We're still together, but I've decided it's only rational to not see her

[ProKonig]

Oh Japan, how kind you've been to me, and so cruel too!

I came to Japan just under 2 years ago. After a year I found a job I love, in a location that's great. So, let me give you my BPD related story. Before I came to Japan I wanted to learn some Japanese, funnily enough, so I went on a language exchange and met a fantastic girl who would later become my partner. She's highly intelligent, beautiful and funny... .but, she has BPD (undiagnosed at this present time). We've been together 20 months and for the past 10 months it's been painful. Just like anyone else here who suffers the ups and downs... .and love her dearly and am fighting as best I can while also trying to be realistic.

Japan is a fascinating country, not just because of the unique culture, but also because of the seemingly amazing ignorance and stigmatisation of mental health issues. There are a multitude of very interesting cultural norms to do with relationships between men and women here, that I won't get into now, but make the BPD issues even tougher to address as a Westerner.

Anyway, negative swings generally follow this pattern:

- Switch in mood occurs (sometimes for no detectable reason), resulting in aggression towards me over an assortment of issues that have been discussed hundreds of times, the issue selected seems to be irrelevant and based on insecurities linked with BPD

- Try to resolve problem with understanding, love and rational conversation

- This (as I have have read in other peoples' experiences) fails and results in the argument becoming more extreme and delusional  

- This is followed by me saying something like this, "Why are you with me if you're so unhappy? Seek professional help, please. You need to leave me if I can't make you happy... .but, just so you know, I'm here for you and will work together with you to resolve this."

- Abuse continues until I'm forced to withdraw from the conversation, either by refusing to engage in discussion on some issues, or by physically leaving.

- BPD's full emotional breakdown occurs, tears etc

- Occasional serious threats of self harm, especially if I have had to leave the house due to the extreme nature of the behaviour

- Almost break up and dramatic situation results in semi-apology and reversion to 'euphoric love'

- Cycle repeats 5 times over a weekend

These past 3 weeks have been especially emotionally devastating. The final argument of the weekend (number 5 or 6) resulted in my failure to defuse and a lapse in my ability to take the abuse. I remarked, "Thanks for all your hard work in preventing these breakdowns in our relationship... .and thanks for stick with counselling, nice to know you care about yourself and us... .by the way, that was sarcasm." This resulted in destruction of a room and but for physical restrain by me, violence to me or herself with scissors. Unsurprisingly I said, "This has to stop. We cannot be around one another. Your behaviour has now reached the point where I'm concerned for your safety and mind." I had to contact her friend in the middle of the night (who is well informed of these issues) and my partner was devastated, SHOCKED this had to happen. I needed to leave and needed someone to protect her safety.

So... .we're still together, but I've decided it's only rational to not see her. We are talking. She immediately booked an appointment with a counsellor the next day and took the appointment 2 days later. Her mood was good... .although very upset, she realised her behaviour needed professional attention. She has seen counsellors twice in the past and not stuck with it. My failure to set unmoving boundaries required for the stability of our relationship and her happiness. Anyway... .she's booked her next appointment but her mood has become erratic and abusive over messaging applications too (I thought it best to show I was not going anywhere and not cutting her off... .to an extent due to her threats of self-harm). She knows her behaviour is wrong and requires help, but cannot stop herself... .and she even knows, the more she behaves in this way, the less likely we are to get back to functioning like a proper couple.

She's booked an second appointment... .but I question the quality of mental health practice in Japan and her willingness to state the truth of her actions and thinking to the counsellor. She claims, in the first appointment with her new counsellor she was informed, 'it's not BPD'. Seems like an unlikely statement from a 1 hour introductory counselling session.

You may have noticed my explanation sounds very formal and unemotional at times... .but I'm sure as you all know, there's a lot of pain behind my story. Your advice would be much appreciated and further info can be provided if it helps.

Kind thanks... .

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[livednlearned]

Hi ProKonig,

It seems Japan is also a culture with a very different relationship to shame than in Western culture. I would guess that you have that extra layer to factor in, and it may take great empathy and respect for cultural norms to try and puzzle things together.

