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Author Topic: Do narcissists grieve?  (Read 4413 times)
Beach_Babe
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« on: October 16, 2015, 03:22:04 PM »

Do NPDs grieve? Not people, but say the loss of particular supply?
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« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2015, 04:12:02 PM »

Do NPDs grieve? Not people, but say the loss of particular supply?

Would you grieve for that stick of gum you chewed, until it lost its flavor and spit it out?

No.

Simply throw it out and chew a new one.

My 02
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« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2015, 04:27:37 PM »

I wish there was a LIKE button on here, Johnny.  As I agree... we are in the rearview, crashed and burning and they drive off whistling a happy tune... .
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« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2015, 04:31:55 PM »

I wish there was a LIKE button on here, Johnny.  As I agree... we are in the rearview, crashed and burning and they drive off whistling a happy tune... .

As sad and sadistic as that sounds, its Horrifically true.

I've been on the receiving end of that. It's baffling, confusing and destroys you from within.
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« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2015, 04:34:47 PM »

I agree with wanting a "like" button,lol   Unfortunately no, they don't care at all... .never did, never will. Really sad for all involved. They are ones to run from for sure... .Mine is BPD/NPD... .the Domestic Violence people said he could even be part sociopath! I can't believe I spent 8 years with this person that cheated on me the whole time, treated me like dirt most of the time and discarded me like I was nothing! Move on, move on, move on as Sam Vaknin says... .watch u-tube videos on Narcs for support. They really help me to understand. It's not us at all... .it is totally them!
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« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2015, 05:22:20 PM »

Do NPDs grieve? Not people, but say the loss of particular supply?

Written by a psychologist with 30 years of experience in dealing with personality disordered BS... .

www.voicelessness.com/disc3//index.php?topic=7981.0;wap2
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« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2015, 05:31:07 PM »

Do NPDs grieve? Not people, but say the loss of particular supply?

Written by a psychologist with 30 years of experience in dealing with personality disordered BS... .

www.voicelessness.com/disc3//index.php?topic=7981.0;wap2

Wow... .powerful article! Now I'm left wondering though, was my partner NPD or BPD? Everything described in there happened to me. But she also uses keywords like "abandonment", "soulmate" and other BPD typical lingo.

I guess BPD also idealize and then devalue and discard, so I'm not sure I see the difference between the two disorders?
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« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2015, 05:42:58 PM »

Do NPDs grieve? Not people, but say the loss of particular supply?

Written by a psychologist with 30 years of experience in dealing with personality disordered BS... .

www.voicelessness.com/disc3//index.php?topic=7981.0;wap2

That was spot on. It has taken me YEARS AND YEARS to realize I have attracted MOSTLY personality disordered men and continue to after all I have learned.  And trust me, I have done tons of research, one on one counseling, etc.  So, I have chosen to give up after this last one.  No dating for me.

Every one of them as as described above.  It truly boggles the mind.
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« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2015, 05:44:02 PM »

They are now saying they are intertwined anyway... .It's hard to know the difference.
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Beach_Babe
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« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2015, 07:17:25 PM »

The only thing that stopped my ex from being diagnosed NPD, according to the psychiatrist, was the insurance not paying. Since he also self-injured (for attention) they called it BPD.

I was in denial about this for a very long time.
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« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2015, 07:33:27 PM »

What were you in denial with?
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« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2015, 07:43:41 PM »

The only thing that stopped my ex from being diagnosed NPD, according to the psychiatrist, was the insurance not paying. Since he also self-injured (for attention) they called it BPD.

I was in denial about this for a very long time.

This is the kind of stuff I can't and will never understand. There is a reason why the insurance doesn't wanna pay for the NPD treatment. That's because according to a whole lot of psychiatrists, treating NPD is waste of time and money for everybody involved. So, what is the point in knowingly misdiagnosing somebody if the treatment you are going to provide will do NOTHING to help. What a psychiatrist should have done is to take Beach Babe outside point to the door and tell her "RUN!"
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« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2015, 08:06:28 PM »

Wow... .powerful article! Now I'm left wondering though, was my partner NPD or BPD? Everything described in there happened to me. But she also uses keywords like "abandonment", "soulmate" and other BPD typical lingo.

I guess BPD also idealize and then devalue and discard, so I'm not sure I see the difference between the two disorders?

