The importance of asking questions

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

After a brief relationship with a pwBPD with narcissistic traits, I'm thinking about what I could have done differently. I'm the adult child of a non-grandiose narcissistic mother alright. I stayed in what was a difficult relationship for me for twelve years before (he was not Cluster B). I made every mistake in the book there, for five years, I was downright crazy. I believe I have grown a lot since then. I worked on it. Sometimes I even think being my mother's daughter is a kind of inverse blessing(?) because once I turned what hurt me into something that could empower me, I ended up as someone I quite like actually. I guess I'm lucky in the sense that my bringing up never erased my gut feelings fully. Actually, I can even say that my gut feelings never misled me in my life - of course, if I listen.

In this relationship, too, my gut warned me so many times but I didn't pay enough importance. That's something I need to work on. But there is something else I discovered, and it's not only FOO, not listening to my gut reactions but something that has become an entrenched habit. This is probably something related with FOO and many other things, but also, it has become an ordinary habit. Basically, I do not ask enough questions to people. I believe, if I consciously develop the habit of asking questions, I'll fare much better in the future. I'm a pretty rational person and I think this rationality is able to notice red flags, what I like, what I don't like in a person etc, if I allow it to work. I always use it for other people's troubles, but never for myself. In the future, I'll be more inquisitive and put my rationality into work for myself.

So, this is maybe the most important lesson for me, do not assume that people mean the same thing with the same concept, ask them questions.

An example:

My ex almost "marketed" how important monogamy, loyalty, fidelity etc were, how loyal he was, from day 1. It seemed a bit too much to me. As I discovered later, there is nothing common in our understanding of fidelity (he doesn't have a concept of emotional cheating, at least when he is the cheater). When he talked about these, I wish I had asked "What do you understand from loyalty,?" "Why is it important for you?" etc. Was that a fear of loss on my side? It may be related but I'm a value oriented person so I'm not afraid of "losing" people with whom I don't share certain values. So, I sometimes shut up simply out of habit. I'll not do this anymore. I believe if I had asked this to my ex, he wouldn't have come up with a coherent answer that satisfied me, this relationship may have never started.

If I has asked more questions and listened, I would have noticed that he was seriously distorted or at least we had very different values. I could have found out that some of his "discourses" were just superficial borrowings from here and there.

We have LC communication now, and I get the chance to see how he tries to deflect anything anyway. If I had communicated more proactively, I don't think I would find him attractive.

I now realize, getting to know someone does not just mean listening to things they choose to tell you. It means asking more questions and being a more active communicator in this sense.

I think this is an important skill I need to develop, and I have started already.

So, yes, just wanted to share this and I'll appreciate your comments.

       

[thisworld]

After a brief relationship with a pwBPD with narcissistic traits, I'm thinking about what I could have done differently. I'm the adult child of a non-grandiose narcissistic mother alright. I stayed in what was a difficult relationship for me for twelve years before (he was not Cluster B). I made every mistake in the book there, for five years, I was downright crazy. I believe I have grown a lot since then. I worked on it. Sometimes I even think being my mother's daughter is a kind of inverse blessing(?) because once I turned what hurt me into something that could empower me, I ended up as someone I quite like actually. I guess I'm lucky in the sense that my bringing up never erased my gut feelings fully. Actually, I can even say that my gut feelings never misled me in my life - of course, if I listen.

In this relationship, too, my gut warned me so many times but I didn't pay enough importance. That's something I need to work on. But there is something else I discovered, and it's not only FOO, not listening to my gut reactions but something that has become an entrenched habit. This is probably something related with FOO and many other things, but also, it has become an ordinary habit. Basically, I do not ask enough questions to people. I believe, if I consciously develop the habit of asking questions, I'll fare much better in the future. I'm a pretty rational person and I think this rationality is able to notice red flags, what I like, what I don't like in a person etc, if I allow it to work. I always use it for other people's troubles, but never for myself. In the future, I'll be more inquisitive and put my rationality into work for myself.

So, this is maybe the most important lesson for me, do not assume that people mean the same thing with the same concept, ask them questions.

An example:

My ex almost "marketed" how important monogamy, loyalty, fidelity etc were, how loyal he was, from day 1. It seemed a bit too much to me. As I discovered later, there is nothing common in our understanding of fidelity (he doesn't have a concept of emotional cheating, at least when he is the cheater). When he talked about these, I wish I had asked "What do you understand from loyalty,?" "Why is it important for you?" etc. Was that a fear of loss on my side? It may be related but I'm a value oriented person so I'm not afraid of "losing" people with whom I don't share certain values. So, I sometimes shut up simply out of habit. I'll not do this anymore. I believe if I had asked this to my ex, he wouldn't have come up with a coherent answer that satisfied me, this relationship may have never started.

If I has asked more questions and listened, I would have noticed that he was seriously distorted or at least we had very different values. I could have found out that some of his "discourses" were just superficial borrowings from here and there.

We have LC communication now, and I get the chance to see how he tries to deflect anything anyway. If I had communicated more proactively, I don't think I would find him attractive.

I now realize, getting to know someone does not just mean listening to things they choose to tell you. It means asking more questions and being a more active communicator in this sense.

I think this is an important skill I need to develop, and I have started already.

So, yes, just wanted to share this and I'll appreciate your comments.

       

[fromheeltoheal]

Hey TW-

Yep, ignoring gut feel is common around here, I did plenty of it, not just with my ex but in general, and like you I've had enough of that, especially considering my gut feel is never wrong, and when it's screaming at me because I'm going against it, it's definitely not wrong.  So not letting anything go undiscussed, bringing things up that are bothering me, has become a priority for me as well.  For two reasons really: I want to speak my truth to people because it's true and I want to communicate it, sure, but also it's a great way to see what someone's about by the reaction I get, a test in a way, and I've been doing that a lot with new people I meet, blurt my truth and see what happens, because life is too short for any more screwing around, and the more intense the conversation, the closer or farther apart two people get, quicker.

We have to be careful though.  An old girlfriend who is now a friend says exactly what she's thinking and feeling, full one blurt-mode, although she'll do it before rapport has been built with someone, and it comes off feeling like an interrogation, and she gives the impression she doesn't care about people and is judgmental.  That used to bug the crap out of me, probably why we're not together, but I have to give her credit, she doesn't fck around, gets straight to the point.  But what's the goal?  She does it to feel safe because she doesn't trust easily, but if the goal is to build a relationship with someone, it's much more effective to be in rapport with them first, be emotionally connected, and notice what we're getting when we say something, and be concerned with what the other person is feeling as we're having the conversation, which can be very telling as well.  Never would have worked with my borderline ex, the defense mechanisms flared up any time I tried to go deep, she just couldn't or wouldn't go there, which is a deal breaker right out of the gate, and I agree, going down the path our gut feel takes us is where real is, no sense screwing around with anything but anymore, yes?

[thisworld]

Yessir!   

You are right again:)) Both speaking out our truth and discovering a larger portion of another person's are important. For the latter, I'm practicing asking open ended questions that allow people to expand on what they are saying. One of my problems: empathy comes too quickly. Probably this is an FOO issue, understand people before they speak:)) It's also a bit controlling as it doesn't allow for difference, with my empathy I, perhaps too quickly, move the conversation into an area where I "understand" the speaker but limit the space in which I exist. Or I disagree. Both are based on judgment actually. I'll improve the observation bit. javascript:void(0);

As for blurting out my truth. Thanks again for commenting on this. It's a very interesting area for me. Blurting out my truth would be quite a challenge for me for a lot of reasons - some of which I'm discovering as I'm writing these lines. I'd like to think about this slowly before I blurt out my truth about this issue:)) (There is a good opportunity for me here to increase my self-awareness and I won't waste it just writing down my ordinary narrative as if it were my truth:))

Happy New Year!

