"Which would be worse - to live as a monster, or to die as a good man?"

[blackbirdsong]

I reused a quote from the Shutter Island movie. Those who watched it, know what is the main idea, for those who didn't I will try to explain my thoughts in the following topic. Also, the funny thing is that now I believe that this question is something that our (ex)BPD partners need to ask themselves. 

So, I feel bad about my relationship with my ex dBPDgf:

I know my issues.

I know what triggered all those stormy events during our relationship.

I know that I didn't set firm boundaries.

I know that I need to work on my inner self.

I know that this was not a healthy love.

I finally understand her and her behavior, really do. I told her that I understand it during our relationship but I didn't.

I know that we didn't love ourselves (neither one of us) so we couldn't actually love each other.

I know thousand additional stuff that I didn't know before, but I don't have time to write down all of them.

OK, so when I know all of that... .The next step is an easy one... .You need to change.

I cannot change her (something that I didn't realize during our relationship) but I can change myself.

So where is the problem? Why can't I just do that?

I even know the answer to that question. Because part of me refuses to change. Changing would (?) mean to reject all my thoughts, my concepts of love, my feelings, my desires... .

So this repeats my question form the title:

Which is worse: to live with all of these "old habits" and to "be a monster", or to try to be a better man, but this would mean "to kill the old you" and accept that many of the things before were "wrong".

I stated pretty harsh words under the quotation marks, but I hope you get the metaphor.

I am 30y old. I really feel sad considering the fact that I spent so much time chasing wrong concepts in my life. Mainly considering love and relationships. I just can't help thinking that I wasted precious time. ("I am too old for this s***" feeling right now) Looking around, seeing my friends get married, having kids, and I am successful in every part of my life except in the one I care the most. I am sure that part of me also wants to recycle the relationship with my ex BPDgf, because of these feelings. And that is an additional reason to not do that step.

[NCEA]

Monogamy isn't natural.

Don't take it too hard.

[enlighten me]

What you need to bear in mind BBS is its a matter of perspective.

Its your exs perspective of what triggers her.

Its your perspective of needed boundaries with your ex.

For someone else boundaries may not be an issue as they are respected without being enforced.

What upsets your ex may not upset someone else.

Do you go around changing yourself to match everyones perspectives?

[Mutt]

Hi BBS,

Can you see the black and white statement in DiCaprio's line? I think that it's a polarizing statement and that we're in the grey area. I agree with enlighten me and perspectives. I don't think that it's necessarily about ejecting all of our old thoughts and feelings but to grow as a person by learning from other people's perspectives. I don't see change as rejection but opening up ourselves up to new ideas.

Take what wisdom that members share here for example. We all have different perspectives and opinions. Take what you feel aligns with your thoughts and beliefs and pick the bones out of them and use that wisdom to challenge your thoughts and ideas. I think change comes when we learn and from different perspectives and add it to our own.

[bAlex]

Not sure I would choose change. After all, the problem lies with the BPD ex, not me. That took me a long time to fully realize. The normal rules about relationships don't apply to them, they will always find a way to screw things up. In a normal relationship I function quite well, I'm sure you would too. The problem is just that I enjoyed being with her, dysfunctional relationship and all. She knew how to make me addicted to her... all part of the illusion I guess. Thing is I'm pretty sure all the guys she's dated had the same experience on some level, so it's not just me... they all lose it in the end.

I tried change once because of her, I didn't like it. If I'm to live as a monster in her eyes or anyone else's, so be it. Even though she doesn't realize it, we know who the real monster is here.

[blackbirdsong]

Not sure I would choose change. After all, the problem lies with the BPD ex, not me. That took me a long time to fully realize. The normal rules about relationships don't apply to them, they will always find a way to screw things up. In a normal relationship I function quite well, I'm sure you would too. The problem is just that I enjoyed being with her, dysfunctional relationship and all. She knew how to make me addicted to her... all part of the illusion I guess. Thing is I'm pretty sure all the guys she's dated had the same experience on some level, so it's not just me... they all lose it in the end.

I tried change once because of her, I didn't like it. If I'm to live as a monster in her eyes or anyone else's, so be it. Even though she doesn't realize it, we know who the real monster is here.

Well, that is the thing... .Your addiction is not healthy. Our addiction.

This is the change I am talking about. It is not only them. Forgot them. Let them deal with their problem. But I want to change in a way that I don't attract BPD behavior, that it doesn't seem so appealing to me.

Your statement is something like this:

I don't like (insert name of one brand of cigarettes). They produce cancer, they are bad, they smell.

