Unfulfilling to me to have a partner who is unable to discuss my feelings about issues completely unrelated to our relationship

[Cat Familiar]

I'm now in a place where I'm looking at thriving, rather than just surviving, with my pwBPD. I've noticed a pattern for a long time with my husband where if I talk about my feelings (even if it has nothing to do with him), he is absolutely silent.

Recently I've been reading "Understanding the Borderline Mother," a book I highly recommend for those of you who grew up with a BPD mom. Since my husband grew up with an extremely NPD dad, I thought it would be helpful to share certain excerpts from the book, as we sit together in the breakfast nook and read in the mornings. I only share a few sentences then I talk briefly about my mother.

I had hoped this might encourage him to open up about his father, but he sits in blank silence and looks eager to get back to what he is reading. Sometimes I share something I think might be relevant to his history (but I don't frame it that way), but often, it's just relevant to me and my mom.

Blank silence ensues. So I go back to reading.

In the past, I've shared some metaphors about relationships that I thought might be applicable to his life, only to discover they've completely gone over his head. At first, I thought his cluelessness was feigned, but then it occurred to me that something that might touch some core wound is so highly protected, that he just can't make sense of it.

He's a very smart guy, Ivy League graduate, law degree, interest in philosophy, extremely well read in Buddhism, so there's no basis to think he can't make the logical connection.

In the book I've mentioned, the author cites studies that extreme trauma in childhood damage parts of the brain responsible for memory and emotional regulation. I'm just wondering if talking about my feelings causes him to shut down and be unable to respond.

It's really unfulfilling to me to have a partner who is unable to discuss my feelings about issues completely unrelated to our relationship, particularly when we spend so much time discussing his.

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[formflier]

  It's really unfulfilling to me to have a partner who is unable to discuss my feelings about issues completely unrelated to our relationship, particularly when we spend so much time discussing his.  

               Did you ask if he would be able to discuss your feelings or listen to the excerpts?  As I read the post the big question in my head was not "could he discuss them" but "was he ready".  I wonder if the blank look was because (to him) this was something "out of the blue" that he wasn't ready for.  As opposed to if he new that a "mother talk" was coming and he could start thinking about your mom and stories he has been told up to that point.    I connect this to pwBPD because many of the lessons are about "preparing" them to listen or recognizing that they are in a state where they will not be able to communicate.  I can totally see how this is frustrating if it is a "normal" breakfast thing.  You look forward to it and you would think he would look forward to talking to you over breakfast.  Breakfast is my favorite meal, I enjoy chatting with the kids as they get ready to go.  My wife is very haphazard about her breakfast habits/showing up to table.  Been a source of frustration for a long time for me.                

FF

[Grey Kitty]

He's a very smart guy, Ivy League graduate, law degree, interest in philosophy, extremely well read in Buddhism, so there's no basis to think he can't make the logical connection.

Whatever he has to deal with regarding his NPD father isn't going to be an intellectual exercise. Yes, there may be some places where that helps... .but most of the work is finding the strength to get back to the feelings from that time. Feelings that were stuffed in some way for most of his life to date.

And my experience with Buddhism is that I've done a bit of reading, and I enjoy that... .but it is the actual meditation practice and general mindfulness that has brought about changes in me. Reading doesn't cover the hard part.

I'd recommend that you separate the two issues here, as they really don't help each other rolled together.

Q1. Can your H listen to you about your feelings in a way that is helpful to you?

Q2. Can your H deal with his own feelings in a productive way? (Especially about his childhood)

Regarding Q2, you may occasionally offer your H something that might help him... .but this is truly his journey, you cannot take one step for him. And he may not be able to go very far along it. I'd recommend letting this one go.

Back to Q1... .I think you are best off going at this in two directions... .

First, accepting your H's limitations and looking for other outlets for that kind of validation and support besides him.

Second, work on building up better and safer ways to present your feelings to your H. Probably by starting with easier things for him to accept or empathize with. It is going to be a long slow process at best, I'm afraid.

[Cat Familiar]

Yep, I did ask if I could share some things I was reading from the book. I agree, preparation is key and lots of times I don't do that as well as I should.

I didn't ask for him to chime in today; I just sort of expected it as a natural conversational flow. Other times I've asked for his opinion, his thoughts, and have gotten, "What do you want me to say?"

If the topic was politics, the environment, or sports (which I know noting about), he'd go on for hours.

