Well...it's better than nothing

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I'm wondering what (if anything) an appropriate response is when this is said to you (in this case me)

Wife had a bad day yesterday.  I tried hugs (she pushed me away), validation, asking about feelings, bringing in the glass of water... .

Well, at some point I hear her in the kitchen lecturing the kids about how nothing gets done... ."he" won't do anything... .wouldn't it be nice if the hot water was fixed "in the near future".  Something went south with a kitchen faucet... .about 1/4 hot water pressure.

I walk into the room, looked her in the eyes and calmly asked.  "Would you like me to work on the hot water right now"

There was an uncomfortable... .long pause... .kids looking and then she says "Well... .it's better than nothing... ." and stomps out of the room.

Only turning point I saw after this is that the muttering stopped. 

So, I spent an hour or so messing around and troubleshooting this faucet.  Had planned on doing it on Monday so tech support/warranty parts was open. 

Anyway, water flow is much better and I have some parts to order today.

Later she blows into the room that I am in (blowing in is slightly less than a stomp... ) and asks in a kind voice.  "So... .what was it... " 

I told her I troubleshot, cleaned it out and it was working better and had parts to order.

She says... ."Huh... ."  twirls and walks out.

Part of me said I should have ignored the faucet until asked respectfully and that she directly answered the question.  Or she could call a plumber.

I felt I was trying to do something kind and demonstrate good behavior to the kids.

Thoughts?

FF

[formflier]

I'm wondering what (if anything) an appropriate response is when this is said to you (in this case me)

Wife had a bad day yesterday.  I tried hugs (she pushed me away), validation, asking about feelings, bringing in the glass of water... .

Well, at some point I hear her in the kitchen lecturing the kids about how nothing gets done... ."he" won't do anything... .wouldn't it be nice if the hot water was fixed "in the near future".  Something went south with a kitchen faucet... .about 1/4 hot water pressure.

I walk into the room, looked her in the eyes and calmly asked.  "Would you like me to work on the hot water right now"

There was an uncomfortable... .long pause... .kids looking and then she says "Well... .it's better than nothing... ." and stomps out of the room.

Only turning point I saw after this is that the muttering stopped. 

So, I spent an hour or so messing around and troubleshooting this faucet.  Had planned on doing it on Monday so tech support/warranty parts was open. 

Anyway, water flow is much better and I have some parts to order today.

Later she blows into the room that I am in (blowing in is slightly less than a stomp... ) and asks in a kind voice.  "So... .what was it... " 

I told her I troubleshot, cleaned it out and it was working better and had parts to order.

She says... ."Huh... ."  twirls and walks out.

Part of me said I should have ignored the faucet until asked respectfully and that she directly answered the question.  Or she could call a plumber.

I felt I was trying to do something kind and demonstrate good behavior to the kids.

Thoughts?

FF

[Daniell85]

My first thought was "parental alienation".

She was behaving badly by trying to triangulate you against your kids. I have been there, and finally as a result, my college age son has cut me out of his life. It's gut wrenched me like nothing else ever has.

So, if you felt  a hint of that, I frankly think you acted appropriately to step in and gently confront her behavior in front of the kids.

Protect your children where you can. Protect your relationship with them.

[sweetheart]

Hi ff,

Fixing the tap and ignoring all the other stuff is absolutely the right thing to do. You and your family are going through some major life changing upheaval at the moment and do you think it would be fair to suggest that as the non here just stepping up and bypassing all but full on dysregulated behaviours at the moment is probably the way to go?

Your wife is likely to manifest this current  inner emotional upset in an external way as you know and I'm sure you will see more of this... .but perhaps not engaging in it or analysing it too much will be helpful for all of you at the moment.

[Notwendy]

FF, all I can do is reassure you that, if your kids are sharp cookies, and I believe they are, they will see through this.

From our perspective, we felt that our father was no less than heroic in what he did for our BPD mother, and if not for him, I don't think we'd be who we were.

However, our mom would triangulate constantly- he was the bad guy, she was the victim. "Your father did this, did that, failed to do this, failed to do that... ." and so on. Yet it was Dad who went to work every day, took us out on weekends to parks, drove us to school, helped with homework. Mom was, well doing what mom did. Although it became clearer later that my father's co-dependency played a role in their dysfunction, we could see quite clearly that Dad was not doing what Mom was saying he did.

