Not sure I have what it takes...

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

So, there is my other thread about the night in the hotel.  Wife gets home supposedly to have kids help with garage project.  The boys that were going to help were sent over to my FIL house to help over there.  Nobody asked.  I didn't try to intervene.    Then my body had a breakdown, I am assuming from stress.  All the issues are known disabilities I have been working with for a while.  Sorry if TMI, but by bowels got out of control and I spent a long time on potty.  Followed by some back spasms.  I spent am in a hot tub right now trying to relax and get sorted out.    Wife came in room and said "I thought you wanted to work on the garage."  I didn't explain much as I didn't feel like it.  She asked if I needed something like Ibuprofen and I declined.  I am in no mood to explain.  She left and as I sit here, I wonder what I am doing with my choices that put me here.    Mentally I think I have the knowledge and will to press on.  For my body to make it my level of self care and boundary enforcement is going to have to skyrocket.  Things look bleak right now.  

FF

[formflier]

So, there is my other thread about the night in the hotel.  Wife gets home supposedly to have kids help with garage project.  The boys that were going to help were sent over to my FIL house to help over there.  Nobody asked.  I didn't try to intervene.    Then my body had a breakdown, I am assuming from stress.  All the issues are known disabilities I have been working with for a while.  Sorry if TMI, but by bowels got out of control and I spent a long time on potty.  Followed by some back spasms.  I spent am in a hot tub right now trying to relax and get sorted out.    Wife came in room and said "I thought you wanted to work on the garage."  I didn't explain much as I didn't feel like it.  She asked if I needed something like Ibuprofen and I declined.  I am in no mood to explain.  She left and as I sit here, I wonder what I am doing with my choices that put me here.    Mentally I think I have the knowledge and will to press on.  For my body to make it my level of self care and boundary enforcement is going to have to skyrocket.  Things look bleak right now.  

FF

[Verbena]

You've had the patience of a saint.  Don't beat yourself up too much that your body finally said enough and reacted this way. 

I'm curious how much your older children understand about your wife's mental illness.  It's very concerning that she does not hestitate to act out in front of them. 

Take care of yourself. 

[Fian]

Hang in there, the stress of a move will eventually pass.  You do need to communicate with your wife, about what you are going, though.  You can't fault her for not knowing if you don't tell her.

[formflier]

You are right.  I have told her I don't feel well.  I am hesitant to go into much detail.  She will work details into personal attacks.  She claims, at times, I am faking and I am really just lazy.  I no longer let her be aware of medical details or be around my doctors because of past arguments with them.  Yes, arguing with medical professionals in a exam room about what is wrong with me and what drugs are used to treat that.  Sigh.  So I minimize details.  

FF

[formflier]

So, I am obviously falling apart.  The data gatherer in me somehow got me to look at my cpap machine.  30 day average and 7 day average of just over four hours of therapy per night.  I knew I was off, but didn't think it was that bad.  Sigh,

FF

[Notwendy]

I am sorry you are not feeling well. Of course your health is a priority- and so do what is necessary to take care of your well being.

I have seen a similar reaction of someone with BPD to a spouse not feeling well. Disability in my father triggered this kind of reaction from my mother. When thinking about this from the point of view of someone with BPD one can imagine how this triggers fears in them - abandonment- and so they lash out when it is only appropriate to show concern.

Even in the most stable families- disability is an emotional challenge.

It is possible that this along with the stress of moving has caused her to disregulate. This doesn't excuse her behavior but it explains why she can not be emotionally supportive to you. In this case you need to look out for your physical well being.

[formflier]

Yep, she sprung through the door said she brought me spaghetti.  Then hopped out of room and semi slammed bedroom door.  I went out to get some food and asked for her to come to bedroom so we could talk.  I let her know my cpap numbers and began to talk about my other stuff.   She cut me off and told me to go to bed and informed me that after 11pm she will watch TV in basement.  No discussion, She walked out after she informed me.

