Talked To My (In-Limbo) Ex Last Night (Part 2)

[MapleBob]

Huh. Interesting development: I took a risk today and asked her if she'd like to talk this weekend if she's free. I also mentioned that Sunday would be exactly two years since we first met in person, and that it might be nice to mark the occasion. She agreed! Just a light talk, not a heavy one, but with the intention of getting some good vibes built up before we have any real talk. She also seemed eager to tell me that they had signed and filed their divorce papers today, and I congratulated her sincerely.

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[steve195915]

Huh. Interesting development: I took a risk today and asked her if she'd like to talk this weekend if she's free. I also mentioned that Sunday would be exactly two years since we first met in person, and that it might be nice to mark the occasion. She agreed! Just a light talk, not a heavy one, but with the intention of getting some good vibes built up before we have any real talk. She also seemed eager to tell me that they had signed and filed their divorce papers today, and I congratulated her sincerely.

That's great news and hopefully you can sleep well and have a some peace.  Seems like you caught her at a time when she had some relief of her stresses so she was more receptive to you.  Of course you are  optomistic for the weekend talk and hope to have some of your needs addressed. Just hoping for good vibes is not much to ask.  Have you thought of how you will respond to and handle possible scenarios come this weekend if it doesn't go as you hope?  She does have alot going on in her life so she may not be ready to discuss much of your relationship. 

Hopefully all goes well and you have a great talk that meets or exceeds all your expectations and needs!

[MapleBob]

No serious relationship talk this weekend, just connecting and probably reminiscing. So my expectations are low in terms of there being any long-term needs addressed. I'm just happy that she seemed pretty receptive. That makes three talks this month - that's more than one! (Yeah, you can see much I've lowered my expectations!)

[Skip]

No serious relationship talk this weekend, just connecting and probably reminiscing. So my expectations are low in terms of there being any long-term needs addressed. I'm just happy that she seemed pretty receptive. That makes three talks this month - that's more than one! (Yeah, you can see much I've lowered my expectations!)

This is progress, maplebob.  Just hold yourself down and don't get pulled into a relationship conversation.  I also suggest that you set your timer and get off the call after 20 minutes. Cutting it short (have a upbeat reason, like you are doing a cameo on Law and Order) without setting a time for the next call will start to open the pathway to you being able to initiate calls.

Hold yourself back. Don't swarm.  Do overdo it.

[MapleBob]

This is progress, maplebob.  Just hold yourself down and don't get pulled into a relationship conversation.  I also suggest that you set your timer and get off the call after 20 minutes. Cutting it short (have a upbeat reason, like you are doing a cameo on Law and Order) without setting a time for the next call will start to open the pathway to you being able to initiate calls.

Hold yourself back. Don't swarm.  :)o overdo it.

I did NOT expect progress, but yeah, I'm not going to put any pressure on it. The next call is already set up for shortly after Christmas, so I don't need to worry about that even. 20 minutes would be very short for us, so I don't know about that, but we both agreed that it would probably be shorter than usual, so I'll try. I want to reach for meaning, like "What's changed? Is she feeling sentimental? Is it for comfort? Is she feeling more positive?", but I'm trying to stop those thoughts and stay in the moment.

[livednlearned]

20 minutes would be very short for us, so I don't know about that, but we both agreed that it would probably be shorter than usual, so I'll try. I want to reach for meaning, like "What's changed? Is she feeling sentimental? Is it for comfort? Is she feeling more positive?", but I'm trying to stop those thoughts and stay in the moment.

Maybe the goal, then, is for you to set a time in your mind and stick to it. When you're setting a boundary that's not easy, it can really help to say it at the start of the conversation. "I'm really glad we could talk today, and you sound good. Just a heads up, I can only talk for 30 min." Then, as you get 10 minutes away, remind her that you only have a few more minutes to chat.

If you have long marathon talks every time you talk, it's going to start to feel like a chore for her. Even if she likes talking to you, even if she's the one urging the call to last longer, even if she sounds ok during the call, things will start to get weird if they are always long calls.

[MapleBob]

If you have long marathon talks every time you talk, it's going to start to feel like a chore for her. Even if she likes talking to you, even if she's the one urging the call to last longer, even if she sounds ok during the call, things will start to get weird if they are always long calls.