We often say about BPD that they are not reacting to the situation at hand, more often, it's something that happened in the past, and they have a kind of ready-reference list of beliefs about the world usually learned in childhood.

The same if often true of us, though not having BPD, our issues are different.

Can you pinpoint anything that triggers her, and when it starts to escalate, how do you respond?

[ProKonig]

Hey livednlearned,

Yes, the cultural element certainly does play a big role and would do so in any relationship with a Japanese person. So some things that have been noted by professionals and more anecdotally by myself and others are:

- negative body image on the issues of skin colour, eyes and hair (advertising obviously plays a role in this and cultural norms)

- obsession with purity

- doing everything possible to erase previous relationships from your past

- public face vs private 'anything goes' attitude

- husband hunting culture

- shame placed upon women who haven't found a husband by a certain age

- ridiculous age gaps between young girls and older men are considered fine

Basically... .it's like the West 40-50 years ago (in terms of many attitudes). These are just a few that have directly affected me and are amplified by BPD. Let me give you some back story on this:

So, being an open and honest 'modern' Western guy, I went into the relationship in a positive and trusting mood. If she asked me a question on my past, I answered honestly and openly (within reason). I've had a few relationships, so good, some not so good... .obviously they never worked out but never ended on horrendous terms. In hindsight I wish I never asked a single question and said 'it doesn't matter, I'm not talking about it' because various questions she asked are used to beat me over the head with a stick. The issue is, I can't find the triggers... .the switch is seemingly at random and almost self-generated. Tiny negative thought triggers a spiral that cannot be exited until it's reached extremes.

She had a relationship with a much much much older guy at 17ish and my belief is she has learned some of these EXTREME beliefs (more extreme than a regular Japanese person) from him. Combined with BPD they are a recipe for conflict.

[Turkish]

Intercultural relationships can be tough. I had one, with kids even, and it was a culture less removed than East meets West. I've read about the public face vs. private face with regard to Japanese culture. You're, however, living it. A couple of centuries of openess, and over half a century of Westernization still won't overcome what I call "cultural inertia."

Shame is a huge deal in that culture, is it not? People with BPD suffer from a core sense of shame (I.e., "I'm a bad person.". Unwittingly, we as partners can trigger that shame, which can trigger their unhealthy coping mechanisms, anger, or other emotional dysregulation.

You can't fix whatever "fleas" she picked from that older guy, but it's certainly possible to work on reducing triggers. Some triggers may not be avoided, but we have tools here which may help you reduce conflict. Here are some examples. Let us know if they make sense:

The Do's and Don'ts for a BP relationship

Communication using validation. What it is; how to do it

Turkish

[ProKonig]

Thank you!

Yea, I have read these before. She's very sharp at knowing if I'm taking a different approach with her, despite it's subtlety. She dislikes reasonable responses when her mood is disregulated (that's not a word, but it's more appropriate than 'unregulated', her intention is to drag me into it on the premise that 'love is meant to be childish and stupid' (her words). It creates some severe problems. Thus failure of these mechanises results in me having to take these course of actions:

- Use management techniques as mentioned above

- BPD determines she is being 'managed' if I do not engage

- I tell her I can't argue with her over these things, but I understand it's hard etc etc

- I have to leave

- BPD breaks down/threats self-harm

On the issue of shame in the culture, you're completely right. Her behaviour in terms of self image and morality is entirely shaped by her own behaviours when she was young. Although my history is fairly normal and functional for a Western relationship, she projects her shame onto me and considers my history immoral and 'disgusting' (when she's in the midst of disregulation). My relationship history consists of, being in a long term relationship, using medicinal contraception and never cheating. The relationship failed just because we drifted apart over time, nothing dramatic from my cultural perspective. On the other hand, her history (by my standards) is much more dysfunctional and unhealthy. Obviously she does not observe it in that way due to the combination of culture and BPD.

I was interested in people's opinions on the period of separation to encourage therapy. It is helping me detach from the situation and assess things a little better, but I wonder if anyone has tried this and had success? Did your partners go into therapy and show positive signs over the long-term (if they stuck with it)?