Maybe I'm being harsh, but one part of me just thinks he's selfish. A good example occurred this morning. I said I'd be back from the feed store I just a few minutes. I knew he had a doctor's appointment later in the afternoon.

We have a problem lock on our main door to the house that I've attempted to fix. I'm going to take it out and replace it temporarily with another lockset, and take it to the locksmith. In the meantime, we have to unlock the house by going up stairs and through the formal living room which is a total pain in the butt with an armload of stuff, while trying to take off muddy cowboy boots outside.

So on my way home, we meet on our road and he looks a bit sheepish. He's got hours before his appointment and he decided to get lunch out. So he mumbles something about having to get to his appointment early to fill out paperwork. (He knows I'm thinking this is BS.)

Then an hour later he calls me, saying he's got a lot of time on his hands before his appointment so he's going Christmas shopping and should he buy anything for my friends? (Another transparent ploy. Even if I had said yes, I'm sure he wouldn't have found anything suitable.)

It's so funny, now that I'm starting to see beneath the BPD veneer what the true motives are. I guess, for fun, I could use some of this to my benefit, but what would really make me happy is to be able to relate to him as if he were a friend.

[Sunfl0wer]

I wonder if this is less personal, and more about the topic of the book.

If you try to engage me about Lacross, I will have little to say.  I have little foundation to even understand it, it doesn't interest me to ask enough questions to get to a good enough understanding to converse about it.  Quite frankly, I just don't care a thing about Lacross.

I may care that someone is passionate about it, however, I still cannot contribute much to a shared feeling or any feeling about it, as I am simply too ignorant in this regard.

It is one thing for someone to simply discuss their feeling or opinion on a topic. 

Such as: Wow, that player really took a hard hit, I hope he is ok.

I can handle that.

But if you want to go into depth about game strategy... .I will wait that conversation out and may avoid it.

I say... .  If this approach doesn't appear engaging... .maybe this is just not an engaging approach for him.

[Cat Familiar]

Grey Kitty, you're abdolutely right about Q2. I don't think he has dealt with it much, but he has been going to therapy, so I'll let go any of my "help" and he can work on it, or not, there.

Funny you mention it, but reading seems to be all he wants to do with Buddhism these days. No exaggeration, but he has probably 2000 books on Buddhism. It reminds me of seminar junkies--that the next one will be the one.

Regarding Q1, I'd have to say an unequivocal no. Even about safer topics, he's not much better. I think he filters everything with "is this about me? Will I get in trouble."

Fortunately I have great friends with whom I can be completely honest. I'd just like a smidgen of that in my relationship. After all, intimacy springs from intimacy.

[Cat Familiar]

Yes, Sunflower, I don't think he has much interest in many things unless it somehow involves him. But regarding feelings, I think that is part of being in a relationship. I have a limit about listening to him talk about camera equipment, and he understands that. However, I will endlessly listen to him talk about how his sisters don't include him--that's been a broken record for a decade. Hopefully he's addressing that in therapy.

[formflier]

  Is he a "talker" or just a talker about things he is interested in?  I'm a talker.  I don't know squat about LaCross, but I could go on and on for a long time about it if someone wanted to talk about it.  I'd ask questions, make observations about what I've heard, if appropriate I might offer a similar story or experience (one that had a similar impact on me).    But, I'm an extrovert, I'm from the south, and I like to talk.  My "regulating myself" is being mindful to hush and let others talk.                

FF

[formflier]

  Perhaps a direct question could be useful here.  "I would like to discuss my feelings more with you.  How can we best go about that?"                

FF

[Cat Familiar]

FF, I think that's a good strategy. With regard to the Mother book, I've told him that I've noticed how I was impacted by my BPD mom and I want to make sure I'm not continuing some of these patterns in our relationship. If he said anything at all, he'd say, "oh, you're fine." Not very helpful when I want to engage in conversation to improve our communication.

So I'll take your lead and ask questions. I remember hearing "Whoever asks the questions controls the conversation" from a business friend many years ago.

[formflier]

  I have adopted this "strategy" for talking to my wife.  When I want to respond to her questions/accusations (BPDish stuff) I tend to validate and be vague.  The more specifics there are the more there is to twist.  So:  Normal wife asks me questions:  I am specific and talk away until there is a hint of BPDish stuff.  Then I swtich.  dysregulated wife (or a hint of it):  I am vague and focus on being supportive.     When I am asking questions (in your position) I get really specific.  "What do you think about (xyz)"  I see where that goes.  If she says something about "it was fine".  Then I have to drill down.  I'll give it one more shot.  Then for future reference I note that this subject has "something" about it.  And I'm more careful.                

