Anyone got their undiagnosed BPD to expert therapist and treatment? How?

[EmpathyBoy]

Hi All!

I am looking for real stories of success if possible and not failure (too many of those).

BPD in practice is one of the more disruptive/chaotic ones in terms of relations, there is evidence that it may be more treatable than say NPD.

The trouble is getting the BPD to an expert therapist/clinic with experience dealing with BPD's as they are difficult patients.  I feel intelligence is a factor too as it enhances their ability to manipulate others including therapists - you need someone able to go toe to toe with them.

I have known for over a decade that my sister has BPD, but with my NPD father's resistance, I have never been able to get her diagnosed and the therapy, CBT/DBT that would help her out and of course improve her relationships.

I have no idea what illusions she is living under, but after decades of standing still and burning relationship after relationship... .she must know that at least part of it is something to do with her?

I already have a list of therapists and clinics, but have no idea how to thread the needle and everyone is terrified of being harassed by both my BPD sister and NPD father.  I would like to hear any success stories that went from undiagnosed, to treatment, to better relationships.

Thanks!

 

[Please help]

Therapy only works if one realizes they have a problem and need help. The BPD in your life does not have a problem. If anything, you are the one creating havoc for them by not enabling their behavior.

Sorry I do not have more positive news. I have seen good people step in and help BPD's only to have the BPD turn on them after a period of time.

If a BPD does go ahead with therapy, it's only a manipulation tactic and they will be looking for an out. I was able to get my ex to admit she married me for money (not that I have any). For a BPD, this is taking the mask off them and hurts more than anything. It's no wonder she refused to speak with me until we divorced.

Please focus on trying to understand why you are involved with a BPD and try to heal yourself.

[Kwamina]

Hi EmpathyBoy

There are forms of therapy that have been proven to be effective for certain people with BPD. Certain people with BPD have through hard work learned to better manage their difficult thoughts and emotions and as a result have improved their behavior. For this to happen it is essential that the person fully acknowledges that there is something wrong with his/her behavior and fully commits to working on his/her issues. It is very difficult to get people to change if they don't want to change themselves and/or don't feel like there is a problem.

I have no idea what illusions she is living under, but after decades of standing still and burning relationship after relationship... .she must know that at least part of it is something to do with her?

Has your sister in the past ever in any way acknowledged that there might be something wrong with her behavior? Or perhaps expressed a desire for wanting to do something about certain problems she's experiencing in her life?

Do you know how she feels about the current state of her life and the relationships that didn't last? Would you say she's sad about these things or just seems to think this is the normal way things are supposed to be?

[EmpathyBoy]

Therapy only works if one realizes they have a problem and need help. The BPD in your life does not have a problem. If anything, you are the one creating havoc for them by not enabling their behavior.

That seems true, but again I am looking for stories that worked out.

The relative consensus among the relatives that think she needs help is as long as my father is alive supporting her financial and defending her socially... .she has no reason to believe she has a problem or get help.  She's 46 and never worked to support herself, gotten everything by draining both parents financially and allowed to be a perpetual student for 27+ years without a degree.  Like a female Peter Pan, she has never had to grow up and face the real world.

Sorry I do not have more positive news. I have seen good people step in and help BPD's only to have the BPD turn on them after a period of time.

Yes, I fear the blowback from her sooner or later if I try to get her help.  It would be traceable back to me no matter how I did it and perceived as an attack on her image and self-image.  No one can be entirely protected against someone who seemingly has infinite amounts of time to spend on revenge or attacks and seemingly has no scruples and respects no boundaries.

If a BPD does go ahead with therapy, it's only a manipulation tactic and they will be looking for an out.

I had a prelude to this from a few years ago.  My father picked this poorly equipped, low intelligence, social worker with no experience or credentials at dealing with BPD, NPD or any PD's for us to have family counselling sessions together.  I think he knew the guy personally too, so it was a total setup and 2 on 1.

