Communication, the problem of validation, and versions of reality

[goateeki]

Marriage of 19 years collapsed a few years ago. Ex wife diagnosed w BPD and complex PTSD, has a history of trauma dating from youth that could be among the worst. Two children, a girl, 11 and a boy, 8.

Presently involved in a happy relationship with an older woman, have been together for more than a year and it's easy and happy and wonderfully supportive. We are together more than the sum of our parts. I wish it were the relationship I'd had for the last 19 years.

This relationship has given me a great deal of perspective.  If I have learned anything, it is that people are very, very different, and some are capable of much while others are capable of little.   

Many people on these boards have remarked at the skill that pwBPD employ in making nons a villain, and I believe that there is something to this. I also believe that there might be a problem with the technique of validation.

I received this morning a crystal clear reminder of just how often, and often with how much artistry, this sort of thing happens.  I woke to a voicemail on my phone, left in the early hours of this morning, from my diagnosed BPD ex wife.  The preceding evening, our young son (8) picked up his iPad and began texting me about how the death of his goldfish over a year ago still upsets him so greatly, wanted to know how I had disposed of his body (a nice funeral, he hoped) and how sad he was that he was not present for it (it occurred during a time when his mother disappeared with the children for a week). I reassured him and told him he'd been a loving owner of his fish, Bubble, and that somewhere in fish heaven Bubble knew how much our son had loved him.

The voicemail I received this morning was one of exasperation, clearly.  She called and for two minutes, lectured about how our son was falling asleep to the peaceful music that she'd set up on his iPad (which is what great mothers like her do for their children), that I had initiated contact with our son when I should have known he was asleep, that I had told him something sad and upsetting, that I should let her know when I speak to him about sad and upsetting things, that the text I sent to him when I initiated contact with him caused the iPad's screen to light up and wake him, etc.

To rebut the detailed factual scenario she'd built up in her mind, I screenshotted the brief text exchange between our son and myself and sent it to her.  Reality is the best counter to the harshly judgmental fantasies of the pwBPD, right? Just point to reality and everything will be OK?  It showed that every factual assertion she'd made in her voicemail was wrong, and this actually caused her to become more angry at me.

Imagine the effort involved in reaching the conclusions she did, and then investing them with belief.

There is no way to productively communicate with pwBPD.  There is a bias for finding fault in others, for versions of reality that cast the pwBPD as faultless, and a seeking out of situations in which these two things can happen.  If you attempt to ease the upset of a pwBPD by giving them facts, her energy is immediately redirected to condemning you for giving her something that conflicts with the reality to which she strongly clings.  I have pointed to reality and actually been told that I am ESCALATING the conflict rather than trying to show the pwBPD that there is no reason for conflict. 

People say that there is no way to win with a pwBPD, but I don't think I was ever concerned with winning.  I was trying to get to some agreed upon reality wherein each of us was a basically good human being.  During our marriage I made the mistake of validating her nonstop, low grade anger with accepting that I'd done something wrong (because there's a kernel of truth even in every recrimination, we are told) and all it did was reinforce in her mind a belief that I am a deeply flawed human being.  In the end, she treated me like she could barely tolerate me, and I am responsible for having permitted that.  I would suggest that in some pwBPD, validation is an invitation to strike.  In therapy, we are asked to consider that we have enabled the craziness of the pwBPD.  In what way is validation not a form of enabling?  I remember my father, and how, if someone he was engaged in a conflict with was factually incorrect, he would calmly say "Well, that's just wrong. What you think is not true."  In our lives with pwBPD, we avoid this sort of response at our peril. 

The entire BPD construct of reality is designed to bring about the failure of the non.  I cannot imagine what it is like to live inside a mind like theirs.             

[rarsweet]

I agree with what you have said when you are not in a relationship with the pwBPD. Perhaps inside a relationship while you are trying to work it out validation is a good thing. When you are not vested in making it work it is pointless. If you make sure to point out good things they do they will turn it into they are obviously better than you and you obviously agree. If you validate how they feel you must be agreeing with them. It is a waste of our time and energy. Sometimes I think we have to treat our exes like they are just acquaintances. We don't spend our time trying to change the mailman or the secretary at the doctor's office. Sometimes I think we should exchange info about our children as we would with a babysitter. Sometimes I fail and try to communicate as normal people do. I think pwBPD don't want to be happy, they don't want to face reality. Their versions, their fantasies, their behaviors are like an addiction they don't want to give up. To try to reason with them would be asking them to give up their distortions. You ever have that feeling when you drink too much coffee? It's like you are running on super fast autopilot and you can't slow down until you crash? I think that is what it is like in their heads. Like their thoughts and behaviors have a life of their own and the pwBPD feels helpless to slow it down because then they would have to face life differently. It's sad. They can't evolve. I think sending her the texts was the best you could do unless you just ignored her.

