Guilt or Shame 2...

[Depression = 72% of members]

Do you or have you boxed?

What she did was give you a couple jabs about the divorce.  

Those jabs didn't open up an opportunity to land a bigger hit... and you "called the match" and went to your corner.

Solid.

FF

Yes, I have done some boxing and that is a good analogy.  She tried some jabs yesterday morning and I bob and weaved again... .  We were in the middle of a conversation and she said, "You are bull-headed."  I said, "I can be when I need to be."  We were both joking and then she threw a "jab" and said, "That's why you won't work with me on the divorce."  I just responded with, "Anyway... .(and then brought back up what we were discussing)."   She said, "That was a quick change of subject."  I said, "Yeah, because I won't discuss it."  She said, "Ok... .(And then went back to what we were talking about)."  It's pretty funny but I can tell she is at a "crossroads" at this point.  She either has to pay her attorney more money to go file a motion (that's what I figure anyway), which carries this further, or drop the whole thing completely.  I think she thought that her lawyer threatening me would make me "help" her with the divorce.  I won't.  I've told her many times, including last week, if this is what you truly want, you will have to go through with it.  We have had so many good moments the last few months.  Last night, we were on the phone and she told me, "I love that you really listen to me now and really take in what I say.  I appreciate that."  I told her that she was welcome and that I valued her opinion because she always has great insight that I don't see.

[MaroonLiquid]

Do you or have you boxed?

What she did was give you a couple jabs about the divorce.  

Those jabs didn't open up an opportunity to land a bigger hit... and you "called the match" and went to your corner.

Solid.

FF

Yes, I have done some boxing and that is a good analogy.  She tried some jabs yesterday morning and I bob and weaved again... .  We were in the middle of a conversation and she said, "You are bull-headed."  I said, "I can be when I need to be."  We were both joking and then she threw a "jab" and said, "That's why you won't work with me on the divorce."  I just responded with, "Anyway... .(and then brought back up what we were discussing)."   She said, "That was a quick change of subject."  I said, "Yeah, because I won't discuss it."  She said, "Ok... .(And then went back to what we were talking about)."  It's pretty funny but I can tell she is at a "crossroads" at this point.  She either has to pay her attorney more money to go file a motion (that's what I figure anyway), which carries this further, or drop the whole thing completely.  I think she thought that her lawyer threatening me would make me "help" her with the divorce.  I won't.  I've told her many times, including last week, if this is what you truly want, you will have to go through with it.  We have had so many good moments the last few months.  Last night, we were on the phone and she told me, "I love that you really listen to me now and really take in what I say.  I appreciate that."  I told her that she was welcome and that I valued her opinion because she always has great insight that I don't see.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

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[MaroonLiquid]

The last few days with my wife have been interesting.  I was supposed to let her attorney know by yesterday about responding to the discovery request.  Yesterday my wife starting feeling very strange and then passed out at her desk at him by herself.  She immediately called me.  I finished something up and immediately left work and went to check on her and take care of her.  She couldn't get in to see the doctor until Monday so I stayed with her and spent the rest of the day just her and I.  We had an awesome time even though she was going through something.  She started speaking strange (disoriented) at times and even cried once and held me and said that she didn't know what was wrong with her.  She told me she loved me and that she really appreciated me.  I spent the night with her to make sure she was ok throughout the night.  Today, I took her some lunch after work and we spent the afternoon and into the evening together and had dinner with the kids.  After, I picked our son up from work and then when I got back to her place, I started feeling tired and decided to come home.  As I was leaving, she told me she loved me.  She has changed dramatically the last few days and I am trying to figure out why.  I guess I don't care ultimately, but strange with the timing.  Maybe she is at a fork in the road and realizes she doesn't want to lose me? 

[waverider]

Is she actually aware of the reality of what will change if you do divorce, or is she living in some delusion as to the reality.

Have you made this clear?

[KateCat]

What a fork in the road!

If your wife should beg you to move back in with her now, would you jump right in, or would you feel the need for professional guidance to help the two of you go forward?

I know you don't want to fall back to the past.

[formflier]

If your wife should beg you to move back in with her now, would you jump right in, or would you feel the need for professional guidance to help the two of you go forward?

You guys know me... .always wanting to think about contingencies.