Personality Disorders often come in multiples. So, a BPD person can have shades of NPD in him or her. What makes them to show up at different times? No way to tell and no way to make sense out of senseless. Which brings me to the next point.

In the grand scheme of things, it should make zero difference for you what shade of Cluster B you dealt with. Why? Because no matter what shade it was, first and foremost, you dealt with a seriously psychologically and mentally damaged individual. The type only gives you an idea how serious it was and if there was a very remote chance of that person to get better. It basically goes like this. BPD - with a whole lot of psychological help (years), there is a bit of a chance that the person can get his or her demons under control. Anything else - the person is just too damaged, too scorched inside to be human, no matter what you do. That is all. Causes are often the same, behavior is often the same, it's just some people's psyche breaks way deeper and in a different way than others'. All things considered, you are basically splitting hairs when you try to pin point what exactly you dealt with. And that brings me to the last point.

I think a whole lot of people would rather go with the BPD idea because, frankly, it is easier to accept and stomach. Compare the following two paragraphs.

"He/she loved me with all her heart. I meant everything to him/her. In the end her fear of abandonment kicked in and she walked away because she was too afraid to be left alone"

And now this

"He/she never felt a damn thing for me. Everything she did was out of horrible boredom, pure entertainment for her. He/she did everything she could to find out my buttons and how to push them. Once I couldn't provide enough entertainment, he/she dropped me and found a new source of entertainment"

You tell me which one most people would rather go with.

In the end, all of this doesn't matter. You can only save you. You can only heal you. You can only do one thing when you deal with mentally ill people - walk away.
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« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2015, 08:15:46 PM »

I agree... .mine is a cutter and NPD's wouldn't do that is my understanding too... .strange how he can have all of the NPD traits as well. And yes... .I would rather think he loved me some rather than not at all! He said he really did... .He just said too much had happened between us and that we needed time apart. Very strange... .He was the one that did all the "too much"! He said even if we divorce, we can always get back together. He is a pathological liar... .I am beginning to think I am don with relationships! I don't think I want to deal with this anymore! I have been through way to many and they never work out! I am sticking with friendships only... .
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« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2015, 11:39:43 PM »

Do NPDs grieve? Not people, but say the loss of particular supply?

Say they don't, for whatever reason. What do you do? What can you do for you, regardless of him?
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« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2015, 02:07:25 AM »

Wow... .powerful article! Now I'm left wondering though, was my partner NPD or BPD? Everything described in there happened to me. But she also uses keywords like "abandonment", "soulmate" and other BPD typical lingo.

I guess BPD also idealize and then devalue and discard, so I'm not sure I see the difference between the two disorders?

Personality Disorders often come in multiples. So, a BPD person can have shades of NPD in him or her. What makes them to show up at different times? No way to tell and no way to make sense out of senseless. Which brings me to the next point.

In the grand scheme of things, it should make zero difference for you what shade of Cluster B you dealt with. Why? Because no matter what shade it was, first and foremost, you dealt with a seriously psychologically and mentally damaged individual. The type only gives you an idea how serious it was and if there was a very remote chance of that person to get better. It basically goes like this. BPD - with a whole lot of psychological help (years), there is a bit of a chance that the person can get his or her demons under control. Anything else - the person is just too damaged, too scorched inside to be human, no matter what you do. That is all. Causes are often the same, behavior is often the same, it's just some people's psyche breaks way deeper and in a different way than others'. All things considered, you are basically splitting hairs when you try to pin point what exactly you dealt with. And that brings me to the last point.

I think a whole lot of people would rather go with the BPD idea because, frankly, it is easier to accept and stomach. Compare the following two paragraphs.

"He/she loved me with all her heart. I meant everything to him/her. In the end her fear of abandonment kicked in and she walked away because she was too afraid to be left alone"

And now this

"He/she never felt a damn thing for me. Everything she did was out of horrible boredom, pure entertainment for her. He/she did everything she could to find out my buttons and how to push them. Once I couldn't provide enough entertainment, he/she dropped me and found a new source of entertainment"

You tell me which one most people would rather go with.

In the end, all of this doesn't matter. You can only save you. You can only heal you. You can only do one thing when you deal with mentally ill people - walk away.

Hi invictus,

What you say is spot on! It is nicer to believe our ex partners were just too emotional and insecure and scared to have a relationship than to believe they intentionally tried to hurt us and there feelings were all an act.