[globalnomad]

ProKonig - Welcome to the forum, and sorry to hear of your troubles. I can relate very much. I went to graduate school in Japan and lived in Tokyo for most of my 20s. My first relationship was there, and I remember how tough it was dealing with some of the cultural differences.

I think you are right about the stigmatization of mental health issues in Japan, although it is interesting to note that some Japanese modes of talk therapy are now becoming more widely studied in the west (not sure if you've heard of Morita therapy -- but apparently it is sometimes used to treat BPD).

A lot of what you describe sounds like pretty standard BPD traits that sadly all of us deal with. Are language issues making it worse? I was pretty fluent in Japanese when I lived in Japan but I remember finding it difficult to communicate in a more nuanced way, and that often created misunderstandings with the girls I dated over my time there. With my current fiance I find I frequently have to choose my words very carefully, even though we still have the same native language. Throwing language and intercultural issues into the mix only makes it harder, I imagine.

[livednlearned]

I was interested in people's opinions on the period of separation to encourage therapy. It is helping me detach from the situation and assess things a little better, but I wonder if anyone has tried this and had success? Did your partners go into therapy and show positive signs over the long-term (if they stuck with it)?

I put my own self worth at risk when I expected someone else's compliance with therapy to save the relationship. It's also a very loaded proposition for someone seeking therapy (especially someone BPD) who thinks they better go all in or else.

Because a BPD sufferer struggles with shame and vulnerability to such an extreme extent, therapy can be very triggering. Walking away from therapy, even after a diagnosis and some treatment, is not uncommon.

Alternately, the more we focus on what we can control (empathy for our loved ones, validation, asserting boundaries), the better. My son was at risk for BPD traits and I took the advice of a BPD expert to stop focusing on my son and start focusing on me -- I do not struggle with emotional dysregulation therefore I can use the problem-solving part of my brain when the relationship is on tilt. This means I carry more responsibility, and taking that to heart made a big difference.

[ProKonig]

Thanks globalnomad.

Luckily she has fantastic English ability. My Japanese which I've been studying since before I got here is moderate, but hardly enough to have nuanced discussion. Her English level is high enough to even have more complex discussions about medical issues (among more social things!) I'm lucky in that regard.

livednlearned:

Yea, I totally agree with you; it's unfair to force therapy on someone. I did not demand it of her, I simply said, "As it is, this relationship is dangerous and emotionally destructive for both of us, you have to seek the help you need (for you). I am here for you if you need me, but please, look after yourself." We all have choices, I'm happy with my choice for now. Being around her excessively and showing MORE understanding for her concerns and fears encourages her more, oddly. I have to withdraw and let her work things out herself a little. She knows it's a problem and she knows she can't control herself at times. She is seeking therapy for herself, even if her actions with me and my encouragement pushed her towards it. The risk I run is that she drops out of therapy and turns her back on me. I can live with that decision. I cannot sacrifice myself as badly as I have been doing: being her punchbag. Boundaries must be drawn for her good and my own. 

I admire your self belief and ability to focus on 'what you can control', maybe I'm just not that good yet.   

Update:

So... .today she was in a fantastic mood and said, 'I'd love to go for 'yakiniku' (research that if you can be bothered!). But if you don't want to, I understand.' I thought about it and finally agreed. We went to a department store, bought some cool 'year of the monkey' door decorations for the 1st Jan and then went for some food. It was going great, better than for months. She was all love, intelligence and smiles. She was going to get the train home and I suggested we go for some bowling and amusements, in typical young couple style! Everything was great until the final bowling game when she realised the night was ending. As you can imagine, I was dreading the worst. We finished the bowling in silence and on the walk to the station (the necessary mode of transport here!) I said, 'It's okay, tell me what you're feeling, I'm here for you.' Silence. We waited for the train, she was cold, stood up, said good bye and walked away.

Interesting. There was no extreme anger, just sadness she felt and an inability to get out of that spiral. I walked home and left her a message, saying, 'Thanks for a great night, I'm sorry leaving was hard. Love you, good night.' Turns out she called me multiple times after that, but I missed the calls. I'm glad I did... .I'm gonna see what her mood is like tomorrow. Hopefully it'll give her time to reflect on her BPD affecting the final 30 minutes of the night. Who knows.