[thisworld]

So, I've been thinking about speaking my truth in relationships. I too have a desire to voice myself and have been thinking about blurting things out. I think, I don't have one style in this. When I hear other people speaking about themselves, I feel most comfortable who are expressing things in a relaxed way. I find some people too rigid, in the sense that they come with a full list of what they and cannot accept in relationships. They sound (to me) either too unsure of themselves or too sure. In either case, I feel that I kind of back off emotionally. Comparing myself to those people, I think that I don't have that many boundaries that are unshakable. Mine are a bit more relaxed and I enjoy playing with them as long as I feel safe in a relationship. So, I guess, when I'm in a relationship, the overall feeling of trust or safety is more important than how firm my boundaries are (most of my boundaries are about openness, honesty, respecting the other person enough to give them the truth of the relationship even though it may be uncomfortable sometimes etc). I, too, have certain No No things though. Emotional affairs, triangulations etc. Not only from a moral perspective, either. Those things show me that a man is insecure at a level I cannot help to heal through encouragement or positivity. My libido decreases. I'm comfortable with blurting this out, not immediately, but it comes up pretty quickly. I think people don't always get the message though because I don't say it with a warning tone, maybe? And I don't want to "warn" anyone about this, either. If they want to do it, I wouldn't like to stop them, really. This isn't something where I would step in as a woman and say "Me or them" because I simply don't want a man who is doing this anyway, even if they are ready to stop this not to lose the relationship. I have valid reasons for myself. If a guy is comfortably doing this just for fun without considering my feelings, I cannot "train" that guy, we are not 15 years old. If he is doing this because of an inner need that he cannot stop, he is actually my least favourite kind of guy. I'm not motivated to solve problems with them either. It's not easy to win me back from that point onward. They would really need to do some serious soul-searching, look into the reasons of their behaviour and come up with a serious plan of change that I need to find convincing. Very low probability actually. The true me would also want an apology in front of the other person or a very clear closure with them. Then I would probably respect my partner for this and take him seriously. I find it hard to commit to people that I don't take seriously at an independent level. Still, I think some people don't think that I'll really do these:)) I have a non-violent style of communication and I sometimes wonder whether my culture is used to more exaggerated expressions and whether I should increase my tone a bit. I don't know but I don't want to do that much. Maybe the society has conditioned people differently, I don't know. They expect to be chased when they put someone in a triangle. Triangles sometimes repulse me. My only exception to this would be someone whom I trust overall because of tangible reasons and who puts me in this situation unknowingly. Then I have no problem asking for change. I can distinguish between the two situations very quickly.

In relationship boundaries, I'm very comfortable. Over the years, I have frequently and consistently found out that I have a secure attachment style with low anxiety and in the middle of the matrix. I have no problem with voicing my needs and I don't have difficulty respecting others'. However, I know that this isn't a constant in difficult relationships. My style doesn't change much, I don't get very anxious or fearful but I stop enjoying the relationship. When my feeling of safety is eroded, I stop talking to my partner very openly as well. I don't think it's a must if the basic condition of emotional health is not there. When I was less mature, I remained in a relationship for too long thinking that if we communicated better, the problem would be solved. I went crazy. Luckily, I don't tend to stay in these relationships. In this last relationship, I feel more insulted than hurt really.

But despite my satisfaction with my overall well-being and relationship style, I'm not happy with my risk-prone behaviours in the beginning. There is a mismatch there. I need to strengthen my boundaries for the initial stages of dating and also communicate more, especially hear more. Maybe I'm afraid that people won't like me if I speak up and once we are in a relationship that stress is removed. I don't feel anxious in these initial stages but maybe this fear is unconscious. Whatever the reason, I believe hearing more will make things easier. I don't hide myself much, but I should really work to discover the other person.

I think my main mistake in this last relationship was that he presented some fait accomplis and I accepted them unwillingly. He was an addict, I'm not very judgmental against that morally. He presented himself as someone who just relapsed but had a long experience of a productive life with suboxone. It was something I could live with. Then he quit his rehab in the middle and came to my home in hospital pyjamas. I let him. Seriously, it never occurred to me that this would happen. I wrongly attributed his attention-seeking and other difficult behaviours to this drug use. I saw them as things that would pass once habits of a more productive life settled. Wrong. I know that these trigger each other but his problems were way beyond behaviours of an addict without a personality disorder and I know what I'm saying. 2.5-3 months together, last couple weeks with me working seriously hard to get him out of my house without another overdose or a parasuicide. Still, what finished me off emotionally was my discovery of emotional stuff - which entailed the full and repulsive discovery of this chameleon character. The time in between was an abuse cycle, that grew incrementally with some very good times in between - but his sexual boundaries started hinting at a control problem. Interestingly, these all exploded at the same time. I suspect that my attachment style or boundaries took things to another level where he felt he couldn't control me anymore so his behaviours went to the extreme. I know that before me, he related to females who were very afraid of losing him and sort of accepted him (but also played with him emotionally) despite his hurtful and reckless behaviour in a lot of things. Then he just went over me like a tank and he was very hurt himself, too - though violently. I'm thinking whether I'd like to have any other boundaries to make this relationship work. And the answer is a clear no. And I didn't share my entire truth with him because he was at a point where he was ready to use for truth for more control and abuse. I think I was wise not to. I even regret opening up to him earlier.

Thank you for making me think about these FHTH. I believe this had added something positive to me.   

   



   

[fromheeltoheal]

Hey TW-

Thank you for making me think about these FHTH. I believe this had added something positive to me.    

Hey, you're welcome, and doing some thinking you are!

So, I've been thinking about speaking my truth in relationships. I too have a desire to voice myself and have been thinking about blurting things out. I think, I don't have one style in this. When I hear other people speaking about themselves, I feel most comfortable who are expressing things in a relaxed way. I find some people too rigid, in the sense that they come with a full list of what they and cannot accept in relationships. They sound (to me) either too unsure of themselves or too sure.

Yes, to me that's the point; I blurt my truth because open and honest feels the best to me, and admittedly I have an agenda too, I want to see what I get back.  And I'm not talking romantic relationships exclusively, my relationship with my ex pushed me over an edge and I have zero tolerance for bullsht lately, and this is all a new-found place for me, so I do it with lots of people, including folks I've known for a while, so see who gets the benefit of my company moving forward.

In either case, I feel that I kind of back off emotionally.

Yeah, me too, like remove them from my life.  But the other side is blurting truths gets to the core of things quickly, and I've met some people I definitely want in my life too.

I, too, have certain No No things though. Emotional affairs, triangulations etc. Not only from a moral perspective, either. Those things show me that a man is insecure at a level I cannot help to heal through encouragement or positivity. My libido decreases. I'm comfortable with blurting this out, not immediately, but it comes up pretty quickly. I think people don't always get the message though because I don't say it with a warning tone, maybe? And I don't want to "warn" anyone about this, either. If they want to do it, I wouldn't like to stop them, really. This isn't something where I would step in as a woman and say "Me or them" because I simply don't want a man who is doing this anyway, even if they are ready to stop this not to lose the relationship.

My experience is folks look outside the relationship for emotional fulfillment for only a few reasons:

1.  They aren't getting their emotional needs met in the relationship.

2.  They are uncommitted to the relationship so they don't see it as a transgression.

3.  They have BPD and are focused on attachments full time, or some other PD with its focus, so they just can't help themselves.

Forget the borderlines, I'm done with those.  Now if someone isn't getting their emotional needs met, why not?  That's were communication is critical, and with that communication it will become clear whether a partner is committed, and mature enough to be committed, and if they're not, well, time to make some decisions.  But to me going outside the relationship to get emotional needs met is late, the lack of emotional connection happened a while ago, and not letting that happen, if both folks are committed, is where blurting truths comes in handy; if we felt it, bring it up, have that conversation, it will either make us closer or further apart, but at least we'll know quickly.