Why's that? ("Things will start to get weird... ."

Given that we don't talk very often, why should I be cutting short a call that is going well?

[livednlearned]

If you have long marathon talks every time you talk, it's going to start to feel like a chore for her. Even if she likes talking to you, even if she's the one urging the call to last longer, even if she sounds ok during the call, things will start to get weird if they are always long calls.

Why's that? ("Things will start to get weird... ."

Given that we don't talk very often, why should I be cutting short a call that is going well?

I could be wrong. I'm looking at it from my own perspective, having been in a LDR.

Long calls are a short-game concern.

Short calls are a long-game concern.

Long calls are more likely to veer toward conversations about her ex-husband, for one. And two, if she can't count on you to have boundaries, that puts the burden on her, and she seems to be struggling with this skill in her life in general. So then you become a source of pressure. Three, if every time she peeks over the wall and sees that you are still there, and still there and still there and still there, she has no reason to change a thing. You're there, so why double down and think about doing things different? If you give her all the intense emotions of a relationship without her having to make it a relationship, then you're looking at status quo for a long time.

This may be only applicable to my situation, but I also resented the long calls. I wanted them, I resented them. So I started to avoid talking on the phone at all. They interrupted my life, I was really busy, and often I ended up getting off the call and felt irritated that I had all these other things still staring me down, all things I hadn't been doing because of our marathon calls. And probably most importantly, the calls reminded me how much he really wasn't a part of my life. 

[MapleBob]

Long calls are a short-game concern.

Short calls are a long-game concern.

Interesting thoughts! I'm not sure that I'm that much of a game-player, but she's definitely susceptible to "game", I think. I guess my worry about holding back is that it might establish a *new* status quo that is pretty casual (and she has claimed to want casual, even while acting very NOT casual), and I want things to be moving forward. But, for sure, it would be best for the forward momentum to be coming from her. I understand the difference between "pushing" and "pulling", so maybe creating a vacuum is a step to be taken.

Really, I'm trying to be safe and not lay on a lot of pressure, hoping that comfort will increase to the point that I can at least go and see her without her being afraid that things will go nuts.

And, for me, I might want to touch on our intentions for the *next* talk, which is supposed to be the "heavy talk" where we get into some future relationship status/goals/etc. Then I can come here and be like "we're going to talk about XYZ, how should I handle this to get to ABC... .?"

[DreamGirl]

I also think there's a benefit to limiting your being available.

I mean, she should fight for you a little bit here.

[MapleBob]

I mean, she should fight for you a little bit here.

I would tend to agree with you here DreamGirl, but I suspect that she thinks that she IS fighting for me, up to her current capacity. In a "this is the best I can do" kind of way. Which is a pretty lame amount of effort, but she seems to be giving me somewhat less pushback at the moment at least.

[livednlearned]

she seems to be giving me somewhat less pushback at the moment at least.

What do you attribute that to? Any chance this is a result of you taking some small steps to retreat?

[MapleBob]

she seems to be giving me somewhat less pushback at the moment at least.

What do you attribute that to? Any chance this is a result of you taking some small steps to retreat?

Hard to say, really. I think there's a number of potential factors. I'm not retreating exactly, I'm just pushing less, and keeping things calmer - which she appreciates, but might interpret as "he's moving into friendship mode, awesome." (That's, ehhhh, not entirely true.) It could also be that, given her therapy/ex situation she's seen my value as a supportive force in her life, as someone she can talk to who knows the whole story and has seen it close-up. *That's* probably the place I need to pull back from, probably, because that's a total boyfriend role, and I'm not her boyfriend right now.

[DreamGirl]

Is that a boyfriend role?

I hate talking about my husbands ex wife. Big, huge boundary for me actually. I leave that nonsense to him.

[MapleBob]

It is with her. That's definitely a qualifying factor for a boyfriend relationship with her: I have a kid, and I have an ongoing family relationship with her father. Granted, that relationship is a pain in the butt for me, but it's not going to go away. She's making more autonomy for herself within it, but it's still something that a serious partner will have to contend with, fair or not. If we were casual sex partners or friends it wouldn't be as big a deal, but on the boyfriend level he's a consideration.