Triangulating is what mom does, because is it an immature form of stablizing a relationship. Think of fourth grade girls ( lets ( two girls) be BFF's and hate HER ( third girl out)  together). She did this with siblings. She did this with dad ( what horrible children WE have) and she did this with us ( Your father... .)

Your wife was being the victim. Did you jump in to rescue the situation?. I'm not pointing this out to be critical of you, or to say you were wrong- you did a good thing. However, consider what your motivation to fix the plumbing was- to defend yourself, to prove something to your kids and so, this made you reactive to what she is doing. I agree with Sweetheart that fixing the tap and not getting into a dramatic argument with her was a step in the right direction. However, IMHO, I think the kids can figure her out over time.

It's kind of morbid, but mom is still doing this long after Dad is gone and we have long been able to see that this is just her perspective. She still calls me up to say " you would not believe the mess he left ME!... .( referring to his belongings that were left when he died). I think when we were little, she was able to influence us with this point of view, but not since we were young teens. We know that when she says this, she may not even believe it , but is taking on the victim perspective. Your kids can see what is really going on.

Operating outside of the triangle takes effort because it is familiar to us, and tempting. I have to work to stay aware of it. Sometimes I get a glimpse of when I am off. I was at a family event a while back. Mom and one of my siblings were going at each other. I was about to jump in and intervene when I thought: triangle ahead. I have been the rescuer. Then my next thought was, you know, those two can just work it out... . I think it is important to keep your kids from harm, but I hope in time their perceptiveness will impress you.

[formflier]

 

My objective was to "rescue"... .but to lovingly "confront" the rant in the best way possible.

Give her a way out that might be productive.

I can see how it may look like rescuing... .

What could I have done that would have been "off the triangle".

I did consider the triangle... .just not sure if I did it the right way.

FF

[Notwendy]

I think you did fine!

I don't think there is a right way or a wrong way when dealing with these things. They are tough. We do the best we can and still, it can feel like stumbling. You'd think that after years of dealing with this, I should have about 20 PhD's in dealing with BPD, but, people are unpredictable.

To me the growth is more about being aware of what I am doing and saying and learning from that. Am I being reactive? Am I acting on habit or being present in the moment. To intervene between sib and mom was habit, it was the strongest impulse. To be mindful and make a choice was where the feeling of victory came from, not my action. It was being aware that I was not being pulled by my role in the family.

I'm guessing, but part of your action was in response to mom badmouthing you in front of the kids? This would concern me too. I don't deal with that particular issue, but I do deal with the way my H looks good in front of the kids, leaving me to show the whole range of being human. I am not a perfect person. Now, I don't go ranting like my mom did, but being human, I make mistakes and when I do, I apologize to the kids. My H has taken a remote role in parenting- leaving the work of parenting to me. In this role, he does not risk making mistakes. He isn't the one to get delayed in traffic and is late picking them up from school, he isn't the one to deal with them asking why they can't have something they saw that they want in the store. He's not the one dealing with a tantruming toddler, or a sulky teen- because he's not there in the first place, and if you are not in the middle of it, you will not be the bad guy ever. I realize that as the stay at home parent, I would be doing most of this. The difference is that even when he is home, he is off doing something else and not involved.

I also mentioned that because my H looks good to them, and I was the emotional one, that they blamed me for the arguments between us.

What is came down to me was choosing that I would be a parent, a fully human parent to them, flaws, good things and all, and to see that modeling perfection was not good for them. I decided to base my parenting not on anything he did but on my values as a parent. I also think the kids see us clearly as who we are- and they love both of us. My H has done a lot of good for them, but sometimes he says he feels bad that he doesn't feel as connected to them. He sees it as something they are doing to him. If the kids are busy, he says "they are ignoring me", where to me, I am saying "they are just teens". Sadly, my H doesn't see his part in his feeling disconnected.

I mentioned my perspective on my parents, not from a right or wrong thing, but to hopefully let you know that kids can and do see the whole picture. As parents, I don't think we always do things right or wrong but over time, the kids can see us as we are- basically good and imperfect people.

[LonelyChild]

FF, all I can do is reassure you that, if your kids are sharp cookies, and I believe they are, they will see through this.

I don't agree. I was a sharp cookie. Only thing I did was blame myself. Kids love both their parents no matter what. Unfortunately.

