to block or not to block

[Beach_Babe]

So its been 6 months NC, and my ex has been unresponsive to my efforts to reach out. Not even for a friendship, but simply for peace. I am stuck. Sure I no longer get hysterical, but the pain is a persistent ache. Every. Single. Day. I unblocked facebook, email and the phone 4 months ago but there is nothing (and probably will never be).

Should I reblock it all again? Maybe the hope he will contact is whats keeping me stuck?

[stacma04]

Beach babe, personally I've done this countless times, block/unblock/block for about 2 months. with not a word from him. I've been 4 months NC now, and I havent tried to reach out to him etc. I had to get in the mindset that you cannt play their game. I ended up leaving my FB unblocked, at this point I could care less if he looks or not. If you decide to block him, make sure your doing it for the right reasons which is to heal and detach not to get a response from him. and if you dont block him you can still go NC, just don't reach out to him. That's what he wants you to do. Just let them be, I've learned that. When he's ready to make contact he will, but at that point you will be strong enough to know if that's someone you want back in your life. you have to be a good friend in order to have a good relationship with someone, and if he wasn't good in the relationship how can he be any good as a real friend?

[lunchbox123]

I feel that blocking someone gives me rest and peace of mind. My heart no longer jumps a beat when I get a message hoping that it may be them.

You having blocked them isn't what's stopping them from reaching out, if they really wanted to they'd figure a way around it. Although if they see you block and unblocked them it may trigger an "artificial" response, not necessarily based on them wanting to reach but because you triggered it. But from what you're saying it seems like this is what you're actually hoping for.

[Beach_Babe]

if you dont block him you can still go NC, just don't reach out to him. That's what he wants you to do. Just let them

How can you be so sure? It appears I am but a forgotten memory and a bad one at that.

I feel that blocking someone gives me rest and peace of mind. My heart no longer jumps a beat when I get a message hoping that it may be them... .Although if they see you block and unblocked them it may trigger an "artificial" response, not necessarily based on them wanting to reach but because you triggered it. But from what you're saying it seems like this is what you're actually hoping for.

I don't honestly think he looks. He has moved on, and I feel pathetic at 6 months out for not doing the same. I hoped for a civil end but thats not going to happen. What has been your experience?

[stacma04]

For me I've been NC for about 4 months now, I've looked a few times and it has set me back every time. Your best bet is to just let everything play in time. You need to take this time to heal and focus on you. My ex could care less what's going on with me because he's engaged and thinks that he's happy. I suspect the same is for you. They compartmentalizate everything. If he has supply right now he's too busy trying to appear normal. The only way to take control is to stay NC and soon him that your not hurting easier said than done, he'll end up treating this girl probably worst than he did you

[Fr4nz]

So its been 6 months NC, and my ex has been unresponsive to my efforts to reach out. Not even for a friendship, but simply for peace. I am stuck. Sure I no longer get hysterical, but the pain is a persistent ache. Every. Single. Day. I unblocked facebook, email and the phone 4 months ago but there is nothing (and probably will never be).

Should I reblock it all again? Maybe the hope he will contact is whats keeping me stuck?

Yes, this is malignant hope and is keeping you stuck. You have to go forward, to detach. If blocking him helps you to detach, do it. And keep dating the other man! He seems a good man!

Anyway, don't beat yourself up!   Detaching from an exBPD is very difficult (see the quote below) and takes more time than breakups of normal r/ss. BUT, and this is the good news, in the end you'll get more wise and you'll manage much better future relationships (and you'll also spot and avoid people with red flags).

Also, read this thing some years ago 2010 posted about limerance (a condition you are "suffering" now)... .it is very interesting.

(BPD) is not about reality. Borderline is about fantasy. It is about yearning. It is a thought disorder (a belief system) that one will find the perfect true love, the soulmate in order to fuse to and be carried throughout life, enmeshed together. In a sense it is about the entitlement of a small child who doesn't know how to grow up. The child cries and cries about being alone and then once picked up and carried cries and cries to get free. In a sense BPD's don't know how to get what they want- but between these two polar opposites is intense *yearning* which is obsessive.

What you are experiencing in the aftermath of a break-up is also yearning, but it swings from *hope* to *uncertainty* which causes obsessive thought.  :)orothy Tennov calls this the state of "limerance." Limerance is often brought into object relations theory as an infatuation for an object.

