"Should I Stay OR Should I Go?"

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

I have reached a watershed moment - it felt appropriate to quote the 1986 Clash song... .

uBPDw is gone for 18 months.  Moved to another state leaving 2 teenage daughters and I alone with little contact.  Voices dismay and deep sadness over daughters' unwillingness to interface w uBPDw in any way.  uBPDw responds to any overtures I make toward healing with sarcasm and bitter venom.  Counseling is definitely not an option for her, either on her own or together, even though daughters and I attend T together regularly.

I felt a sudden assuredness the other day that I would never, ever see a situation arise in which my uBPDw would relent of her separation from our family, and make an honest effort to heal any wounds her sudden departure and lack of contact have brought.  I do not place myself on a pedestal here and look down on my uBPDw.  I am trying to give gravitas(?) to the anguish suffered by my daughters and I over the past year-and-a-half.  All I would want is open-ness to an honest, respectful and frank discussion of what happened, where new personal boundaries are, establish a commitment by all to move forward, and do so.

Then I want the moon after that. 

I have been in touch w Spiritual Director regarding this.  He says prayer and patience are needed.  To look for a sign from Him

Upshot is that this is not a despairing, hopeless, all-is-lost situation.  I firmly believe with a contrite attitude by both of us could result in great things and have told her as much.

Matthew 21:21 comes to mind:  Jesus replied, "Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done.

Am I failing here?  Or is 18 months physically gone from a relationship (and 4+ years emotionally gone) just too long?

Thanks all.  You're awesome!

[Dobzhansky]

I have reached a watershed moment - it felt appropriate to quote the 1986 Clash song... .

uBPDw is gone for 18 months.  Moved to another state leaving 2 teenage daughters and I alone with little contact.  Voices dismay and deep sadness over daughters' unwillingness to interface w uBPDw in any way.  uBPDw responds to any overtures I make toward healing with sarcasm and bitter venom.  Counseling is definitely not an option for her, either on her own or together, even though daughters and I attend T together regularly.

I felt a sudden assuredness the other day that I would never, ever see a situation arise in which my uBPDw would relent of her separation from our family, and make an honest effort to heal any wounds her sudden departure and lack of contact have brought.  I do not place myself on a pedestal here and look down on my uBPDw.  I am trying to give gravitas(?) to the anguish suffered by my daughters and I over the past year-and-a-half.  All I would want is open-ness to an honest, respectful and frank discussion of what happened, where new personal boundaries are, establish a commitment by all to move forward, and do so.

Then I want the moon after that. 

I have been in touch w Spiritual Director regarding this.  He says prayer and patience are needed.  To look for a sign from Him

Upshot is that this is not a despairing, hopeless, all-is-lost situation.  I firmly believe with a contrite attitude by both of us could result in great things and have told her as much.

Matthew 21:21 comes to mind:  Jesus replied, "Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done.

Am I failing here?  Or is 18 months physically gone from a relationship (and 4+ years emotionally gone) just too long?

Thanks all.  You're awesome!

[mrwigand]

I have reached a watershed moment - it felt appropriate to quote the 1986 Clash song... .

uBPDw is gone for 18 months.  Moved to another state leaving 2 teenage daughters and I alone with little contact.  Voices dismay and deep sadness over daughters' unwillingness to interface w uBPDw in any way.  uBPDw responds to any overtures I make toward healing with sarcasm and bitter venom.  Counseling is definitely not an option for her, either on her own or together, even though daughters and I attend T together regularly.

I felt a sudden assuredness the other day that I would never, ever see a situation arise in which my uBPDw would relent of her separation from our family, and make an honest effort to heal any wounds her sudden departure and lack of contact have brought.  I do not place myself on a pedestal here and look down on my uBPDw.  I am trying to give gravitas(?) to the anguish suffered by my daughters and I over the past year-and-a-half.  All I would want is open-ness to an honest, respectful and frank discussion of what happened, where new personal boundaries are, establish a commitment by all to move forward, and do so.

Then I want the moon after that. 

I have been in touch w Spiritual Director regarding this.  He says prayer and patience are needed.  To look for a sign from Him

Upshot is that this is not a despairing, hopeless, all-is-lost situation.  I firmly believe with a contrite attitude by both of us could result in great things and have told her as much.

Matthew 21:21 comes to mind:  Jesus replied, "Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done.

Am I failing here?  Or is 18 months physically gone from a relationship (and 4+ years emotionally gone) just too long?

Thanks all.  You're awesome!

Hey! I'm not exactly sure what the specifics of your situation are, and considering there are children involved I'm sure it's deeply complicated.

I hope for your daughters' sake there is a way for your wife to reestablish some kind of healthy contact. But that's for them.

When it comes to you I would say this: if she's not willing to seek help, then no... .This situation is not going to get better. Religious conviction and sheer will power will not help it. I sincerely hope something can be done to heal the relationship between your wife and your daughters, but when it comes to you, it doesn't seem like she's willing to put in the effort or accept the reality that she needs help of some kind.

18 months physically gone from a relationship as you say is extreme and points to some kind of profound dysfunction or upset. But like you also said, it's been 4 YEARS emotionally gone. You have to ask yourself if that's what you want to have continually because if she won't seek help I doubt this situation will get better.

What are your thoughts? In your heart of hearts?

[Dobzhansky]

Well said.  All of it.  Daughters are on board with anything I want to do, except for jumping back in to my co-dependent role and forgetting all of the progress that has been made.