[Notwendy]

Yes, they do, to a point.

However, if it happens that the kids are home alone with mom for much of the time, it becomes impossible to control what she says to them. This happens whether the couple stays together or not. Presumably, they would spend time with both parents in most cases.

I think the only thing the non parent can do is the best they can. I don't think it is a good idea to triangulate the other parent by speaking poorly about them.

However, I do wish my father had taken me aside and told me my mother was mentally ill instead of pretending she was "normal" because by the time I was an adult, it was pretty obvious that something was going on with her.

This is not the situation with me. My H does not speak poorly about me in front of the kids. My H's issues only show up in his most intimate relationships. He doesn't get too close emotionally with anyone and the worst of it is with me. I don't know how to change it for the kids. All I can do is the best I can with them.

For the longest time, I kept things calm by WOE at home, to keep my H from blowing up in front of the kids. I felt I could at least do that. I also ran interference between him and them, so if he did blow up, it would be with me, not them. When he did blow up, they saw me as provoking it, as this is what happened when he was triggered. So they have seen his rages, but don't connect them with anything they did. I may have kept things more stable, but also I role modeled a subservient depressed, doormat of a person to them. I don't know which had a worse impact on them.

As to loving their parents, possibly, but not for me. I loved my father like a parent, but my mother didn't take on that role with me. I think it is important to make the best of that relationship- she's the mother that was given to me, but I don't think I love her like a kid loves a mommy.

[Fian]

"However, I do wish my father had taken me aside and told me my mother was mentally ill instead of pretending she was "normal" because by the time I was an adult, it was pretty obvious that something was going on with her."

It appears that most on this board try to not tell their children that their parent has BPD.  I have wondered the same thing if it might be better in some cases, but on the other hand I imagine if it gets back to the pwBPD (which is likely when you tell kids), it could trigger a massive war in the family.  Thoughts?

[formflier]

 

If you get to the point where there is a diagnosis and certainly treatment... .then I think telling kids is OK.

If there is no diagnosis... skip it.

FF

[Notwendy]

To tell or not to tell- I think that's an individual decision that is probably best made with the guidance of a professional counselor or T.

I think in general, we tell kids adult things on a need to know basis. They usually signal us by asking questions. So when a toddler asks where babies come from, the information you give is different from when an older child asks. The little one may ask what is wrong with mommy or why is mommy crying, and you might say "mommy is sad, or not feeling well.

I'll be a bit dramatic here, but possibly the time your pre teen daughter is cleaning up the house after one of moms rages where she threw everything around the house might be good to give some more details. I knew something wasn't "normal" by the time I was doing that.

As for my situation, I don't think my H would have a diagnosis, but I believe our issues fit the pattern. I use this pattern as a guide for me, not him, and it has led me to the tools and lessons on this board for how to relate better.  I thought that by keeping the peace, the kids would not catch on, but they did. I don't feel right talking about him, but I also don't want to pretend everything is "normal" to them because they know we have had issues.

My kids are older now, old enough to understand some basics about relationships. I am open about the issues as it relates to me and only as much as is appropriate. They know we are in MT, they know about my FOO, co-dependency and that I attend groups. I hope I am modeling a path to mental health for them, a path of working on myself, and taking steps to break the cycle I grew up with.  

One reason not to disclose too much about the other parent is because of the possibility of triangulation and parentification. I don't discuss things that are personal and between parents with them, but I do discuss the steps I take to make personal changes. My kids are not confidants or peers, but they are too savvy to not notice issues.

[yeeter]

There are few perfect solutions, so the key is that you recognized some of what was happening and took some action.  The more you act, the more practice and the better you will get at it.

I think its good to step in when the alienation starts.  I avoid direct confrontation of it though (that just digresses) - so a redirection of emotion is a good solution.

At the same time I avoid jumping to immediately address whatever she is complaining about.  There were way too many years just sitting waiting for direction from her, on the next thing she wanted me to do.

In this case I might have reassured her that indeed, I would look at the faucet.  And leave it at that. Not right this minute (dont want to reward her with attention and action for her poor behavior).  Keep trying to validate the feelings (at that moment she was likely feeling like she was shouldering the majority of the effort and responsibilities, not getting enough help from you, etc... .whether true or not could be how she was feeling)

My kids ARE figuring it out.  Especially my 11 year old.  I dont say bad things about mom, but I DO acknowledge when she is deregulated and discuss how we might handle or deal with it (or sometimes avoid it), while ensuring them its in no way a reflection on them.  They know about JADE, validation of feelings vs reality, etc... .all tools I learned here and ones that will be useful for them in general.  I figure they need all the emotional support they can get else they might internalize it as their own deficiency (which is for sure how it is directed at them at times).

