Is this a BPD trait or is this something else?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

There should be a signed agreement, and he should be able to get a copy.

Definitely enjoy your night of peace and quiet! But sometime soon I think you should start planning for how you're going to set and enforce boundaries along the way to the divorce. (Along with thinking about whether this is still the relationship you want in general, as people have mentioned in other threads.)

I'm wondering what happens if he talks to the lawyer but never shows you a signed retainer, or retains the lawyer but drags his feet on filing, or files but then says they gave him a trial date in 2017 (could be a lie, could be the truth), or gets into years of drama with his ex-wife over a settlement... .you get the idea. Do you think that might happen?

I think it would get really ugly to have to threaten NC in order to get him to take each next step of the process. That would be "brinksmanship," as you described. Not the way to work toward a lower-conflict relationship, and would probably continue eroding at the relationship until you're left with nothing.

Thank you this again, I was referring to brinkmanship in terms of his behavior of trying to make me call the bar for him. I would never engage in that kind of behavior myself, its not in my nature. I didn't give in so he capitulated. So I think the next thing I will tell him I expect from him is a copy of the signed agreement between him and his divorce lawyer. In terms of when he files, I will encourage him to file between work projects. He is looking for encouragement from me. I can encourage him if he is moving in the right direction. Calling the bar tomorrow morning is moving in the right direction. We will go from there.

[unicorn2014]

There should be a signed agreement, and he should be able to get a copy.

Definitely enjoy your night of peace and quiet! But sometime soon I think you should start planning for how you're going to set and enforce boundaries along the way to the divorce. (Along with thinking about whether this is still the relationship you want in general, as people have mentioned in other threads.)

I'm wondering what happens if he talks to the lawyer but never shows you a signed retainer, or retains the lawyer but drags his feet on filing, or files but then says they gave him a trial date in 2017 (could be a lie, could be the truth), or gets into years of drama with his ex-wife over a settlement... .you get the idea. Do you think that might happen?

I think it would get really ugly to have to threaten NC in order to get him to take each next step of the process. That would be "brinksmanship," as you described. Not the way to work toward a lower-conflict relationship, and would probably continue eroding at the relationship until you're left with nothing.

Thank you this again, I was referring to brinkmanship in terms of his behavior of trying to make me call the bar for him. I would never engage in that kind of behavior myself, its not in my nature. I didn't give in so he capitulated. So I think the next thing I will tell him I expect from him is a copy of the signed agreement between him and his divorce lawyer. In terms of when he files, I will encourage him to file between work projects. He is looking for encouragement from me. I can encourage him if he is moving in the right direction. Calling the bar tomorrow morning is moving in the right direction. We will go from there.

[unicorn2014]

###

To be clear when I said you made your choice I was referring only to your decision to not talk to me

(Which functionally means the relationship has now been taken hostage & you have broken up with me)

You can fix this by doing what I asked you to do

###

I love you very much Sugar Boo

This is a position he likes to take, when I uphold my boundary, he accuses me of breaking up with him. I'm not ready to leave him yet. I've told him if I get to that point I will make it clear to him that I am leaving him. I have said nothing to him about leaving him.

Do not believe him when he says you are breaking up with him.

That is your choice. You know if you made it or not. He cannot tell you that. No reason to fear those words from him.

Also no need to prove to him that you haven't left him yet. No need to argue. Don't engage it at this lev (if at all!)

Thank you grey kitty for those words. I think that's the first time I've heard something like that.

In the future if he accuses me of leaving him or the relationship I will simply say for my own sanity's sake "I am not breaking up with you", unless I make the choice to leave, which means I will be posting on the leaving board, not the undecided board. 

[patientandclear]

He said he would capitulate and call the bar tomorrow and ask for a referral to a divorce lawyer so we will find out in the morning if he has something for me.

I hope he does.

Oh my goodness.  Am I imagining things, or didn't he say a couple weeks ago when you first informed him of the end-of-year boundary/limit you were setting, that he HAD contacted a lawyer and he HAD told her that you would probably be calling her?  Wasn't that when the humiliation discussion happened?

I don't think calling the bar for a referral for a family law lawyer on Dec 30 is what your original boundary entailed, was it?  He is pushing-pushing-pushing this to see if you mean it.  Thisagain's point above is right -- it's important to be very clear with yourself and with him about what your boundary means.  Tomorrow is going to come and go and AT MOST he is going to have called to schedule an appointment with a lawyer he has not yet met.  If you continue in the current relationship on those terms past Thursday (Dec 31) I'd say he has effectively called your bluff.  And, at this point, it is too late for him to accomplish anything else.  (And the responsibility for that being the case is entirely on him.  You gave him plenty of lead time.)