[globalnomad]

Hey ProKonig. Glad to hear that at least language is not a major issue.

It sounds like you have a healthy attitude to this. Giving her a little space to work on her issues (we can't "rescue" our partners) while assuring her you are still there for her. This is a very tricky balance to get right in my experience as abandonment fears are so easily triggered in BPD sufferers.

I would echo the importance of primarily working on yourself and not expecting too much from her therapy. This has been a slow and difficult shift for me. I've accepted its inevitable my partner will become "disregulated" from time to time; my focus is now on not making that worse through the way I respond to it. A large part of this is setting stronger boundaries and knowing when to walk away. (This can provoke a lot of rage, but is often much healthier than staying and making an already volatile situation worse.) I still have a long way to go in this journey myself. I've got some great advice from people on this board. Hopefully you will too.

I'm also glad to hear you at least had an enjoyable date until the last few minutes!

Ganbatte

[ProKonig]

いつもがんばるよ！haha!

Yea, totally. I don't expect the world of her, she's still young and it's hard for her. From the stories she's told of her relationship with her mother (which is not bad by any means) and past relationships it is clear this has always been an issue for her, but unsurprisingly in Japan, nobody has identified it a a mental health issue. I'm sure there are some very fine practitioners here, it's the lack of awareness from the general population that is a slight concern.

I'm going nowhere, I've done everything I can to assure her of that. It's why I've made myself available when she's in a positive mood, to reinforce in her mind what my boundaries are. It's very hard not to give in and see her when she's negative, especially when it manifests itself in the form of crippling sadness or potential self-harm. Rage is easier to walk away from. But I'm working on putting up strong boundaries and safety-nets (with the help of her friend and parents if required... .although alas, they live a substantial distance away). I appreciate she isn't always going to be able to manage her condition, I'm not expecting miracles. You know... .I think we all play that percentage game: how much we can take before it crushes us. We all have to try our best to prevent ourselves sacrificing ourselves too much. What good are we to our partners and the world as a whole if we let ourselves become a bloody mush of bones and organs under a giant boulder! Sorry for the extreme imagery... .Japan is such a violent country, haha.

There is solid general advice all over this board, but obviously although we share the issue of the condition we have to contend with, each person is an individual. This is a forced experiment in how this method will work to address our specific issues. If anything I hope I can learn from it... .hell maybe others will get something out of it too! I will keep you updated

[globalnomad]

Haha, of course you always do

You are right that there is lots of solid advice on these boards but the devil is in the details and it is not always easy to implement this stuff, or customize it for our own circumstances.

Have you shared any of this with your own friends or family? It is easy to become isolated. I know I find this challenging. The few friends I have confided in have either a) told me I'm crazy to stay in the relationship and should leave immediately (not so simple - we have a baby); 2) didn't understand at all, because my BPD partner is extremely charming when not disregulated and only shows that side of herself in front of me. So I end up not feeling very supported. I suspect many of us struggle with this sense of isolation.

Keep us posted!

[livednlearned]

Not sure BPD is all that well understand in the US, either. It's a disorder that gets worse as intimacy increases, so it's typically families and romantic partners who experience the traits. In work environments, someone with BPD may simply register as a "difficult person."

This is one of the things that can actually make it feel so isolating, to build on what globalnomad was saying about isolation in general. Your reality with your partner is so different than how others perceive your partner. It can feel like parallel universes, and that can make us feel like we're the ones with a problem.

Here are some common negative assumptions in BPD thinking. I found this helped me stay grounded, knowing that my loved one has a different belief system. It helped to explain some of the mood shifts and reactions to what seemed, on the surface, to be ordinary events. It's possible, for example, that your GF was feeling good, and as strange as it sounds, joy can be a very vulnerable feeling. She may have been coping with that vulnerability in the only way that has helped her in past interactions, which is to withdraw and protect herself.