[KateCat]

My kids ARE figuring it out.  Especially my 11 year old.  I dont say bad things about mom, but I DO acknowledge when she is deregulated and discuss how we might handle or deal with it (or sometimes avoid it), while ensuring them its in no way a reflection on them.  They know about JADE, validation of feelings vs reality, etc... .all tools I learned here and ones that will be useful for them in general.  I figure they need all the emotional support they can get else they might internalize it as their own deficiency (which is for sure how it is directed at them at times).

This is wonderful, yeeter. I think you and NotWendy are doing terrific work.

[JohnLove]

Parentification is a side issue, it is the adultification of children you really want to avoid.

What difference does a formal diagnosis to crazy making behaviours really mean?... .does it change the behaviour or situation? If you're a relatively intelligent person that has discovered that your partner may be suffering from BPD (or any other serious mental illness for that matter) or are on these boards then you are already well informed. If you can read the DSM criteria is your guide. It is the very same guide used by your T to guide them. I am all for empowering people to make healthy choices and good decisions that serve them well.

I can't argue with telling children under guidance from a T if you are unsure of yourself or the best way to proceed.

It all depends on the age and maturity level of the children and if the behaviour of the pwBPD really warrants it. It's almost like an intervention and if the children are really young then you need to simply protect them by other means.

I think children need guidance and clarity if they are not to adopt crazy making behaviours themselves. This is how BPD can manifest. Children learn by imitation. They need to know at some point that crazy making and unreasonable behaviour is not just a "difficult" personality or traits that they should develop in themselves. Remember that in families when things go wrong the default is often the children blaming themselves... .

Everybody has issues but when they continue over a period of time and reoccur then children need information that will assist them to cope. I agree you need to be careful and what is said and to be well thought out. Fian, I didn't miss your perspective.

It needs to be done in the spirit of love and with compassion with the goal of helping the children deal with stuff that comes up for them but without undermining the family unit. Children finding themselves born into a family with a parent with serious mental health issues is never going to be easy but in saying that some really good lessons that serves them well for life can be gained.

Why does anyone think there is so many adults on these boards now trying to cope in very dysfunctional relationships?... .I find it somewhat (not morbidly) fascinating  that when you "break" a child, and that child becomes an adult that very very similar pathological behaviour results. The amount of times people read each others stories and comment that they could've wrote the same thing is mindblowingly eerie, myself included. My concern is BPD parents produce BPD children. They don't come out of nowhere... .and this needs to be prevented if at all possible, don't you think?

Just my 2c.

[JohnLove]

My kids ARE figuring it out.  Especially my 11 year old.  I dont say bad things about mom, but I DO acknowledge when she is deregulated and discuss how we might handle or deal with it (or sometimes avoid it), while ensuring them its in no way a reflection on them.  They know about JADE, validation of feelings vs reality, etc... .all tools I learned here and ones that will be useful for them in general.  I figure they need all the emotional support they can get else they might internalize it as their own deficiency (which is for sure how it is directed at them at times).

This is wonderful, yeeter. I think you and NotWendy are doing terrific work.

I second that this is amazingly good advice. Great lesson on responding with the demanding and unreasonable commands to jump to action immediately and the insinuation if you dont then you arent "good"... .and using this to "prove" that the other parent isnt "worthy".

This is just plain manipulation (which is abuse) and you are obviously pretty darn good at recognising it, but when children are being brought into it.  

You are to be commended yeeter.  

[formflier]

What difference does a formal diagnosis to crazy making behaviours really mean?... .does it change the behaviour or situation? 

No, but it does change what you should tell your kids.

IMO... .if there is no diagnosis you should be a bit more circumspect.  I would reject labels. 

Help kids respond to behaviors... .don't suggest either parent is defective or "has something". 

Worst case is that you tell your kid that mom has BPD, but she has never been evaluated.  Kid tells mom, mom blows stack and yet has "facts" on her side.  Now mom can rant and rave about hubby diagnosing her and telling her kids things that aren't true.