I outlined something for someone regarding this, and what I have seen reflected by some of the posters here - that if uBPDw had experienced a string of failed relationships throughout her life up to meeting me, it might happen that she would come to realize she and her behavior and outlook play a significant role in relationship difficulties. 

As it is, uBPDw reported long ago I was her first substantial relationship.  She decided to stay in the relationship "because you made me feel safe".  Now 30 years and three kids later, the failure of the relationship is placed squarely in my lap.  She can find no other reason.

One of the difficulties here is there is no stark , utter hatred now that she is 3000 miles away.

If I keep the weekly calls by phone (15 mins tops) only nuts and bolts and focussed on her world, they go great.  Happiness and appreciation all around.  Two weeks ago I used S. E. T. and others to delve more deeply and despair creeped in.  She cried quietly about her estrangement from the girls (they almost never contact and don't pick up when she calls) and at the end came up with: "Maybe we should just do paperwork" (aka divorce/dissolution). 

There have been 6 occasions by her count (many more by mine) where she has used this term as a euphemism for divorce.  She has never outwardly said it.

Let it also be known I have said I will not sign a new mortgage with her, if we ever choose to live together again, unless there is a good deal of counseling.

Hence the current problem.  F. O. G. keeps me from pressing the matter and sending her to divorce.

[formflier]

 

Is there a middle ground?

There is a dynamic that is working for her... .but not for you.

A husband that does his duty and makes the 15 minute call each week, without much fuss.

What would work for you?

If you make sure YOU change the dynamic, it is likely she will change as well.  We can't predict exactly what she will do, but she will likely try to get you back in line.

Stick with what works for you.

Can you go on with your life and do a "test run" of what life without her is like?  You don't need her permission.

FF

[Dobzhansky]

Dynamic TOTALLY works for her.  Had a nice weekly chat last night.  Talked "shop" as we are both teachers.  Segued in to homework question from youngest, which quickly devolved in to

"Why don't you contact me?"

"What's wrong?"

"Why did you change the password on your grade website?"

uBPDw tried to play the victim as I supported youngest with reinforcement for acceptable/useful remarks to uBPDw over the phone.  Youngest hung up on uBPDw when things got too much.  uBPDw tried to reconnect and I ran interference.

uBPDw threatened a court order to gain access to grades website with school district which is silly because she has access through a parent portal.  She just won't go to the trouble to figure it out. 

The dynamic has changed in that we did not travel to her this summer AND will not be traveling to her this Christmas.  She will not come to us, and has been invited to do so.  She won't elaborate.  In addition, my eldest daughter is marrying in Cabo this December.  uBPDw has been assured she is welcome by eldest.  uBPDw has said she is not welcome.

I dutifully call as I truly want to hear her voice and check in w her, but conversations can go south SO FAST.  Should I try LC (Limited Contact)?

[formflier]

Dynamic TOTALLY works for her. 

Does it work for you? 

Really before there can be any more advice or direction given... .there needs to be a clear answer to this and an indication of how "solid" you are with that answer.

I'm pretty sure I know the answer but don't want to assume anything.

FF

[formflier]

uBPDw threatened a court order to gain access to grades website with school district which is silly because she has access through a parent portal.  She just won't go to the trouble to figure it out. 

What did you do when threatened?  If you can get into some detail, that would be good.

FF

[Dobzhansky]

About the court order -

I didn't take her seriously.  For all the times she has raged, I am so used to it its really amazing.  And sad.  I overheard the court order threat while sitting next to youngest while uBPDw raged at youngest.  I encouraged youngest to terminate the call.  When uBPDw called back a few seconds later I answered.  She tried to rage at me when I refused to help her w her problem, and I tried to explain (no chance to S. E. T.) that youngest was only trying to "find out where you (uBPDw) end and she begins."

"So that's it then?  Okay - g'night"  Her words.  I said "I love you" as always.  She did not reciprocate.  End of conversation.  Communication by text has been limited since.  I have offered to help her explore reasons why the girls act the way they do (lack of trust, unresolved anger)... .to help her understand the our current family dynamic with my close exposure to the happenings in the town where we are.

Its like she chooses to ignore the fact she left.  Youngest gave impassioned speech about how painful it was to be around her when she doesn't act like a mom.  i have read sometimes if an upwBPD is in danger of losing an important relationship it can spur the individual to seek help.

In the meantime girls and I are working toward an understanding of how forgiveness and trust are two separate things.

[Dobzhansky]

As far as the dynamic working for me -

Not really.  I am tired and look forward to "moving on".  I am not interested in a new relationship, and indeed have been looking in to some exciting possibilities for life after retirement.

uBPDw seems to be looking toward the date when she and I said we would be moving to where she is now (I guess she went two years early?).  I have made clear I am not coming if things not resolved to a point with counseling, etc.  Otherwise no deal.  Will definitely not be signing a new mortgage.

I also imagine she will be able to be knocked off this course by enough perturbations by me.  If I fail to fulfill expectations enough, I am sure she will bail.

I have tried to imagine what it would be like if she were truly gone from our lives.

[formflier]

I also imagine she will be able to be knocked off this course by enough perturbations by me.  If I fail to fulfill expectations enough, I am sure she will bail.

[/quote

Change this to "the dynamic will change"  She may leave the r/s... .or she may come back.

But as long as the "situation" works for her (in her mind)... .change is unlikely.

FF