FF

[Cat Familiar]

FF, I like your idea about specificity and also about noting topics that can be minefields.

Great also to discern between "normal" spouse and BPD spouse and tailor responses accordingly vague or specific.

Also, I like your idea of giving it one more shot if you get a nonspecific answer. I've made the mistake of turning into an interrogator, just because I was really fascinated.

Thanks for these suggestions!

My h is an introvert, but if he's engaged in a topic , he can be quite a talker.

[formflier]

   My h is an introvert, but if he's engaged in a topic , he can be quite a talker.

               Same dynamic here.  When my wife starts talking about education (she is teacher) or other issues she cares about I am the listener and I'm usually just hanging on.  I remember one time I was talking about getting a new set of orders.  (new job assignment in the Navy).  The location we were going to was very very cold.  I made a comment about it being "better than being stuck on a ship".  She was incredulous and said "A ship?"  (it was pure honesty on her part, just not being engaged and understanding)  I was like, yes, I am in the NAVY, they have a ship or two.  She was into her own thing, my career was mine.  I actually liked it that way.  There were lots of Navy wives that new more about their husbands career than the hubbies did.  Anyway, good luck mining for information!                

FF

[Grey Kitty]

Regarding Q1, I'd have to say an unequivocal no. Even about safer topics, he's not much better. I think he filters everything with "is this about me? Will I get in trouble."

Fortunately I have great friends with whom I can be completely honest. I'd just like a smidgen of that in my relationship. After all, intimacy springs from intimacy.

  Sometimes radical acceptance is so !@#$!@# hard.

Yeah, you may be able to improve things a little bit by doing 95% of the effective work. But he has some pretty severe limitations in this area, and that is who he is. Not absolutely incapable of changing, but you gotta accept him where he is first, and even then, who knows.

[Cat Familiar]

  Sometimes radical acceptance is so !@#$!@# hard.

Yeah, you may be able to improve things a little bit by doing 95% of the effective work. But he has some pretty severe limitations in this area, and that is who he is. Not absolutely incapable of changing, but you gotta accept him where he is first, and even then, who knows.

Thanks, Grey Kitty. Yes, I'm not holding my breath to see any change in him.

I have to laugh, thinking about the beginning of our relationship. What I took for mystery and sophistication turned out to be terror of emotional intimacy. 

[Cat Familiar]

I made a comment about it being "better than being stuck on a ship".  She was incredulous and said "A ship?"  (it was pure honesty on her part, just not being engaged and understanding)  I was like, yes... .I am in the NAVY... .they have a ship or two.

Hilarious!

My husband assumes he knows what my life is like and it's pretty funny sometimes how off course he is.

[Notwendy]

I think it involves your H doing what he is good at and being uncomfortable with what he is not. Getting to the point of Ivy league requires a degree of perfect performance- getting the A in school, acing the SAT. In these situations- the path to accomplishment is there- study XYZ, take this test. It takes a lot to do well academically, and that is an accomplishment, but there is a set path of what to accomplish and regular assessments- so that someone knows how they are doing.

There is no such set in the emotional realm. There isn't a path to getting an A in "listening to feelings about mother". "thinking about my childhood".  Accomplishments can mask a fear of failure.

Your H is a lawyer, which means he can think quickly about the exact thing to say to a client, in court, the judge. Lawyers are trained in how to do this, but this skill doesn't transfer to the blurry emotional world of a marriage. In our culture, people train for years for a profession or job, but there isn't a college course on how to be a spouse.

In a nutshell, your H is highly competent in things he knows how to do, but this isn't something he knows how to excel at and so better to not do it at all then to try and fail. Because if he was brought up to believe that not doing something well means HE is a failure, he isn't going to risk that.

This may be something that requires radical acceptance. He isn't good at this, but he is good at a lot of other things. Doing this is stressful to him.

[hergestridge]

Thanks, Grey Kitty. Yes, I'm not holding my breath to see any change in him.

I have to laugh, thinking about the beginning of our relationship. What I took for mystery and sophistication turned out to be terror of emotional intimacy. 

I think this is a very common mistake and extends beyond pwBPD. My fear of conflict has lead many people to believe they have a soulmate in me. "He's such a good listener. He almost never talks." 

