Amazing how much control BPD mom has over kids

[sanemom]

DH went to the hospital last week due to a bad medication reaction, and BPD mom took the kids against the possession order, claiming she would give them back when DH was discharged.  He was discharged the next day, and she still refused to relinquish them. 

She has since somehow convinced them not to talk or text with their dad AT ALL, convinced DSS17 to skip school midday three days in a row to avoid being picked up by dad (who has primary), and has now filed a CPS claim against us (and, at this point, I would not be surprised if she convinces the two teens to lie to CPS).  DH has primary possession right now, but after just illegally taking them for one week, she has turned them against him.

We have a hearing on Monday--the boys' counselor will be testifying along with others as to how she pressures them to do things--hopefully, when the judge talks with them, he takes what the counselors say about her manipulations into account.

[sanemom]

It's worse than I thought.  We have a webcam in our room, and just saw footage of the boys taking medicine bottles out and replacing them... .they were helping BPD mom set us up.  In her affidavit she is claiming that we were taking DSS's prescribed pain meds (we weren't, and there is plenty left). 

How can teenagers be convinced to set their father up, who they have lived with for 14 years?

[whirlpoollife]

My xh has the same kind of power. I still lock my bedroom door if I have to go out for a bit and kids are home, amd kids will never have a key to my house. If they did , xh would get a copy and he'd be in my house.  The parenting teacher at the court house even said for me to not give kids a key. ( we had a court order to take a , cant we all get along , parenting class, we were in separate classes).

I hope you can use the footage from the webcam. That's just sick what she is doing to kids .

I hope the legal system sees it .

Will be thinking of you and DH tomorrow.

[bravhart1]

I'm so sorry to hear this has happened. As a step mom I know just how disturbing and frustrating it is to have the "crazy" bio mom running the show, not only at her house but through the child(ren)  in my home too.

I am also amazed at how BPDm gets my SD to do the most agregious things to me and DH and she seems to have no concern about how this is teaching her daughter to be a bully and a liar. And how come SD never feels bad for us? Only her mom.

[PinkieV]

sanemom, your name is truly apropos here. I hope the judge takes all BM's actions into account today. This is sickening! It's amazing the power she has over the kids to have this all happen so quickly. Please let us know what happens, and sending you virtual hugs and support.

[Panda39]

Hi sanemom,

Just wanted to let you know that I'm with you today too.  My SO has been through things similar to what you describe.

Just wanted to send some good thoughts your way. 

Panda39

[Nope]

It's worse than I thought.  We have a webcam in our room, and just saw footage of the boys taking medicine bottles out and replacing them... .they were helping BPD mom set us up.  In her affidavit she is claiming that we were taking DSS's prescribed pain meds (we weren't, and there is plenty left). 

How can teenagers be convinced to set their father up, who they have lived with for 14 years?

I  floored by this. I also hope you were able to show that to the judge. Though I really don't know what I think a judge should do about it. I imagine I'd be so furious and hurt if the kids being raised in my home did something like that. The one certainty is that all trust would go out the window and need to be earned back.

[sanemom]

The judge punted--didn't hear any of our case at all; just BM's testimony and the CPS worker who only had interviewed one of BPD mom's minions (there are four more kids to interview).  He then said we would have a full hearing after CPS has done more of the investigation.  Meanwhile, his two kids stay with BPD mom and now ignore all communication by DH.

Just disgusting... .

[bravhart1]

Oh my gosh, that's terrible. I'm so sorry. I just don't understand why the courts are so hesitant to try to correct these situations when it's SO transparent that we are dealing with high conflict people who relish these long drawn out court cases.

It's so much easier said than done to take the high road, after spending so much money and time on these efforts to save the children and then the children are the ones who don't seem to care if they ever see you again. I'm right there with you, only you guys seem at least to still be in it for the right reasons. I question sometimes why I even care anymore. It's a crisis of faith or something, the T calls it.

Hang in there and know that whatever the outcome, you did the right thing for the right reasons and hopefully ( cross your fingers) one day the kids will look back and see you were on their side trying to help.

[sanemom]

Thanks--you guys made me feel better.  It seems like there are so many stories on here where the teens get sick of the BPD parent's behaviors, but ours are still in the "poor BPD mom" camp. 