[goateeki]

I like the comparison to the secretary or the mailman.  Also, thanks on the texts.  In the ever-shifting ground beneath a relationship with a pwBPD ex partner, it's nice to hear that I might have done something right.

[scraps66]

You've captured distortion better than I could but have understood this for some time.  My exNPD/BPDw gets so deep into her distortions that they become her reality.  She loses all sight of reality.  I have several very discrete examples.

One of those has to do with her grad degree.  A teacher.  I remember documenting her conversations with the parents of prospective students for tutoring. "Oh yes and I have a Master's Degree in Advanced math from Distortion Univ and blah, blah."  I wrote this down when I heard due to the fact that she had that year flunked out of her Master's program.

Validation.  A few years later we were both instructed to get psychological evaluations.  I got mine.  Then I had to make four trips back to court to actually "get" hers.  A pro se litigant at the time, she had found a very unethical psychologist to administer her evaluation.  In the report she stated that she had "received her Master's from DU in 2006."  That was actually the year she flunked out.

The report went on to state such things as, the custody arrangement was going well, she has a good relationship with my parents, she has a boyfriend who (occasionally) spends the night with her and our kids, that there is no history of mental illness in her family, etc, etc, etc. 

Amazing.  It has been my observation that she is more convincing, when lying, than I ma when telling the truth.

Ah, that felt good to write that.          

[Nope]

In my experience the big mistake my DH and I have made in the past is thinking that the kid's BPD mom is complaining about the thing that's actually bothering her.  Whenever you are sitting there scratching your head asking yourself what caused a BPD over-reaction about 90% of the time it will be about loss of control over a situation.

And example would be a recent blow up the BPD mom had over the fact that I'm in communication with her youngest child's grandmother. (Her youngest child is from another relationship after she and DH split.) She threw a huge fit about how I have no business communicating with someone unrelated to DH's two kids and that she knows how much we like to spread rumors and gossip and that it's unacceptable. She went on at length with imaginary scenarios she was clearly pulling out of her head. The truth was all I said to the youngest daughter's grandma was that DH's kids would be up for Thanksgiving and that they were looking forward to seeing her. The grandma told the youngest daughter this and the little girl told BPD mom.

But telling the BPD mom that was all that got said would have been useless because her only actual concern was control and trying to find a way to control who talks to whom when and about what. She clearly did not intend for her youngest daughter to know she would be seeing her siblings until she felt like telling the child herself. She also clearly didn't want DH and I knowing that she had tried to hit her ex with her car during a recent parenting exchange and that he'd filed a police report.

Her goal in her email was to get us all to stop talking to each other. It sounds to me like your ex's goal for making up the whole giant scenario with the tablet was to dissuade you from having more email communications. So when you started talking about what was true and real about the email she got even more made because you were missing the real point.

[goateeki]

In my experience the big mistake my DH and I have made in the past is thinking that the kid's BPD mom is complaining about the thing that's actually bothering her.  Whenever you are sitting there scratching your head asking yourself what caused a BPD over-reaction about 90% of the time it will be about loss of control over a situation.

---

Her goal in her email was to get us all to stop talking to each other. It sounds to me like your ex's goal for making up the whole giant scenario with the tablet was to dissuade you from having more email communications. So when you started talking about what was true and real about the email she got even more mad because you were missing the real point.

These things are familiar to me.  The thing that makes me believe that this view of the world, this sort of behavior, will never end is that my ex wife utterly refuses to see that what she perceives as a loss of control (and it might be, but having imperfect control over life is the normal state of things) is attributable in some degree to things that she has done or not done.  She does not see that she affects her own reality.  She seems to think that events just happen to her for no reason at all, and when she doesn't like them, their happening is immediately assigned to me. 

I agree that she probably wanted to inflict some kind of cost for responding to our son's communication.  We attended the town Christmas tree lighting a few nights ago and I made the mistake of sitting down to dinner with her and the kids.  Whenever the kids wandered off to say hello to a friend in the restaurant, she would immediately go into all of the horrible things that children our daughter's age do and how it is inevitable that she (our 11 y/o daughter) will get into illicit drugs and oral sex.  Her apartment must be like East Germany for the kids.   

"she got even more mad because you were missing the real point... ."  <-- True.  It's like dealing with a child.

[goateeki]

You've captured distortion better than I could but have understood this for some time.  My exNPD/BPDw gets so deep into her distortions that they become her reality.  She loses all sight of reality. 

One of those has to do with her grad degree.  A teacher.  I remember documenting her conversations with the parents of prospective students for tutoring. "Oh yes and I have a Master's Degree in Advanced math from Distortion Univ and blah, blah."  I wrote this down when I heard due to the fact that she had that year flunked out of her Master's program.