It's really about objectification of an object and what the object can do for you- but stay with me here and let me explain:

Mirroring reenacts childhood dynamics of Mother's gaze. That's when you <<feel>> most loved as an infant. Your tiny brain is growing quickly and very plastic and trying to make sense of the feelings from Mother's gaze. Our tiny brains sort out and file the feeling away where it remains until the adult brain can recall it at a later time.

When a BPD mirrors in order to attach to us, they reactivate this coda from childhood. When the BPD goes away they take with them the catalyst for the activation- and this creates a tremendous, obsessive desire for their return. Tennov calls this being in a state of limerance with the BPD being your "limerant object."

When your limerant object goes away with someone else- you obsess over the idea that you will never feel this way again *and* you maintain a vigil of hope balanced against uncertainty. The more hope, the less uncertainty. The more uncertainty, the less hope. You can see how this might create a OCD like thought process of obsessive evaluation. One can scan for clues by checking the daily barometer of the ex-partner's new relationship which only fuels the obsession. Facebook, google, etc. etc.

Comparing oneself to the new partner: are you greater than or less than? In your mind the answer gives you either hope or uncertainty and keeps you deep in the obsessive limerance toward the return of your limerant object.

Tennov did research on the many destructive tendencies of people in limerance. It's intrusive cognitive components, the obsessional quality that may feel voluntary but yet defies control are aspects of the state of limerance. Limerance is an involuntary state- so when well meaning friends and family tell you to *get over it* and just move on - they aren't addressing how to solve the infatuation that remains like a flu.

Most people suffering from limerance agreed that they might not have put so much energy into hope for their limerant object's return if they knew success was impossible from the start- but they couldn't be made to feel any other way until they realized that Borderlines LIVE in limerant FANTASY. That fantasy world is an escape and Borderlines use it to shirk personal responsibility. Limerance expects understanding (often in the form of an apology from the limerant object.) Again, this is fantasy. Do not hold out hope for one.

Realize that limerance is involuntary. It will only fade if you let hope fizzle for your limerant object's return and place a certain boundary that stops the uncertainty. Easier said than done, but necessary if you want to heal. Cry. Kick a Can. Feel terrible.  As Tennov writes: " Recognize too, that once the gates of your limerant object's mind are closed on someone else- and against you- the hope you need to fuel your own passion must run dry. With this recognition you may end your limerance and reconstruct your life."  Hope this helps.

Beach, I'd like to ask you also a thing: do you think to have BPD traits?

[Fr4nz]

Sorry, double post... .anyway, I want to seize the opportunity to say another thing: your ex seems the cut-off type; even my ex BPD/HPD belongs to that type, and for several months I hoped for her comeback (even up to this day I have this fleeting idea... .sometimes. Luckily, I'm almost fully functional in my life nowadays).

However, once you realize the way BPDs psyche works (and you keep in mind that they are NOT monsters!), you really realize that there's NO chance that a r/s with them can work in the long run; even our replacements will face the same fate; we were also replacements of other former partners. 2010 once said that BPD is an equal opportunities disorder, and this is indeed true!

Anyhow, I understand that the hearth usually comes after our rational part (this holds for me as well)... .but it is very important that you first realize from a logical and rational point of view how BPDs minds work and why r/s with them cannot simply work (... .OR they become a nightmare if the NON is somehow miraculously able to stay).

In this sense, you may want to read all 2010's post, they are very insightful about how BPDs psyche works: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?action=profile;u=38193;sa=showPosts

Take care  

[JohnnyShoes]

Sorry, double post... .anyway, I want to seize the opportunity to say another thing: your ex seems the cut-off type; even my ex BPD/HPD belongs to that type, and for several months I hoped for her comeback (even up to this day I have this fleeting idea... .sometimes).

However, once you realize the way BPDs psyche works (and you keep in mind that they are NOT monsters!), you really realize that there's NO chance that a r/s with them can work in the long run; even our replacements will face the same fate; we were also replacements of other former partners. 2010 once said that BPD is an equal opportunities disorder, and this is indeed true!

Anyhow, I understand that the hearth usually comes after our rational part (this holds for me as well)... .but it is very important that you realize this from a logical point of view first.