You think that cigarettes are the only problem, and not your addiction to them.

Sooner or later you are going to buy another brand and "let the games begin"... .

[thisworld]

So, I feel bad about my relationship with my ex dBPDgf:

I know my issues.

I know what triggered all those stormy events during our relationship.

I know that I didn't set firm boundaries.

I know that I need to work on my inner self.

I know that this was not a healthy love.

I finally understand her and her behavior, really do. I told her that I understand it during our relationship but I didn't.

I know that we didn't love ourselves (neither one of us) so we couldn't actually love each other.

I know thousand additional stuff that I didn't know before, but I don't have time to write down all of them.

BBS, I've read your post over and over and fail to see how these would make someone a monster - maybe you are, but what you have written doesn't exactly qualify. I can imagine Mother Theresa writing these in her thirties actually. Also, (but this is my personal opinion) changing these would not automatically make you a good man actually. I can imagine many people who have excelled in these but are not necessarily good men.

Most of us will probably fall somewhere between being a monster and an angel throughout our lives. Still, some people may always perceive us as angels or monsters. But why are you thinking of yourself in such extreme terms? Could it be because you have been exposed to a person who has black and white thinking and you haven't been receiving healthy feedback from a close person for a while now?

[joel6242]

I have spent the last few days lying to myself so I could end the NC. Saturday I had to make a decision, do want to loose everything and go back to this relationship or start new. I have a lot of god thing coming in 2016 and need to move forward. My exBPD is sucking the life out of me and I need to move on. Even gone he still has power over me. I need to take control.

[blackbirdsong]

So, I feel bad about my relationship with my ex dBPDgf:

I know my issues.

I know what triggered all those stormy events during our relationship.

I know that I didn't set firm boundaries.

I know that I need to work on my inner self.

I know that this was not a healthy love.

I finally understand her and her behavior, really do. I told her that I understand it during our relationship but I didn't.

I know that we didn't love ourselves (neither one of us) so we couldn't actually love each other.

I know thousand additional stuff that I didn't know before, but I don't have time to write down all of them.

BBS, I've read your post over and over and fail to see how these would make someone a monster - maybe you are, but what you have written doesn't exactly qualify. I can imagine Mother Theresa writing these in her thirties actually. Also, (but this is my personal opinion) changing these would not automatically make you a good man actually. I can imagine many people who have excelled in these but are not necessarily good men.

Most of us will probably fall somewhere between being a monster and an angel throughout our lives. Still, some people may always perceive us as angels or monsters. But why are you thinking of yourself in such extreme terms? Could it be because you have been exposed to a person who has black and white thinking and you haven't been receiving healthy feedback from a close person for a while now?

No, thisworld, you missed the point. Maybe I expressed myself in a wrong way.

I don't think that I am a monster. Not at all. I don't consider myself a bad person at all.

When I said "a monster", I just used a metaphor from the movie, it means that in order to change, to reject all our issues, we need to become a different person. My statement is that this change is not something that we can easily accept. For example love - we had the wrong concept of love while in our relationship with BPD (at least I did, there was no mutual feelings, it was "me giving" and "her receiving" -  she needed me to love her, and I loved to be needed - so no real love at the end)

[bAlex]

Not sure I would choose change. After all, the problem lies with the BPD ex, not me. That took me a long time to fully realize. The normal rules about relationships don't apply to them, they will always find a way to screw things up. In a normal relationship I function quite well, I'm sure you would too. The problem is just that I enjoyed being with her, dysfunctional relationship and all. She knew how to make me addicted to her... all part of the illusion I guess. Thing is I'm pretty sure all the guys she's dated had the same experience on some level, so it's not just me... they all lose it in the end.

I tried change once because of her, I didn't like it. If I'm to live as a monster in her eyes or anyone else's, so be it. Even though she doesn't realize it, we know who the real monster is here.

Well, that is the thing... .Your addiction is not healthy. Our addiction.

This is the change I am talking about. It is not only them. Forgot them. Let them deal with their problem. But I want to change in a way that I don't attract BPD behavior, that it doesn't seem so appealing to me.

Your statement is something like this:

I don't like (insert name of one brand of cigarettes). They produce cancer, they are bad, they smell.

You think that cigarettes are the only problem, and not your addiction to them.

Sooner or later you are going to buy another brand and "let the games begin"... .