How does anyone really know what they are? It seems they act the same but the reason behind it is different. They may turn up at your house with flowers begging you back and say they are suicidal without you. A borderline would say this because at the time they feel it to be true as their emotional feelings are so intense. But a narcissist wouldn't have any feeling, they just think it will be easier to get you back than to charm and find a new person to do everything and pretend to be suicidal to promote guilt. How do we ever know there reason when the behaviour is the same?

This is what I find most difficult. Not knowing whether my ex was BPD or npd. If it was BPD I would at least feel empathy for him and wish him well, but if its npd I would fight back more when hes being nasty because I would know he was intentionally trying to hurt me just for his own gain.

I disagree that npds dont grieve though. A child would grieve its favourite toy until something else came along. Npds are controlling, I think they grieve not being in control anymore if you leave them. Im not sure, it is hard to tell. My ex sent over 20 emails saying he loved me, he was crying all of the time, that he hated me, he never liked me and that he used me within a 6 week period. It looks like he is grieving but maybe he is just messaging when he wants attention or is bored.
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« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2015, 02:48:49 AM »

Klacey

You mention that if it was BPD you would feel empathy but if NPD you wouldn't.

Surely someone who has an affliction that they never asked for should be given empathy no matter what it is?

Do you think this could be more about your self esteem than the person with the disorder?

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« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2015, 07:11:48 AM »

Do NPDs grieve? Not people, but say the loss of particular supply?

I'm not sure I understand the question - grieving loss of particular supply?

Are you really asking "is my ex grieving the loss of me?"

Let's break this down... .

First., lets forget about Personality Disorders.

What do people grieve?  Generally, the loss of something they don't want to lose.

What happens a lover falls out of love and exits the relationship? The relationship has become low on the list of things they don't want to lose. So, lovers that leave do not grieve like the lover that wanted to stay.

What happens if we then over-pursue the leaving lover? We lower the likelihood that they will grieve because we tell them they haven't lost us - they can have us back at any time.

This is normal.

Now what happens when a person with a BPD leaves? They are going to go the extra mile not to be vulnerable - or trigger any self loathing.  One way to do that is just walk away.  Avoid having to explain and be told it was their fault or that they were being unfair or that they were misleading.  They avoid the vulnerability and that is hard for us to deal with.

This makes a hard situation, harder.

And back to the original question, do people with NPD traits grieve?  Absolutely - take something away that they care deeply about and they will grieve. Remember, some of members have NPD traits - NPD ~ BPD pairings are common - we see the grieving here.




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« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2015, 08:29:45 AM »

Klacey

You mention that if it was BPD you would feel empathy but if NPD you wouldn't.

Surely someone who has an affliction that they never asked for should be given empathy no matter what it is?

Do you think this could be more about your self esteem than the person with the disorder?

I just don't see why they deserve for us to care about them if they never cared about us and deliberately tried to put us down for their own entertainment. They know what they were doing. If a paedophile raped my child i wouldnt feel empathy for them even though they can't help being attracted to children.

A narcissist is selfish and nasty for person gain. They pretend to have feelings they dont have. A person with borderline at least feels a bit of remorse for what they do and emotionally struggle with ever changing emotions. They don't set out to hurt people.
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« Reply #19 on: October 17, 2015, 10:23:43 AM »

And back to the original question, do people with NPD traits grieve?  Absolutely

Are we sure about that, Skip? As a VNC myself, the most important revelation I had post break up was that never I actually went through the abandonment depression required to properly grieve a lost attachment, just like my BPDex never went through that stage. One could that it was the perfect match for the disordered dance to come.

That said, pwNPD can be indeed injured by a lost attachment to an extent that they actually cease to function on the very basic level. It's as painful as it can get, but it's not grief, rather a longing for the lost ideal mirroring and retreating into narccistic withdrawal or anger/co-rumination as way to earn sympathy for the alleged humiliation(vexatious litigation, various forms of smear campaigns, etc).

That injury can eventually lead to the path of recovery as we've witnessed that many times over the years.
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« Reply #20 on: October 17, 2015, 10:57:11 AM »

Boris, I think you are referring to healthy recuperative grieving vs unrecuperative grieving and your point is valid.

My comment was in the very narrow context of the OP - does a person with narcissistic tendencies not suffer and feel loss - or in this specific case, does the person walking from the relationship feel loss (like the person who wanted to stay in).

You point would make a good thread on PI.

Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #21 on: October 17, 2015, 11:03:18 AM »

Denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance are the basic stages of grieving. Being human, most of us go through our personal forms of this when the time comes. Speaking for myself, I've grieved in different ways during different situations. Depending on the depths of the intimacy and loss, as well as other factors. As difficult as it is for someone with a disorder to handle positives in life, it's also difficult to deal with negatives. Too much shutting down on either side of that would lead to cutting off the potential growth, precluding the healthiest actions and benefits of either. Which unfortunately happens too often (disordered or not).
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« Reply #22 on: October 21, 2015, 11:41:15 PM »

Johnny: Yeah a wad of used gum, that sounds about right. Hey how are you doing? I was at Walgreens the other day and thought of you Laugh out loud (click to insert in post).

I wish there was a LIKE button on here, Johnny.  As I agree... we are in the rearview, crashed and burning and they drive off whistling a happy tune... .

Karma is alive and well my friend. That "happiness" is fleeting.

BlueHeron: Domestic violence? Wow. *hugs*  Was that an everyday thing? Mine got physical a few times. At 300+ pounds he could crush me if he wanted to. Luckily he saw more interest in a nearby tub of ice cream or ham.

Invictus01: Great article. I often wonder how I could be so blind?



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Beach_Babe
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« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2015, 06:40:18 AM »

LostGhost: I think the primary difference between BPD and NPD is the end goal. BPDs mirrors to form attachments because they lack a sense of self. This same desire to bond, paradoxically is also what drives them to flee. It is because they most fear abandonment. Most BPDs actually DO possess a degree of empathy; they are not heartless souls. Their emotions are  so disregulated, they cannot help themselves. I do believe they experience periods of remorse and do not purposefully cause harm.

NPDs, on the other hand, mirror to gain admiration and attention. They manipulate, but never attach. They are not self defeating like the borderline, and often appear grandiose. They also are incapable of any type of remorse or empathy. When they hurt people, they do it with pleasure and on purpose. I have no empathy for these people, but I do feel compassion for the BPD. I really believe they just cannot help it.

sirensong:  I don't think you should give up just yet!  You seem like such an intelligent and compassionate woman. There is someone "normal" out there for both of us i'm sure.

Mutt: I was in denial he was NPD (or, at the very least, comorbid). I knew he had problems, but never dreamed he would be capable of such cruelty. I grieve the loss of the person I thought I knew.

Invictus: The diagnosis matters because I cannot have empathy for a sadist.

BlueHeron: you mentioned your ex was a cutter... .mine hit his head. Laugh out loud (click to insert in post). Is it possible he only did it for attention?

Turkish: Great question!  I think what I can do is move forward. The personal inventory board has been a great help. My goal is to move away from obsessing about HIM and do the work necessary to improve myself.

klacey:  I agree with you on the diagnosis part. Are you still in contact? He seems so abusive  hon it really worries me.

Skip:  That is interesting, and it makes sense. The only time I saw anything close to "grief" in narc was when they were dumped first. So, in a way isn't that more of a control thing? I do not think they are capable of feeling love. My ex himself used to say that. Stupid me I did not heed the warning.

Boris:  What is VNC? 

myself:  do you think your ex grieved for you?  I am not saying they are inhuman, just that its not "grieving" the way we experience it.

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« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2015, 03:39:00 PM »

myself:  do you think your ex grieved for you?  I am not saying they are inhuman, just that its not "grieving" the way we experience it.

Knowing some of how she dealt with such things in her past, she most likely just blamed me, buried it away/didn't face it but still feels haunted by it.
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« Reply #25 on: October 24, 2015, 02:58:21 PM »

The domestic violence wasn't everyday, but some form of interrogation or gas lighting or put downs were. The cutting could have been for show at times, but lots of times he did it when he was alone. Sometimes it was for help when he would act suicidal. The police told me one time that one time that they were with him they really felt he wanted to die. I don't know, he is a pretty good liar.
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« Reply #26 on: October 24, 2015, 03:05:08 PM »

The domestic violence wasn't everyday, but some form of interrogation or gas lighting or put downs were. The cutting could have been for show at times, but lots of times he did it when he was alone. Sometimes it was for help when he would act suicidal. The police told me one time that one time that they were with him they really felt he wanted to die. I don't know, he is a pretty good liar.

Hi blueheron,

Sorry to hear about the domestic violence

What makes you think the self harm/suicide was for show?
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