In relationship boundaries, I'm very comfortable. Over the years, I have frequently and consistently found out that I have a secure attachment style with low anxiety and in the middle of the matrix. I have no problem with voicing my needs and I don't have difficulty respecting others'. However, I know that this isn't a constant in difficult relationships.

I have an anxious attachment style, so avoidant folks are a very bad fit for me, and secure ones are exactly what I need, someone who can communicate openly with me about what's going on with them when things get sticky.  I can do that when I'm centered, but when I get anxious in the relationship I use 'protest behavior', as it's called, or shtty communication skills to be blunt, and it doesn't help.  Someone with an anxious style would work too, I'd recognize myself in them and we could work through it in our floundering way.  That's an area I need help, staying centered when things get sticky, and the right person doesn't mind helping.

I don't get very anxious or fearful but I stop enjoying the relationship.  When my feeling of safety is eroded, I stop talking to my partner very openly as well. I don't think it's a must if the basic condition of emotional health is not there.

Yep, and that's when the wheels start to fall off the emotional closeness, the genesis of partners looking elsewhere to connect, or a continuation of the rift that started it.

Maybe I'm afraid that people won't like me if I speak up and once we are in a relationship that stress is removed. I don't feel anxious in these initial stages but maybe this fear is unconscious. Whatever the reason, I believe hearing more will make things easier. I don't hide myself much, but I should really work to discover the other person.

Yep, I'm more afraid of ending up with someone who wasn't who I thought they were.  I'm a people pleaser from way back, I'm really good at getting people to like me, respect me sometimes not so much, but like me, no problem.  So it's been a sea change to blurt truths and not care what someone thinks, they get to show me why I should make room for them in my life, right now, no more screwing around.

And I didn't share my entire truth with him because he was at a point where he was ready to use for truth for more control and abuse. I think I was wise not to. I even regret opening up to him earlier.

That sounds like a difficult situation, but good for you for making it through and getting here.  And there's another example; someone who uses our truth to control and abuse us has no business being in our lives, and noticing what we're getting when we open up to someone is crucial in doing our best to ensure it doesn't happen once we're in deep.  I know that if I'd been aware while being open and honest with my ex, and in touch with my gut feel, we never would have started a relationship, and the pain of what it ended up as is inspiring blurt mode moving forward.

Whew!  Thanks for the interaction and discourse!

[thisworld]

Hey FHTH

I thank you, too. Actually, when someone wants to know me better, I may well publish this thread and say, here is my user's guide:)) That would save me a lot of trouble (though it may kill the thrill of discovery substantially:))

You said you admittedly have an agenda. That's the thing. I so have that agenda, too. I think that's what will save me in the end of the day. Only, because it's kind of unnatural for me at the moment, I feel naughty when I do that with people - I'm not meeting anyone for dating purposes but I have already started doing this in everyday conversations. I don't feel guilty or scared but I feel unnaturally mischievous, almost taking pride in having this agenda:)) I feel like the love child of Miss Marple and an adventurous psychopath:)) Even this, this feeling that I'm doing a big thing shows me how passive I was in this regard because I'm attributing strong connotations to this. I think if I ask more questions habitually, it will become normalized. I sometimes feel more confident and feel like "Now, let me ask you a couple of questions." However, probably because this is more like an exercise at the moment rather an a genuine curiosity to know someone -I'm not very interested in knowing someone in more intimate terms because I'm wounded- I don't have that natural wish to discover someone's self that should accompany this practice. It's more like "I wonder what the answer is" for the answer's sake. With friends, it's more genuine but I usually know my friends well. Still, this is helpful practice.

My dialogue pattern shows me that when someone say "admittedly" and admits something, I am willing to open my Pandora's box and blurt my truth

I'm aware that at this stage in my detachment, I may be more dismissive about people than I usually am. My boundaries are a bit higher than usual I guess. I know this happens to me and gets modulated relatively quickly, I don't get bitter about humanity after difficult relationships. Still, it's like two notches up, then one notch down, and that's when I have my true balance. At the moment, I'm emotionally two notches up even though I'm aware of this. I won't force myself to change this. I want to find the balance naturally.

You said "But the other side is blurting truths gets to the core of things quickly, and I've met some people I definitely want in my life too." This is eye-opening. If you asked me just yesterday, before reading this, I wouldn't be able to come up with the positive aspect of blurting truths. But that's so true actually. yes, it also increases our chance of running into similar people.

And wow, I've just realized another thing (I think I'll be indebted to you for the rest of my life, thank you:)). When I wrote "similar people", my gut tightened. It said "no, don't do similar people, don't do that, don't do that." Similar people is my cryptonite. I fall for the similar childhoods, similar life stories narrative. Through our dialogue, I now realize that I want people who have similar ATTITUDES to these stories. Not the story itself, anymore. This self-knowledge is brand new for me. This goal has just emerged openly while I was writing to you and yes, it feels very comforting. Attitudes can only be discovered through asking questions.   

I think attachment styles is just one aspect of how dynamics work. I'm an introvert for instance. That makes me open up slower than an extrovert. I also know that sometimes, I experience my rational side more than my emotional side. Sometimes that's a reasonable outcome of my circumstances but sometimes it's a consequence of being raised in a home where my emotions were not validated by my mother. I'm prone to regressing to that under certain circumstances. It's like a defense mechanism. I tell this to my partners, I told my BPD ex that I knew I may look too rational sometimes but I have a lot of emotions under that. Just give me a cuddle,  and my emotions will come back rather quickly:)) Well, he didn't, he couldn't. I even said a couple of times "I could do with a cuddle:))" That's where I end. I can remind what I need, I can do that lovingly and jokingly and in a goofy way, but if someone else isn't giving that, I can only accept that and think about what I need to do. I think it's important not to force people to give more than they can actually.

Best,

[fromheeltoheal]

You said you admittedly have an agenda. That's the thing. I so have that agenda, too. I think that's what will save me in the end of the day. Only, because it's kind of unnatural for me at the moment, I feel naughty when I do that with people - I'm not meeting anyone for dating purposes but I have already started doing this in everyday conversations. I don't feel guilty or scared but I feel unnaturally mischievous, almost taking pride in having this agenda:)) I feel like the love child of Miss Marple and an adventurous psychopath:)) Even this, this feeling that I'm doing a big thing shows me how passive I was in this regard because I'm attributing strong connotations to this.

I'm fine with my agenda, because it's pure and innocent.  Most people engage in superficial conversation when we first meet them, and I'm tired of that sht, it's a waste of life to me now, but we can't just launch into blurt mode without establishing rapport first.  We can't go "So, did an adult play with your privates when you were a kid?", ":)o you have herpes?", or "How many things have you stolen in your life?" without first establishing rapport, an emotional connection that has someone feeling I give a sht about them first.  Not that those questions are in my top 10, but it's about sharing what's really going on with me, right now, and noticing what I get back, noticing if someone follows me there or not.  If they don't that's OK too, I just won't be spending any emotional energy trying to establish and ongoing connection with them.  So my motives are pure, let's go there or go away, and if I have to lead us there so be it.

I think if I ask more questions habitually, it will become normalized. I sometimes feel more confident and feel like "Now, let me ask you a couple of questions." However, probably because this is more like an exercise at the moment rather an a genuine curiosity to know someone -I'm not very interested in knowing someone in more intimate terms because I'm wounded- I don't have that natural wish to discover someone's self that should accompany this practice. It's more like "I wonder what the answer is" for the answer's sake. With friends, it's more genuine but I usually know my friends well. Still, this is helpful practice.