20 Common Negative Assumptions in BPD thinking:

 1. I will always be alone

 2. There is no one who really cares about me, who will be available to help me, and whom I can fall back on.

 3. If others really get to know me, they will find me rejectable and will not be able to love me; and they will leave me.

 4. I can't manage by myself, I need someone I can fall back on.

 5. I have to adapt my needs to other people's wishes, otherwise they will leave me or attack me.

 6. I have no control of myself.

 7. I can't discipline myself.

 8. I don't really know what I want.

 9. I need to have complete control of my feelings otherwise things go completely wrong.

10. I am an evil person and I need to be punished for it.

11. If someone fails to keep a promise, that person can no longer be trusted.

12. I will never get what I want.

13. If I trust someone, I run a great risk of getting hurt or disappointed.

14. My feelings and opinions are unfounded.

15. If you comply with someone's request, you run the risk of losing yourself.

16. If you refuse someone's request, you run the risk of losing that person.

17. Other people are evil and abuse you.

18. I'm powerless and vulnerable and I can't protect myself.

19. If other people really get to know me they will find me rejectable.

20. Other people are not willing or helpful.

Source: Behaviour Research & Therapy article [only abstract available]

Depression can be common among romantic partners dealing with a BPD loved one, and with depression comes its own twisted thinking. That's why it's so important to do what you're doing -- establish boundaries that help you keep your cup full.

The part I found difficult was not establishing boundaries, it was approaching things with empathy and validation while still maintaining boundaries. This can feel like a moving target, since obviously we have our own moments of frustration, fatigue, impatience, sadness, etc.

[ProKonig]

globalnomad/livednlearned:

Yea, I have a few friends with whom I have confided. They understand the nuance of the problem and while they cannot understand entirely, usually are a good set of friends to bounce advice off of. I have one friend who is a feminist Cambridge Uni graduate who is like a textbook on female issues which nicely overlap into some of the BPD issues. She gives different angles on the issues and certainly resets me to full-empathy mode when we talk.

I haven't told my parents because they are of the generation where they'd just go, 'get out if she makes you unhappy!' and if things work out I don't want them to have that negative impression of her. They think she's amazing at the moment and just the same as in a normal relationship, you forget the negatives, parents remember them even if you can forgive.

With regards to her behaviour two of her closest friends are really good and I've been 'working' with one them recently to remove me from the 'suicide threat' loop. It's very hard for them to see too, but she has been fairly honest with them I think, and they don't have a hard time trusting my analysis. My partner is extremely charming too... .I've seen it described as 'high functioning BPD' but I've also read things questioning if there is such a thing. She's student and works part-time at a Juku (cram school)... .functions completely fine in everyday life. Life of the party, great sense of humour, intelligence (amazing results academically) and extra responsibilities have been piled on her at work. She loves work and study and gets on fine. The contrast between her public face and private face is dramatic. This is actually a cultural thing too, I've met a lot of foreigners who have complained 'she was all sweetness until right after the wedding'. Japanese women control the home and this public vs private face generally provides a stark contrast.

One of her triggers is 'where's my engagement!' especially considering I had an engagement in my past too (God, I wish she never found that out. Damn me for being honest)... .I guess most girls can put of the fake sweetness until they get their proposal. She can't do it, her BPD wouldn't let her go a month without creating conflict. I'd happily marry her if significant progress could be made, she's got so many great qualities. But, I try not to be foolish and I won't condemn myself to unhappiness for the long-term.

I think the empathy and validation are the biggest issues for me. Not because I can't do it... .but because it never seems to work! She'll be screaming abuse at me and making emotionally devastating accusations with no grounding in reality and I'll say, "I know you feel like this at times, it's okay, I can listen. I'm not going anywhere." And she just gets worse. I think the best way of validating her and show empathy actually to walk away and set those boundaries. Show your complete availability when the mood is positive, and discuss fears and concerns when the tone is honest and open. If it's part of a negative spiral, no degree of rational discussion OR empathy and validation have worked for me, in verb form anyway. As my feminist buddy says, "She just wants to test you, she needs to be completely sure you'll never leave." I guess we're all going through the most elaborate test ever devised. Maybe we're engaged in relationships with mad geniuses and they are part of a group of researchers testing our abilities to cope with extreme emotional stress.