Amazing.  It has been my observation that she is more convincing, when lying, than I ma when telling the truth.

Ah, that felt good to write that.          

Don't know if you've read anything else I've posted here, but back when she was emoting like crazy and yelling and throwing things, and I knew divorce was inevitable, I thought maybe I should speak to someone about a religious annulment in the event some future woman might want to be married in the church (R.C.).  I spoke to someone about this and it was emphasized to me that there must be strong evidence of the non-sacramental nature of the marriage.  Well, her words to me described the non-sacramental nature of the marriage.  She said to me that she never loved me, always hated me, and never wanted to marry me (this despite selection of a rather large ring, which was taken back twice to be augmented with larger stones).  This is the essence of a non-sacramental marriage, and I suppose it goes to the very legality of it, as well. 

So I wrote down every bizarre statement like this, with the date.  Now, these were very specific, emphatic statements, made while looking right at me, and loudly.  Months later she "discovered" my annulment folder, and said to me "I never said those things." 

Honestly, if you had ever stooped low enough to say to someone "I always hated you and I hated having sex with you every single time" you would ever forget saying such a thing?  This was very disturbing to me, hearing this denial.  There is a part of me that suspects that even now, she is more maladjusted than she appears. This worries me a little, for the sake of the kids.

[sweetheart]

Thanks for this goateeki   I read this the morning after an absolutely hateful dysregulation from my dBPDh that for me came out of nowhere. It deeply resonated with me.

I find myself struggling this morning as a parent to our s7 in a way that I have not experienced before. My line in the sand has always been the impact on our child and last night because it happened so quickly and in front of our son, I find myself scrabbling around trying to think of how to extricate myself from this marriage.

My dBPDh is a high conflict personality, low functioning, has nothing to loose,  and I know he would say and do anything if he feels threatened.

Writing this out I didn't realise how scared I am of leaving him for both me and our son.

[goateeki]

Thanks for this goateeki   I read this the morning after an absolutely hateful dysregulation from my dBPDh that for me came out of nowhere. It deeply resonated with me.

I find myself struggling this morning as a parent to our s7 in a way that I have not experienced before. My line in the sand has always been the impact on our child and last night because it happened so quickly and in front of our son, I find myself scrabbling around trying to think of how to extricate myself from this marriage.

My dBPDh is a high conflict personality, low functioning, has nothing to loose,  and I know he would say and do anything if he feels threatened.

Writing this out I didn't realise how scared I am of leaving him for both me and our son.

I understand this, and I feel bad for you, knowing what you're probably experiencing.   

I feel terrible for the kids sometimes.  I feel bad that they have to deal with such stressful things at such a young age and I feel at the same time that inflicting divorce on them is such a selfish thing to do.  It's like there is no good choice.  But there is a light at the end of the tunnel, I think, and dedicating oneself to being a loving parent can do a lot to help the kids overcome that stress. 

[Concerns]

I find it hard to resolve this very issue. The validation my wife receives is often a trigger. When she is splitting and I am the evil one then all validation is perceived as a threat. It seems that unless she gets some baseline stability, her reality is skewed. I'm not sure even that would ensure any kind change in her reality.

The problem for me is accountability. Often, you will have to lie to validate bc their behavior is so out of bounds that validating would have the basis in a lie even if you try to be validating towards them. Boundaries don't really work bc they just do it anyway. She is accountable to no one save herself... .maybe. Her guilt is internalized. I am evil and regarded as such so my validation attempts are so beneath her that they don't get heard. I've read some posters here state that it is helpful. It's almost as if she doesn't believe anything positive that comes out of my mouth due to her own internal hatred/dialogue. She will regularly forget entire conversations let alone any validation that happens within them. I'm beginning to feel she's too deep to reach or have a meaningful relationship in any healthy way.

[Concerns]

I find it hard to resolve this very issue. The validation my wife receives is often a trigger. When she is splitting and I am the evil one then all validation is perceived as a threat. It seems that unless she gets some baseline stability, her reality is skewed. I'm not sure even that would ensure any kind change in her reality.

The problem for me is accountability. Often, you will have to lie to validate bc their behavior is so out of bounds that validating would have the basis in a lie even if you try to be validating towards them. She is accountable to no one save herself... .maybe. Her guilt is internalized. I am evil and regarded as such so my validation attempts are so beneath her that they don't get heard. I've read some posters here state that it is helpful. It's almost as if she doesn't believe anything positive that comes out of my mouth due to her own internal hatred/dialogue. She will not apologize. She will regularly forget entire conversations let alone any validation that happens within them. I'm beginning to feel she's too deep to reach or have a meaningful relationship in any healthy way.

