New Triangles forming I want to be positive influence

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

 As many of you know.  We are moving much closer to my wife's FOO.  Increased closeness has changed some dynamics.  I think I see a new dynamic forming, or old dynamic that is moving back to forefront due to proximity.  Women on my wife's side of family are "BPDish" in their approach to life and conflict.    Below is link and I copied out my goal.  I realize I may not "fix" things, but I have a choice of what role I will play.  As many of you also know, I'm fine being a one man band on many issues    .  So the real goal is that I do it right.  Secondary goal is that me doing it right, nudges several other dynamics to a better place in my family and her FOO.     https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle  

 Escaping the Karpman Drama Triangle If you find yourself embroiled in a Karpman Drama Triangle, resist the temptation to play the exaggerated role of the victim, rescuer  or persecutor  in which you have been cast (or have cast yourself), and counter with an action that causes your opponent to see their extreme position (without you telling them).  Move to the center. Stop participating as a victim, rescuer or persecutor. Instead, find and hold a center position. The center of the drama triangle contains elements of each corner - it is a combination of sensitivity, compassion, and responsibility - with a solutions focus, even if the solution is retreat.  

       MIL (mother in law) wife (mine) FIL (father in law) Me (      

FF)  I think that there is an effort to put me and the FIL as "rescuers" to conflict coming from my MIL towards my wife.  As they jockey for persecutor postiion and then resign themselves to victim stance while plotting their next move towards persecutor.  I've heard about this dynamic as my wife and complained to me about horrible things that MIL has said to her that were provocative.  Of course my wife took the bait.  Got burned, tried to persecute, failed and approached me to "fix" her hurt.  The latest iteration of this was over my nephew (who has been ruined by SIL's BPDish ways (cheating, instability, etc etc) mentioning that he wanted to join the military.  He will be senior next year.  So my wife shares this information with MIL.  MIL is alarmed and says that she can't believe nephew would be that "foolish".    My wife takes the bait and asks what is foolish about joining the military.  (I'm retired, MIL brother is retired as well).     MIL ups her game by saying that anyone that joins the military is "foolish".  Wife gives back some banter about "mom you can't be serious, what are you saying"  MIL ups her game some more and really emphasizes "fool  iiiiiisshhh" when she says it this time.  Imagine the nasty hissing tone that goes with that.  At this point my wife is really pissed and attempts to go on attack (switch roles).  Wife tells MIL that she is "just feeling bad, because her son didn't serve."   MIL expresses shock and hurt and runs from room "how could you say that to me, ?"  Runs to back room where FIL is and "tattles" on my wife loud enough so that my wife can hear.  Although the only thing told to FIL is that wife things BIL is bad because he didn't serve in military.    Wife realizes she has been had and leaves house.    She complains to me about MIL and relates the story to me.  I was an active listener, gave her a hug but did not tell her she was right or wrong.  Said things like that sucks (and some other weak attempts at validation)  I can see this is going to be a regular pattern.  I suspect this was pattern when my wife grew up with them.  I want to be supportive of my wife, but I want to stay in the center.  And hopefully can nudge my wife in right direction to avoid conflict.  MIL is about double or possibly triple (as bad) as my wife in "BPDish" stuff.   Basically a grumpy, unhappy person that has to "put up" with the rest of the world being idiots.  Claims to be Christian and also claims that sinning is OK if the intent of your sin is to show someone else the error of their ways.  Basically it's ok to do bad things to other people if you are focused on fixing them.    Any thoughts on strategy and tactics for me?        

FF

[formflier]

 As many of you know.  We are moving much closer to my wife's FOO.  Increased closeness has changed some dynamics.  I think I see a new dynamic forming, or old dynamic that is moving back to forefront due to proximity.  Women on my wife's side of family are "BPDish" in their approach to life and conflict.    Below is link and I copied out my goal.  I realize I may not "fix" things, but I have a choice of what role I will play.  As many of you also know, I'm fine being a one man band on many issues    .  So the real goal is that I do it right.  Secondary goal is that me doing it right, nudges several other dynamics to a better place in my family and her FOO.     https://bpdfamily.com/content/karpman-drama-triangle  

 Escaping the Karpman Drama Triangle If you find yourself embroiled in a Karpman Drama Triangle, resist the temptation to play the exaggerated role of the victim, rescuer  or persecutor  in which you have been cast (or have cast yourself), and counter with an action that causes your opponent to see their extreme position (without you telling them).  Move to the center. Stop participating as a victim, rescuer or persecutor. Instead, find and hold a center position. The center of the drama triangle contains elements of each corner - it is a combination of sensitivity, compassion, and responsibility - with a solutions focus, even if the solution is retreat.  