Still when I pointed out that the counselor's statement about all three of us being stable and productive individuals was untrue in my sister's case, she somewhat lost it and did not come back to the other 2 sessions.  I went to all 3 and he might as well have been a golfing buddy of my father who was giving him a discount.  I still think a real expert would know how to handle BPD and NPD's better.

For a BPD, this is taking the mask off them and hurts more than anything.

I can see that, but doesn't the mask wear a bit thin over the years?  Even nominally I think my sister's excuses were wearing thin a decade ago.  Now her stories should start seeming silly even to herself - can everyone, even random strangers, professors, etc. be out to get her?

Please focus on trying to understand why you are involved with a BPD and try to heal yourself.

Answer to that question is she is my sister.  Outside of family, I do not keep contact with any obvious PD people unless I have no choice professionally... .life is too short.

Still interested in any success stories... .finding stories of failed or manipulated therapy sessions is like shooting fish in a barrel.

[busybee1116]

Still interested in any success stories... .finding stories of failed or manipulated therapy sessions is like shooting fish in a barrel.

I think you will have a hard time finding any success stories... .that's the point with BPD, they don't recognize they are the problem in chaotic relationships or that they have issues to work on. And even those that do, it's an uphill battle.

However, having said that, my uBPDm went to therapy for a period. It was mainly to deal with depression and apparently we were all the cause of that (she claims my uNPDf is controlling, I am too busy for her, her family abandoned her, my bro is too far away), oh poor me. Her first counselor just validated her feelings and they did no digging. Told her to be more assertive and gave her tools for how, which just helped her flip more frequently from waif to queen. 2nd therapist was to help with "memory" issues which turned out to be depression/alcohol. I think he tried to get her to do more reflection but in the end, she tended to use therapy as a weapon against us "my therapist says [and I really doubt her therapist said any of the things she claimed he did] X would be a really good idea." Or "my therapist says you are wrong." Or whatever. She was supposed to do a homework assignment with me once and it was a complete disaster--she claims the assignment was to ask me what kind of mother I think she is. Turns out she was supposed to apologize to me for something--my dad had attended the session where she got the homework assignment. She later did the assignment with my bro and told him she was to apologize to him and then kind of did but in a backhand way and managed to criticize his wife (who she dislikes) in the process. So I know you didn't want failed therapy stories, but just to show you she thought there was a problem, sought therapy on her own without coercion... .and just used therapy for her ends.

[EmpathyBoy]

Has your sister in the past ever in any way acknowledged that there might be something wrong with her behavior? Or perhaps expressed a desire for wanting to do something about certain problems she's experiencing in her life?

She acknowledge that she likely has OCD to me in person and that she might be more difficult, strident or unforgiving when discussing our mother previously.  She asked how I could have a relationship with my mother (ironically BPD) and I said I let things go and would not let my mother discuss or dwell on the past when interacting with me.  She also acknowledged getting into fights/arguments with staff at the college (graduate assistants, professors, other people), but typically they were wrong.  She did not admit fault exactly in some of these situations, but did seem to acknowledge she was very black/white in her thinking indirectly.  This was during the last brief period when she again considered me a friend about 3.5 years ago.

Do you know how she feels about the current state of her life and the relationships that didn't last? Would you say she's sad about these things or just seems to think this is the normal way things are supposed to be?

Well it seems in the last few years she developed a theory that I was the bad influence in her life holding her back.  Mind you part of this is and has always been clearly financial.  She has used/drained over 97-99% of the financial resources of my parents over her life.  I got jobs, scholarships and student loans to pay my own way since I was like 10.  She got an allowance or spending money or credit cards they paid for, money they wired her, free apartments, cars, etc. for many decades.

Her current theory that I became her "worst enemy" seems to be mostly based on my wanting to have boundaries, my own life and the small amount of attention or support including financial (even if they were just temporary loans) from my parents.  I also started to refuse to indulge the fantasy of hers where the world is against her and they have to change instead of her.  I never explicitly indicated a specific psychological problem she has, but did suggest counselling or therapy might help her as she is the one who has problems letting go of things long past.