[GaGrl]

Formalized, I will share with you that I spent significant time moving past anger at my DH's ex because of the residual health issues attributable to a 33 year relationship that stressed his body to permanent damage. My DH struggles with diverticulitis (exacerbated by stress), high blood pressure, tight muscle tension that triggers back spasms... .you get the picture.

This health situation is very, VERY real.

[formflier]

Night two in a hotel, sigh.  

FF

[flourdust]

Night two in a hotel... .sigh.

Oh no! More raging after she told you to go to bed?

[MaroonLiquid]

Night two in a hotel... .sigh.

FF

Sorry to hear that FF.  I will say a prayer for you and your health.

[formflier]

Now I am keyed up and can't sleep.  I was woken up by d2 screaming outside my bedroom door.  S15 was wrestling her.    Not sure of some events and time.  Pretty scary.  I ended up in basement staring across room at my wife.  I think the only words spoken was me saying I was woken up.  Apparently the TV room downstairs us going to be a pool table room.  They were installing a pool table.    The surreal thing is that it seemed everyone else looked away and ignored me.    It lasted a long time.  Didn't seem like good idea to risk another wakeup.  I am now keyed up, need sleep but can't seem to  

FF  

[Sunfl0wer]

Oh man, if you are not sleeping well, AND you CPAP is not getting you the O2 you need... .

Are you 'functioning' on insufficient O2 to the brain?

I have seen a woman who's O2 came off in the middle of the night.  She acted like she had full dementia, needed assistance for over 24 hrs due to cognitive impairments from lack of oxygen.  She needed help remembering how to brush her teeth and such... .was not good at all.

[sweetheart]

Hi ff,

It is not clear in your post why u spent another night in a hotel, as you said ur w was going to watch TV downstairs 

How does the situation with your toddler and teenager fit with what was happening, did you manage to sort this out for them ?

[Notwendy]

I hope you get some sleep.

I'm confused about the bedtimes in your home. I get that there are lots of kids, and kids can get rowdy. It's good that there is a basement for them to play in. Teens also don't go to bed early. But in general, there can be a family agreement for quiet time after 10 pm. ( or 9 pm) or whatever time you decide on. At this time, kids need to be in their rooms- reading, doing homework or sleeping. Two year olds can wake up and want their parents, but unless they are sick, a quick hug and being put back to bed gets them to learn that bedtime is bedtime ( you know that there can be an extinction burst with this, but persistence gets them in bed. With your sleeping condition, you can enlist an older teen to help get the child to learn that bedtime is bedtime.

I'm pretty certain you know this, and I understand if your wife undermines your rules, but bedtime is bedtime, and I don't think parents can function- get to work, take kids to school, without some kind of regular bedtime hour. I have a hard time comprehending why your wife can not go along with this and be quiet at night herself- the kids up all night would interrupt her sleep too.

A MC advised us that trying to talk about anything inflammatory or emotional when we are tired is not likely to go well. With your C PAP machine telling you that you have had too little sleep, you are not at your best. For the moment, do what you need to do to get some rest. Within your home though, you need to sleep as well, even if this means making a sleeping space for you- somewhere quiet- a bed in a room somewhere with a noise cancelling machine and where you know you can sleep.

I understand this is difficult. My mother is somewhat unpredictable and has woken me up at night. I chose not to stay with her when I visit and this is one reason. The other is that I feel I need some quiet time to myself. This is not easy when one is a stay at home parent with young kids around, and a wife with BPD. You've had a lot of changes and are tired. Perhaps a first step is to establish a bedtime routine for everyone and a way to get the sleep you need, if that is possible.

[formflier]

Hi ff, It is not clear in your post why u spent another night in a hotel, as you said ur w was going to watch TV downstairs    How does the situation with your toddler and teenager fit with what was happening, did you manage to sort this out for them ?