Unicorn, if you want to hold onto your position, I don't see any effective alternative but to tell him you'll re-engage him in a committed relationship (not an engagement) when and if he has actually filed for divorce and you've seen that divorce petition with a "FILED" stamp on it.  He is testing to see if you meant what you said.  He did NOT do what you said you needed, if I understand that original boundary conversation correctly.  Have you backed away from that since?  If you have maintained that position, about concrete steps toward divorce -- he has not done that thing.  Plus it sounds as though he continues to tell untruths (the story about the lawyer he said he told about the likelihood you would call).

I think you have much to gain and little to lose by being ultra clear about what the line is and what your minimum requirement is to go forward in a committed, more-than-friends, relationship.  I'd suggest a divorce petition that says "FILED" date-stamped on the front page.

[unicorn2014]

Patient and clear, he has met with an attorney twice last week, and was going to meet with her a third time this week when I found out she was a bankruptcy attorney. I pointed this out to him and he canceled the appointment and told me to pick a family law attorney for him. I told him I would not do that and that he needed to call the bar himself and ask for a referral.



He wants me to sign off on the lawyer because he does not want a lawyer I disapprove of. The lawyer he met with last week was actually his second attempt at getting a lawyer. The first lawyer he picked was also not a family law attorney.

I am giving him the benefit of the doubt here.

He is providing me with names of lawyers and I am looking them up.

I feel comfortable about investigating the lawyers without contacting them myself. I do believe his divorce is high stakes so I can understand why he might be anxious about it. I did talk to my brother about this last night and I think he has a good take on the situation.

I already pointed out to him that he cannot be committed to me while he is married to someone else.

I am not completely without empathy towards him. I didn't have empathy for him when he wasn't eating, but I do have empathy for him about contacting a lawyer. I can only imagine what he is going through. He is my partner but he is also my friend and as his friend I do have empathy for him.

I do want to validate the valid.

I need to stay focused on the positive.

[Sunfl0wer]

Unicorn, if you want to hold onto your position, I don't see any effective alternative but to tell him you'll re-engage him in a committed relationship (not an engagement) when and if he has actually filed for divorce and you've seen that divorce petition with a "FILED" stamp on it.  He is testing to see if you meant what you said.  He did NOT do what you said you needed, if I understand that original boundary conversation correctly.  Have you backed away from that since?

I think this is a very good point.  You set a boundary, yet it appears that you have got involved in taking responsibility for his part of 'respecting' that boundary.

You essentially are making sure he doesn't break it.  And now you are moving the boundary... .to further allow his 'success.' Essentially putting his 'success' above your values.

This is not a good precedent or foundation for a long lasting healthy relationship.  It communicates to me that when you set a boundary, I can pretend I don't understand it, I can get unicorn involved in being responsible for it until she actually is so invested in me not breaking it that she moves it.

I think that is why boundaries are made up by starting with values.  The value was that you did not want to be involved with a married man who was not actively seeking divorce?  Well... .you helping him part of the way in 'seeking' divorce, is still not him taking responsibility for divorce. I see this as a problem. His divorce is his responsibility, not yours.  To get yourself involved with that essential basic issue... .is really blurring things and setting a poor precedent... .and just not a way to enter a relationship with an available/willing man.

Why not allow him to keep the bankruptcy lawyer and communicate to him the consequence of your boundary?  (Vs 'helping' him)

[Sunfl0wer]

I was thinking that something about this bothered me but I couldn't exactly put my finger on it.

I think it is a lot like a drama triangle... .  Except you are playing the roles of both persecutor and rescuer.  You persecuted him by threatening the end of the relationship with your boundary setting, now you are rescuing him from the consequences by enabling him.

I am not saying that you actually have persecuted him in any way... .yet that was his perception.  By rescuing him, you in a way, validated that perception.  Helping him do something he is capable of is a way of putting him in a victim role.  He is capable of getting a divorce without your help at all.

[GaGrl]

At this rate of speed and with the complexity around each decision and action he takes, this divorce is going to take a very, very, very long time.

Have you read the divorce postings on the Legal board?