[goateeki]

I find it hard to resolve this very issue. The validation my wife receives is often a trigger. When she is splitting and I am the evil one then all validation is perceived as a threat. It seems that unless she gets some baseline stability, her reality is skewed. I'm not sure even that would ensure any kind change in her reality.

The problem for me is accountability. Often, you will have to lie to validate bc their behavior is so out of bounds that validating would have the basis in a lie even if you try to be validating towards them. Boundaries don't really work bc they just do it anyway. She is accountable to no one save herself... .maybe. Her guilt is internalized. I am evil and regarded as such so my validation attempts are so beneath her that they don't get heard. I've read some posters here state that it is helpful. It's almost as if she doesn't believe anything positive that comes out of my mouth due to her own internal hatred/dialogue. She will regularly forget entire conversations let alone any validation that happens within them. I'm beginning to feel she's too deep to reach or have a meaningful relationship in any healthy way.

This is all very familiar to me.  I'll put it this way: I reached a point where validation seemed to stoke the fire. 

I can also say that pointing to an indisputable reality in an effort to show her that there is no basis for her anger caused her to accuse me of escalating conflict.  Think of that.  There is relative peace, and she brings about conflict. I show her with facts that that, thank goodness, there is no reason for it.  She is simply mistaken in her assumptions. A healthy person would greet this with relief and happiness, but there is so much anger inside this person that it would enrage her. 

The easiest example of this would be her accusations of infidelity.  I never cheated on her and never even had an impulse to.  She would often look out the house window when I arrived home, and if I did and happened to be speaking on my phone, she would often make some not too vague remark that indicated she believed I was speaking to a woman and it upset her. I would show her my phone, and the call was almost always my office, my mother or my best friend.  The evidence that the person I was speaking to WAS NOT some strange woman but my office (= my livelihood) would anger her even more.

More and more, I cannot believe that I lived that way.  I can't believe I had children with this person. 

[Turkish]

I can also say that pointing to an indisputable reality in an effort to show her that there is no basis for her anger caused her to accuse me of escalating conflict.  Think of that.  There is relative peace, and she brings about conflict. I show her with facts that that, thank goodness, there is no reason for it.  She is simply mistaken in her assumptions. A healthy person would greet this with relief and happiness, but there is so much anger inside this person that it would enrage her. 

Is this validation, or is it JADEing?

You know the truth, reality. I was in a way constantly accused of cheating,  like every man from her culture, despite me not being from their culture (and this was her B&W thinking). Then she cheated, while casting herself as a victim. Dysfunctional enablers surrounded her due to them buying into her narrative.

It's definitely maddening to view distortions of reality, if not out right lies and denial.

How do you work given her distorted world-view to the benefit of your kids and for yourself?

[goateeki]

I can also say that pointing to an indisputable reality in an effort to show her that there is no basis for her anger caused her to accuse me of escalating conflict.  Think of that.  There is relative peace, and she brings about conflict. I show her with facts that that, thank goodness, there is no reason for it.  She is simply mistaken in her assumptions. A healthy person would greet this with relief and happiness, but there is so much anger inside this person that it would enrage her. 

Is this validation, or is it JADEing?

You know the truth, reality. I was in a way constantly accused of cheating,  like every man from her culture, despite me not being from their culture (and this was her B&W thinking). Then she cheated, while casting herself as a victim. Dysfunctional enablers surrounded her due to them buying into her narrative.

It's definitely maddening to view distortions of reality, if not out right lies and denial.

How do you work given her distorted world-view to the benefit of your kids and for yourself?

Validating or JADEing... .

In the end, I don't think it's ever a good idea to insulate a person from reality.  Part of the reason pwBPD are pwBPD is that they have either been encouraged to ignore reality or they believe that they are not strong enough to deal with it.  Sometimes I believe that we are encouraged to validate simply because it is a way for us to tolerate the intolerable, or endure the unendurable.

Today my diagnosed BPD ex wife's godmother contacted me to tell me that she has seen me in social situations since I divorced my wife, and I am like a new person.  She was very specific in what she said to me, too, describing how I came to conduct myself in social situations (when married) over the decades and she compared me in social situations with my girlfriend now.  I am like a new person because I am no longer in a situation where I'd be critiqued within ten minutes of leaving the party, dinner, visit, etc., for speaking too much or too little, or spending too much time speaking with a particular person (most often a female).  I no longer risk having my head taken off the minute we're out of the presence of company. 

Really, the energy of validating ANYTHING for a pwBPD is not something I feel we nons ought to expend.  I realize that some people have made decisions to stay, and I respect that.  I just find it hard to believe that compromising with life this way is a long term strategy that benefits the non.  It's like living with Type II diabetes when so much can be done to become non-Type II diabetic.