 I believe I was asleep for a little while, when the screaming, wrestling thing happened outside my door.  It's been a few years, before I started posting on bpdfamily that there have been sleep deprivation issues that resulted in me loosing track of time or otherwise having gaps in understanding.    That was scary to me.  I was concerned that another wakeup would result in something disastrous.  There was no indication from my wife that she would take any action to control noise in the house.  She just looked at me.  Basically, it was a limit on myself as I was unsure of my ability to be responsible for my actions.  At the same time I'm wondering about the pool table in the TV room, more stuff happening in the house that is my way or the highway from my wife.  It was a surreal moment.  

FF

[formflier]

  Notwendy, I'm confused about bedtimes in my house as well.  Everything you have said has been preached to us and agreed on by my wife and I in every MC and FT situation that we have been in.  As well as parenting classes at church.  I have a choice to try and force kids into bed at agreed on bedtime.  If wife says let them stay up to spend "quality time" with me there is no compromise.    Friday night wife took all kids out to eat.  S20 and D18 and I were specifically left out.  There was no option, she ordered them in the van.  Very loudly over a cell phone S15 (or possibly S13, but pretty sure it was S15) called S20 and said that "mommy said S20 and D18 are allowed to come if they want"  Same thing with a threat on Saturday morning (yesterday) to involve police if I tried to prevent her from taking kids to water park.  Called back to inform me she was bringing kids home in 30 minutes to help me with garage.  Showed up a couple hours later and kids immediately started focusing on eating and then older boys were obviously getting ready to go somewhere.  I said I didn't understand what was going on and they said they were told to go over and do something in FIL garage or something like that.  That is when my body let loose on me.  Understand that there are many times when my wife and I converse like normal people.  She was the one saying this was the perfect house and pushing to purchase it because of the ability to separate functions (needs) in the house.  I was pleased with this and thought it progress.  She was the one that undid the plan.   So, as you can see, we planned and agreed on a place in the house where I can get my sleep needs met.    My wife doesn't follow agreements with any sort of regularity.    I got a few hours sleep last night.  More spasms.  I seem functional at the moment, but would not at all say clearheaded.  

FF  

[formflier]

  We are one week into the school routine in the new location.  So, my comments about school bedtimes are really more historical.  It's been years since we have written down family rules about bedtimes or other routines (exception is the infamous chore chart).  We used to write everything down, based on some marriage classes and parenting classes at church.  You guys can fill in the blanks as to why she refuses to feel "controlled" by what is written down.  I've seen her demand kids be in the by by 730 on school nights and seen it regularly happen as late as 930 to 10pm.  This would be for a kindergartner up.    The only consistency is the inconsistency.  

FF

[chump]

Hi FF,

I just wanted to post a quick note of support. Wow buddy, it sounds incredibly difficult right now. I can't even imagine how hard this must be for you, like living in a psychological war zone. The most basic building blocks of life, sleep, health, a little peace, you've had to retreat to a hotel to get the last two nights. And 8 kids counting on you to somehow hold it all together. You are one of the true heroes of the "staying" board, and we're all rooting for you.

Chump

[formflier]

  I don't think I'm "missing" anything.  I post lots of details because sometimes people point out something I have missed.  There could be a million reasons why she has dysregulated.  The first "blip" on the radar was a dust up earlier in the week about me being able to sleep due to TV.  I asked her to go downstairs, she said "No I can't do that, "  I was able to get back to sleep.  Then there was a text from her about going to a counselor.    She texted about wanting to talk.  I was available, we talked, she said she was good.  It was all about unpacking and storage project I was working on.  Friday morning (2 days ago) I surprised her in the morning with her car in the garage.  Storage project was done night before.  She had gone to sleep early me S20, and D18 finish the project and put in the car.  She left for work on Friday morning seeming happy.  We had a long good stretch, things seemed to be generally moving in right direction.  She comes home, finds out about a lunch at IHOP and let loose.  My gut says she was looking for a reason.  That's as much big picture as I have.  

FF

[flourdust]

Is this worse/more frequent/more hair-trigger chaos than you were used to before the move? As I posted earlier, my wife's self-control degrades when stressed (not just situational stress like being stuck in traffic but the stress caused by changing life circumstances, like moves and job losses).