This is one to make sure you are not "caught" flat footed on.

Plan for success... .be prepared to settle (for now) for something in between your version of success and what you have now.

I'm going to rephrase KateCat's question... .or possibly this is a different question.

How long will you stay at her house (or should you stay) without being obvious that you need to get back to "your" world and take care of "your" stuff.

Remember... .pwBPD usually want to avoid the hard stuff (him... that can apply to me sometimes too...    )

So, I would be prepared for the "begging"... or some other dramatic "pull" to get you in the house.  However, I don't think that is going to happen.

My bet is that it is more likely that she goes with the... ."just stay here another day or two"... .or "it's only a day or two until the weekend... .why go home... ."

Then... .you are spending so much time there... .might as well spend more...

No reasoning other than just what my gut tells me from knowing your story.

Has she ever done any dramatic "pull" stuff to get you back before?

Hmmm... .would you resume a deeper r/s without the divorce being dropped?

You know how she is with money... .ready for her hail mary pass to get you to let loose some $$.

"Maroon... .I'd love to drop the divorce but I owe my attorney $xx... .can you help me out... .just this one time.?."

To be clear... .this is all speculation on my part... .you don't want to obsess over these questions... .but I don't want maroon to have deer in headlights look either.

Hang in there man!   

FF

[KateCat]

Oh, formflier has just the right questions, doesn't he, maroon? It's going to be much more complex than a simple case of your wife having "second thoughts."

Excellent idea to think through all the possibilities of what comes next.

[JohnLove]

Although you guys (and girls) are correct in your interpretation with these BPD symptoms I feel you aren't right on the money.

My suspicion MaroonLiquid, is that your wife has had some sort of realisation or reality check. It does sound like a severe dissociative episode.

From what you have posted my instincts tell me that her mask is slipping, and all her game playing and bulls**t is conflicting with what is really happening and she is now feeling it... .somewhat accurately. I have seen people recover from things that are pent up and they can come crashing down in an instant.

I feel she is being real, and trying to keep it real. How long this will last is anyone's guess as you can't just shake off a severe mental illness.

None of this can be easy on her, but she could sure make it easier by leaving the mask off.

You validated her in one of the nicest ways possible at the end of your first post.

At the end of your second post, I believe you are correct on that.

I would enjoy it while it lasts and use this experience to (potentially) make some real progress.

All the best.  

[MaroonLiquid]

Is she actually aware of the reality of what will change if you do divorce, or is she living in some delusion as to the reality.

Have you made this clear?

Yes she is.  I made it clear months back that our relationship would change significantly.

What a fork in the road!

If your wife should beg you to move back in with her now, would you jump right in, or would you feel the need for professional guidance to help the two of you go forward?

I know you don't want to fall back to the past.

I'm in the middle of a lease with my apartment complex so I can't jump right in.  Not that I would anyway.  We would need to start seeing a counselor together.

If your wife should beg you to move back in with her now, would you jump right in, or would you feel the need for professional guidance to help the two of you go forward?

You guys know me... .always wanting to think about contingencies.

This is one to make sure you are not "caught" flat footed on.

Plan for success... .be prepared to settle (for now) for something in between your version of success and what you have now.

I'm going to rephrase KateCat's question... .or possibly this is a different question.

How long will you stay at her house (or should you stay) without being obvious that you need to get back to "your" world and take care of "your" stuff.

Remember... .pwBPD usually want to avoid the hard stuff (him... that can apply to me sometimes too...    )

So, I would be prepared for the "begging"... or some other dramatic "pull" to get you in the house.  However, I don't think that is going to happen.

My bet is that it is more likely that she goes with the... ."just stay here another day or two"... .or "it's only a day or two until the weekend... .why go home... ."

Then... .you are spending so much time there... .might as well spend more...

No reasoning other than just what my gut tells me from knowing your story.

Has she ever done any dramatic "pull" stuff to get you back before?

Hmmm... .would you resume a deeper r/s without the divorce being dropped?

You know how she is with money... .ready for her hail mary pass to get you to let loose some $$.

"Maroon... .I'd love to drop the divorce but I owe my attorney $xx... .can you help me out... .just this one time.?."

To be clear... .this is all speculation on my part... .you don't want to obsess over these questions... .but I don't want maroon to have deer in headlights look either.