How do you work?  I don't know if you can.  If we want to adhere to reality, if we want to avoid the mistake of insulating people from the consequences of their actions, I don't know how you can productively "live" with a pwBPD.  It takes huge levels of compromise.  I have less hope now that we can communicate peacefully as unmarried people because she seems to find controversy where it doesn't exist.  Sort of the way we are urged to deal with the IRS -- it's best to avoid any attention at all. 

Note I'm not telling anyone to run, and as I said, I respect the stay decision. 

[hashtag_loyal]

There is no way to productively communicate with pwBPD.  There is a bias for finding fault in others, for versions of reality that cast the pwBPD as faultless, and a seeking out of situations in which these two things can happen.  If you attempt to ease the upset of a pwBPD by giving them facts, her energy is immediately redirected to condemning you for giving her something that conflicts with the reality to which she strongly clings.  I have pointed to reality and actually been told that I am ESCALATING the conflict rather than trying to show the pwBPD that there is no reason for conflict.         

This is very insightful. Well said.

The entire BPD construct of reality is designed to bring about the failure of the non.  I cannot imagine what it is like to live inside a mind like theirs.             

I believe that the entire BPD construct of reality is designed to bring about the failure of the pwBPD as well. They choose the comfortable familiarity of pain, failure, conflict and victimhood over scary things like love, happiness, personal responsibility and reality 99% of the time.

[rarsweet]

My ex could not make a decision. I mean any decision, even if I asked what he wanted for dinner. I used to tell him it seemed like he wouldn't make a decision so that he wouldn't be responsible for the failure. Of course he would blame any problems on me when they happened. This way he made me responsible for all decisions if they turned out badly. He would go along with something and then say "see i knew it wouldn't work".

[goateeki]

There is no way to productively communicate with pwBPD.  There is a bias for finding fault in others, for versions of reality that cast the pwBPD as faultless, and a seeking out of situations in which these two things can happen.  If you attempt to ease the upset of a pwBPD by giving them facts, her energy is immediately redirected to condemning you for giving her something that conflicts with the reality to which she strongly clings.  I have pointed to reality and actually been told that I am ESCALATING the conflict rather than trying to show the pwBPD that there is no reason for conflict.         

This is very insightful. Well said.

The entire BPD construct of reality is designed to bring about the failure of the non.  I cannot imagine what it is like to live inside a mind like theirs.             

I believe that the entire BPD construct of reality is designed to bring about the failure of the pwBPD as well. They choose the comfortable familiarity of pain, failure, conflict and victimhood over scary things like love, happiness, personal responsibility and reality 99% of the time.

Scary things like love, happiness, personal responsibility and reality... .<--- GREAT observation and very well said.  Thanks for saying this; we know it's the truth and we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that this is what's really happening.  As my T would say, "All very safe, but the dividend is horrible."

[goateeki]

My ex could not make a decision. I mean any decision, even if I asked what he wanted for dinner. I used to tell him it seemed like he wouldn't make a decision so that he wouldn't be responsible for the failure. Of course he would blame any problems on me when they happened. This way he made me responsible for all decisions if they turned out badly. He would go along with something and then say "see i knew it wouldn't work".

Did you ever play the restaurant game?  pwBPD: "Let's go out to dinner." non: "Great idea. Where do you have in mind?" pwBPD: "I don't know. You choose." non: "Let's go to restaurant A." pwBPD: "I don't like that place. Pick another." And so on.  I once got up to five restaurants, all of which were rejected. She told me she was angry at me for picking bad restaurants.

I did this for almost 20 years.

[Mutt]

I can also say that pointing to an indisputable reality in an effort to show her that there is no basis for her anger caused her to accuse me of escalating conflict.  Think of that.  There is relative peace, and she brings about conflict. I show her with facts that that, thank goodness, there is no reason for it.  She is simply mistaken in her assumptions. A healthy person would greet this with relief and happiness, but there is so much anger inside this person that it would enrage her.  

Is this validation, or is it JADEing?

You know the truth, reality. I was in a way constantly accused of cheating,  like every man from her culture, despite me not being from their culture (and this was her B&W thinking). Then she cheated, while casting herself as a victim. Dysfunctional enablers surrounded her due to them buying into her narrative.

It's definitely maddening to view distortions of reality, if not out right lies and denial.

How do you work given her distorted world-view to the benefit of your kids and for yourself?

Validating or JADEing... .

In the end, I don't think it's ever a good idea to insulate a person from reality.  Part of the reason pwBPD are pwBPD is that they have either been encouraged to ignore reality or they believe that they are not strong enough to deal with it.  Sometimes I believe that we are encouraged to validate simply because it is a way for us to tolerate the intolerable, or endure the unendurable.