Yes, I understand, and it is helpful practice.  I'm in a different place, one where I got my ex out of my life, which needed to happen, and then that had a ripple effect in that I noticed there were a few people I was 'friends' with who didn't meet my current definition of 'friend' so out they went too.  And life has become about populating it with empowering people and removing the disempowering ones, and I still have work to do there.  Building the life of my dreams is not something trite I got off an inspirational poster, it's a goal and a project.

I'm aware that at this stage in my detachment, I may be more dismissive about people than I usually am. My boundaries are a bit higher than usual I guess. I know this happens to me and gets modulated relatively quickly, I don't get bitter about humanity after difficult relationships. Still, it's like two notches up, then one notch down, and that's when I have my true balance. At the moment, I'm emotionally two notches up even though I'm aware of this. I won't force myself to change this. I want to find the balance naturally.

Yeah, me too, although mine needed to rise, way too low for too long, and just focusing on 'boundaries', something I'd never done, has risen them, and they need to stay at a minimum level.  But yes, the first year out of my relationship women were evil and needed to go to hell, good thing I got over that, whew!

You said "But the other side is blurting truths gets to the core of things quickly, and I've met some people I definitely want in my life too." This is eye-opening. If you asked me just yesterday, before reading this, I wouldn't be able to come up with the positive aspect of blurting truths. But that's so true actually. yes, it also increases our chance of running into similar people.

And wow, I've just realized another thing (I think I'll be indebted to you for the rest of my life, thank you:)).

Well now!  You're not indebted as we all heal together, but you can 'pay me back' by sticking around and helping, lots of pain in the wake of these relationships.

When I wrote "similar people", my gut tightened. It said "no, don't do similar people, don't do that, don't do that." Similar people is my cryptonite. I fall for the similar childhoods, similar life stories narrative. Through our dialogue, I now realize that I want people who have similar ATTITUDES to these stories. Not the story itself, anymore. This self-knowledge is brand new for me. This goal has just emerged openly while I was writing to you and yes, it feels very comforting. Attitudes can only be discovered through asking questions.   

You ever notice that people who like the same things tend to like each other?  That can be banal like the same football team, the same hobby, the same profession, whatever, but we can extend that to the same values, beliefs about life and outselves, life goals, and yes attitudes as well, at least those we get closest to, and that doesn't need to include a common history.  Good distinction you made!

I think attachment styles is just one aspect of how dynamics work. I'm an introvert for instance. That makes me open up slower than an extrovert. I also know that sometimes, I experience my rational side more than my emotional side. Sometimes that's a reasonable outcome of my circumstances but sometimes it's a consequence of being raised in a home where my emotions were not validated by my mother. I'm prone to regressing to that under certain circumstances. It's like a defense mechanism. I tell this to my partners, I told my BPD ex that I knew I may look too rational sometimes but I have a lot of emotions under that. Just give me a cuddle,  and my emotions will come back rather quickly:)) Well, he didn't, he couldn't. I even said a couple of times "I could do with a cuddle:))" That's where I end. I can remind what I need, I can do that lovingly and jokingly and in a goofy way, but if someone else isn't giving that, I can only accept that and think about what I need to do. I think it's important not to force people to give more than they can actually.

Thanks for this.  When we're in an invalidating environment it's natural to go to our head instead of our heart, partly for protection and partly because we're looking for rational answers to emotional questions because the emotions are being invalidated.  Sorry your ex couldn't soothe either, and I don't know if you've experienced it, but you know that shorthand couples can get into, where they don't need to discuss what they're feeling because their partner just knows?  It's a component of giving a sht and paying attention, and if someone needs some affection, give it to them, without being asked and without talking about it, just do it.  I've had that and I want that.  And building rapport and then using blurt mode to get to the bottom of things is the way to get there, sign me up!

[thisworld]

Hello FHTH,

Yes, I know what you are talking about when you are talking about that unspoken thing between people. In the past, I used to think that it's something that happens only naturally. Dangerously, I somehow connected that with "clicking" at first sight. It's actually one of those FOO things that made me nosedive into my longest relationship I suppose. Not soul-mates but wound-mates:)) Hopefully, I'm at a stage where I have learned to accept that this silent understanding does not necessarily happen in the long term with people who give me the strongest "click" signals first:))

After our last post, I thought of the ways I could possibly be asking for too much in my relationship. What were those behaviours that were superficially healthy but deep down were directed at gaining something he wasn't able to give. (I think this leads to radical acceptance, ultimately. I mean, I'm saying "asking for too much" but my existence as a separate person was too much for the guy to take I think).

Overall, yes, I was asking for something he didn't have - he is mentally disordered. The cognitive coherence I expected just naturally was asking for too much and I know it distressed him.

I didn't ask for a more balanced mood (I expected some effort on his behalf to change this for his own good, which shouldn't be my expectation actually. Then I detached. However, I was unable to accept the acting out parts, which I still believe I shouldn't accept. I'd like to learn your opinion on this?)

I expected honesty, which was too much perhaps. It's both and independent and interdependent value for me. If someone cannot be honest, at least I would like to learn the reason why this cannot happen and change my behaviours if my there is something in our relationship that makes honesty difficult. (I see lying as a defense mechanism sometimes so would like to work to create a safe atmosphere for both people; however, abusers and toxic people tend to abuse this a lot:))

I think I expected things to get better when I provided supportive behaviour, but maybe that was asking for too much as well.  

When I felt like I was asking for too much, I didn't feel very very sad. Acceptance came quickly (immediate strange behaviour, some unexpected triangulations or a strange lack of empathy (or misplaced empathy) in some situations was more saddening.

Did you ever feel like you were asking for too much in your relationship ("too much" under particular circumstances of these relationships, not necessarily with other people)? How did that make you feel? Was it always the same feeling or did it change depending on the situation?

Best,  

[fromheeltoheal]

Hey TW-

Yes, I know what you are talking about when you are talking about that unspoken thing between people. In the past, I used to think that it's something that happens only naturally. Dangerously, I somehow connected that with "clicking" at first sight. It's actually one of those FOO things that made me nosedive into my longest relationship I suppose. Not soul-mates but wound-mates:)) Hopefully, I'm at a stage where I have learned to accept that this silent understanding does not necessarily happen in the long term with people who give me the strongest "click" signals first:))

Yes, good call, and wound-mates is how most of us get in these relationships; I was lonely and susceptible when my ex showed up, and looking for someone to 'save' me from my misery.  Sitting duck for someone looking to attach.  And when a borderline lays on the idealization, not a fiction to them mind you, another shot at a perfect fantasy coming true until it doesn't, and I ate that sht up, feeling like 'soulmates' within weeks.  Yeah right.  Strong relationships take time to build, and the good ones get better with age, and once two people really get to know each other a shorthand develops, and a synchronicity, impossible to create without spending the time and effort, and the raw materials and willingness have to be there for it to happen.  The good news is it was so off-the-charts bullsht with her that my focus has been permanently shifted to well what is real?  And don't settle for anything but.

After our last post, I thought of the ways I could possibly be asking for too much in my relationship. What were those behaviours that were superficially healthy but deep down were directed at gaining something he wasn't able to give. (I think this leads to radical acceptance, ultimately. I mean, I'm saying "asking for too much" but my existence as a separate person was too much for the guy to take I think).

Overall, yes, I was asking for something he didn't have - he is mentally disordered. The cognitive coherence I expected just naturally was asking for too much and I know it distressed him.

Yes, to a borderline you can't be an autonomous individual, because a borderline isn't, and if you have a mind of your own, separate from his, then you are about to leave, or already did.

I didn't ask for a more balanced mood (I expected some effort on his behalf to change this for his own good, which shouldn't be my expectation actually. Then I detached. However, I was unable to accept the acting out parts, which I still believe I shouldn't accept. I'd like to learn your opinion on this?)