Bet you both haven't seen that theory on this forum before!

Cheers guys

[livednlearned]

Validation is best before a full-blown dysregulation.

Validation is also hard. So is empathy. Walking away from her is not the same as validating her, although walking away can be super important. I'm thinking that your sentence to validate her could have some hidden bombs. People with BPD are typically very perceptive, so our attempts t validation have to do double duty. "I know you feel like this at times." She's standing right there in front of you experiencing this feeling that is totally flooding her -- inside, her brain has hit the ceiling and she is on tilt, and she may think you're dismissing how she feels right this moment.

I still find validation hard. When I'm in the danger zone, I find validating questions to be much easier to summon.

What would you like me to do?

Is there anything I can do to help you?

Would it help if I (name something you can do)?

I also stop what I'm doing, turn my body, have eye contact, focus on the conversation, give 100% attention. Again, this is before a full-blown dysregulation.

Also, I'm not sure that your GF is testing you so much as she is wildly swinging from feeling to feeling, trying to connect things with a reality that is different than yours. Impulsivity is at the core of BPD and she is reacting and reacting and reacting. Validation is the skill we use before her emotional brain has started to hit the ceiling. Sometimes, after things have started to rocket, it's best to take a deep breath and politely and non-aggressively disengage. Giving them space to self soothe and not try to do it for them is important for both partners.

[ProKonig]

Haha, don't worry, she's a has a degree in English Linguistics and I think she is also aware the phrase "I know you feel like this at times." contains the word this being in the present and the verb in the infinitive helps  

Point taken though... .I don't remember the exact wording but wording is indeed important at times. It's easy to make mistakes an replay things in your mind after. She didn't take offence at my words or sincerity, she just hates being 'managed' in anyway. She almost needs the insanity to revert back to 'normal'. You mentioned the ceiling... .I think she wants or needs to hit her head on it. I say that, having seen her become so frustrated with her own behaviour she's started smashing her head against the wall.

Yea, I like the 'What would you like me to do?" question. The issue is, she doesn't know and it ends up frustrating her more... .until she hits this ceiling you mentioned. Or, her suggestions to the question are irrational and open up a whole new avenue of conflict. For example:

"What would you like me to do?":

- "Marry me!"

- "Call all your exes and tell them they are worthless whores whom you wish would die." (literally)

Oh dear... .no... .because... .um... .wait... .that didn't work out

"Would it help if I... ." always leaves me stumped... ."Would it help if I gave you some space?" The answer is always 'no'. The issue is, it clearly does need to happen most of the time.

"Is there anything I can do to help?" Also yields irrational suggestions. Maybe they work better in your situation, but they are rarely 'hit', most of the time 'miss' for me.

I end up just having to give a statement stating I'm not going anywhere and I love her. Then she hits the ceiling and the spiral begins and I have to leave. I must stress, 80% of the time I don't leave. It's only in the most extreme cases. Sometimes one of us breaks down in tears, anger, sadness or depression and it's patched up right there 5 minutes later. But the frequency is emotionally devastating. Everytime you think it's resolved after one of these things it never is. It's the same things, rehashed hundreds of times. To quote Einstein... .blah blah blah same thing over and over, diff results = insanity

Quick update:

She's great at the moment btw. She realised why I avoided her last night and didn't give her an opportunity to continue her negative mood with me when she got home via phone. I was worried sick about her... .but just left it. In the morning she was in a great mood again.

Testing in progress 

[ProKonig]

Update for anyone who is interested.

She is really battling. Continuing counselling, it's important for her to develop a good relationship. In Japan Christmas isn't heavily celebrated and she's doing a lot of overtime. She loves her work though and being around people more helps her. It's when we are locked away together she struggles.

We have had a good Christmas, a couple of nice nights together and I can see her stopping herself drifting from positivity. I think it's important to maintain the boundary for now, until she develops routine to develop coping mechanisms. It's also a welcome break for me. It's quality over quantity at the moment.