Today my diagnosed BPD ex wife's godmother contacted me to tell me that she has seen me in social situations since I divorced my wife, and I am like a new person.  She was very specific in what she said to me, too, describing how I came to conduct myself in social situations (when married) over the decades and she compared me in social situations with my girlfriend now.  I am like a new person because I am no longer in a situation where I'd be critiqued within ten minutes of leaving the party, dinner, visit, etc., for speaking too much or too little, or spending too much time speaking with a particular person (most often a female).  I no longer risk having my head taken off the minute we're out of the presence of company.  

Really, the energy of validating ANYTHING for a pwBPD is not something I feel we nons ought to expend.  I realize that some people have made decisions to stay, and I respect that.  I just find it hard to believe that compromising with life this way is a long term strategy that benefits the non.  It's like living with Type II diabetes when so much can be done to become non-Type II diabetic.

How do you work?  I don't know if you can.  If we want to adhere to reality, if we want to avoid the mistake of insulating people from the consequences of their actions, I don't know how you can productively "live" with a pwBPD.  It takes huge levels of compromise.  I have less hope now that we can communicate peacefully as unmarried people because she seems to find controversy where it doesn't exist.  Sort of the way we are urged to deal with the IRS -- it's best to avoid any attention at all.  

Note I'm not telling anyone to run, and as I said, I respect the stay decision.  

goateeki,

I hear frustration in your words. I had a lot of conflict in my marriage and communication is way better after our marriage was over. My ex finds controversy when she's unstable. I stopped reacting to it.

[rarsweet]

Oh yes it would be from small things like picking dinner to picking an apartment. He would not make a decision. I remember he would often say that he had come into my life and it was his job to fit into it. Yet nothing I did was right for him. Now looking back this was a huge red flag. He leeches onto someone. He has no identity of his own. This simply makes it possible to avoid any self responsibility.

[goateeki]

I can also say that pointing to an indisputable reality in an effort to show her that there is no basis for her anger caused her to accuse me of escalating conflict.  Think of that.  There is relative peace, and she brings about conflict. I show her with facts that that, thank goodness, there is no reason for it.  She is simply mistaken in her assumptions. A healthy person would greet this with relief and happiness, but there is so much anger inside this person that it would enrage her.  

Is this validation, or is it JADEing?

You know the truth, reality. I was in a way constantly accused of cheating,  like every man from her culture, despite me not being from their culture (and this was her B&W thinking). Then she cheated, while casting herself as a victim. Dysfunctional enablers surrounded her due to them buying into her narrative.

It's definitely maddening to view distortions of reality, if not out right lies and denial.

How do you work given her distorted world-view to the benefit of your kids and for yourself?

Validating or JADEing... .

In the end, I don't think it's ever a good idea to insulate a person from reality.  Part of the reason pwBPD are pwBPD is that they have either been encouraged to ignore reality or they believe that they are not strong enough to deal with it.  Sometimes I believe that we are encouraged to validate simply because it is a way for us to tolerate the intolerable, or endure the unendurable.

Today my diagnosed BPD ex wife's godmother contacted me to tell me that she has seen me in social situations since I divorced my wife, and I am like a new person.  She was very specific in what she said to me, too, describing how I came to conduct myself in social situations (when married) over the decades and she compared me in social situations with my girlfriend now.  I am like a new person because I am no longer in a situation where I'd be critiqued within ten minutes of leaving the party, dinner, visit, etc., for speaking too much or too little, or spending too much time speaking with a particular person (most often a female).  I no longer risk having my head taken off the minute we're out of the presence of company.  

Really, the energy of validating ANYTHING for a pwBPD is not something I feel we nons ought to expend.  I realize that some people have made decisions to stay, and I respect that.  I just find it hard to believe that compromising with life this way is a long term strategy that benefits the non.  It's like living with Type II diabetes when so much can be done to become non-Type II diabetic.

How do you work?  I don't know if you can.  If we want to adhere to reality, if we want to avoid the mistake of insulating people from the consequences of their actions, I don't know how you can productively "live" with a pwBPD.  It takes huge levels of compromise.  I have less hope now that we can communicate peacefully as unmarried people because she seems to find controversy where it doesn't exist.  Sort of the way we are urged to deal with the IRS -- it's best to avoid any attention at all.  

Note I'm not telling anyone to run, and as I said, I respect the stay decision.  

goateeki,

I hear frustration in your words. I had a lot of conflict in my marriage and communication is way better after our marriage was over. My ex finds controversy when she's unstable. I stopped reacting to it.

I think that's where I'm getting to.  I think I feel like I have to remain in the game in some way because there are kids involved, but I also find that remaining in the game doesn't offer the complete change I was hoping for after divorce.  It's like you have to keep communication to an absolute minimum to succeed at having a decent life.