       MIL (mother in law) wife (mine) FIL (father in law) Me (      

FF)  I think that there is an effort to put me and the FIL as "rescuers" to conflict coming from my MIL towards my wife.  As they jockey for persecutor postiion and then resign themselves to victim stance while plotting their next move towards persecutor.  I've heard about this dynamic as my wife and complained to me about horrible things that MIL has said to her that were provocative.  Of course my wife took the bait.  Got burned, tried to persecute, failed and approached me to "fix" her hurt.  The latest iteration of this was over my nephew (who has been ruined by SIL's BPDish ways (cheating, instability, etc etc) mentioning that he wanted to join the military.  He will be senior next year.  So my wife shares this information with MIL.  MIL is alarmed and says that she can't believe nephew would be that "foolish".    My wife takes the bait and asks what is foolish about joining the military.  (I'm retired, MIL brother is retired as well).     MIL ups her game by saying that anyone that joins the military is "foolish".  Wife gives back some banter about "mom you can't be serious, what are you saying"  MIL ups her game some more and really emphasizes "fool  iiiiiisshhh" when she says it this time.  Imagine the nasty hissing tone that goes with that.  At this point my wife is really pissed and attempts to go on attack (switch roles).  Wife tells MIL that she is "just feeling bad, because her son didn't serve."   MIL expresses shock and hurt and runs from room "how could you say that to me, ?"  Runs to back room where FIL is and "tattles" on my wife loud enough so that my wife can hear.  Although the only thing told to FIL is that wife things BIL is bad because he didn't serve in military.    Wife realizes she has been had and leaves house.    She complains to me about MIL and relates the story to me.  I was an active listener, gave her a hug but did not tell her she was right or wrong.  Said things like that sucks (and some other weak attempts at validation)  I can see this is going to be a regular pattern.  I suspect this was pattern when my wife grew up with them.  I want to be supportive of my wife, but I want to stay in the center.  And hopefully can nudge my wife in right direction to avoid conflict.  MIL is about double or possibly triple (as bad) as my wife in "BPDish" stuff.   Basically a grumpy, unhappy person that has to "put up" with the rest of the world being idiots.  Claims to be Christian and also claims that sinning is OK if the intent of your sin is to show someone else the error of their ways.  Basically it's ok to do bad things to other people if you are focused on fixing them.    Any thoughts on strategy and tactics for me?        

FF

[Notwendy]

The moment you considered this, you stepped on the triangle as rescuer.

As many of you also know, I'm fine being a one man band on many issues  tongue tongue grin.  So the real goal is that I do it right.  Secondary goal is that me doing it right, nudges several other dynamics to a better place in my family and her FOO.

Using a military context- I can see potential land mines on this battlefield.

Having to be "right" to do this right. They may not think your way is right, even if you do, and trying to convince them is making them wrong. Making people wrong is being on the drama triangle.

Getting involved in who said what and who thinks what can be micromanaging each conversation.

The only tactic that comes to mind is " not my circus, not my monkeys"

Not my battle, not my soldiers.

Your wife's FOO can seem batty to you, but, it was this way before you were in the picture, and it is probably going to be this way with you in the picture. Family dynamics are strong. Stepping into this is not your place. It can backfire.

They are their own individuals who can say and think what they want. MIL may think the military is foolish, she may think that tomorrow elephants will fall from the sky. She is going to think what she thinks.

This is your wife, but this is her family. The way they relate to each other is their dynamics that are a combination of all of them, over several generations. If it bothers your wife, then it is up to her to deal with it. Not having been raised in that FOO, you are not aware of all the unspoken family rules and patterns.

Stay off the battlefield. You don't know where the landmines are. The only way out of the triangle is to not go there, on this one at least.

[formflier]

  So, do I walk away from my wife when she wants to "tattle" on her mom?  My understanding is that yes,   I'm on the triangle.  That is not necessarily bad or good.   Lots of times it turns out bad because we don't know better or consider our role.  I don't want to take the "extreme" positions and want to go towards the center.  That sounds all well and good.    My question is how this translates in what I actually do.  Let's start with what I'm not going to be doing long term.  I'm not going to regularly be listening to horrible tales of MIL persecuting wife.    I think zero tolerance would be extreme.  I think unlimited access for my wife to moan about MIL anytime she wants is extreme.  What is healthy?  Right?  OK, back to military analogies and my one man band thing.  If we cook up "my way" and nobody likes it, I'm fine with that.  If I step on a few landmines as I navigate this, I suspect I can patch myself up.  Yes I absolutely want to make sure I have the theory and principle correct first, but I also want to translate that into what I do and say when approached by a wife that wants to be rescued.    I don't wan to turn away from her, but I might toss her some rope and see if she can extricate herself, vice me extricating her.  Again, sounds great but what does that look like?        