[MapleBob]

To be perfectly honest, I'm not 100% sure why she talks to me at all, other than vague "I know I'm supposed to have you in my life" kind of things that she says. I kind of wonder what she'd do if I stopped trying.

[DreamGirl]

It is with her. That's definitely a qualifying factor for a boyfriend relationship with her: I have a kid, and I have an ongoing family relationship with her father. Granted, that relationship is a pain in the butt for me, but it's not going to go away. She's making more autonomy for herself within it, but it's still something that a serious partner will have to contend with, fair or not. If we were casual sex partners or friends it wouldn't be as big a deal, but on the boyfriend level he's a consideration.

My husband used to think he couldn't deal with his ex-wife on his own.

How empowering it was for him when he realized he could.  

I mean it's normal to discuss past relationships. But to be this pseudo therapist to bridge a gap between the two of them or help him figure out how to be less dysfunctional with her? No thanks.

Again, she's the mother of his children. Her OK-ness is very important to him. I respect that 100%. When he complains to me about her and all he does for her, I simply respond with "that must be rough. What do you want for dinner?"



I'm a completely separate relationship. I don't need to be a part of theirs and she certainly doesn't need to be a third party in my marriage.  

[Skip]

I'm a completely separate relationship though. I don't need to be a part of theirs and she certainly doesn't need to be a third party in my marriage.  

Really good point.

I kind of wonder what she'd do if I stopped trying.

This is your fear - it would be over.

This the benefit - the relationship would be balanced. She would start to think of you in a more balanced way. You would find out what she wants and cares about.

I think the other posters are getting at a fundamental issue regarding the relationship dynamics - are you willing to let this be an equal relationship and not have the need to dominate her in order to feel safe.  Are you strong enough and confident enough to loosen your grip on her so that she can want to come to you on her terms rather than responding to your demands and expectations.

She hasn't spent face time with you in 9 months. She reduced phone calls to one a month. You fully expected her to end it last week.

Now you have backed off "a wee tiny bit" and it has helped. You will need to do a lot more before this is going to become a relationship where she wants you - pursues you - can't wait till your plane arrives.

[MapleBob]

First, I want to clarify that she doesn't want me to step in and "fix" anything with her ex-husband. It's just a fact that he's a part of her life, and will continue to be, and that his presence complicates matters. It's expected that I understand that, and that I'm supportive of that. He's "first Dad", I'm (potentially) "second Dad". I'm not trying to refute that the situation is complicated and weird - it sure is! - but it is what it is. I'm not her boyfriend right now, so maybe he shouldn't be my problem right now. But she IS, and this is a big deal thing in her life right now; I've gotta work with that.

This is your fear - it would be over.

This the benefit - the relationship would be balanced. She would start to think of you in a more balanced way. You would find out what she wants and cares about.

She hasn't spent face time with you in 9 months. She reduced phone calls to one a month. You fully expected her to end it last week.

Now you have backed off "a wee tiny bit" and it has helped. You will need to do a lot more before this is going to become a relationship where she wants you - pursues you - can't wait till your plane arrives.

Yes, I'm absolutely terrified that dropping my end of the rope will immediately result in her dropping hers. OR that it will result in less and less of a relationship as time goes on, until there's nothing left. OR that she'll go "great, now we're casual friends, I like this! I'm going to go find another boyfriend now, and still talk to good old MapleBob whenever I feel like it."

Then again, she HAS said things to the affect of "you always get in touch first, if you just waited I'd reach out to you instead eventually." So, sure, she's not trying to leave, but she's also not pursuing in any kind of a consistent or frequent way.

I get it: absence makes the heart grow fonder. But absence also makes the heart move on, if that's what the goal is. And I feel like that's what would happen with her.

[DreamGirl]

I do get caught up in the stepparenting aspect of this (I've been there done that) and I have such a strong belief that you need to let their relationship be what it is. Your focus being on your own relationship.

Professionals tend to advise that you step out of the muck. It causes undue strain on them and undue strain on you. I agree that he is a part of her life, therefore will be a part of yours. I'm not saying ignore his existence. I'm saying that each relationship is independent of the other.