They went to the counselor today and told him they were still mad at dad and did not want him to contact them.  Of course, they were not mad at him before they left.  At least they are going to a counselor.  I am hoping that the counselor gets what is going on, but I am not sure.

[Blistex]

Treat if like a drug addiction.

That means everyone is drug tested (pain meds will show up on a drug test) to rule out diversion, addiction ect. from a doctor and have it documented.

Also, do a pill count between drop offs.  If there is 20 at the drop off both sign off on it.  Save it for documentation.  Perhaps even take a photo with everyone in it.  Whatever.  Protect yourself.

Get a safe.  A good old fashioned safe.  Put all alcohol (rubbing alcohol, hand sanitizer with alcohol, asprin, all medications, ect) into a safe and lock it.  And work as if there is a drug addiction/ alcohol issue going on.

Don't make it a big deal just do it.  Put the safe in a discreet spot and don't make an issue of it.  Example: Well, dishes are kept in the cupboard, clothes kept in a drawer.  Things have its place.  And immediately move on.

While it sounds severe, You did a surveillance camera with or without? anyone's knowledge.

So be well rounded in your "doing what's best for the children."

Good luck.  It stinks because it sounds like the ex is predatory.  And with that, it is difficult to predict what's next when you take this issue off the table.

If cps is involved, they will want to know as parents who are looking out for the best interest of the child are doing/reacting to a highly volatile situation.

[sanemom]

No one has been taking the medication in months... .it was just sitting there.  The reason we had the camera was to catch my younger tween stealing candy and confronting her... .had no idea we would get this.

What I am starting to realize is that the kids don't trust either parent even though it's their mom who lies to them on a regular basis.  They didn't understand why their dad was acting the way he was those last 24-36 hours before he was taken to the hospital so I think they were mad and that was probably their way to get back at him.  Then when he was "fixed" pretty quickly, they were all loving on him, but the damage was done--they had already submitted the "evidence" to BPD mom.  

And now she has them and they are suddenly claiming to be very angry with him again and are refusing contact.  Not sure how this can work out in the end... .

Since BPD mom then got CPS involved, they interviewed my 3 kids as well, and it sounds like my kids told very different stories from his kids.  At one point the investigator asked if my oldest DD thought her stepbrother was just naturally snoopy, and she said that their mom manipulates them to do all sorts of things.

The sad thing is two of my kids figured out that their mom called CPS and are angry that this is happening.

[sanemom]

We have a counselor who is going to help us "get over" these feelings of being utterly violated by the boys.  I think the counselor believes that they will be sent back to us.  Everyone (counselors) keep telling us that the boys know we will forgive them no matter what; the boys have to do what BPD mom says because she won't forgive them.  That is all fine and dandy, but at the end of the day, how on earth do we ever feel safe in our home with spies there?  

The boys' counselor was working with DH on being more real with the boys to improve their relationship, and he finally started opening up to them about 2 months ago, and now the boys have used it against him by telling BPD mom.

So we are back to being closed, not sharing our lives, and locking up rooms... .what is the point?

[Panda39]

Everyone (counselors) keep telling us that the boys know we will forgive them no matter what; the boys have to do what BPD mom says because she won't forgive them.  That is all fine and dandy, but at the end of the day, how on earth do we ever feel safe in our home with spies there?  

My SO went through this as well and it will take time to build trust again but it can be done.  I know it's hard right now to see that because you are still in the thick of it and continue to be betrayed by the boys.  I know the anger and distrust you feel I have been there.  Keep hanging in there for the boys, take the high road, try to focus on your relationship with them and try not to give mom too much headspace.

(as an aside... .My SO left his undies at my house after a visit  and I texted him to let him know and that information was passed on to uBPDxw by one of my SO's daughters... .Lol  sometimes they should be careful for what they ask for!)

Hang in there and come here and vent away 

Panda39

[ForeverDad]

Everyone (counselors) keep telling us that the boys know we will forgive them no matter what; the boys have to do what BPD mom says because she won't forgive them.