Hang in there man!   

FF

I am ready for the "Hail Mary"!   . But I also think she understands I won't be giving her any.  As far as dramatic "pull" stuff, I'm not sure really.  I know that when she had surgery about 9 months ago I was there for her.  As far as staying at her house.  I stay until I decide that I've either been there long enough or until she is better if she is sick. 

Although you guys (and girls) are correct in your interpretation with these BPD symptoms I feel you aren't right on the money.

My suspicion MaroonLiquid, is that your wife has had some sort of realisation or reality check. It does sound like a severe dissociative episode.

From what you have posted my instincts tell me that her mask is slipping, and all her game playing and bulls**t is conflicting with what is really happening and she is now feeling it... .somewhat accurately. I have seen people recover from things that are pent up and they can come crashing down in an instant.

I feel she is being real, and trying to keep it real. How long this will last is anyone's guess as you can't just shake off a severe mental illness.

None of this can be easy on her, but she could sure make it easier by leaving the mask off.

You validated her in one of the nicest ways possible at the end of your first post.

At the end of your second post, I believe you are correct on that.

I would enjoy it while it lasts and use this experience to (potentially) make some real progress.

All the best. 

I do think her mask is slipping and I believe that she was going through a horrendous period of dissociation and that is resolving itself.

[formflier]

 

I would set a limit... .just to be safe of 3-4 days of staying over at which point you will make it obvious you have another household.

Or at least make sure that you have though through the situation and that staying longer is healthy.

You are doing great!  Keep it up.

FF

[KateCat]

Do you think her attorney suggested they not waste money on court motions and instead proceed to a default judgment? (In other words, suggested she "finish" this divorce herself, like right now?)

You are doing so well in the middle of this confusion.

[MaroonLiquid]

I would set a limit... .just to be safe of 3-4 days of staying over at which point you will make it obvious you have another household.

Or at least make sure that you have though through the situation and that staying longer is healthy.

You are doing great!  Keep it up.

FF

It is usually only one night (two at most), unless I have been taking care of her after a surgery or when she has been sick.  But yeah, any longer than that and I think it gets

Do you think her attorney suggested they not waste money on court motions and instead proceed to a default judgment? (In other words, suggested she "finish" this divorce herself, like right now?)

You are doing so well in the middle of this confusion.

I don't know.  I'm not sure.  It could be, and maybe that is why she is "snapping out of it" (so to speak) because it is now "do or let die" time.  It could also be that she is having real health issues and that is also causing her to rethink everything.  I find it a little strange now that she is having "health issues" that she hasn't mentioned her open enrollment.  She said that they are running tests and will know more in several weeks.  My open enrollment is next month. 

[MaroonLiquid]

Last night I went to our daughter's volleyball game and had a great time.  My wife threw me a curveball and I think I handled it well.  I felt something was coming the last few days due to her health issues so I was on guard for it.  She said at the game, "I have an idea."  I responded thinking it was going to be about softball, "OK, let's hear it."  She said, "I changed cell phone companies to company X (she's been with company Y since 93) and I have an extra line besides the kids and I."  I said, "That's cool."  She said, "Yeah, so I thought that maybe you could take that line, I'll pay for it and I could stay on your insurance for next year."     Now, she didn't even mention divorce or say anything regarding that.  It was just about the insurance.  I responded, "That would save me $150 dollars every month, and it does benefit you and the kids greatly as well.  I can see your point" (trying to be validating without agreeing to anything).  She said, "Yeah, I think it's a great idea."  I said, "Well, it's definitely something to think about.  Let's talk about it later."  She said, "What is there to talk about?"  I said, "We would need to talk about logistics of this, and it being so noisy here, it's hard to think."  She said, "OK."  We finished watching the game and then after I went to practice.  After practice, I went back to her place and spent the night. 

     The phone for insurance "deal" was a curveball, and I'm so much better now recognizing them coming out of the "pitcher's hand" that they don't even phase me anymore.     Anyway, I'm trying to figure out what this is.  There's a couple of issues here that are interesting.  First, I thought it was interesting that she is being more loving lately and there was no mention of divorce tonight.  It was only about the insurance.  I understand that is a concern for her especially with what is going on with her health lately.  Maybe she has turned a corner somewhat away from divorce?  Another interesting tidbit I thought about was it gives her back a form of control that she doesn't have.  It could be her way of trying to "trust me" even though I don't give her a reason not to.  I also remembered during the first few months of horrible dysregulation that when I stood my ground (albeit in not the right manner; more about control on my part), she cut off my phone.  We are in a different place now, but at the same time I'm trying to protect myself.  Thoughts?