To me, if there really is true intimacy and heart-to-heart connection some of the time, then the emotional excursions into crazy may be something someone decides to tolerate, there's plenty of people on the Staying board who consider that the case, and so they learn some tools.  For me there never was any true intimacy between us, so the rest was just unacceptable bullsht and I left.  It's up to us what we are and aren't willing to accept from a partner, and the whole building a relationship thing includes testing each other's boundaries, to see where you stop and I start and how far each of us can go, what we can get away with, not like it's conscious necessarily, might be just a vibe as two souls create something strong between them called a relationship.

I expected honesty, which was too much perhaps. It's both and independent and interdependent value for me. If someone cannot be honest, at least I would like to learn the reason why this cannot happen and change my behaviours if my there is something in our relationship that makes honesty difficult. (I see lying as a defense mechanism sometimes so would like to work to create a safe atmosphere for both people; however, abusers and toxic people tend to abuse this a lot:))

My ex was a pathological liar, extremely good at it, could sound totally convincing, and at it's core was shame over impulsive behaviors, usually sex, and extreme insecurity that made it impossible to share what was really going on, because then my opinion of her would align with her's and I'd leave.  Lying was mandatory.  Nothing for me there.

Did you ever feel like you were asking for too much in your relationship ("too much" under particular circumstances of these relationships, not necessarily with other people)? How did that make you feel? Was it always the same feeling or did it change depending on the situation?

It wasn't that I was asking for too much, I just expected that two people who spent as much time together as we did, me trying to build something and thinking she was too, would get closer emotionally with time.  :)idn't happen.  I've had girlfriends before whom I never got very close to, either because they had avoidant attachment styles or it just didn't click very well for us, but my ex was the extreme.  She just couldn't go there, wasn't capable, she honestly had no idea what I was doing or talking about as I tried to get close emotionally and intimately, and sex was a way for her to bliss out and go into herself, and had little to do with me beyond I was supplying the erection.

How it made me feel was anxious as hell, me with the anxious attachment style, so I just tried harder while going insane.  And to make things worse she enjoyed that because she saw it as solidification of her control.  Fck that.  It's been years for me and I don't really talk about or think about her much anymore, but interacting with you inspires me to go back there, which re-inspires me to be grateful I bailed and grateful for my life, and also very aware of how much I've learned since then.  There's the gift... .

Take care of you!

[thisworld]

Thank you for this reply FHTH. Reading similar situations from someone else's eyes adds so much perspective to what went on. I'm sorry for the anxiety you had to go through. It happened to me in my marriage for 5 years, and wow. Isn't healing like some deep breath.

All the best,

[ReclaimingMyLife]

I don't know who said this, but I love it:  "The quality of your life depends on the quality of the questions you ask." 

Isn't that great?  Thought you might enjoy it.

I tell my kids if they don't like an answer to a question, then they need to ask a different question or ask a different person.  Questions are so very important.  In my r/s with UxBPDbf, I also failed to ask enough and/or different questions AND, out of loyalty, I failed to ask other people too.  Definitely learned a lot from this.  Painful though it was. 

Congrats on your great work!

[fromheeltoheal]

Hey Reclaiming-

"The quality of your life depends on the quality of the questions you ask." 

I heard something similar recently:  "A person's success in life can be measured by the number of uncomfortable conversations they are willing to have."



Nice.

[thisworld]

Thank you for your encouraging words ReclaimingMyLife, and the quote is so true - as I learned the hard way:)) I'll use it as a cognitive break next time and remember it during conversations.

And yes, loyalty. And respecting someone's private life before me. It felt like questioning at the time, whereas I could have asked about his evaluations of his own actions etc, politely stating my wish to avoid his personal details. I fell into the midst of scandal while trying to avoid scandal, it wasn't quality:))

Thanks again,

[thisworld]

"A person's success in life can be measured by the number of uncomfortable conversations they are willing to have."

Wonderful!

Not a tormentingly high number, not a lazily low one:)) 

[ReclaimingMyLife]

I heard something similar recently:  "A person's success in life can be measured by the number of uncomfortable conversations they are willing to have."



Nice.

FHTH, very nice.  I need to remember this applies to the uncomfortable conversations I am willing to have with myself as well as with others.  Both are true.  Thanks for sharing! 

[ReclaimingMyLife]

I fell into the midst of scandal while trying to avoid scandal,... .

BINGO!  I did this exactly.  In my case, once in the scandal I felt complicit and trapped.  Committed to seeing it through, I stayed WAY longer than I would have otherwise.  Turns out, I strongly believe, the scandal reported to me by my ex was itself a lie. 

Had I immediately asked more and better questions of more people and had more difficult conversations, I may have figured it out a lot sooner, left sooner and suffered less damage. 

My honor and integrity coupled with a lack of questions and a lack of difficult conversations was a very BAD combination.   

[Michelle27]

I am late to this thread, but wow, did it ever resonate with me. 

With my BPD ex, I took everything at face value when we met.  I was absolutely wounded after being only 6 months out of a controlling and physically abusive marriage when I met him, and being naive and trusting, I fell for every emotional button of mine that he pushed, even when looking back, my gut was telling me to ask more questions.  It never occurred to me that he might be shaping his "story" to fit mine.

My journey of detaching from the emotional wounds of his BPD behavior (cheating, rages, lies, etc.) was a 2 steps forward, 1 step back zig zag pattern that lasted years.  Even when I was 99% sure I couldn't continue in the relationship at the 14 year mark, I hung onto that 1% of hope, again, without asking the right questions for yet another year before finally pulling the plug.

Worse, within months of separating with him, I found myself in another relationship in which I was much better at asking questions and digging for red flags but still avoiding the one thing I did see for months before talking about it, which was that while 95% of the time he was perfectly open, fine and had the biggest heart of anyone I've ever met, the other 5% of the time he had a serious problem with alcohol which he used to escape when he was overwhelmed with his own issues or mine.  Looking at it somewhat objectively, I did address it in much healthier ways than I ever addressed problems in relationships my whole adult life, and we jointly made the choice to end the relationship (but keep a friendship) after about 7 months because of it.  I'm proud of myself for standing up for myself and not letting it go for years like I did with all of my ex's before him, but I wish I could have addressed the red flag I saw earlier on.   

[C.Stein]

As I discovered later, there is nothing common in our understanding of fidelity (he doesn't have a concept of emotional cheating, at least when he is the cheater). When he talked about these, I wish I had asked "What do you understand from loyalty,?" "Why is it important for you?" etc. Was that a fear of loss on my side? It may be related but I'm a value oriented person so I'm not afraid of "losing" people with whom I don't share certain values. So, I sometimes shut up simply out of habit. I'll not do this anymore. I believe if I had asked this to my ex, he wouldn't have come up with a coherent answer that satisfied me, this relationship may have never started.

Consider the values may be the same however the definition may not ... .or may be variable.  With my ex I believed we shared many of the same values, however how I defined  certain values was different than how she defined them (at times) ... .or applied them to her own behavior.  If circumstances in her life led to redefining values in order to make the behavior or action justifiable, therefore not wrong in her eyes, then that is what would happen.  The core values didn't change, at least as they were applied to me, but for her they could (and did).

Then also consider the parrot factor, when your values are merely parroted back without conviction or real belief.

With respect to the above how do you ferret out the true values?

[thisworld]

Michelle27 hi,

I'm so happy that the cycle is getting shorter for you, too. And the experience of falling for these during our most vulnerable state resonates with me. I experienced this one when I quit a difficult relationship and it also happens if I'm in very close proximity with my NPD mother for a long string of time:)) She has a habit of making my life crises (or let's say turning points) twice as difficult for me and if I don't control myself, I may find myself seeking "solace" in a quick fix of a relationship, which usually happens with troubled people. I haven't experienced it that many times but I know this from a decade ago actually. It was prominent then.

Stay strong!