And... .she would be right... .

If there is a diagnosis, then I would lean heavily on the professionals creating a treatment plan to guide the decision to tell.

Last thing you want is to be going at odds with what a T is attempting to do.

I have advised older kids about JADE and things like that.  I will reference situations with mom but not as primary reason for the talk.

I used to hear them JADEing to try and convince mom to be reasonable.  It was frustrating to hear.

Never will be perfect... .but it's better.

FF

[JohnLove]

I have a healthy respect for you formflier. I have considered and benefited much from your advice since Apr 2014, although I have noticed your response style change abround 6 months ago. I'm unsure why?... .maybe your new way serves you better.

In response about talking to kids, I don't think it does. We can disagree as it's a personal choice. Diagnosis or not, I am not telling children that she is BPD either way, and labels ARE often unhelpful but I still call a spade a spade.

Suggestioning that someone is defective is cruel and not compassionate, and also unfair as everyone has something wonderful about them. This is usually the only reason why intelligent people stay.

I know the worse case scenario as a highly likely outcome. I have an alienated now 20 year old daughter with my BPDex that is in a comitted relationship herself and I am still not able to tell her... .yet. Truth can set you free and I am concerned for her.

The only truth now is it is what it is.

I agree that leaning heavily on a treatment plan with a T for what to tell children is a good option but that assumes they or yourself is in treatment and I believe that most people with BPD don't seem to be in any treatment. If they were I would take the T's advice into consideration but I wouldn't allow them to lead my life unless I was completely lost (and I have been at times).  Most therapists I have come across are not competent with BPD and those that are don't really want those patients.  Professionals is an interesting word... .they are really only a university educated person who has completed a degree with feelings and opinions of their own that they will employ in their work.

This is not intended to discourage people from seeking a T, more a warning to find someone who is really competent, and wise, and a good match for you and your partner if this person is going to be allowed into the nuts and bolts of your relationship, let alone your intimate lives.

I agree again that if your SO is in treatment, then everyone should be working together.

JADEing is a natural reaction to an "unnatural" situation, it must be unlearned if the people involved are to stay together long term.

I agree with what is working for you.  

[unicorn2014]

Formflier, that sounds like a really difficult situation. Your wife also reminds me a bit of my mom. She is always complaining about my dad. I didn't learn until I was an adult just how damaging that was. What would be the consequences of standing up for yourself in front of your children? I can tell you to this day I am still trying to get my dad to stand up for himself to my mom. I think my dad tried to stand up for himself, but I don't think he set good boundaries with my mom. Do you have any boundaries in place for how your wife can talk to you in front of your children?

[Notwendy]

I can tell you to this day I am still trying to get my dad to stand up for himself to my mom.

That is a normal and natural response, but it is one way to step into the drama triangle with your parents. I did this ( unknowingly) and fell right into it. This is what happened to me- I jumped in to defend dad, or encourage him to stand up for himself ( rescuer). But Dad's position relative to mom was her rescuer. I them became the prosecutor to mom, mom became the victim and dad- rescued mom by getting angry at me.

It evolved developmentally as we got older. At first it was scary to see mom and dad fight, then we got fed up with it. A times, we wished they'd just get a divorce, then we wished dad would leave her.

I think every teen ager at times is angry and resentful towards their parents. Just try to say no to a teen who wants something " all my friends have this, or are doing this, so and so's mom lets her do this, you are the meanest parent ever", but for us, we feared her and hated her and we actually wanted Dad to leave so we could live with him and not her.

But as you know, this is immature teen thinking and I don't hate my mother. The dynamics between my parents were deeper, stronger and thicker than what we could have understood at that age and even later. I began to get it when I could not stand up for myself in my marriage, and it saddens me to think I modeled this for my kids, but through learning about these kind of relationships, I think I understand my parent better and have compassion for their situation.

[formflier]

 

Yeah... .I hope to spend time on these posts later tonight.

I don't "stand up" for myself as in "defend" for JADE.

When my wife starts acting out.   I try to pick healthy spots to redirect things to a better place.

Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't

So, walking in and asking if she wanted me to work on water was not about "winning" or "me" it was me seeing (putting my toes in water... .so to speak) if we could get off the warpath and go somewhere constructive.

Marginally... .we did go in a better direction.

Earlier efforts, hugs, glass of water, conversation, whatever... .had completely failed.