In this sense, you may want to read all 2010's post, they are very insightful about how BPDs psyche works: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?action=profile;u=38193;sa=showPosts

So Fr4nz,

If there's "No Chance" that a relationship with them can work out, why don't you share this with the 'Staying group who have pledge to work it out with their BPD SO.

There's so much that is not known of BPD. So when I read people saying things like "No Chance"... .I take it with a grain... .

[Fr4nz]

Sorry, double post... .anyway, I want to seize the opportunity to say another thing: your ex seems the cut-off type; even my ex BPD/HPD belongs to that type, and for several months I hoped for her comeback (even up to this day I have this fleeting idea... .sometimes).

However, once you realize the way BPDs psyche works (and you keep in mind that they are NOT monsters!), you really realize that there's NO chance that a r/s with them can work in the long run; even our replacements will face the same fate; we were also replacements of other former partners. 2010 once said that BPD is an equal opportunities disorder, and this is indeed true!

Anyhow, I understand that the hearth usually comes after our rational part (this holds for me as well)... .but it is very important that you realize this from a logical point of view first.

In this sense, you may want to read all 2010's post, they are very insightful about how BPDs psyche works: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?action=profile;u=38193;sa=showPosts

So Fr4nz,

If there's "No Chance" that a relationship with them can work out, why don't you share this with the 'Staying group who have pledge to work it out with their BPD SO.

There's so much that is not known of BPD. So when I read people saying things like "No Chance"... .I take it with a grain... .

Well, you're right, I should have been more specific: if they don't enter therapy and they will stay in the r/s, in the vast majority of cases it will be hell at a certain point. For sure, tools like SET can work very well, but without therapy the likely outcome is still extremely grim; on the other hand, if they enter therapy, then you have a real chance that the r/s will work.

Anyway, beach babe's case is very clear, so the first scenario applies... .

PS: the no-chance statement is based on the vast academic literature available and on the hundreds of cases you can read in forums like this.

[JohnnyShoes]

Sorry, double post... .anyway, I want to seize the opportunity to say another thing: your ex seems the cut-off type; even my ex BPD/HPD belongs to that type, and for several months I hoped for her comeback (even up to this day I have this fleeting idea... .sometimes).

However, once you realize the way BPDs psyche works (and you keep in mind that they are NOT monsters!), you really realize that there's NO chance that a r/s with them can work in the long run; even our replacements will face the same fate; we were also replacements of other former partners. 2010 once said that BPD is an equal opportunities disorder, and this is indeed true!

Anyhow, I understand that the hearth usually comes after our rational part (this holds for me as well)... .but it is very important that you realize this from a logical point of view first.

In this sense, you may want to read all 2010's post, they are very insightful about how BPDs psyche works: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?action=profile;u=38193;sa=showPosts

So Fr4nz,

If there's "No Chance" that a relationship with them can work out, why don't you share this with the 'Staying group who have pledge to work it out with their BPD SO.

There's so much that is not known of BPD. So when I read people saying things like "No Chance"... .I take it with a grain... .

Well, you're right, I should have been more specific: if they don't enter therapy and they will stay in the r/s, in the vast majority of cases it will be hell at a certain point. For sure, tools like SET can work very well, but without therapy the likely outcome is still extremely grim; on the other hand, if they enter therapy, then you have a real chance that the r/s will work.

Anyway, beach babe's case is very clear, so the first scenario applies... .

PS: the no-chance statement is based on the vast academic literature available and on the hundreds of cases you can read in forums like this.

Thanks Fr4nz for the reply!

[Beach_Babe]

For me I've been NC for about 4 months now, I've looked a few times and it has set me back every time. Your best bet is to just let everything play in time. You need to take this time to heal and focus on you. My ex could care less what's going on with me because he's engaged and thinks that he's happy. I suspect the same is for you. They compartmentalizate everything. If he has supply right now he's too busy trying to appear normal. The only way to take control is to stay NC and soon him that your not hurting easier said than done, he'll end up treating this girl probably worst than he did you

That is great advice, thank you. Is facebook how you determined the ex was engaged? How awful!

franz: Traits yes, BPD no. I was diagnosed with ADHD/OCD as a kid, but my social difficulties are so severe (despite a very high level of education) I suspect I may be on the autism spectrum. My mother was BPD however, and my father a malignant narcissist.