[Mutt]

I can also say that pointing to an indisputable reality in an effort to show her that there is no basis for her anger caused her to accuse me of escalating conflict.  Think of that.  There is relative peace, and she brings about conflict. I show her with facts that that, thank goodness, there is no reason for it.  She is simply mistaken in her assumptions. A healthy person would greet this with relief and happiness, but there is so much anger inside this person that it would enrage her.  

Is this validation, or is it JADEing?

You know the truth, reality. I was in a way constantly accused of cheating,  like every man from her culture, despite me not being from their culture (and this was her B&W thinking). Then she cheated, while casting herself as a victim. Dysfunctional enablers surrounded her due to them buying into her narrative.

It's definitely maddening to view distortions of reality, if not out right lies and denial.

How do you work given her distorted world-view to the benefit of your kids and for yourself?

Validating or JADEing... .

In the end, I don't think it's ever a good idea to insulate a person from reality.  Part of the reason pwBPD are pwBPD is that they have either been encouraged to ignore reality or they believe that they are not strong enough to deal with it.  Sometimes I believe that we are encouraged to validate simply because it is a way for us to tolerate the intolerable, or endure the unendurable.

Today my diagnosed BPD ex wife's godmother contacted me to tell me that she has seen me in social situations since I divorced my wife, and I am like a new person.  She was very specific in what she said to me, too, describing how I came to conduct myself in social situations (when married) over the decades and she compared me in social situations with my girlfriend now.  I am like a new person because I am no longer in a situation where I'd be critiqued within ten minutes of leaving the party, dinner, visit, etc., for speaking too much or too little, or spending too much time speaking with a particular person (most often a female).  I no longer risk having my head taken off the minute we're out of the presence of company.  

Really, the energy of validating ANYTHING for a pwBPD is not something I feel we nons ought to expend.  I realize that some people have made decisions to stay, and I respect that.  I just find it hard to believe that compromising with life this way is a long term strategy that benefits the non.  It's like living with Type II diabetes when so much can be done to become non-Type II diabetic.

How do you work?  I don't know if you can.  If we want to adhere to reality, if we want to avoid the mistake of insulating people from the consequences of their actions, I don't know how you can productively "live" with a pwBPD.  It takes huge levels of compromise.  I have less hope now that we can communicate peacefully as unmarried people because she seems to find controversy where it doesn't exist.  Sort of the way we are urged to deal with the IRS -- it's best to avoid any attention at all.  

Note I'm not telling anyone to run, and as I said, I respect the stay decision.  

goateeki,

I hear frustration in your words. I had a lot of conflict in my marriage and communication is way better after our marriage was over. My ex finds controversy when she's unstable. I stopped reacting to it.

I think that's where I'm getting to.  I think I feel like I have to remain in the game in some way because there are kids involved, but I also find that remaining in the game doesn't offer the complete change I was hoping for after divorce.  It's like you have to keep communication to an absolute minimum to succeed at having a decent life.

I had to set the example. I think that it's not uncommon after divorce where there is a period where one or both parties have hurt feelings and they lash out. It took time for things to settle down after my marriage was over.

More often than not she doesn't have an issue. Sometimes she feels out of control with something that is going on with her and she tries to control whomever and sometimes it's directed at me. I may have to defend a boundary but I don't react to her and it stops.

What's your definition of a decent life? I felt depressed, anxious, hopeless, dread, walking on eggshells, worry, fear and guilt. After my divorce I don't think about my ex wife and I don't worry about her. I don't have any more obligations to her other than to our kids. I'm friendly with my ex wife but my relationship is with my kids.

I feel freedom, peace, relaxed, happy, positive about the future, I'm not walking on eggshells and I can do what I want. I have made new friends, people that don't constantly invalidate my thoughts and feelings and respect me, and I don't invalidate them and I respect them too. Its a brand new life.

[Fr4nz]

What's your definition of a decent life? I felt depressed, anxious, hopeless, dread, walking on eggshells, worry, fear and guilt. After my divorce I don't think about my ex wife and I don't worry about her. I don't have any more obligations to her other than to our kids. I'm friendly with my ex wife but my relationship is with my kids.

I feel freedom, peace, relaxed, happy, positive about the future, I'm not walking on eggshells and I can do what I want. I have made new friends, people that don't constantly invalidate my thoughts and feelings and respect me, and I don't invalidate them and I respect them too. Its a brand new life.

I can relate... .On the one hand that's great, because finally we can live our own life. On the other hand, isnt't that a little bit sad? That we cannot have a genuine relationship with a person we loved so much? Considering also that, in the end, many BPD partners have indeed great qualities/talents from a personal point of view... .