I see what you mean... but for me at least it's more about looks + idealizing me in the beginning that got me hooked. does that mean I have a problem? I don't think so. does it mean I have to change? not in my book. because no man I know would refuse her advances, and no man I know would've handled it any better. she would break any man that loves her, and I've seen it happen... essentially she is the "smoking habit". I usually don't attract or date the crazies, this was an exception, 'cause it was hidden from me until it was too late.

[Mutt]

Alex,

It was very intense in the beginning, she used to tell me how "no one has ever made so much sense in her life" and how great I am and that she wants to grow old with me. The feeling was mutual, I've never been happier, never thought it was possible even.

Both parties idealize at the beginning of a relationship and show their best side and see all positives in the other person.

A pwBPD relinquish control during the idealization phase to attach. My ex wife said something similar that she was looking forward to the things that we're going to do together in the future. Is it her fault that I rushed into things with her? Another way would be to take things slow and get to know her for a few months and ger push / pull behavior would rail against my boundaries when emotional intimacy eventually triggers the disorder.

BBS,

I'm speaking for myself when I say this. I didn't feel like I had to radically change into a different person but who I am today was always under the surface. I did a lot of self reflection to find that person.

[once removed]

blackbirdsong,

what, specifically, would you like to change? is it a pattern? a bad habit? something that is fundamentally a part of you? something unique to your relationship?

it sounds like you are talking about patterns and habits. those are changeable, and we can benefit from changing them. self awareness is a good start, but what specifically are we talking about here? it may help to break it down and set goals.

if youre talking about changing what you are attracted to, thats a far more complicated question ill attempt to broach, but the short answer is that it can change.

[thisworld]

Thank you for the clarification BSS, I now understand what you mean better. And thank you for this wonderful thread actually, I believe it is helping a lot of people here because you are guiding us to question very important things with your abstraction.

And (again I may be wrong) but the line you have chosen from the film and the way you describe the process of change ("Changing would (?) mean to reject all my thoughts, my concepts of love, my feelings, my desires... .(... .) ... . but this would mean "to kill the old you" and accept that many of the things before were "wrong" says to me that you have a perception of change that is right now based on a rather radical description of things. And I think I would feel more or less like you if I understood change like that. I mean, between two options only (to live as a monster and to die as a good man), change seems to be the real killer to me (and personally, pretty useless actually. Who would want to change if it results in death even if metaphorically (in our case losing everything that makes us us, in the film lobotomy.) I personally would do everything not to change because I, as a healthy individual, have a sense of self - even if that's a monster (metaphorically). And my nature is more or less programmed to preserve that self. I don't want change if it represents annihilation. It's only sane and rational not to. But I think the difficulty is not in what change is. I find this perception of change kind of unrealistic. What actually makes you think that this is what change is- other than the dilemma thrown at Teddy in the film?

The way I understand it, Teddy's situation (hence the quotation) does not necessarilyapply to us. Neither do the implied consequences in the film. I would even say Teddy's choices and their consequences are thoroughly unnatural as they exist only because of another factor: Teddy is a sort of prisoner, he doesn't have the freedom to chose the way we can. (Why die, why not leave the island and start the real healing with saner doctors? What's gonna kill him really, the guilt, lobotomy or that he simply cannot leave the island?) All he has is something thrown at him, basically X versus Z. Teddy doesn't have the option of Y because authorities do not give that to him. X and Z are not even natural, they are things designed by some authority, they could have designed something else and then that would be our description of change. We, on the other hand, change with and in freedom. This means we are our own authority in change and there is nothing, simply nothing that takes us to Z.

"Truth" is different for us, too. Teddy's truth was decided before him. Everything is based on making him recognize and accept the moral definition defined before him. We, on the other hand, make our own narrative.

We keep what we want to keep about ourselves and change what we want to. And in the process, because we have made our choices, we learn to integrate change as a choice and it doesn't feel like death anyway. In our free process of change, we have the chance to make peace with our change. Teddy wasn't given this. But we are.

Actually, in reality, can you do what you wrote? Can you simply go and kill every thought, every desire, everything that makes us, that doesn't and cannot happen. Our thoughts are ever evolving and emerging. I guess it would really impossible without lobotomy. Ours is something more moderate. There is a gap between who we are and between who we sort of want to be. We simply learn to close the gap. We don't need to kill things, we learn other ways to utilize them. And we have the condition of being good (metaphorically) and live happily available to us. It is available to the pwBPD as well. They, too, don't have to choose between living as a monster and dying as a good person. When they recover to a degree, they enjoy living as a good person. They don't feel this eternal grief that they lost their own self. This option of satisfaction was not given to Teddy.