FF

[Notwendy]

Anywhere on the triangle is being in the drama. It doesn't matter what role you are in. It is all drama. As to good or bad, it depends on you. Some people enjoy having a role in the drama, but if you want to stay out of the drama, then stay out.

Its really up to you, but I don't think there is a way to navigate or have a strategy for this. There are potential landmines and even if you knew where they were, in dysfunctional families, the landmines move!

Do you walk away from your wife when she wants to tattle on her mom?

I think it would be rude to walk away, but you could set a boundary on yourself not to add to the discussion, or try to fix. You can share that boundary- that you will listen to her feelings but not get into her relationship with her mother.

My mom tries to tattle on other family members. I have told her that I do not wish to be in discussions about other family members behind their backs. It took a few times for me to politely remind her. I don't walk away. I can listen to her feelings, but I don't jump in with advice, or add to the conversation. I can validate " I know this upsets you" but not say a lot mote.

Your wife may not like this, but you can be polite about it. You can listen to her feelings. Surely it would be impossible to not speak about her mother. She might want to vent to you, but you don't have to jump in and give advice or offer.

[formflier]

  I guess it depends on how often it happens, but I'm not going to regularly listen to my wife vent about what her mom has done to her.    When it's once a month (on average) that is one thing.  I've heard stuff several times in the past several weeks and I've not advised or fixed anything.  I'm also not going to keep up this level of availability.  I've not been in this habit of being a regular venting ground for her family issues, and I'm not going to start.  No crisis here, but something I need to figure out in the next few weeks.  Doubtful this magically fixes itself.      

FF

[KateCat]

Nice opening gambit, MIL! (If this were a chess game, it would probably be a named move. )

You did great not taking the bait. And Wendy's no-nonsense suggestions are going to give you even more strength and peace of mind as you establish the new ways in the new location.

[Joem678]

By choosing to go NC, am I taking myself out of this drama triangle or am I just putting myself in a new role?

[formflier]

Nice opening gambit, MIL! (If this were a chess game, it would probably be a named move. )  

     No kidding.    On the one hand, it gives me hope to look at generations and see that it gets better.  MIL is way better than the grandma, wife is way better than the MIL.    SIL is looking to "outdo" the MIL but wants to be sneakier about it.  MIL just lets it fly out of her mouth.  So, this gives me hope that my kids (especially the females) will turn out "normal".      

FF

[flourdust]

I agree with Notwendy. Stay off the triangle. Validate or use medium chill with your wife to a) acknowledge you are listening and b) appreciate her feelings without getting sucked into the content.

It also sounds like you want to set a boundary -- you'll only listen to X amount of griping about MIL per week/month/whatever. Go ahead and enforce that boundary. It's reasonable.

[formflier]

  It also sounds like you want to set a boundary -- you'll only listen to X amount of griping about MIL per week/month/whatever. Go ahead and enforce that boundary. It's reasonable.

     If there is no "good" way to work the triangle thing.  The "go to the center part" of the article.  Basically if there is no positive influence I can have.  I don't want this situation to negatively influence me.       

FF

[Daniell85]

What happens when your wife feels you are not "there" for her to listen?

[Cat Familiar]

FF, this is really a tough one. You certainly don't want to defend your wife and then have her turn on you for dissing her mother. Tread very carefully and like you say, less is more.

[formflier]

What happens when your wife feels you are not "there" for her to listen?  

     She gets all kinda horked off, flings some lovely words at me as I walk away.    Usually takes 5-10 minutes for her to calm and then things proceed on like it never happened.  If there are other circumstances sometimes it can take longer for her to calm.    But a standard boundary enforcement against something that I don't need to listen to usually "costs" me about 10 minutes.  I suspect it would be similar if I stopped listening to complaints about MIL.  Only similar thing was, gosh, 6-8 months ago when I stopped having conversations with her about what other people think and why they do things.    I had long since stopped having conversations with her about her mind reading powers over me so it seemed appropriate to be consistent across the board.  She was ticked for a while but after 3-4 attempts gave up trying to talk to me about that.  This is a little different because there is an active persecutor, not stuff conjured up in her head.  So, not sure we are really talking apples to apples.      

FF

[formflier]

   

FF, this is really a tough one. You certainly don't want to defend your wife and then have her turn on you for dissing her mother. Tread very carefully and like you say, less is more.  

     Yeah, that would be lovely.  Any action or nudges would be more along the lines of disengagement, vice agreeing or "going after" the MIL.      

FF

[Daniell85]

Old family dynamics can be very entrenched and triggering. Some family can reach right through self protection and tweak in just the most painful places.

Maybe it is an orange.