What I'm hearing of your situation sounds like added life stress has caused her flash point to drop, and she is now acting out in a lot of different ways in response to triggers that previously wouldn't have set her off.

And don't downplay the effects of stress on the kids and (obviously) yourself.

My first recommendation would be to try, TRY to view this as a temporary setback that isn't really avoidable. If you can manage to be flexible and calm and try to help the kids to establish a new routine, you might be able to get to a more stable family situation in a month or so. You seem to me like someone who has worked hard to find rules (spoken or unspoken) that work for you to keep your family life manageable. Many of those rules have gone out the window with the move. Some may come back, but some may have to be permanently replaced. Trying to reset to how your family functioned a few months ago might not be possible.

Good luck  -- and by all means, do pay attention to your health!

[sweetheart]

Thanks for expanding on the information ff.

What I can hear and what is conveyed sounds incredibly chaotic, there are so many factors and individuals converging all at odds with each other I'm not surprised your insides gave out on you.

I remember when we moved three years ago, there was only me, h and son then 4yrs. We moved to a 2 up 2 down house, moved from a very large apartment that we had lived in for 6yrs. I'm not good with change, I start to feel anxious trying to control the variables forsee problems by being proactive. Anyway nothing I did made any difference to the chaos that ensued on moving, it was what brought me here.

I thought I had factored everything in, but no amount of factoring helped my h cope with the changes.

What can you do that helps you most now today and over the short-term given that you are feeling very stressed?

When did you last feel like this and what helped you manage then, what do you need?

What I'm also aware of is when you go stay at a hotel, that then leaves your w on her own with all the children, in a new house, most probably increasing her stress and ability to then function or cope effectively. Thus increasing the potential for dysregulated behaviour the following day.

Children, even teenagers will need to feel reassured that there is at least one parent available to meet their needs and help them navigate all the new changes. When the chips are down they know you are the parent that will cope best. What are the alternatives to you leaving the house?

[Notwendy]

FF, I understand and it is difficult.

Growing up, we had natural routines, because by a certain age, we parented ourselves, but there were not nearly as many kids as in your house. Still, we went to bed, got up at regular times because we had school, and dad had work.

But when we came home from school in the afternoon, we had no idea what to expect, what kind of mood mom would be in, when, if there was any meals, what else would be happening.

After dad retired, it didn't seem like there was any sense of routine for my parents. There were no mealtimes- each just ate what they wanted when they wanted and not necessarily together. They went to bed when they wanted ( not a problem since we were grown and so they had a choice of where to sleep). My visits involved me planning meals, cooking, cleaning up, getting groceries, since I am used to a routine, and so is my family. Although this could be explained by my parents being elderly, I think it was always that way for them. I think it was when we kids and dad had routines that there was any sense of routine in the house.

Just get yourself rested and well. This is the first priority.

I do get what Sweetheart is saying. Once we were teens, if mom dysregulated, Dad left the house to cool off. In many ways, this was the right thing for him to do. He had to work the next day, and he didn't want to escalate the situation. Yet, this left us alone with her.

Although my situation is thankfully different from this, this is something that fueled my WOE. We used to argue at night and it upset the kids. WOE was not a good solution, but it was the only one I knew from my own FOO.

You may be the most stable of the parents, but as they say on airplanes, put your oxygen mask on first. You can only be as good to your kids as you are physically and mentally able to.

[Daniell85]

I am guessing she is decompressing from the strain of the move and as she starts to relax, a lot of general upset she has inside her is coming out.

From the other side, this is obviously it's putting a lot on you and undermining your capacity. She isn't the only one who has had a big move, or felt stress from it. All of you have. Her BPD has her "Queen" going issuing edicts and commands and being ugly when she meets some resistance.

I intensely dislike the deliberate undermining of you with the kids. It's a bit of a trigger for me. I have a 22 year old son, who due to the smearing of me by his father, won't even acknowledge my existence at this point. It is absolutely the most painful experience of my life and I literally don't know how to repair that core relationship.