This is a point made in one the chapters in Richard Warshak's Divorce Poison.  They shouldn't have to deal with the unrelenting pressure, slick manipulation and overwhelming demands but many courts allow it, not considering it to have risen to the level of abuse.  Seems there's a low bar for making allegations and a high bar for actually being actionable with consequences.  CPS and court will probably determine it was nothing major and then just move on to the next case, declining to give mother or children consequences.  Whether by design or intent, or not, that's often the result.

The person behaving poorly seldom gets direct consequences and the person behaving well seldom gets direct credit.

By the time 1 to 3 years has passed they both will be adults.  Hopefully all those years with you and DH they will have gained sufficient ability to observe and form valid conclusions.  Whether that foundation will become a part of their values and life sooner or later, only time will tell.  However, they will need those skills when seeking out their own relationship partners.  Will they choose someone like Dad  - or someone like Mom?  Only time will tell.  Making the right/better choice will save them from decades of grief and Gift them decades of stability and love.  Will they listen if you present guidance highlighting the long term benefits and outcomes?

[sanemom]

It would be nice if they would just move on once we go to court on the TRO against my DH based on these false allegations.  By then she will have had them sequestered for a month, and she has filed a motion to modify custody--asking the boys to tell the judge they want to live with her.

And the judge has said in court that he won't tell a teenager where they need to live... .I do think he does sometimes, but that is his party line.

[bravhart1]

What are the odds that after a month with BPDm those boys go running for the hills to escape her crazy?

Even my very indoctrinated SD6 lets it slips after a few extra days with mom that she's glad to be back to the house where everything is calm and normal.

No telling how much of your upbringing has given them enough foundation to see she isn't ok.

From what I observe most PwBPD tend to sabotage themselves. She may not be able to keep up her mother of the year act much longer and those boys might be calling dad before long to get them outta there!

Here's hoping

[Panda39]

What are the odds that after a month with BPDm those boys go running for the hills to escape her crazy?

This could happen especially if it takes you and your husband out of the drama... .where will the BPDmom focus her energy if not on you and your DH?  Could be the kids and in my SO's case the screwed up stuff mom did to their daughters sent them right to their dad.  Both by choice are living with their dad full-time. D19 because she is legally an adult and D14 in spite of the custody agreement (she voted with her feet as ForeverDad likes to say).

Hang in there I know all of this stuff sucks.

Panda39

[sanemom]

I wish I believed that would happen... .despite DSD having to move 7 times in a few years, go through 14 months of utter poverty, etc. she still stayed incredibly loyal to her BPD mom.  Her BPD mom is the waif of all waifs... .she doesn't show her nasty side to her kids.  It is only revealed in her emails to us, etc.  She manipulates them by making them feel things are their ideas.

I do know that with DSD she told her that she would "die" without her.  I am sure DSD didn't want her mom to die so she stayed and, to this day, ignores DH even though she is in college.

[sanemom]

Just wanted to give an update... .

Apparently the boys were convinced (due to BPD mom's histrionics, I am sure) we were illegally using prescription pills and because we were in the wrong for abusing these pills, the boys going into our rooms to get the evidence against us was completely justified.

Well, our hair follicle tests (drug testing the past 90 days) came back all negative.  Now we have proof that the boys were absolutely wrong.

The counselor wants to show them the results, and I can't imagine how they will feel.  I bet it will be so shocking they won't be able to even process it.  They started this whole CPS thing based on a lie, and now there is infallible proof that they were absolutely wrong.  Any ideas what to expect?

Panda, how did you guys get through this? 

[Nope]

My bet is that you are right and they won't be able to process it. Having to take responsibility for framing an innocent parent would be horrific. How badly they respond will be an indicator of how far the alienation has gone.

It sometimes amazes me the way kids don't "see" things. Even things they should be well aware of. In your case they saw exactly what happened with their sister but now it seems like this is magically a whole new ballgame to them and nothing that happened before was real.

We go through this at my house as well. My kid's bio mom lives several states away and, although we always visited when they lived with her, she has flatly told the kids she won't visit them here because she doesn't want to. She never asked for any summer parenting time last summer and most recently she hasn't been taking all of her scheduled phone calls with the kids because she's "busy". The kids have been pretty angry with her and have shown signs of really seeing her selfish behavior for what it is. But then they'll get on the phone with her every once in awhile and then when they are done they suddenly start giving DH a snotty attitude. Like their prior anger at her had been his idea and not their own. It's amazing the mental gymnastics kids will do to protect disordered parents, even from the kids' own anger and hurt feelings.