[thisworld]

As I discovered later, there is nothing common in our understanding of fidelity (he doesn't have a concept of emotional cheating, at least when he is the cheater). When he talked about these, I wish I had asked "What do you understand from loyalty,?" "Why is it important for you?" etc. Was that a fear of loss on my side? It may be related but I'm a value oriented person so I'm not afraid of "losing" people with whom I don't share certain values. So, I sometimes shut up simply out of habit. I'll not do this anymore. I believe if I had asked this to my ex, he wouldn't have come up with a coherent answer that satisfied me, this relationship may have never started.

Consider the values may be the same however the definition may not ... .or may be variable.  With my ex I believed we shared many of the same values, however how I defined  certain values was different than how she defined them (at times) ... .or applied them to her own behavior.  If circumstances in her life led to redefining values in order to make the behavior or action justifiable, therefore not wrong in her eyes, then that is what would happen.  The core values didn't change, at least as they were applied to me, but for her they could (and did).

Then also consider the parrot factor, when your values are merely parroted back without conviction or real belief.

With respect to the above how do you ferret out the true values?

C.Stein, you are right in the sense that some values were the same but the definition was variable  (as in the case of loyalty). Almost in all values though, there was a double standard. I have discovered that my ex's values applied to me but not to him, so basically they meant this is how I want to be treated although I'll not honour my own "values". To me, values are agreed upon and apply to both people. So yes, our situation seems similar. I liken this to what they call "terminal exceptionalism" in addiction. Addicts will have certain values (say, stealing is bad) but when they are in the throes of active addiction, they will steal. They'll manage to justify or compartmentalize this action in their minds  and carry on believing that they have strong values about not stealing - which in their minds, they have.

You are right about the parrot factor. Only, funnily and ironically, this loyalty thing was not a value that I voiced:))

So, how do I ferret out the true values. To me, living according to one's stated values is integrity. We may all fall short but recognizing it and thinking about the causes is important. Values may also change, but it's good to make that change known:)) So yes, after a common understanding, it shouldn't be difficult to see whether statements match actions. To me, the truth of values lies in this.

I also think one's past experiences and how they talk about these, how they interpret these also tells something about their values. Sometimes people tell that they are very considerate in something, and then they start telling you some stories and you look at their comments and it has everything but that particular consideration in it. My ex was a bit like this. 

[eeks]

My ex almost "marketed" how important monogamy, loyalty, fidelity etc were, how loyal he was, from day 1. It seemed a bit too much to me. As I discovered later, there is nothing common in our understanding of fidelity (he doesn't have a concept of emotional cheating, at least when he is the cheater). When he talked about these, I wish I had asked "What do you understand from loyalty,?" "Why is it important for you?" etc. Was that a fear of loss on my side? It may be related but I'm a value oriented person so I'm not afraid of "losing" people with whom I don't share certain values. So, I sometimes shut up simply out of habit. I'll not do this anymore. I believe if I had asked this to my ex, he wouldn't have come up with a coherent answer that satisfied me, this relationship may have never started.

If I has asked more questions and listened, I would have noticed that he was seriously distorted or at least we had very different values. I could have found out that some of his "discourses" were just superficial borrowings from here and there.       

As I read the replies, I wonder for how many of us this "what kind of questions do we ask in relationships" is related to ":)o we trust our gut or not"?  And why?

I've been naturally inquisitive as long as I can remember, I think for me it comes from wanting to be sure I understand.  (Not out of doubt of my capacities, but a genuine interest in understanding the other person's motivations, etc.)

So it is interesting for me to ask "When don't I do that?"  When I feel anxious (sometimes that fear is related to social propriety, or fear of offending someone).  Possibly that I don't want to know the answer, but I think it's more... ."I know I should reject this [job offer, relationship etc.], but I have to accept it because it's not possible for me to do better."  What's funny is, I realize that's less "I am not good enough to do better" and more "this is how life is, you just accept the unsatisfactory because that's how life is."

Which seems to be my parents' attitude.  You guys wonder why I am always pointing out the difference between acceptance and resignation? 

I might have a little bit of fear that "something better won't come along", but I realized... .it's more a fear of how others will react!  scandal!  finger-pointing!  "who does she think she is?"  I am now wondering if my parents, even though they (well, my mother) expressed desire for me to have a good life, unconsciously they feared me surpassing them, so "loyalty" became associated with staying at their level.

It's not a far fetched assumption, for example those families where one person is the first to decide to go to college, it's so easy to imagine members of that person's family, if they are emotionally immature, saying "oh look, here he comes, Mr. Hoity-Toity Ivory Tower Knowitall. Too good for us working folk huh?"

[fromheeltoheal]

I might have a little bit of fear that "something better won't come along", but I realized... .it's more a fear of how others will react!  scandal!  finger-pointing!  "who does she think she is?"  I am now wondering if my parents, even though they (well, my mother) expressed desire for me to have a good life, unconsciously they feared me surpassing them, so "loyalty" became associated with staying at their level.

It's not a far fetched assumption, for example those families where one person is the first to decide to go to college, it's so easy to imagine members of that person's family, if they are emotionally immature, saying "oh look, here he comes, Mr. Hoity-Toity Ivory Tower Knowitall. Too good for us working folk huh?"

Oh yes.  We all have both the need for significance (the need to feel unique), and the need for love and connection, and those needs oppose one another: the more significant and unique we are, the less we feel connected to others, the more love and connection we have, the less significant or unique we feel.  That's where sayings like "it's lonely at the top" come from.

And why does our "peer group" take offense to our ambitions?  Couple of possibilities: they feel like you're leaving, leaving them behind, you're telling them you're "better" than them, or you're shining a light on their lack of ambition, and how dare you, that doesn't feel good.  Group dynamics are interesting: get down a little bit and struggle, your friends will pick you back up, but get too far down and they'll let you go.  And get a little successful and they'll rally for you and be supportive, but get too successful and they'll let you go; stay within the parameters of the group, usually unspoken, and you're good, stray outside those parameters and you're no longer "one of us".  Significance vs connection.

So the key for me is to find another group.  Funny how parents usually want a better life for their children than they had, but when the child gets that better life there can be resentment, or at least lack of connection, no longer part of that group.  Me, I've pretty much had it with unsupportive people; if my achievements are making people feel like I'm no longer part of "them" so be it, there's always another group of "them", folks my significance is more in line with, so folks I can connect with better.  And we'll see how group dynamics show up, significance vs connection will still be happening, but there is no longer a desire to settle in the name of connection.

[thisworld]

I have been putting some serious thought to Eek's post above. Serious thought here means tidying up and  reorganizing every unimaginable thing like make-up brushes, rubbish bags, shot glasses to procrastinate and avoid, then crying about a prominent feeling from my childhood and then thinking about it. My mind is calm now and the house tidier than ever:))

I've been naturally inquisitive as long as I can remember, I think for me it comes from wanting to be sure I understand.  (Not out of doubt of my capacities, but a genuine interest in understanding the other person's motivations, etc.)

So it is interesting for me to ask "When don't I do that?"  When I feel anxious (sometimes that fear is related to social propriety, or fear of offending someone).

In my case, I don't ask questions when I can sense that something is a bit off. One reason I know about myself is that maybe I'd have to face the truth of that person and if I'm already attracted that wouldn't be nice. But that's not emotionally very difficult for me. I have realized that this is way more difficult. So my mother is NPD. So are her cousins. I think that's a troubled family. Sometimes they are so fake around people. They blatantly lie about facts like career etc of their lives (cousins more than my mother, my mother is happier with her career and things like that but she is very phony about emotional things. Sometimes she tells me about how we lived when my father was alive, and we certainly didn't . Anyway, as a child and a young adult, I experienced tremendous amounts of second-hand shame around these people. I now think that when I see a red flag - like someone not sharing a reliable truth- I'm afraid that they'll be shamed. Shaming someone is almost a taboo for me. I should say "was". I've now let go off that taboo. It's actually not even my responsibility. I'm not shaming anyone, am I? If they feel ashamed, that's up to them. This will be a great improvement in my life, thank you Eeks and Board! 