[flourdust]

Patient and clear, he has met with an attorney twice last week, and was going to meet with her a third time this week when I found out she was a bankruptcy attorney. I pointed this out to him and he canceled the appointment and told me to pick a family law attorney for him. I told him I would not do that and that he needed to call the bar himself and ask for a referral.

None of his stories make any sense at all.

If he's supposed to be hiring an attorney for a divorce, why would he go see a bankruptcy specialist not once, but twice, with a third appointment scheduled? What do you think is happening in these meetings? I'd assume they are talking about filing for bankruptcy. If you go to a bankruptcy attorney and say you want to file for divorce, she'll say that's not her line of business and refer you to someone else. She won't schedule more meetings to talk about how she can't help you with your divorce!

It's not hard to find a divorce attorney. They advertise. They're on the Internet. Your boyfriend knows how to use the Internet. I just typed "divorce attorney mycity" into Google and got back pages and pages of hits. Lists of attorneys with their addresses, business hours, phone numbers, websites, even reviews! Elapsed time of the search: 0.45 seconds.

Your boyfriend is willing to spend days, weeks, months JADEing about why he can't/hasn't found a divorce attorney, but he's not willing to spend 0.45 seconds actually doing it. Why do you think that is?

The only reason that makes any sense to me is a very simple one. He doesn't want to. He could clearly do it if he wanted to. But he doesn't.

You can go down three paths here.

1) You can argue that he does want to and buy into or JADE even more stories to explain why he hasn't spent the 0.45 seconds finding an attorney. This is avoiding reality. This is the wrong path to take.

2) You can wonder WHY he doesn't want to get a divorce. You can confront him or speculate -- all sorts of scenarios are possible. Considering he is someone who has built his entire relationship with you on lies, it's not much of a leap to imagine what else he might still be lying to you about. But this is also the wrong path to take, because it's still about dysfunctional, deceptive engagement with him.

3) You can use radical acceptance. He could have found a divorce attorney, but he hasn't because he doesn't want to. Accept that. Let your feelings about it play through you, without reacting to them. Then ask yourself what that means for you and your relationship. You have to decide what's right for you, once you accept who he really is. That's the right path.

[unicorn2014]

Sunfl0wer he chose to cancel the appointment with the bankruptcy  lawyer, I had no say .

[unicorn2014]

I have not read his messages yet. He wants me to help choose a lawyer. We will see if he sent me three lawyers. I will give some thought to whether or not I should be involved in his divorce.

[guy4caligirl]

I have not read his messages yet. He wants me to help choose a lawyer. We will see if he sent me three lawyers. I will give some thought to whether or not I should be involved in his divorce.

Unicorn

Just be cautious with this whole thing like you guys advised me , do you think he is triangeling if I may ask ?

[Grey Kitty]

I personally think that your involvement in his divorce is both inappropriate and toxic.

Inappropriate because your formal role "the other woman" as he is technically married to somebody else shouldn't be pushing or involved in his divorce.

Toxic because you and your SO have been in a control battle over his divorce for years now, and every step of it involves you nagging, him delaying and deceiving, and both of you becoming more hurt.

Boundaries are about knowing what is yours and what is his.

His divorce (making changes to HIS marital status) is his business. Not yours.

His current status (married to someone else) is your business.

What you do in your relationship with him is your choice. How long you continue while he is married and what you do in these circumstances.

[unicorn2014]

I have not read his messages yet. He wants me to help choose a lawyer. We will see if he sent me three lawyers. I will give some thought to whether or not I should be involved in his divorce.

Unicorn

Just be cautious with this whole thing like you guys advised me , do you think he is triangeling if I may ask ?

He probably is, but since I already agreed to it, I couldn't back out. I chose the lawyer and told him to call the lawyer in the morning and call me after.

[unicorn2014]

I personally think that your involvement in his divorce is both inappropriate and toxic.

Inappropriate because your formal role "the other woman" as he is technically married to somebody else shouldn't be pushing or involved in his divorce.

Toxic because you and your SO have been in a control battle over his divorce for years now, and every step of it involves you nagging, him delaying and deceiving, and both of you becoming more hurt.

Boundaries are about knowing what is yours and what is his.

His divorce (making changes to HIS marital status) is his business. Not yours.

His current status (married to someone else) is your business.

What you do in your relationship with him is your choice. How long you continue while he is married and what you do in these circumstances.