All of this being said, your situation and your wife's behavior... .( and what is with putting a pool table in the TV/cinema room. Did you already have a pool table prior to this?) what it seems to come down to is what steps do you need to take in order to cope with all of the antics as everyone settles down ( hopefully!) and your wife keys down the war of attrition?

Because I think you have been immensely "good" in handling this life with your wife. And exhaustion absolutely leads to feelings of not being able to do much at all after a certain point.

As for her saying no TV in family room after 11PM, I guess she is fully aware of her actions and how they are effecting everyone. Sometimes people really are totally knowing what they are doing, how it is effecting others, just for whatever reason... ( any BPD reason) they are not able or in the mindset of acting appropriately. I have that problem sometimes and it aggravates me probably almost as much as I am aggravating other people ( like my mother, who I am having big challenges with right now)

Hope you get some very needed rest today. 

[formflier]

  My guess is the "crisis" is over.  There is a caring, light, easy to talk to wife at home this morning.  She asked if I came home in the middle of the night and I said yes.  She asked why and it sounded like genuine concern.  I told her about my spasms and that I worked them out in our tub.  Note:  One of the great features of this house is an awesome tub/hot tub thing.  It's been 3 houses since we had this.  We had good conversation.  Saw S20 off on his road trip to college and will be taking D18 to airport this afternoon again to fly back to college.  We have discussed and planned on, but not explicitly agreed to getting a craigslist desk today.  She said that she would like to get that on the way to airport and if that was ok.  I agreed.  So,

FF

[Daniell85]

  glad it is calmer

[Notwendy]

I'm glad it is calmer for you now. However you know this is a pattern and is likely to repeat when she feels upset.

First get some rest, but I think it is tempting to forget these episodes when things are calm. In fact, I think that's what the person with BPD prefers - to erase what happened. It may even be impossible and not likely to go well to bring them up.

During this time you may wish to consider a possible solution to getting the sleep you need. Your family may never have a set bedtime and people will make noise all night if they want. How can you establish a way to sleep when you need to? It might mean adding on a sound proof locked room somewhere if that's what it takes.

[Grey Kitty]

Sorry to hear how things went ... .And glad it's mostly blown over.

First thought. There is one and only one bedtime you control and that is yours.

I'm not a parent and I've got no idea how to coparent with somebody so inconsistent. Especially because kids do figure out how to play one parent against the other. So setting and holding kids bedtimes may not be something you can solve.

[MaroonLiquid]

Glad to hear things are calmer FF.

[waverider]

Just a though on nons being sick triggering pwBPD.

When you are feeling sick, or off, you cant give best attention to pwBPD, this then can trigger abandonment (attention competition) reactions. The result can be over attention (to win you back) or turning on you (abandoning you first to regain control). It can show in passive agressive acts and going back on promises (you dont deserve them any more).

Either way things rarely carry on as normal. Throw in a move and there is latent instabilty waiting to be triggered. There is to much affecting the status quo

[formflier]