[Cat Familiar]

Notwendy, you make some good points. I've made the mistake over and over of thinking because someone excelled in intelligence that they also excelled in emotional intelligence. Absolutely not true.

With regard to lawyers, the ones I've met typically don't have much ability to empathize and are often impatient when people talk about feelings.

"In a nutshell, your H is highly competent in things he knows how to do, but this isn't something he knows how to excel at and so better to not do it at all then to try and fail. Because if he was brought up to believe that not doing something well means HE is a failure, he isn't going to risk that."

You are absolutely right. He's reluctant to try anything he thinks he might not be "good at."

[Cat Familiar]

"He's such a good listener. He almost never talks." 

That's funny. Initially I took my husband to be a good listener because he didn't say much when I talked. Then I realized that he was probably not listening at all. Yes, he could probably repeat back some of my words if I questioned him, but understand the emotional concept behind them. Probably only superficially, if at all.

[Notwendy]

I thought he was a mystery too, and that I would eventually get to know what he was thinking and relate on a deep emotional level.

However, my way of doing that is not my H's way. I had to come to terms with that. I'm a talker, love heart to heart talks. But these completely wear my H out. It takes all his energy. It feels as if he is completely in his head. Conversations are slow and halting as he searches for what he thinks is the right thing to say.

Nobody in his FOO talks about feelings and people stay carefully guarded. I think if someone did reveal their inner thoughts, it would be an opportunity for my FIL to get all over their case. I think people in that family learned not to speak of personal things at a young age, and so, I don't know if they have the ability to do that.

I stopped trying because it was not only painful for my H, it was painful to me to have these one sided, haltingly slow conversations. Or they would end up in the disregulated circulatory arguments. I finally decided that insanity was doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results. I stopped thinking "maybe this time it will work" and just accepted it. He knows how to talk and if he wants to talk about something personal, he could if he wanted to. I don't think he does and I have stopped thinking it was my role to coax him into it.

It was radical acceptance and to see that my H would be happy sitting quietly in a room with me. Or talking about something not personal- politics, news, something on TV.  But this heart to heart thing, - that was not going to happen.

It isn't about intelligence, because my H can excel in other areas, including academics. It is a different function. I also have skills that I am good at and things that I am not good at- a lot of this has to do with how much practice we have.

[waverider]

Sometimes hypothetically putting them center of stage works.

eg

"... I have something that worries me and I would like your view, if you were me what would you feel/do/say if xyz was happening to you,? Do you think I am being unreasonable to think xyz.?"

[waverider]

Nobody in his FOO talks about feelings and people stay carefully guarded. I think if someone did reveal their inner thoughts, it would be an opportunity for my FIL to get all over their case. I think people in that family learned not to speak of personal things at a young age, and so, I don't know if they have the ability to do that.

My wifes FOO exactly, after 9 years I still dont really know them any better than after my first meeting.  Not allowing true feelings out means that all those polite and appropriate responses have no weight. This leads to insecurity as everyone suspects others think badly about them, or are afraid they do, as they will never know.

Meanwhile you need bigger and bigger locks on the closet to prevent the pressure of all those skeletons bursting the doors open

The old saying "if you have nothing nice to say don't say anything" taken too far. In my family if someone thinks you are acting like a clown they will tell you, so  if they tell you something complimentary you believe it as its not a stock answer.

Secrets make you sick

[Notwendy]

Meanwhile you need bigger and bigger locks on the closet to prevent the pressure of all those skeletons bursting the doors open



Yes, except when I first met my H's FOO, I thought they were "normal" because they seemed to be so quiet and controlled compared to what I grew up with.

We had our family secrets but it was more like the elephant in the room than a skeleton in the closet. Whatever my mother with BPD did, or said, we had to pretend nothing happened. But she wasn't quiet and stoic. More like raging and screaming. We knew what she was feeling. The rest of us didn't have a say in the matter.

But among the kids- we spoke to each other- about everything, and the truth. We were our own little emotional support group, so I grew up being able to talk about feelings- at least to someone.

So when I met this nice, controlled "peaceful" family, I didn't know to think any different... .or look in the closets...

Like you, I barely know my in laws after years. They are nice to me, but keep a cool stoic demeanor. My H and his sibs don't talk much to each other, and not like I do with mine.

I actually had high hopes of having a "mother" figure in my life that  I could have a close relationship with when I met my MIL. She is very nice to me, but our conversations are superficial .