I tell stepmoms all the time --- keep your bedroom a no-ex zone. There's a time and place for everything.

If I only had one day a month to talk to my husband, it certainly wouldn't be about her.   

I get it: absence makes the heart grow fonder. But absence also makes the heart move on, if that's what the goal is. And I feel like that's what would happen with her.

I think disconnecting makes the heart move on. You're still connecting. 

Allowing space with your being something to pursue helps you, helps her.

Sometimes we try so hard to control these situations by guessing what the other person might or might not due. Usually it's better to control what we contribute and what may be better for us. 

Your being at her beck and call doesn't seem like it's benefiting your relationship at all.

[Skip]

But absence also makes the heart move on, if that's what the goal is. And I feel like that's what would happen with her.

Smothering her made her move on - you haven't seen her in 9 months. Backing off, just even a little, showed you more positive results.

Yes, I'm absolutely terrified that dropping my end of the rope will immediately result in her dropping hers... .

It's not attractive to her.

[MapleBob]

Alright, well, I've got a "nice talk" scheduled for Sunday and a "processing talk" scheduled tentatively for the week after Christmas. What's my move? You're all getting through to me with the "make space for her to move in to" and "set boundaries around the ex-husband" advice. Let's get to the "how", the actual steps to take?

[Skip]

I'd just be a beam of sunlight for the holiday season. Upbeat. Happy. Real. Take all pressure off. Same as weak last week.

Have a nice call, keep it short so she will be motivated to call you to finish - let her make the next move.  Its the Holiday, it not much risk. Just, "this was a fun talking to you, gotta run, call me when you have time and lets finish this conversation"

Personally, I don't think a "relationship" talk is going to improve things, I think it will make it worse (cement the feelings she has now). I'd let it slide and deal with it only if she pursues it. You are better to cement things when the relationship is going better.

Giving her space to move in is a great way to phrase it.

[MapleBob]

Thanks for the thread split!

I'd just be a beam of sunlight for the holiday season. Upbeat. Happy. Real. Take all pressure off. Same as weak last week.

Personally, I don't think a "relationship" talk is going to improve things, I think it will make it worse (cement the feelings she has now). I'd let it slide and deal with it only if she pursues it. You are better to cement things when the relationship is going better.

Giving her space to move in is a great way to phrase it.

I think I can get behind this line of thinking. I don't want to cause any more damage or cause her to backpedal. Should I just come right out and say that we shouldn't have a more relationship talk after Christmas? Let that stuff go until *she* initiates something?

It still scares me that that might result in "welp, that's that then, I guess." I want to be moving forward.

[Skip]

Let that stuff go until *she* initiates something?

Yes. For now.

[MapleBob]

Let that stuff go until *she* initiates something?

Yes. For now.

I guess that's the move then. I might need to do a little of both - pulling back AND reaching out, because results have seemingly come from the combination of those. We wouldn't be talking again this weekend if I hadn't asked.

[Skip]

We wouldn't be talking again this weekend if I hadn't asked.

You don't know that - even she told you that she would have gotten back to you in the past except you're always ahead of her.

[MapleBob]

We wouldn't be talking again this weekend if I hadn't asked.

You don't know that - even she told you that she would have gotten back to you in the past except you're always ahead of her.

Well, I guess not, but I assume she would have waited until after Christmas, as was the plan.

[MapleBob]

It's probably pretty weird to talk to your ex on your would-have-been-anniversary, huh? This whole situation is bizarre. I kind of have to laugh sometimes!

[MapleBob]

Granted my moods are fairly labile too when it comes to her, but I kind of want to have the relationship talk. I think that a check-in at least could be helpful. One of the big problems in our relationship when we were together was sweeping things under the rug, mainly to keep the good vibes going over the long distance. That sounds pretty similar to my game plan of "letting things remain calm," which didn't work then. We both wound up developing these separate fantasy relationship perspectives. I see her as avoidant-attached, and I fear that she won't break the new status quo of all this distance.

On the other hand, it's true: me being a bit more enigmatic and detached might create more of a vacuum to suck her towards me, but yikes, it might not work!

And again: I don't understand why she even agrees to talk to me, or why she's still around at all. ?