Again, while it may not be relevant to my particular situation... .I would like to hear of the circumstances of any real BPD seeking/getting therapy from others on here.

[EmpathyBoy]

I think you will have a hard time finding any success stories... .that's the point with BPD, they don't recognize they are the problem in chaotic relationships or that they have issues to work on. And even those that do, it's an uphill battle.

I understand that.  It can be similar, but likely worse than drug or alcohol addiction, since it is non-obvious medically that way and the health care systems do not seem designed to properly detect, diagnose or treat anyone with PD's.  In general they cause wreckage with many they interact with and feel they do not have any problems - it is the others that have the problem and their conditions create a self-reinforcing delusion and warping of reality.

So I know you didn't want failed therapy stories, but just to show you she thought there was a problem, sought therapy on her own without coercion... .and just used therapy for her ends.

Thank you for sharing anyways.  I have read about many books on BPD and almost as many on NPD over the last decade along with online resources.  Most stories are like yours and end up backfiring or causing blowback regardless of how the person got to therapy.

My area has a very poor level of quality therapists and social workers in general.  The local university has one of the least respected programs for psychology and social work.  Mostly a blue-ish collar town whose medical community makes $ of workers comp and retired workers with gold plated pensions.

The other related matter is my life.  I went through some tough times post housing bubble and need to move on and deal with my own life and find a SO instead of focusing on my sister or father.  Still I am a long term planner and would like to eventually try to get her some help and heal some wounds with a trained and experience professional who will not be easily manipulated by a BPD or NPD.

[Suzn]

BPD in practice is one of the more disruptive/chaotic ones in terms of relations, there is evidence that it may be more treatable than say NPD.

In both cases it depends on several factors. Severity, for one. High functioning, low functioning? There can be co-morbid disorders involved too.

The trouble is getting the BPD to an expert therapist/clinic with experience dealing with BPD's as they are difficult patients.  I feel intelligence is a factor too as it enhances their ability to manipulate others including therapists - you need someone able to go toe to toe with them.

People with BPD are generally not self aware enough to realize they need help. In your sister's case, like you said, she has no reason to believe she needs help with your father enabling her. With him treating her like a victim how will she see her side? Enabling only strengthens her view of herself being that victim.

A good therapist knows there is no forcing recovery. Trust is a big factor in a patient/therapist relationship and this can take a lot of time. We have to remember that a standard therapy session only lasts 50 minutes. And then there is the frequency, once or twice a week or once a month? Any patient is going to share from their perspective so though it may seem a pwBPD is being manipulative, they are sharing what they feel and see. Not what you see. This can be and usually is a long term, fragile process.

EmapthyBoy it may be good to explore what you want from getting your sister help. Are you wanting to save her from her dysfunctional romantic (or other) relationships? Or, are you wanting to have a relationship with her? What is your relationship like now?

My mother told me just yesterday she told her H she needs a therapist. My mother exhibits a lot of waif traits and though I don't see her as being full blown BPD, her behaviors (catastrophic thinking, always seeing herself as a victim in the consequences of her own choices) are having an effect on her. This is promising though I doubt she will follow through, I'm grateful she sees something is amiss. She struggles with my boundaries, my frustration (when it gets the best of me) and with allowing my brother to take care of himself. I want a relationship so I plan to do my best to work on my side, it's all I can do.  

My brother on the other hand has stronger BPD traits. I'm not a professional so I can't say he's full blown BPD either. However, he meets the majority of the traits listed in the DSM. He wears a mask for the general public and only his family and ex-wives have seen behind it. I very much want to have a relationship with him and at the moment he is not reaching out. I reach out occasionally with little result these days. He has a therapist and though he has seen him a few times in the past 3 years, he is not currently seeing him that I know of. He does not see the need. My mother doesn't help with her enabling. I myself have also enabled him over the years and I try hard to stay out of that dynamic.