And even Teddy, this Teddy with limited options on a rainy island, uses the tiny crumble of creative freedom and finds a way to break through this dilemma. He comes up with the only action that is based on his initiative; he isn't forcefully taken to lobotomy, he gives himself to lobotomy, so in a way commits suicide through individual choice. I think that's significant.  


Also, the moment you define yourself as a monster (metaphorically) it shows that you have meta-cognition. That is you are able to separate your judgment from your actions. This also means you have a moral code (that's where the monster comes from). If you have that, you are good the moment you say monster, it's always overlapping. Hence no annihilation.

My two cents.

[enlighten me]

I think rather than changing who you are what is more important to start with is to define who you are, What makes you you? Once you realise this then you can see where change may be needed. If you realise that you are a good, kind, generous person who is always willing to help then maybe this is what got you in trouble. Maybe your generosity was what attracted them or maybe your a white knight who wants to rescue everyone. By putting in a boundary that you only help people when they ask for it or are in such a situation that your help would be appreciated.

[bAlex]

Alex,

It was very intense in the beginning, she used to tell me how "no one has ever made so much sense in her life" and how great I am and that she wants to grow old with me. The feeling was mutual, I've never been happier, never thought it was possible even.

Both parties idealize at the beginning of a relationship and show their best side and see all positives in the other person.

A pwBPD relinquish control during the idealization phase to attach. My ex wife said something similar that she was looking forward to the things that we're going to do together in the future. Is it her fault that I rushed into things with her? Another way would be to take things slow and get to know her for a few months and ger push / pull behavior would rail against my boundaries when emotional intimacy eventually triggers the disorder.

BBS,

I'm speaking for myself when I say this. I didn't feel like I had to radically change into a different person but who I am today was always under the surface. I did a lot of self reflection to find that person.

I understand, all I'm trying to say is that I think that idealizing her or falling victim to any of her bs would be normal for any man dating her. But to me, it doesn't mean that I have a specific problem. She IS the problem, and having dated other ppl proved that to me, 'cause none of these issues existed with them and none of them devalued me like she did. It's just the way she is and her way of gaining control over ppl. It's no wonder most of her friends are male and that most women can't stand her. It's no wonder all her relationships fail horribly. I just don't want ppl falling for the idea that the problem lies within themselves when in reality they were manipulated into thinking that. I can only speak for myself here.

[enlighten me]

Hi Alex

I understand and agree to a certain extent. The bit that I think that is causing a misunderstanding is our part in it. Yes they lied, manipulated and hurt us but we let them. By identifying what allowed them to do this we can avoid it happening again.

If it wasn't a relationship but a fraud that you where the victim of then you would look at what allowed it to happen. With fraud its normally greed that allows us to be cheated. Im not saying were trying to make massive amounts of money but we normally get taken advantage of by trying to not pay full price. With a relationship like fraud its something that seems to good to be true. Were getting something we want relatively cheaply. We don't have to put the effort in and in the beginning get everything we have always wanted.

[bAlex]

Hi Alex

I understand and agree to a certain extent. The bit that I think that is causing a misunderstanding is our part in it. Yes they lied, manipulated and hurt us but we let them. By identifying what allowed them to do this we can avoid it happening again.

If it wasn't a relationship but a fraud that you where the victim of then you would look at what allowed it to happen. With fraud its normally greed that allows us to be cheated. Im not saying were trying to make massive amounts of money but we normally get taken advantage of by trying to not pay full price. With a relationship like fraud its something that seems to good to be true. Were getting something we want relatively cheaply. We don't have to put the effort in and in the beginning get everything we have always wanted.

[bAlex]

Hi Alex

I understand and agree to a certain extent. The bit that I think that is causing a misunderstanding is our part in it. Yes they lied, manipulated and hurt us but we let them. By identifying what allowed them to do this we can avoid it happening again.

If it wasn't a relationship but a fraud that you where the victim of then you would look at what allowed it to happen. With fraud its normally greed that allows us to be cheated. Im not saying were trying to make massive amounts of money but we normally get taken advantage of by trying to not pay full price. With a relationship like fraud its something that seems to good to be true. Were getting something we want relatively cheaply. We don't have to put the effort in and in the beginning get everything we have always wanted.

Well for me acknowledging my part in it is kinda easy. When a hot girl that's a solid 9 by most ppl's standards worships you, offers amazing sex, and knows just how to stroke your ego, and you're both in love... .it would be hard for any man to say no to that, and even harder to give it up. It's amazing what crap you would put yourself through to keep that around, I'm convinced any man would do the same.