So, on the one hand... .I'm not responsible for my wife's behavior.  On the other hand, likelihood of her fixing it herself are low.

Direct assaults almost always fail.  "You are behaving badly in front of the kids, let's model better behavior".  I've tried it... .not good.

Flanking assaults do work sometimes.  I wish I could figure out better when they will and won't work.

What I attempted was a flank of her behavior and offer her a "pathway" to something better.

Hope this makes sense.

FF

[Notwendy]

I agree with you FF. I posted my perspective, both as a kid, a teen and as an adult to illustrate that what the kids want to see happen, may not be the whole story. These relationships are complicated.

Also to let parents know the kids may try to intervene, even as adults. I had no idea what I was doing. Kids of any age see it from their perspective.

You're the parent in your household, and it's your marriage.

[flourdust]

So, on the one hand... .I'm not responsible for my wife's behavior.  On the other hand, likelihood of her fixing it herself are low.

Direct assaults almost always fail.  "You are behaving badly in front of the kids, let's model better behavior".  I've tried it... .not good.

Flanking assaults do work sometimes.  I wish I could figure out better when they will and won't work.

What I attempted was a flank of her behavior and offer her a "pathway" to something better.

Hope this makes sense.

It does make sense to me ... .but it's one of the more aggravating things about living with BPD. I can't just go up to my wife and start a conversation about something. I have to strategize ... .what can I say? How should I say it? When should I do it? Can I read her mind or body language to tell if she's receptive or this will cause a blowup? If I say it one way, and she takes offense, should I apologize, or will that make her angrier? Should I try validation? If I validate, and she turns it into a demand that I fix her emotion, how do I extract myself? Ugh. On and on.

And then there are the times that I'm relaxed, and I let my guard down, and I talk to her like she's a normal human being. BIG mistake.

[Notwendy]

This is an interesting perspective, and I know that I can say things that would set my mom, or my H off, but it's my H who says this about me. I don't know why, unless it is some kind of projection. I don't go off in the same way- get triggered, but when he is saying mean things to me, I will start to cry. That's when he says " see, you say you want me to talk to you, but this is why I can't talk to you" . He interprets my crying as me doing something to him because it makes him feel bad to see my cry.

Conversations with him about personal or serious issues are difficult, because there is this long pause between me saying something. It seems like he is mulling over different things to say, or how to say them. Then, he will either respond with a question ( if I asked him one) or a vague answer that doesn't really speak to the topic at hand. It's as if he doesn't want to say anything that he may get blamed for, but I'm not intending that in the first place.

I don't say a lot to him that can upset him, not because I am afraid he will be triggered, or any strategy, but because these conversations are exhausting and feel pointless.

This actually breaks my heart. I wish I could talk to him but I've tried for years and I don't know what else to do but to acknowledge that this isn't possible as far as I can tell.

But if you ask him, he will say he can't talk to me because of what I might say or do- just like your spouses. I wonder what they would say?

[JohnLove]

So, on the one hand... .I'm not responsible for my wife's behavior.  On the other hand, likelihood of her fixing it herself are low.

Direct assaults almost always fail.  "You are behaving badly in front of the kids, let's model better behavior".  I've tried it... .not good.

Flanking assaults do work sometimes.  I wish I could figure out better when they will and won't work.

What I attempted was a flank of her behavior and offer her a "pathway" to something better.

Hope this makes sense.

It does make sense to me ... .but it's one of the more aggravating things about living with BPD. I can't just go up to my wife and start a conversation about something. I have to strategize ... .what can I say? How should I say it? When should I do it? Can I read her mind or body language to tell if she's receptive or this will cause a blowup? If I say it one way, and she takes offense, should I apologize, or will that make her angrier? Should I try validation? If I validate, and she turns it into a demand that I fix her emotion, how do I extract myself? Ugh. On and on.

And then there are the times that I'm relaxed, and I let my guard down, and I talk to her like she's a normal human being. BIG mistake.

I have had the exact same experience flourdust. It feels disappointing when things are going so well you make the "mistake" of feeling like you are in a "normal" relationship.

This is an interesting perspective, and I know that I can say things that would set my mom, or my H off, but it's my H who says this about me. I don't know why, unless it is some kind of projection. I don't go off in the same way- get triggered, but when he is saying mean things to me, I will start to cry. That's when he says " see, you say you want me to talk to you, but this is why I can't talk to you" . He interprets my crying as me doing something to him because it makes him feel bad to see my cry.

