail to comply or who knows how long he could string it out with various stories and excuses.  How about this?  "I will not be in a relationship with someone who is not truthful with me, in this instance, confirming that the person has divorced."  So you see, having paperwork is one step, whether it was filed is another step and whether the divorce is final can be yet another step, but that one boundary covers it all.  Your boundary of what you will or will not do.  The boundary, as was explained back then, is for you.

Does that help?  (I hope I didn't get it wrong back then.)

I thought it interesting that when you investigated there was yet another issue, that he was party to a law suit.  What might affect him financially would affect anyone in a relationship with him.  I am concerned that he's a slick manipulator, like a con man, always having one excuse or another no matter what facts are discovered.  Whether he is or not, I don't know.  But the indicators are there.

[unicorn2014]

Formflier, my fiancé is 4" taller then me and 2lbs heavier. He's very lean now. He was not so when I met him. He slimmed down to be with me.

In terms of the help me understand, I don't want to understand him. A lie is a lie. In terms of filing I just called the county clerk's office again and told them he told me he filed and they told me if he filed it would show up. So that is the situation at hand. Unbelievable.

I like your posts because they make me think, so I wrote down some answers to your questions. As an aside, the first counselor I called could not see me because of my insurance so I'm going to move on to the next. Ironically enough my fiancé offered to pay for my counseling and I said no thank you, that was a conflict of interests, as he was the reason I was going back into therapy.

So the first question, Can I do this? Can I control my temper? My self? Enforce my boundaries? Take care of myself? Stand up for myself? Trust myself? That is what the relationship will require of me. Considering I'm dealing with a man 16 years older and 4 inches taller, you should know that standing up for myself is no easy feat. We won't even touch the huge socioeconomic difference between he and I. I'm having a really hard time enforcing my boundary around filing for divorce.

Should I do this? Well, my fiance has already established relationships with my friends, family, church and community. He and my daughter have an independent relationship. Everywhere I go people ask me where he is. (We're in a LDR for those who don't know my story). I definitely don't have the energy to deal with a break up right now in those circumstances. Those people who know the situation would understand if I broke up with him.

Its not so much that the relationship takes energy but dealing with the aftermath of a breakup will.

Other then that I do not know. I am very hurt and confused and am pushing forward to find a new counselor.

[unicorn2014]

Forever Dad, That lawsuit involved his wife, when I checked the court system last night it was gone. However his divorce still was not there and when I called the county clerk they looked it up and found nothing. I told them he said he filed and they said if he did it would have showed up. So I have a really big problem on my hands. He insists he filed. We even talked about this last night. I can not believe this. I've never dealt with such a bold faced liar in my life and I've dealt with a lot of liars.

I like your idea of a boundary, except I would say "confirms that the person has filed for divorce." I really don't know how to do this. Like I told form flier I really don't have the energy to go through a break up right now. My fiancé is really aggressive and whenever I try to set a boundary with him he goes ballistic. Calls, texts, calls my home phone. Its disastrous. I have however informed my family of the situation so they know I am preparing to take action. It would be a real tragedy if I had to cut him loose as he is really helpful with my daughter. I have a facetime appointment scheduled with him tomorrow morning to discuss this and honestly I don't know what to do. When we talked about it last night he said there was nothing he was withholding, said he filed, said I should take his word, and said his pride was involved. I couldn't believe this. I was so angry. One thing is a problem, I don't currently have a therapist. I wrapped up therapy in August and my therapist felt I was ready to fly on my own. Then this came up last week. This is not good.

[Daniell85]

How is he helping with your daughter when he is lying to and upsetting her mother?

Her primary relationship is with you. Protecting yourself is also protecting her.

[unicorn2014]

How is he helping with your daughter when he is lying to and upsetting her mother?

Her primary relationship is with you. Protecting yourself is also protecting her.

Daniell, he claims he is not lying, so I'm going to work on not getting upset. I'm still planning on having the FaceTime conversation with him tomorrow morning where I will tell him I called the county clerk and asked again if  he had filed for divorce.

Its funny you mention the primary relationship thing because he's attacked me in the past for making her my primary relationship. I don't feel he is a danger to me or her today. That's not the issue here. The issue is he lied to me and the question is how can I move forward with him with this on the table.

[babyducks]

Hi unicorn,

I think its great that you are taking such positive steps to care for yourself.     Pushing forward to find a new counselor is good.   You are using all the resources you can.   I hope you are trying to eat well and get some decent sleep.   Self care during periods of high stress is vital.