He thinks AA meetings, for his 4 year sobriety, are enough and of course these are not remotely scratching the surface. As hard as it is, I have to respect his path.

[Woolspinner2000]

I'd like to share with you about my uBPDm and her therapy. It isn't exactly a success story but yet it's not a failure either.

I know that early in my parents marriage they sought a T and began to attend. I have no idea how long they/she attended, but I know my grandparents also went for some of the meetings because there was a lot of conflict between in-laws and my parents. I don't think that time of T in her life was very helpful for her. There were many times throughout my growing up years that she would refer to some of the things that the T said though, so obviously she did retain portions.

In 2005 when my D1 graduated from highschool, my uBPDm came up to celebrate with us. I had been merrily going on through my life, raising our kids, and maintaining LC with her. She lived 1200 miles away so thankfully we did not see her often. However, when she arrived up north to visit for graduation, all that illusionary world of mine fell apart. She became unpredictable, angry, vengeful, and acted like a 2 year old child. The conflict was around the fact that my dad, her ex, and our D1's grandfather was there. I was shocked at her behavior, especially when she looked at me and said, "I don't know if I can trust you anymore."  I was so angry with her that I looked at her and said, "You've got a problem. You need help."

Of course she was ticked with me, but she returned home and booked an appt with the psychologist that another family member saw, blaming me the whole time. I was okay with the blame if she just got in there. This was at least 4 to 5 years before I even heard the term BPD.

I don't know how long she went, maybe 4 or 5 months? He was helpful to her, but when she stopped going, it was due to the fact (I'm trying to remember correctly) that she would have to dig through too many issues, and she didn't know how helpful he would be. So she gave up. 

The one thing that was very helpful to her was that he explained how she'd never had boundaries in her life. She liked that because it helped her to feel better about the reasons behind much of the conflict in her past. She told me that she was diagnosed with PTSD which she did have for sure. I don't think the therapist was skilled enough to see the BPD because she would not have shown that side to him.

A good therapist knows there is no forcing recovery. Trust is a big factor in a patient/therapist relationship and this can take a lot of time. We have to remember that a standard therapy session only lasts 50 minutes. And then there is the frequency, once or twice a week or once a month? Any patient is going to share from their perspective so though it may seem a pwBPD is being manipulative, they are sharing what they feel and see. Not what you see. This can be and usually is a long term, fragile process.

I think that Suzn makes some very appropriate points here. I know from my own T, it does indeed take a slow foundation built upon trust. Attending T must stem from the fact that there is a perceived need because without the need there is no motivation.

Let me share with you a truth that is shared by our local rescue mission during volunteer training. It is revolutionary if we grab a hold of it and step out of the way. "You can only help someone as much as they wish to help themselves." We become enablers if we provide the means when they do not wish to help themselves.

It is a valid point to consider the questions Suzn asked.  Understand that it isn't a bad thing to wish for the BPDs in our lives to get better, but they have to wish for it themselves. I wish you well in your search and journey.

Wools

[ct21218]

Yes, my partner received treatment and has improved dramatically.  He was diagnosed 20+ years ago and is also in recovery for drugs and alcohol.  He had a long period of sobriety, but acted out with gambling and overspending, which caused me to leave the marriage.  He again went away for inpatient treatment, relapsed on drugs and nearly died.  He truly hit bottom at that point and went back into 12 step recovery.  :)uring one of his inpatient stays, he received quite a bit of therapy to address the borderline issues and the problems we had in our relationship.  We are now back together and while we don't have a perfect relationship, things are dramatically different.  After his last relapse, his family cut him off financially, which in turn forced him to grow up a lot.  He has been sober over a year and holds a full time job and contributes to our household.  He was a very low bottom case and the family enabling had to end for him to take responsibility for his issues.  It took a lot of work for him to improve, but it didn't even start until he was literally homeless and almost dead.