Conversations with him about personal or serious issues are difficult, because there is this long pause between me saying something. It seems like he is mulling over different things to say, or how to say them. Then, he will either respond with a question ( if I asked him one) or a vague answer that doesn't really speak to the topic at hand. It's as if he doesn't want to say anything that he may get blamed for, but I'm not intending that in the first place.

I don't say a lot to him that can upset him, not because I am afraid he will be triggered, or any strategy, but because these conversations are exhausting and feel pointless.

This actually breaks my heart. I wish I could talk to him but I've tried for years and I don't know what else to do but to acknowledge that this isn't possible as far as I can tell.

But if you ask him, he will say he can't talk to me because of what I might say or do- just like your spouses. I wonder what they would say?

Oooh, I know that with my BPDex a statement would mean there is a lot of "darkness" inside and if they let go REALITY would hit real quick, possibly causing the demise of the relationship in the process. pwBPD seem to have a load of compensatory behaviours to prevent their pattern of destructive behaviours that are the very definition of BPD. They can't "see" their disorder but have lived with it, and know they have made mistakes and some can perhaps see the pattern in themselves. It's SO hard and I am sorry that you are enduring this Notwendy.


My BPDgf and I relationship recently became unstable (again... .for the 35674th time) and on the previous break I spoke to her about a "relationship emergency eject button" while pushing a pretend button on the wall, and explaining that either of us can press it, and that will trigger an action that both of us would undertake... .and it this context it meant a defined break of some duration as this has what has been happening for a while anyway, except we would define it as the she doesn't want to apologise because she "knows" she hasn't done anything "wrong". Currently our breaks are of some duration where we can find peace for ourselves until on eof us reaches out to the other. We have always come back together. I have said to my BDDgf that eventually the break may be permanent if we don't have a new strategy to deal with relationship issues that are really things caused by her BPD... .but in saying this my BPDgf couldn't form a plan or agree to anything  (bet you can't guess what subtype she is?).

My latest strategy is TELLING IT EXACTLY LIKE IT IS. This is in a (vain?) attempt to for her to see her BPD. It involves a little SET, with emphasis on the T. I understand that pwBPD can't see their own disorder and that wreaks havoc for themselves and in their lives and I am currently attempting to bring it to the forefront. I know pwBPD have dysfunctional AND functional coping behaviours and compensatory behaviours which I feel is the entire gist of this thread. I want my BPDgf to see them for what they are.

Wish me luck. If I figure a new treatment modality, you heard it here first 

[Notwendy]

I'm working on honesty and not tip toeing around issues. I think when we try to manage them on our end, it involves some dishonesty on our part. Sometimes we do the best we can, considering the circumstance and our goals.

I do discuss things with H in MC where the C can moderate and sometimes translate for us. Outside of MC, it just seems to deteriorate often.

[formflier]

I do discuss things with H in MC where the C can moderate and sometimes translate for us. Outside of MC, it just seems to deteriorate often.

Can you give an example of a conversation that gets moderated in MC, but deteriorates outside?

FF

[Notwendy]

The last one was about money. My H prefers to pay the bills and make some financial decisions without telling me, even though I have asked to be more of a participant in this. I have no issues about how well he provides, or what he is doing with the money. I am grateful for what he does for us.

If I ask about money it is because I don't always know what is going on. I have access to the bank accounts, so that isn't the issue. I want to know about the general expenses and cash flow. I am not asking to be critical.

This is a distinction that isn't clear to him. . He tends to feel as if I am criticizing him even if I am not.

So, a typical conversation might be " Hi honey, can we talk about the saving plan? I'm not clear what is going on? " This would be followed by something like " Don't you think I'm doing enough for this family" ":)on't you think I give you enough money?" " I pay for everything for this family!"  To which I might validate " yes, honey, I appreciate everything you do for us- I am just wanting to talk about something I would like to understand better" but by then, it has gone down the rabbit hole.

What the MC can do is intercept this conversation and turn it back on track. She is able to hear what he says and then take it back to the point " I don't think that Wendy means to say this" She can do this with him, but I can't. So, he can eventually see that the intent of the conversation is not to hurt or criticize him. He can't see that with me.