So the first question, Can I do this? Can I control my temper? My self? Enforce my boundaries? Take care of myself? Stand up for myself? Trust myself?

All any of us can do is the best we can.    When things get difficult, for me,  it boils down to doing the right thing for the right reason.  So that I can be comfortable with me.   That can be very hard.   It can require a lot of inner strength.   Finding the inner strength, like you mentioned, can be challenging.   

Hang in there.   Don't give up on yourself.   Give yourself credit for all the good effort you have put in.

'ducks

[unicorn2014]

Thank you baby ducks. I let my fiancé know that our problem is interfering with my ability to discipline my daughter and he got the message. I think he thinks that by being nice to me I'll somehow forget about the problem at hand. Nope, that won't work with me. We're going to have that difficult conversation tomorrow morning. I'm pretty sure i'm not going to end the relationship over the divorce not being filed. I'm more thinking now we're going to have a weekly check in until this gets taken care of or until I make a new decision with a new counselor. Right now without a counselor that is the best I can do. I definitely don't want to go through a break up on my own. When I ended my last marriage I did not have a counselor and that was awful. I don't want to do that again.

[formflier]

I'm pretty sure i'm not going to end the relationship over the divorce not being filed. 

Is there some middle ground between the r/s going forward as if nothing happened and "ending it"?

Before you had talked about "taking a break."

What did "taking a break" look like?

I'm not advocating to end the r/s.  This is the staying board and it is obvious that you want to be a stayer.

However, sometimes things get really out of what in a r/s and "taking a step back".  Taking some space.  Things like that will help you get perspective and allow you to think about YOUR values, without your partner's input.

Last point for now.

FOG (Fear, Obligation and Guilt)

Anytime you find yourself making a decision based on one of those      should go off.

Think about what you said about the reason you didn't want to go through a breakup right now.  What would you fiancee do to your phones?

Do you see yourself making decisions based on FOG?

[myself]

Not only did I ultimately have less respect for my fiance when she lied (especially when lies were used to cover other lies, and it was being done deliberately), I felt less respected by her.

[maxsterling]

Formflier, I spoke too hastily. How do you deal with a situation where a person claims they are not lying but the facts do not line up? Obviously confrontation does not work and I'm not recommending that. What do you do when a person claims they're not lying but the facts claim they are?

If you know a person is lying, and the facts lead you to that conclusion, does it really matter if the other person fesses up?  Suppose my partner is cheating on me.  The facts say she is.  She denies or makes excuses.  Would I feel any better if she fessed up?

I certainly know how you feel here.  It's very frustrating to be in this kind of situation when all you need is someone to own up to his/her behavior.  But I am slowly learning that most of my discomfort comes from trying to press the issue and expect a result (an apology). 

[unicorn2014]

Formflier, I have read extensively about FOG in SWOE and the workbook as well as stop caretaking the borderline and get on with your life. I don't think I don't want to take a break from my fiancé because he's going to blow up my phone and i think that would be something to talk about with my next therapist. I've placed calls to two more therapists and am waiting for calls back.

I think I don't want to take a break from my r/s right now because my fiancé is helping me with my daughter and I need his help. Nobody else is doing what he's doing. He stepped into a void in my life. I've been a parent without a partner pretty much from the start. Even when I was married I didn't have a partner as far as a parent was concerned. So I don't think that taking a break from the r/s is the best idea right now considering the struggles I'm having with my daughter and the fact I don't currently have a t.

Oh I should add that my dad definitely reminds me of my fiancé so I probably should start dealing with that on the parent board, because i don't just have one problem person in my life. My issues are far more complex.

I need to say again that everything was fine back in August. My outgoing t didn't think I needed another t. Then I found out my fiancé hadn't filed for divorce. That changed everything. That's what I'm talking to him about tomorrow morning.

My dad asked me why do you care that he didn't file for divorce? I don't really to be honest, I care that he lied to me.

[unicorn2014]

Maxsterling, that's brilliant! I don't really want an apology. I just want my fiancee or is it fiancé? to tell me he lied to me. I don't need him to apologize. He's putting me in the position of having to call the county clerk a liar. Perhaps I can tell him that over FaceTime tomorrow.

My dad asked me a really good question after I explained to him how helpful my fiancé was with my daughter. He asked me why I cared whether my fiancé filed for divorce or not. I told him I didn't really, what I care about is the fact that he told me he did. That is the problem.