It's not a far fetched assumption, for example those families where one person is the first to decide to go to college, it's so easy to imagine members of that person's family, if they are emotionally immature, saying "oh look, here he comes, Mr. Hoity-Toity Ivory Tower Knowitall. Too good for us working folk huh?"

Hah ha, my mother does this although half of my education is by her efforts:)) But she does this when I try to communicate with her about something emotional and talk about empathy (how she should admit she lacks it) and "read" her behaviour - which I shouldn't do but sometimes I do- so I deserve it I guess:)) Then comes "No man will be with you if you go on like this." This is a family ritual:)) She doesn't do it at other times, my education is also something to boast about to other people:)) Well well. 

 

[thisworld]

FHTH hi

Oh yes.  We all have both the need for significance (the need to feel unique), and the need for love and connection, and those needs oppose one another: the more significant and unique we are, the less we feel connected to others, the more love and connection we have, the less significant or unique we feel.  That's where sayings like "it's lonely at the top" come from.

This is new for me. I never thought of these as opposing needs, but then I've never given much thought to this, either. I feel like everyone is inevitably unique anyway and connection does not change this. My understanding comes from a belief rather than a psychological need that I'm aware of, so who knows.

And why does our "peer group" take offense to our ambitions?  Couple of possibilities: they feel like you're leaving, leaving them behind, you're telling them you're "better" than them, or you're shining a light on their lack of ambition, and how dare you, that doesn't feel good.  Group dynamics are interesting: get down a little bit and struggle, your friends will pick you back up, but get too far down and they'll let you go.  And get a little successful and they'll rally for you and be supportive, but get too successful and they'll let you go; stay within the parameters of the group, usually unspoken, and you're good, stray outside those parameters and you're no longer "one of us".  Significance vs connection.

I think I have more individual friends than groups nowadays. I've lived in different countries, studied in different countries, changed cities and so have my friends. So, everyone is kind of scattered now. So, I don't get this exactly from a group but some individuals have done things like this. As far as I can tell, they were mostly older, dominant females that I was drawn to in my early adulthood and our friendships ended when I liberated myself relatively from my mother and also started acting more independently. These friends certainly didn't like it. I actually experience quite strong attacks. 

Me, I've pretty much had it with unsupportive people; if my achievements are making people feel like I'm no longer part of "them" so be it, there's always another group of "them", folks my significance is more in line with, so folks I can connect with better.  

Oh yes! Because I am "too sensitive", "too intellectual", "too X", "too Y" to controlling people I sometimes associate with, I tend to make a point sometimes that "too" is something relative and maybe from my perspective some people are "too little" something. The last time my mother pulled the Hoity-Toity too educated thing -I've just learnt it in English and am loving it- I said "I'm way less educated than some people I know, do you mean I'm too educated for you or you are too ignorant for me?" I'd never say something like this to someone whose purpose is not to hurt me but with my mother, a bit of talking back helps sometimes. She does better with boundaries afterwards. Sad but true. Next time, I'll say "My friends call me Hoity-Toity so please address me with that name:))

 

[fromheeltoheal]

Hoity-toity!  Haven't heard that one in a while; that's the significance thing I was mentioning, someone in our "group", and it only takes two to make a group, thinks we're saying we're 'more significant' than there are, whether we are or aren't, it's their perception that matters, we may get labelled hoity-toity, which may go with "who the hell do you think you are, you think you're better than me?  Well screw you... ."  blah, blah.  Then we have a choice to make.  There was a time when I was younger where I'd downplay my achievements to not alienate friends, I was placing connection above significance, which worked for a while, but then I started resenting them for stifling me, and they threw around terms like hoity-toity.  That wasn't working for any of us, and it took a while, but I eventually started looking inside for validation and direction instead of outside.  Following our own bliss and seeing who shows up in our lives is so much more freeing and genuine, only took me a decade or two to figure that out and go there.

The last time my mother pulled the Hoity-Toity too educated thing -I've just learnt it in English and am loving it- I said "I'm way less educated than some people I know, do you mean I'm too educated for you or you are too ignorant for me?" I'd never say something like this to someone whose purpose is not to hurt me but with my mother, a bit of talking back helps sometimes. She does better with boundaries afterwards. Sad but true. Next time, I'll say "My friends call me Hoity-Toity so please address me with that name:))

Now mothers, that's a whole different thing.  You gave me a flashback: my mother grew up in poverty, fled young to the States, had children and built a life, and gave her children far more opportunity than she ever had.  So I took that opportunity and made myself successful, which in turn created a gap between mother and me, which is motivation for distancing myself if we're not going to be on the same page, which is what I'd do with anyone else, but she is my mother, so we had a conversation recently where I was commenting on her poor working class upbringing, just commenting, but she took it as a slam and got defensive.  This is new for us, she never, ever got defensive when we were younger, Queen of her kingdom she was, laying down the law.  I kind of liked it in a way, I've become what she hated and felt 'less than' growing up, a little retribution there, probably shouldn't enjoy it as much as I do, but what the hell, I'll revel for a minute... .

Have a good one!

[thisworld]

Thank you FHTH for another eye-opening post:))

Haven't heard that one in a while; that's the significance thing I was mentioning, someone in our "group", and it only takes two to make a group, thinks we're saying we're 'more significant' than there are, whether we are or aren't, it's their perception that matters, we may get labelled hoity-toity, which may go with "who the hell do you think you are, you think you're better than me?  Well screw you... ."  blah, blah.

Thank you for this. Now it has become much clearer and I think yes, I have gotten this from two friends actually. I think one was a bit controlling (perhaps with some narcissistic tendencies) and I accidentally gave her the impression that I was morally better than her. (When she, this elder woman who took herself to be my mentor!, asked me to spread gossip about her ex boyfriend's professional abilities and I directly said no, I wouldn't do that. Incredible. Unfortunately, I didn't know about S.E.T then and I just froze and sat there. I was banned from her "friendship". Then I have another female friend and I know understand better why she may be reacting to me the way she does - though I think she misunderstands me.

Then we have a choice to make.  There was a time when I was younger where I'd downplay my achievements to not alienate friends, I was placing connection above significance, which worked for a while, but then I started resenting them for stifling me, and they threw around terms like hoity-toity. 

I'm guilty of downplaying my achievements, too - in my professional life actually. It made some people very arrogant and then when I opened my mouth, it shocked everyone. In my culture, people miss a particular point: That I'm modest or polite or whatever doesn't mean I can't protect myself. Nowadays, these are usually perceived as weakness here, the culture is overall more aggressive, competitive and I'd even say narcissistic. I sometimes feel that I have to be more aggressive (I don't know how to put it in English, like more at the front stage?) so that people don't think I'm weak and start stepping on me. Have you ever experienced this? Do you have tips for me?

Now mothers, that's a whole different thing.  You gave me a flashback: my mother grew up in poverty, fled young to the States, had children and built a life, and gave her children far more opportunity than she ever had.  So I took that opportunity and made myself successful, which in turn created a gap between mother and me, which is motivation for distancing myself if we're not going to be on the same page, which is what I'd do with anyone else, but she is my mother, so we had a conversation recently where I was commenting on her poor working class upbringing, just commenting, but she took it as a slam and got defensive.  This is new for us, she never, ever got defensive when we were younger, Queen of her kingdom she was, laying down the law.  I kind of liked it in a way, I've become what she hated and felt 'less than' growing up, a little retribution there, probably shouldn't enjoy it as much as I do, but what the hell, I'll revel for a minute... .