[Panda39]

Panda, how did you guys get through this? 

I started to write an answer that blew up into something bigger so here is the link to my answer... .my and my SO's story.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=285306.msg12689636#msg12689636

Panda39

[sanemom]

We went to court and lost the boys... .sort of.  They are now with their mom 60% of the time.  The judge DID get that mom was engaging in some severe PA and wants that written on the court order.  The issue is he thinks the kids should be able to decide at their ages so he let them, but he said that if mom does not take them regularly to counseling (with the court ordered counselor) and if their relationship is not good with their dad, we can file a motion to modify in less than a year, and he will see that as a substantial change of circumstances.  

I am pretty sure that BPD mom has no idea what she is doing that is alienating because most of her testimony was that she does not alienate the kids, and then the counselor came up there and testified to a bunch of alienation in just one session in her office.

I have a feeling that when the dust settles on this one, the boys are going to realize that they have been played.  Or maybe I am just too optimistic.  After court, DSS15 DID come up to DH and say that he didn't want to end up like DSD and not have a relationship with him.  I thought that was interesting after he refused to have any contact with this dad this past month (feeling just like DSD to DH).  The boys still don't know the truth about DH and what happened, but the counselor told us to wait.

(sidenote--it is hard for my DD17 because she saw us acting as if nothing happened when the boys came over, and she knows exactly what happened so she is mad at the boys.  The boys had already showed her the pictures of the pill bottles from when they were in our room, and then CPS came and asked her about drugs.  She told me last night that it is one thing to want more time with your mom, it is quite another to make up crap and get CPS involved to get it.  She is not sure how to pretend nothing happened when she is mad at them for putting everyone through this.)

One big thing we have to deal with now is support--BPD mom was only ordered to pay $250/month and she still managed to get years behind.  We will have to pay a ton more than that (close to $2000), and I have no idea what they are going to figure out since the judge just sent the lawyers to figure it out with the state office.  We have three other kids in the home; two are my DDs from a previous marriage, and their dad is a deadbeat, too (yeah, DH and I picked real winners the first time around).  We have college expenses coming up next year.  We are now way in the hole from this legal battle.  And the boys are used to us paying some things that I am sure their mom will not.

One of those things is car insurance for DSS, and it is required for him to be allowed to drive to have car insurance.  BUT he is a teen boy so it is a chunk of change.  Even though we will be paying BPD mom a ton, she is unemployed and has horrible credit (which I think affects your car insurance rate) so she probably won't get any for DSS. 

We had also talked with him about going to a senior trip with his dad that I have no idea how we will be able to afford now because of this mess.  

And we were making payments on a school trip for our other DSS for Spring Break.

So I feel like because of all of the court expenses we are in the hole financially, then we are going to have to pay BPD mom a ton of money every month--what words do we use to tell these kids that we can no longer afford these things for them without sounding like "because of the court case that you guys helped BPD mom start, we have no money anymore" (no, we would NOT say that--I just feel like whatever we say, it could feel like we are saying that to the boys).

[whirlpoollife]

Concerning support... .if the lawyers have to work it out with the state , it would cost more but contest 2k a month. No one needs that much in c/s.

My xh appealed the modification in support  that he wanted so it went to trial. ( still waiting outcome) becaue he does not want to pay any c/s support. He currently is suppose to pay about 500 for two kids. ( it's been maybe 300)  I pay med ins and first 250 each in med expenses and 60% after.   I buy all for kids, expect  car insurance . Xh bought S a vehicle of which I disagreed on the vehicle . (Needs constant work and lots of gas)

Xh felt I should pay S's car insurance . I said no. If I did and then S drove xh's vehicle and got into an accident ... .I would be in court with xh till iterinity because it would be on my ins and another way for him to get money .   And not every teen has a car with ins to drive.  If they do they have to work for all of it. 

If your DH has to pay that amount I would end all paid out expenses for S 's.  Explain in the right way that money is sent to mom to take care of them and they need to ask bio mom for it. 

 for both for all what you are going through.