[Fian]

I do see it as a positive step as she will depending on you for health insurance, which is something that she would have to give up if she divorces you.  On the other hand, as you have pointed out, that means she can mess you up by dropping you from her coverage at any time.  In the worst case scenario, she drops you from coverage, but does not divorce you, forcing you to continue to pay for her coverage for at least the next year.

However, if you wish to get back together with her, then it will mean that you will need to start to depend on her, and she on you.  This is a step in that direction.

You could discuss the last time that she dropped you from her coverage.  Something to the effect of, "I think this is a great idea, but I remember the last time that you dropped me from the cell phone.  This time, can we agree that no matter how angry you get with me in the future, you won't do that to me?"  You would know best if that would be a constructive conversation or a deal ender.

[formflier]

 

MaroonLiquid,

It's a sneak attack.  

She wants to regain some amount of control on your life.

If you want to do this as a gesture... .then you need to transition to google voice or some other type of phone number that is easily portable to another phone (regardless of that phones number).

I use this setup as a just in case measure.  If my wife cuts off the physical phone then I go to wal mart and get a prepaid smart phone, download google voice app, and I'm up and running.

Also up and running on any computer I can log into with gmail.

Realize that you are handing her a "weapon" that she has used in the past.  Without any official treatment or counseling... .I am worried that she won't be able to help herself.

Her thought process:

"Oh that Maroon... .he has screwed me on the IRS debt... .and I'm pissed at him.  "

Right now her follow up to that is... .

"I'll show him... .and won't talk to him for a couple of days... .he'll see"

you are handing her a chance to say... .

"Maroon tricked me into staying on his insurance and paying for his phone... . I'm not going to be taken advantage of anymore.  "  She calls phone company and you are dropped.

FF

[formflier]

 

I seem to remember some good advice from some of the women on here.

That you do the insurance as an act of love.  Not in return for anything else.

Please think on this for a few days... .

But I'm thinking that you offer the insurance based on your love for her and that you are married.  End of story.

It's the "anti-control" to her control.

Thank her for thinking of you but decline the cell phone.

There is part of me that says that insurance should be hooked to counseling.  However... .she would feel controlled... .would be going to counseling because you "made her".

I think your trajectory for the r/s has been good... .stay on the same pathway of separateness where she can't control you.

FF

[KateCat]

OK, this is one time I'm certain about something:

Don't take the phone offer. Do exactly what formflier counsels.

For exactly the reasons formflier outlines.

This is an important decision for you. I think you can see it.

[sweetheart]

Hi ML,

Haven't replied for a while but I'm with ff and KateCat on this one.    Stay.Away.From.This.

You're current relationship status does not have clear enough parameters at the moment. It is only 5 minutes ago that divorce was 'on the table.'

If it were me I would want things to carry on just as they are.

[sadeyes]

No go on the phone. In addition to what everyone else said, it also gives her potential access to your phone records.

Also, if she wants to stay on your insurance,  she must be not thinking of the divorce, as that would put an end to that. 

[Fian]

Also, if she wants to stay on your insurance,  she must be not thinking of the divorce, as that would put an end to that. 

Technically, she can go on COBRA for up to 18 months after she is dropped due to the divorce.  It costs her out of pocket (no company contribution), but it is usually a better deal than you can get in the open market.  However, if he dropped her before the divorce, I don't know that COBRA is an option.

[formflier]

No go on the phone. In addition to what everyone else said, it also gives her potential access to your phone records.

As an aside,  going with Google voice or a product similar to that would deny access to the phone records, since the phone calls would all be data to the cell company.

Just so you know...

But... without a product like that... .lots of potential for snooping.  Very bad... .

FF

[Grey Kitty]

My $.02

You don't want to be on her phone plan. Others have said why.

And you don't need to give her a reason. Just say you will keep your phone separate, and shut up.

Nothing good will come of telling her why you don't trust her... .