[Mutt]

What's your definition of a decent life? I felt depressed, anxious, hopeless, dread, walking on eggshells, worry, fear and guilt. After my divorce I don't think about my ex wife and I don't worry about her. I don't have any more obligations to her other than to our kids. I'm friendly with my ex wife but my relationship is with my kids.

I feel freedom, peace, relaxed, happy, positive about the future, I'm not walking on eggshells and I can do what I want. I have made new friends, people that don't constantly invalidate my thoughts and feelings and respect me, and I don't invalidate them and I respect them too. Its a brand new life.

I can relate... .On the one hand that's great, because finally we can live our own life. On the other hand, isnt't that a little bit sad? That we cannot have a genuine relationship with a person we loved so much? Considering also that, in the end, many BPD partners have indeed great qualities/talents from a personal point of view... .

I can't fix and I choose to not save my ex wife She has to want to help herself in order to get better. Maybe she will get help someday. Maybe she won't get help. I had to accept that. She is who she is.

[goateeki]

Mutt, Fr4nz, maybe it was incorrect to use the term decent life.  My life is by any measure (and also by my own belief) vastly better than it was before.  I cannot believe how fortunate I am, which in a strange way contributes to a kind of survivor's guilt when I think about the disruption to the lives of my children.

What I am getting at is this: the war is over, but there seems to be no way to clear all the landmines left behind and make the terrain safe.  I don't know if you have followed any of my old posts, but my ex wife is the nonpareil of BPD women.  Imagine being alternatively accused of being obsessed with her, and then ignoring her, when there was no change at all in my behavior, or being accused of sleeping with her hairdresser (female) and then being accused of being gay (my best friend happens to be gay).  Now translate those tendencies to post-divorce life and the raising of two young children together.  I never could do anything right in my marriage to her, and that is true of being divorced from her. 

There is no version of reality in which I'm OK (forget a person of real merit).  Any version of reality in which I, the initiator of the divorce, is an OK person poses huge risk to her, because it would mean that she is a factor in the lives that she and our children now live. 

I don't think that she will ever get help.  She might.  But I think that the current state of affairs between us is akin to one of those diseases that can't be cured but also takes 35 years to kill you.  I hope I'm wrong.

[Moselle]

Her goal in her email was to get us all to stop talking to each other.

So when you started talking about what was true and real about the email she got even more mad because you were missing the real point.

Yes. I recognise this. To allow an ex spouse to develop an emotional connection with their chd is a threat. Remember BPD is about an engulfing primary attachment with a child  (it's often what happened to.them).

And when we connect with our chidren, they think they are losing control because they cannot form those normal healthy attachments based on respect and empathy.

[Moselle]

Her goal in her email was to get us all to stop talking to each other.

So when you started talking about what was true and real about the email she got even more mad because you were missing the real point.

Yes. I recognise this. To allow an ex spouse to develop an emotional connection with their chd is a threat. Remember BPD is about an engulfing primary attachment with a child  (it's often what happened to.them).

And when we connect with our chidren, they think they are losing control because they cannot form those normal healthy attachments based on respect and empathy.

[steve195915]

I find it hard to resolve this very issue. The validation my wife receives is often a trigger. When she is splitting and I am the evil one then all validation is perceived as a threat. It seems that unless she gets some baseline stability, her reality is skewed. I'm not sure even that would ensure any kind change in her reality.

The problem for me is accountability. Often, you will have to lie to validate bc their behavior is so out of bounds that validating would have the basis in a lie even if you try to be validating towards them. Boundaries don't really work bc they just do it anyway. She is accountable to no one save herself... .maybe. Her guilt is internalized. I am evil and regarded as such so my validation attempts are so beneath her that they don't get heard. I've read some posters here state that it is helpful. It's almost as if she doesn't believe anything positive that comes out of my mouth due to her own internal hatred/dialogue. She will regularly forget entire conversations let alone any validation that happens within them. I'm beginning to feel she's too deep to reach or have a meaningful relationship in any healthy way.

From what I read on here it seems like there is a mindset that validation is somehow giving in, falsely acknowledging it being your fault, and agreeing with their false perceptions of the truth.  That's not the intent of validation.  You are never to validate the invalid.  Proper validation is very difficult as I find myself starting off right but then wanting to explain or defend myself, trying to find a middle ground and agreement to the issue but thats also not the intent of validation.   I found it worked best if you use validation to just acknowledge their feelings, not to agree with them, and not to provide any further explanations.  It sure diffused any further escalation and usually that issue ended there.  For instances where the BPDex was upset about something completely untrue, I would say I could understand her anger or feel her pain if someone did xyz things to her and that any person would feel the same way.  If applicable, I may sometimes add that I will do my best to make sure that the situation doesn't occur in the future.  Again I'm not admitting fault and that was the end of the issue.