Thank you Grey Kitty, I appreciate the clarity. I realize I've sent him mixed messages, allowed  him to have a relationship  with me from July 2012 when I found out he was married and he told me he was filing for divorce until September 2015 when I found out his divorce hadn't been filed. The question is what to do now, moving into 2016.

Is there a way I can state this to him, Inappropriate because your formal role "the other woman" as he is technically married to somebody else shouldn't be pushing or involved in his divorce.

I will be the first to admit I am very confused.

[patientandclear]

I personally think that your involvement in his divorce is both inappropriate and toxic.

Inappropriate because your formal role "the other woman" as he is technically married to somebody else shouldn't be pushing or involved in his divorce.

Toxic because you and your SO have been in a control battle over his divorce for years now, and every step of it involves you nagging, him delaying and deceiving, and both of you becoming more hurt.

Boundaries are about knowing what is yours and what is his.

His divorce (making changes to HIS marital status) is his business. Not yours.

His current status (married to someone else) is your business.

What you do in your relationship with him is your choice. How long you continue while he is married and what you do in these circumstances.

Thank you Grey Kitty, I appreciate the clarity. I realize I've sent him mixed messages, allowed  him to have a relationship  with me from July 2012 when I found out he was married and he told me he was filing for divorce until September 2015 when I found out his divorce hadn't been filed. The question is what to do now, moving into 2016.

Is there a way I can state this to him, Inappropriate because your formal role "the other woman" as he is technically married to somebody else shouldn't be pushing or involved in his divorce.

I will be the first to admit I am very confused.

I, too, suspect that your partner would be hard pressed at this point to say what your bottom line -- what he needs to do for you to feel satisfied -- is.  Clarity about expectations and needs helps a lot when the other person is trying hard to dislodge your boundaries, argue that they did in fact meet them when they didn't, etc.

To address Grey Kitty's concern about involvement in the divorce, how about something like this:

"Unicorn'spartner: hi.  I've reflected a bit and reached a couple conclusions about the need for me to do things differently.

First, I want to stop picking at you over little things that aren't even necessarily wrong, when what's bothering me is the more longstanding issue that you are not available to marry me when I had thought you were, and my understanding of what is happening on that front (divorce) keeps proving inaccurate.  That (divorce) issue is big for me, but because I have no control over that, I have been focusing on current dynamics between us when they probably are not really the problem.

Second [if true], I still want the plans we made and the connection we've shared.

Third, because your status as still married matters a lot to me, I've allowed myself to become involved in that process when really, it is your business and these are your decisions.  I care which choices you make, but it is not my job to make them.  It isn't my role to help you get divorced, pick the lawyer, or clear the way, and if I keep doing that, we are both going to wind up resentful, I suspect.

So.  Let me just say that I still feel as I said a month or so ago -- that I will be glad to resume a committed relationship with you when and if you've filed for divorce.  I would love for that to happen but I can't be organizing that.

I hope you can understand where I'm coming from."

***

I'm no expert at the communications tools on this board, so others may be able to present the same information better, in SET or DEARMAN format.

And then, until he files for divorce, you need a very clear understanding of what you are willing to do by way of communication if you are suspending your committed relationship.  It should look pretty different from the committed relationship, otherwise the boundary has little meaning.

[unicorn2014]

Hi patient and clear, that was very helpful and I copied and pasted it into a note to work on it myself. I've identified I'm depressed. I actually saw my np yesterday and I am suffering from moderate depression. That falls under the self reflection step so I will write about that when these threads are locked.

What I meant here was

I, too, suspect that your partner would be hard pressed at this point to say what your bottom line -- what he needs to do for you to feel satisfied -- is.  Clarity about expectations and needs helps a lot when the other person is trying hard to dislodge your boundaries, argue that they did in fact meet them when they didn't, etc.

What I am saying is I allowed my partner to have a relationship with me from 7/12 to 9/15 with the assumption that he had filed for divorce. When I found he hadn't that changed everything. When I say I am confused I mean I am confused about how to go forward from here. He insisted he filed and his lawyer did not. The facts prove otherwise.

I really appreciate your continued input on my threads. The position I am in is very embarrassing to me, I have to be very careful not to beat myself up for not seeing the light sooner. These past two nights are the first two nights in all the years we've been face timing that I've taken two nights off. So I'm taking baby steps to taking space. I also stopped sharing my location with him today, and I turned off his calendars.