[Skip]

However, once you realize the way BPDs psyche works (and you keep in mind that they are NOT monsters!), you really realize that there's NO chance that a r/s with them can work in the long run; even our replacements will face the same fate; we were also replacements of other former partners.

Just a quick comment so as not to hijack... .

Fr4nz, the above statement assumes that the ex's on this site are all operating at a reasonably high point on the BPD spectrum and that is probably not a reasonable assumption - many of the exs do not have the tell tale signs of advanced BPD.

If we want to discuss it further, lets open a thread on "Questions" and walk through it. Back to the OP... .

Beach_Babe, as much as you are struggling, you are also making progress.  I'd try to seize on those things that are helping you and stay away from those that are tormenting you.

Isn't asking him to contact you and then blocking Facebook is confusing to you? Isn't telling him you don't expect a response and getting upset for not getting one confusing to you? It will be to others, too. You are fighting yourself here.

The realization needed here is that you can't do superficial things like write emails, block Facebook, have a fling, that are going to heal you.  You have slog it out and do it step by step.  You need to have the impatience that forces you to act and at the same time the patience for healing to take place.

Facebook is a superficial thing. Has blocking it helped you? Has unblocking it helped you? Has push helped? Has pull helped?

You have to get on a life track that isn't based on him. It can leave the door open, but it shouldn't be about you sitting in the window box waiting.  The fact is, even if he did comeback, your resentments are so high (and rightfully so) that as a couple you'd both struggle to heal them. And then there is 2,000 miles... .

[Fr4nz]

Fr4nz, the above statement assumes that the ex's on this site are all operating at a reasonably high point on the BPD spectrum and that is probably not a reasonable assumption - many of the exs do not have the tell tale signs of advanced BPD.

If we want to discuss it further, lets open a thread on "Questions" and walk through it. Back to the OP... .

Sure Skip! However, if I remember correctly there was even a pie-chart (or a poll... .) in the site - some time ago - which was showing how in the 99% of cases these relationships are doomed in the long run... .

You have to get on a life track that isn't based on him. It can leave the door open, but it shouldn't be about you sitting in the window box waiting.  The fact is, even if he did comeback, your resentments are so high (and rightfully so) that as a couple you'd both struggle to heal them. And then there is 2,000 miles... .

I second what Skip said: Beach, focus on yourself. Moreover you said that:

franz: Traits yes, BPD no. I was diagnosed with ADHD/OCD as a kid, but my social difficulties are so severe (despite a very high level of education) I suspect I may be on the autism spectrum. My mother was BPD however, and my father a malignant narcissist.

Again, I cannot stress out once more how much insightful are 2010's posts. In many of her posts she said that relationships with BPDs can be extremely positive life-changing experiences, if we are able to look at our problems, correlate them with the problems we had in our family of origin and tackle them with a therapist. What you said about the issues with your family of origin is remarkable: work on these and you'll get much better!  

I want to report something 2010 said exactly about the matter:

The person *you thought you were* - the person who no longer exists. It has been replaced by an ~authentic~ human being, with a greater self-realization of reality and awareness of the pitfalls of fantasy. In truth- we are becoming wisdom.

This is what therapy is all about. You go in to an office and talk to a complete stranger about perceptions of reality and methods of dealing with difficulty. For most of us, the intimacy in a one hour chat isn't enough to trigger a complete breakdown of who you think you are. It's only in the self trusting, complete intimacy of mirroring- that we let down our guard. And we do that when we think people understand us. When we come across a person who idealizes, mirrors and unfortunately has a hidden personalized (its all about them!) agenda in mind- it shakes our very foundations of who we are and who we trust. And it is exactly the reason why we get pulled in and involved with a person that mirrors us, idealizes us, and then devalues us. They steal our false self and then deride it, but we've allowed it to happen. They shame us.

Because our false self served us so well in the past, we fight to get it back and clean it up- and the fight and struggle is what nearly kills us.

It is a transference that normally would have taken place in a therapist's office- If it would have happened at all- after *decades* of therapy. The speed involved is frightening (often after a few months)- and the loss of control is demoralizing. That's why some people think of this as a great gift. It's almost as though they peeled off a great scab that had covered a pre-existing wound. A wound that we thought we had taken care of a long time ago. We can only have this happen IF we allow someone to get very, VERY close.