[Cat Familiar]

Add me to the Superficial In-Law Club. I, too, thought they were all very nice, with the obvious exception of my FIL who was the picture perfect raging narcissistic a$$hole. It's no wonder they're so damaged after putting up with him. I've heard lots of people talk about how abusive their parents were and I took it with a grain of salt. My husband didn't say much about him, but he did paint an accurate picture of the old relic--he was even worse than I had imagined. Highly intelligent. Zero emotional intelligence.

My husband's sister will be staying with us for a week at Christmas. He's worried because he says she typically "goes off" on him after a few days. I know how good he is at inciting verbal violence, then pretending he's a victim. I'll just have to watch from a distance--no way do I want to get involved.

I find it so peculiar that I can have a much closer emotional talk with my horseshoer than my husband. Today he told me his aunt died--she was the younger sister of his father, the narcissist. She was a very nice woman, quite a contrast to her brother. Anyhow, my husband expressed so little emotion upon hearing about her passing. It makes me wonder if he bottles it all up or he just doesn't feel much. Yet, he seems chronically depressed.

[Notwendy]

I've had similar experiences with my parents and also with my H. I think it is a protective thing- to be most emotionally protective with the people they care about the most.

My H doesn't show much emotion. He is stoic like his mother. Unless he is angry, and then, well that emotion flows freely. This is one thing that made the relationship difficult for me because I didn't get a sense of the full range of emotions from him. My mother would rage, but she also showed a range of emotions.

Ironically, because he kept his emotions under wrap,( except anger) and I didn't, he accused me of being over-emotional. Talking about emotions just fell flat in conversations.

I recall being an older teen and telling my parents about an incident that upset me. It was not about me, but a friend who was having  problems. The emotions I had were empathy. It was not my problem, but I was expressing my concern for her.  I recall my parents looking at me with blank expressions and feeling shocked that they didn't seem to connect to what I was trying to share. I think my H does connect, but doesn't know what words would connect with that or be the right thing to say.

Which again comes down to a high academic achiever not necessarily having these skills. In academics, one knows what the right answer is, or how to write a good paper, but in relationships, there really isn't one right answer.

I've backed off attempting these kinds of discussions and if I do, I don't do so with the expectation of eliciting the level of emotional connection I wished I had. I think it isn't in his nature, but he connects in other ways, and I try to appreciate that.

[Cat Familiar]

I guess there is no such thing as "the perfect mate" though all the fairy tales and entertainment media try to convince us otherwise. It's hard enough when two nons get together. Add in a personality disorder and you have a recipe for discontent.

Now that I've dealt with my anger and disappointment, I'm starting to count my blessings. It occurs to me that both the anger and disappointment I felt stemmed from feeling that my husband was behaving badly, on purpose. That if he could just get an overview of how his behavior affected me, he would change. Now I'm realizing that he just doesn't have the capacity, yet and maybe he never will. I guess I'm starting to understand what radical acceptance is.

[Notwendy]

No, there isn't a perfect partner. I believe that is an illusion. I also think we marry the person designed to make us grow as a human, not keep us comfortable all the time. Of course it would be nice if that growing up wasn't as hard sometimes. But I also count my blessings.

I guess I had hoped that perhaps a partner would help heal the childhood wounds, but I think the purpose might be to turn our attention to them and learn to get over them ourselves. So much better to do this than to think we need someone else to do it.

Each one of us considers the situation and what to do.  I think every person we have in our lives has something to teach us. In many ways, my H and I balance each other. It may not be a good idea to be married to someone exactly like us.

But oh those movies and fairy tales... .and actors on TV and movies, but I bet many of them would be hard to live with on a daily basis.

[formflier]

 It occurs to me that both the anger and disappointment I felt stemmed from feeling that my husband was behaving badly, on purpose.  

         I can remember back to when I thought divorce threats meant she didn't like me anymore and that she was purposefully trying to hurt me.  Man, .glad I have a new perspective.          

FF

[Grey Kitty]

I guess there is no such thing as "the perfect mate" though all the fairy tales and entertainment media try to convince us otherwise.

I liked what Dan Savage said, more often in the context of dating or choosing a new relationship than staying in a long-term one.

Finding the 0.67 that you round up to "the one".

As in deciding that this person is close enough that you will choose them and put your efforts into making things work with them, despite them having some flaws.

I thought that was a very realistic and healthy view of love and relationships.