Wow. My mother had a similar past and a very difficult childhood in poverty. I too experienced the opportunity thing. I think she resents both me and my late father - coming from a very different and comfortable background but not a competitive man- for not making use of our opportunities the way she would like - only, her narrative about my father changed when we lost him. Unfortunately, nobody took her very seriously - but nobody was completely free of criticism, either. Sometimes, I enjoy little retributions, too - I went NC with her before but she is older and lonelier now and I'm an only child so I'll not leave her. We are actually neighbours:)) So, a little retribution is OK as well as pretending to be angrier than I am so she watches the boundaries a bit ;-)

Hoity,

[fromheeltoheal]

Hey TW-

I'm guilty of downplaying my achievements, too - in my professional life actually. It made some people very arrogant and then when I opened my mouth, it shocked everyone. In my culture, people miss a particular point: That I'm modest or polite or whatever doesn't mean I can't protect myself. Nowadays, these are usually perceived as weakness here, the culture is overall more aggressive, competitive and I'd even say narcissistic. I sometimes feel that I have to be more aggressive (I don't know how to put it in English, like more at the front stage?) so that people don't think I'm weak and start stepping on me. Have you ever experienced this? Do you have tips for me?

Yep, there's an epidemic of narcissism in the U.S. too, to the point that that word is getting overused and applied to everything, but times have changed, more fear, more crowding, more uncertainty, and the response is to just move faster and take care of yourself more.  Slowing down and creating some peace has become job number 1, at least for me.

I think what you're referring to is the alpha, male or female, the one in charge; there are two kinds of people, leaders and followers, and if you aren't strong enough to lead you're stuck following, either that or you venture out on your own, tired of the bullsht dynamics, which is pretty much me.

That's actually a big issue for me.  I have people pleaser tendencies, want everyone to like me, avoid confrontation, someone who has been run over by alpha males more than once (and fallen for a borderline, no mystery there anymore), and I'm getting deeper into Pete Walker's book on CPTSD, and although not all of it is applicable a lot is.  The thing that jumps out right now is self-abandonment, where we abandon our own needs, common among folks who have weathered some trauma, and the key areas of focus in taking ourselves back are self-compassion and self-protection.  That information is profound to me, hit me at the right time, and I've been focusing on being nice to myself and treating myself kindly, and sometimes that needs to include telling an ass to shut the fck up.  Ok, that's a little blunt, but that's where I'm at right now, the repressed rage is bubbling and I'm overshooting the mark a little at times but that's OK, better than undershooting, and the other piece is some fights just aren't worth fighting, better to just walk away.

So advice?  Be very kind to yourself, treat yourself better than you treat anyone and make decisions from that place, with a focus on self-compassion and self-protection.

Sometimes, I enjoy little retributions, too - I went NC with her before but she is older and lonelier now and I'm an only child so I'll not leave her. We are actually neighbours:)) So, a little retribution is OK as well as pretending to be angrier than I am so she watches the boundaries a bit ;-)

Whoa, I don't think I could be neighbors with my mother, but good for you for being a loyal daughter.  My mother remarried (at the age of 80!) after my father died and moved a few hundred miles away, and pretty much disowned the family, so we're estranged right now, but her new husband isn't going to live much longer, so then what?  The loyal son needs to step up and take care of mom again, lovely, not looking forward to it, and I'm sure there will be more relationship dynamics thrills to be had.  And I choose to believe more lessons to be learned.  Amazing how deep things run with our parents.

pretending to be angrier than I am so she watches the boundaries a bit ;-)

I love that.  Self-compassion.

Have a good one!

[eeks]

I have been putting some serious thought to Eek's post above. Serious thought here means tidying up and  reorganizing every unimaginable thing like make-up brushes, rubbish bags, shot glasses to procrastinate and avoid, then crying about a prominent feeling from my childhood and then thinking about it. My mind is calm now and the house tidier than ever:))

I can think of worse ways to procrastinate!  

In my case, I don't ask questions when I can sense that something is a bit off. One reason I know about myself is that maybe I'd have to face the truth of that person and if I'm already attracted that wouldn't be nice. But that's not emotionally very difficult for me. I have realized that this is way more difficult. So my mother is NPD. So are her cousins. I think that's a troubled family. Sometimes they are so fake around people. They blatantly lie about facts like career etc of their lives (cousins more than my mother, my mother is happier with her career and things like that but she is very phony about emotional things. Sometimes she tells me about how we lived when my father was alive, and we certainly didn't . Anyway, as a child and a young adult, I experienced tremendous amounts of second-hand shame around these people. I now think that when I see a red flag - like someone not sharing a reliable truth- I'm afraid that they'll be shamed. Shaming someone is almost a taboo for me. I should say "was". I've now let go off that taboo. It's actually not even my responsibility. I'm not shaming anyone, am I? If they feel ashamed, that's up to them. This will be a great improvement in my life, thank you Eeks and Board!  

You're welcome.  Glad to help.  So, this second-hand shame thing... .do you mean that if someone you are talking to does something like "not sharing a reliable truth", you (up until very recently) were afraid if you responded in such a way that forced them to admit it, even if you did so non-confrontationally, that they would feel shame?

I didn't intend for being more educated than one's FOO to become part of the discussion, I was just trying to think of examples of things that might distance a person from their FOO and impact "loyalty", and education jumped up as an obvious one.  And yet, the fact that it has may lead me to notice what might be a relevant broader theme... .

... .What is our relationship to "rocking the boat"?  How do we feel about doing things (whether it's asking questions, being "more" or "less" educated or ambitious, any way we refuse to do what's expected) that disrupt the status quo in the groups that we are a part of, whether it's family, friends, work?  

[fromheeltoheal]

... .What is our relationship to "rocking the boat"?  How do we feel about doing things (whether it's asking questions, being "more" or "less" educated or ambitious, any way we refuse to do what's expected) that disrupt the status quo in the groups that we are a part of, whether it's family, friends, work?  

I've always considered being a recalcitrant freethinker a virtue, although I haven't always had the courage to champion it, plus I spent a lot of time looking entirely for external validation, which is a big conflict for a would-be rebel.  But that's gotten better.  I was reading a set of beliefs last night, gathered as an aid in reparenting, and one of them was "you can pick your own friends, you don't have to like everyone."  That was a little bit old news, but it got me thinking that I used to treat everyone the same and expect that if I was nice and kind they would be too.  NO!  That's a naive mindset, folks got agendas, like borderlines, and it's much better to add awareness and a focus on self-compassion to the mix.  And no, we don't have to like everyone.  So I don't want a boat that rocks, I want to throw a few folks overboard, leave some at the dock entirely, and sail off into the sunset with the right people, and funny how those are rarely the ones we're related to.

[thisworld]

Hi

With these relatives, I think I experienced feeling the shame they were unable to shame while they were doing the (to me) shameful action of putting up a blatantly fake façade and deceiving people. I think those moments when I think someone is telling a lie or putting up a façade may be triggering that so I may be avoiding my feeling to a degree. Maybe the discomfort I still feel has elements of this second-hand shame as well as a gut warning me diligently. Then I probably over identify or empathise and try to prevent them from the shame of being exposed, from the shame of their own fabrications whether they do it consciously or believingly.

I think I feel very embarrassed when someone lies and I know it. For instance, I'm not very afraid of being left alone or losing someone because I expose a lie, but I feel so embarrassed that I tend to let things slide sometimes - unless a) it really violates a big value b) we are comfortable and safe enough with each other to laugh at some fibs together.    

I think being educated was spot on in my case because it gets mentioned when I argue for something from a different perspective. So, discussion and education are related like that. With another controlling friend, "better morals" became the issue. So yes, whatever saying No is associated with in the eyes of the controller. Hoitiness is in the eye of the beholder

My relationship to rocking the boat. I'll think about it - more tidying up, yay!