The good news is- you transferred your reaction formation of a false self onto the BPD and came away with a realization. The bad news is: Your BPD partner did *not* learn a thing.

James F. Masterson says, that the Borderline is *not able* to respond to analysis, because they are *not able* to form a transference relationship with the therapist. I would add, that they are not able to be in healthy relationships, because they are not able to complete a transference with the partner without regressing.

In other words, they could project onto you, but "could not see you as a separate, complete individual with both postive and negative qualities." You however, could see positive and negative in them. And in spite of that false persona they may have mirrored- you've now come away from this and are able to see things in a completely different light.

According to Masterson, "A pre-requisite for a relationship was "an alliance" with the explicit understanding that two people are working together to help achieve a mature insight into any problems and the means to alleviate them."

But this is impossible to accomplish with a mirrored false self that's shared between two people. While your false self (listen, no one is *that* perfect) is being idealized by your partner, it's also being placed further and further from reality. And the further and further it's placed from reality- the more YOU become aware that it's not really *who you are.*

"The Borderlines problem arises from the developmental arrest of the ego and from defenses constructed against the abandonment depression when the real self emerges."  That's their own real self- but it also applies to you as well. Their fear of their own true self is what keeps them focused on your false self. By mirroring you and idealizing you, they undermine your real self and force you to defend your false self when things start to go downhill.

There is a withdrawing persona and a rewarding persona in Borderline. The rewarding persona is concerned with immediate pleasure rather than long term stability- and it reverts to regressive behavior that is activated by your "borrowed" false self. *THEIR* false self is so much more baby-like, infantile, submissive, masochistic, clinging. And concentrating on fantasy keeps them away from recognizing their own true reality (being.)

"The partner is not treated as a separate person upon whom the BPD displaces infantile feelings for the purpose of understanding them and working them out- but as a kind of maternal figure on who the BPD can engage in a kind of instant replay of the abandonment scenarios from childhood. Without realizing it, the BPD drags past and present and projects them onto the partner."

So your false self is very valuable- and they work it in a form of "reunion fantasy" whenever you have limited contact and they fear you are taking it away. This gives you the hope that you will become shared keepers of the false self again. But it's only a matter of time before reality sets in and hits you over the head. The false self has to go... .it cannot be maintained. It has to be shelved- this time for good. You are no longer that person anymore.

I hope I explained this well enough to understand. Most of it can be found in Masterson's book, "The search for the real self." His explanations, I'm sure, are much better than mine.

[itgirl]

WOW!  That was very insightful.  Everyone keeps on saying to read 2010s posts.  Well I'm listening now! 

[Hopeful83]

Fr4nz, the above statement assumes that the ex's on this site are all operating at a reasonably high point on the BPD spectrum and that is probably not a reasonable assumption - many of the exs do not have the tell tale signs of advanced BPD.

Sorry to hijack, but what are the tell tale signs of advanced BPD?

[Suspicious1]

Beach_Babe, I am in exactly the same place as you, except I'm nearly 18 months down the line (it hurts far less these days). I did the block/unblock game, and as I was doing it I realised that even that sent a message. Why block someone who really means nothing to you? I figured that if I blocked him, he'd think I cared on some level. And, of course, he'd be right.

My strategy is to just leave well alone. I too reached out fairly recently to friend him on Facebook, and the result was that he declined the request, then changed his settings so that anyone who isn't a friend-of-a-friend can't send him a request. That's a pretty clear signal that he doesn't want me trying to befriend him again.

That said, he hasn't blocked me. Seriously, I'd have thought if he was that bothered about erasing me from his life or sending me a strong message of some kind, I'd have thought he'd have blocked me across all sites, but he hasn't. He just defriended me, declined the friend request I sent, and left it at that.

I don't spend every day (anymore) hoping he'll contact; my heart doesn't jump every time I get a message, hoping it's from him. I don't think about that any more at all. But if I did block him, I know I'd be thinking "what if he's tried to contact me?", and that would drive me even more mad.

I'm not sure if he looks at my profile either. Maybe he does and that's why he hasn't blocked me, but I doubt it. Like you, I feel that I'm nothing more than a bad memory. I can't change that. The reason I don't block is about what I've found aids my own peace of mind. In a way, having him unblocked and knowing he's not trying to contact me is helping me stick to reality and move on.