[Cat Familiar]

I had to copy waverider's response to another thread:

Regardless of the rights and wrongs, and all the blame slinging, the simple fact is they are a toxic influence. trying to influence your wife one way or another is adding to the toxic interaction.

You are probably in a position whereby when your wife plays the victim due to their behavior, you want to believe, she knows you do so you are an easy and rewarding source to vent to. This adds to your  resentment.

It is very hard to get out of this, not reacting and not being affected is your goal as you are probably inadvertently adding to your wife's conflict. You really need a "whatever" stance.

[Notwendy]

I'm sure you have done some reading on family systems and roles in dysfunctional families. How the individuals interact as a whole is like a well choreographed dance. It is not always conscious, and it is intergenerational. For any one individual to break the pattern takes a lot of personal work- and there is a cost to that. When one family member changes their part of the dance, the system becomes unstable and other members feel uncomfortable. Seeking emotional equilibrium- the other family members work harder- either through acting positively or negatively towards that person in an attempt to get the pattern back. They may go so far as to reject the family member who changed. Even in families that are not dysfunctional, families members interact with each other in habitual ways.

It is common to "revert" back to this routine when in the presence of FOO. I have seen this with other family members and my H with his family. It may not even be conscious. Once I watched a sibling- who knows better than to do this- behave like a kid in an argument with mom. Afterwards, he said "I should have known better, but it's almost like being under a spell- automatic".

As you know, being near FOO has pros and cons. Your kids will spend more time with their grandparents and extended family- and that is a good thing, and you will deal with some family craziness. I have found myself feeling the pull with my FOO, and I have watched my H get sucked into his. He has recognized that he doesn't like this, but he had to come to this conclusion on his own. He can say something negative about his family, but if I say the same thing, it is taken as a criticism and he gets angry. It is better if I don't.

Perhaps the better thing to do is not step in to fix or soothe your wife's feelings- let her speak but I think having a boundary on how much you can do this is good. If she decides her mother is driving her crazy, then this could motivate her to change her steps in the family dance.

I wouldn't get too involved in your MIL's ideas about religion. Disordered people interpret religion in a disordered manner.

[Fian]

When my wife has an issue with someone else, I try and act as her coach.  I don't normally say she is right, I instead talk about what she can do differently to positively influence the situation.  In the above situation, I would probably say something along the lines that your wife saying something positive about military service is good, but in the end her mom has a right to feel differently.  Say your 2 cents, and then end the conversation.

[Stolen]

Oh, I have walked that minefield.  The warning about supporting your W, and having that construed as dissing MIL, is spot on. I did this dance for two decades (real pro here... .  ), fought to support and protect xW from evil MIL, was given credit and thanks for this - until I got "you drove me away from my family".     

Yep - drove them away. We lived two blocks from them.  Every holiday. Daily contact. Go figure.

One thing I learned - I could not be a spouse and therapist.  Maybe validate W's next complaint session, and let her know that her M's behavior is above your pay scale - perhaps W should see a psych who is experienced in these dynamics. Couch it not so much that W needs the headshrinker, but that MIL's "abuse" of her needs to be vetted. 

[formflier]

   One thing I learned - I could not be a spouse and therapist.  Maybe validate W's next complaint session, and let her know that her M's behavior is above your pay scale - perhaps W should see a psych who is experienced in these dynamics. Couch it not so much that W needs the headshrinker, but that MIL's "abuse" of her needs to be vetted.   

     I used to try and play the T role too much and also the "rescuer"/fixer/superman.  I'm an acts of service love language guy, so I'm very open to going to far here.  I have decided in my head (for a good 6-12 months now) that I'm not going to be my wife's T anymore.  That doesn't mean zero tolerance, no complaints at all.  But there is a limit.  There real question is where to draw the line  If I wait until I'm exasperated or frustrated by the situation, that tells me that I have been too much like a T.  Basically that I have listened too much.      

FF  

[MaybeSo]

 You can give her a SET response.  The truth is they both have a right to their own opinions. You can also take a supportive stance that communicates your belief that she is more than capable of taking care of herself with her family members.

[Moselle]

Formflier. So sorry to hear of your FOO adventures. My advice and strategy would be to maintain  your personal integrity at all times, and be a bit of a benign grey rock rather than a target. Siding with anyone (or the appearance of siding) will make you a target.

BPD manipulation of spouses is a skill learned in a BPD home. I'm wondering if MIL will target you as the current attachment figure of your wife. She will likely compete with you for her affections. And any drama will be used to bait you. I suspect the military comments were aimed at you.

A grey, benign rock that does nothing when poked soon becomes a boring target and the drama will shift to someone else.

I also believed I could catalyse a healthy change in my ex's FOO by engaging. Radical acceptance of what it is right now, might be a more healthy option.