Its really hard having this problem when my fiancé is so helpful when it comes to my daughter, and to be honest, he looks out for me too. This is so complicated.

[HappyNihilist]

My dad asked me why do you care that he didn't file for divorce? I don't really to be honest, I care that he lied to me.

This is completely understandable, unicorn. It hurts to be lied to. The two of you have a very close relationship, and this is a sensitive issue, so it hurts even worse. It's natural to feel betrayed, confused, distraught, angry. You have every right to care that he lied to you - you have every right to care that he didn't file for divorce, for that matter.

I personally wouldn't advise trying to make hard relationship decisions right now, given your situation and your commitment to him. You've been hurt deeply. Let yourself feel and process that hurt. Sit with your feelings. You don't have to come to a conclusion about a 3-year relationship overnight.

What are you thinking you might say to him tomorrow?

Oh I should add that my dad definitely reminds me of my fiancé so I probably should start dealing with that on the parent board, because i don't just have one problem person in my life. My issues are far more complex.

It's tough having to deal with two problem people, especially when they're such important people in your life.  I encourage you to explore your relationship with your dad on the Coping and Healing boards. There are lots of people there who understand what it's like to have a disordered parent.

[unicorn2014]

Thank you happy nihilist, I absolutely adore your name! It alone makes me want to find out more about you.

I already told him tonight tomorrows conversation is going to be a check point, that I wasn't expecting to resolve anything. He thinks I'm going to breakup with him.

I'm simply going to state the facts, that I called the county clerk again yesterday and asked them to look up the divorce, they asked for the husband's name, I gave it to them, they told me nothing was there, I told them he said they didn't post and the county clerk said if he filed it would've posted immediately. When he starts talking about his pride and his integrity and his word should be good enough I will simply repeat the facts. I will say I need to know why you haven't filed yet.

My dad reminded me that I said I would give my fiancé until moved out to my state to straighten this out and I'm going to remind me fiance of this. He has a little over a month to file, or tell me why he hasn't. The distance currently is its own boundary. I hope to have a t in place by the time he moves.

I appreciate your support!

[HappyNihilist]

Thank you happy nihilist, I absolutely adore your name! It alone makes me want to find out more about you.

You're welcome, unicorn - and thank you, as well. It's funny... .when I first signed up for this site, in the midst of emotional chaos and feeling completely broken, I was trying to think of a user name that reflected who I really was, at my heart. I felt like all I had left in the world was my (bruised and vulnerable) core self. And I couldn't think of anything that summed up my essence better than 'happy nihilist.'

I already told him tonight tomorrows conversation is going to be a check point, that I wasn't expecting to resolve anything. He thinks I'm going to breakup with him.

I'm simply going to state the facts, that I called the county clerk again yesterday and asked them to look up the divorce, they asked for the husband's name, I gave it to them, they told me nothing was there, I told them he said they didn't post and the county clerk said if he filed it would've posted immediately. When he starts talking about his pride and his integrity and his word should be good enough I will simply repeat the facts. I will say I need to know why you haven't filed yet.

I think this sounds like a good plan. It was very thoughtful and kind of you to soothe his fears by telling him that you're not expecting to resolve anything or break up with him tomorrow. You sound like you want to approach this calmly and neutrally, without judgment, and also express your needs in a clear way.  That's a solid starting point for a productive, open conversation.

What do you think you would do if he tried to hedge and not answer?

[unicorn2014]

Happy nihilist, I'm sure he's going to hedge and get defensive. I think I'm going to simply state the facts. I called the county clerk again yesterday afternoon and asked if you filed and they said you did not and when I told them you said you did they said that if you had it would have shown up immediately. He already knows that I'm seeking out another t to deal with this situation. I guess I could remind him that his not filing is only getting in the way of our relationship, that he knows he can not stay with me again until he files.

I've been giving this a lot of thought and I realize his actions do not reflect on me. That is what has been bothering me about this whole thing, I think I had been taking it personally up until now. I'm not happy about the situation however he is really proving himself with my daughter, church, community and family so its just me that he has the problem with. The big problem is he lied to me. He told me filed and he didn't. I think I'm going to tell him we're going to have a weekly conversation about this until the problem gets solved. I think I will tell him that I will call the county clerk once a week to ask if he's filed yet.  If he has pride or integrity issues that should definitely trigger those because the county clerk is going to get mighty familiar with his name.