[Mr Hollande]

My rule for blocking is that it's forever. Anything else sends a signal that they still have a hold on us. I took a while before blocking mine on FB, partly for retaliation, but after one PM too many I was ready to end the game so on the list she went.

My advice when you're ready, only block once, do not unblock and whatever you do do not contact them. Not for anything. Be consistent, make every move count.

[toddinrochester]

I have blocked mine on FB messenger but not FB. My thinking is that I won't look at her profile because of the potential it has to set me back and also it's a small victory for me. I can look. I just have determined the pain caused in the past can be avoided in the future. So I won't. I feel like I am more in control and that she isn't shaping or dictating my life anymore. Small personal victories add up.

[nowwhatz]

I block but find it does not work 100% especially if there are mutual friends and multiple social media platforms. Not worth all the time and effort to maintain blocking.  On the phone there are some great blocking apps but if they change their number they can still get through... .and if somebody really wants to make contact and is determined they will do so, even if we live in Antarctica.

So far the most effective form of blocking for me was to make the breakup especially ugly and insulting... .try to make myself unattractive to her.  Not what I wanted to do but what I had to do. Going on 9 months now of NC and counting.

[coletown11]

Im about 4 months out from being dumped out of the blue. I actually started no contact immediately, and have stuck to it. for the first few months I didn't bother blocking phone/email/facebook because 1. as someone stated above, I didn't want to make it seem like I cared, and 2. I was hoping to get contacted.

what helped at first was "unfollowing" her and all of our mutual friends on facebook. that way I don't have to block her but in order to see what she was up to I would have to actually go to her page, which I never did.

however, over time I would go back to obsessively checking out my email and facebook page to see if she contacted me. I also kept checking to see if she was somehow checking out my page ( I read a few articles on line, probably not accurate but I just wanted to see any sign she cared)

this was clearly unhealthy for me and was a hindrance on my progress. so when I finally got to this point, where I could justify doing this solely for myself and not to hurt her or get a response I blocked her on everything. hard and sad at first but I knew immediately it was the right decision.

[Skip]

Sure Skip! However, if I remember correctly there was even a pie-chart (or a poll... .) in the site - some time ago - which was showing how in the 99% of cases these relationships are doomed in the long run... .

We do not have a survey like that... .it would be like going to a divorce board and asking how many people are happy... .

Many of the partners here are at a subclinical range for the disorder - BPD light - and that is a challenge enough - but we don't have to hype it up.  

What is more important for us than labeling healthy and malignant is for use to see that we were not a good match for this personality type. Yet many of us are attracted to it - fought to stay in. It isn't healthy and it doesn't work for us.

You like the posts of member "2010" - this is highlighted in her message - and in the clinical article here.

[Fr4nz]

Sure Skip! However, if I remember correctly there was even a pie-chart (or a poll... .) in the site - some time ago - which was showing how in the 99% of cases these relationships are doomed in the long run... .

We do not have a survey like that... .it would be like going to a divorce board and asking how many people are happy... .

Many of the partners here are at a subclinical range for the disorder - BPD light - and that is a challenge enough - but we don't have to hype it up.  

What is more important for us than labeling healthy and malignant is for use to see that we were not a good match for this personality type. Yet many of us are attracted to it - fought to stay in. It isn't healthy and it doesn't work for us.

You like the posts of member "2010" - this is highlighted in her message - and in the clinical article here.

Sure, I've read very carefully 2010's post (all the pages!) since some months ago

Indeed, for what is related to the fact that many of us stay in these unhealty r/ss in spite of the huge issues, some time ago I said in this forum that, even if I am a NON, I have a BPD personality style (this according to my T) and covert NPD traits (this according to me)... .the BPD traits (probably) represent the factor that makes my ex BPD/HPD very attractive to my eyes and made me to stay in that relationship for 1 year and a half.

In turn, these traits stems from the fact that I have an hyper-protective mother (an excellent mother! BUT, too much love is not good as well :D), so I've tackled my very own family of origin issues and nowadays I feel much better and with a greater wisdom.

[Beach_Babe]

I see how block/unblock on fb makes me look like I care, perhaps I should leave that? What's bothering me is the email. I havent checked that account in two weeks now (and need to) because it hurts I got no response. Clearly I cannot keep avoiding this.