  Yeah, I think it is mostly blown over.  Observation for notwendy and others to think on.  She really does want to talk.  She is scared to death to talk to me (IMO) when I am awake, focused and ready to have a conversation.  Here is how I deduce that.  During the dysregulation, in front of the kids, I asked several times, during several of the "episodeds" to go have a private conversation.  Once she asked why, I said because the things we were discussing were appropriate for parents to discuss and were inappropriate for kids to hear.  We both no this from multiple counseling and parenting classes, I didn't remind her of that.  Just said my truth.  Her response was that I "always" get her alone and manipulate her to get what I want.  I didn't engage on that point.  Yesterday was a great day.  Last night we were relaxed, sex, easy conversation about nothing in particular, just talking stuff.  We are laying in bed together drifting off to sleep.  I had mask and splints on and was pretty much gone she says.  "Listen, we've got time now to talk"   (I'm guessing it was around 11pm)  .  I mumbled, "honey, I'm in no shape to get into anything deep"  She started to talk and sharing what she was an wasn't ok with.  I mumbled again that I was not going to be able to process anything she said, that my responses would likely not make sense and really needed to drift off to sleep.  She said:  "Fine then, you can just lay there and sleep"  She launches into it.  I took off my mask and left the room for 5 minutes.  She hollered after me that it was nothing to get upset over.  I cam back 5 minutes later, put mask on and drifted off to sleep.  There was a word or two exchanged such as goodnight and that kind of stuff.  At some point in there I had assured her I would be available in the morning for a long or short talk.  We were awake together for about 2.5 hours before she left.  Many times I went into the room with her, had  light conversation, focused on her, hung out for a bit.  With about an hour to go I gave her a hug and said I would be available to talk after I got the kids on the bus.  She looked at me and said OK or something like that.  With 30 minutes to go until the normal time she leaves we were sitting at the table.  I had fresh coffee, there was some light conversation.   I reached and held her hand for a bit, commented about a cut on her hand.  Looked at her.  It was a nice moment.  Comeing up on 15 minutes to go she gets up and starts hurrying about, but doesn't seem to be doing anything.  Lunch and other stuff is already ready.    I went up to her, gave her a light touch on arm and said I'm ready to talk if there is stuff you would like to discuss.  "Oh, honey, I've got to get going" and left 15 minutes early.  Normal departure, nice hug, she seemed to linger a bit with me at the door.  Then a flurry of random admin tasks were handled as she drove to work and called me about various things.  Instrument for a kid, paying pre school bill, things like that.  Thoughts on my theory?  Any idea of a healthy response to this.  

FF

[Fian]

I imagine that it would be very frustrating to be emotionally upset and your partner is talking to you calmly.  You aren't in control and you know that they are.  You have lost the argument before you even begin.

In regards to discussing it just before she goes to work, I don't know that I would want to have a difficult discussion just before going to work.  The last thing I would want is a big fight, and then rush off to work.  So I can understand her wanting to avoid the discussion then.

[babyducks]

Hi formflier

  She really does want to talk.  She is scared to death to talk to me (IMO) when I am awake, focused and ready to have a conversation.

Her response was that I "always" get her alone and manipulate her to get what I want.  I didn't engage on that point.

These are the two things I noticed in your post.   I can relate.   In some ways I think your story mirrors mine in that from what you describe; you and your wife went from a very dysfunctional communication pattern to a less volatile one by using the some of skills and tools here.  Me too.

What has been more challenging for my partner and I was to develop a communication pattern/style that allowed for the full expression of both of our ideas.

I stole this from an old post of Skip's, thank you Skip.

Intimacy is about being emotionally close to your partner, about being able to let your guard down, and let him or her know how you really feel. Intimacy is also about being able to accept and share in your partner's feelings, about being there when he/she wants to let their defenses down.

Creating an emotional intimacy via communication comes with some real challenges when you are dealing with some one who is emotionally sensitive and reactive.  I had to throw a bunch of normally accepted ideas out of the window.  One of the ideas that went out of the window early on is long deep heartfelt conversations.   My partner can't handle them.   5 to 10 minutes tops.   

FWIW I think you are 100% correct that your wife does want to talk to you, finds it very difficult to do, and both instinctively and deliberately picks situations where she feels more comfortable and more in control. From what you have been describing for a while, the communication pattern that has developed has been unproductive and frustrating for both of you.   Perhaps it's time to throw that out and try a different approach?

Over time my partner and I have been able to establish a manner of communicating that works for us about 40 to 50% of the time.   I'm hopeful we can build on that.   From my side of the street it required a lot of empathic listening.   and Validation.   One of the things I have learned is that my partner's perspectives, while fairly unique where not immediately wrong.   In fact I would go so far as to say her heighten sensitivity to things often gave her insights to nuances that I would not have picked up on left to my own devices.   Often times things were expressed to me in ways that were unpalatable.   Not responding, not engaging while I sorted through that stuff was one tool in the tool box.   In the long run it couldn't be the only tool in the box.   

What I have come to believe is true for me, is that being in a relationship with a pwBPD that is continuing to struggle to go from surviving to thriving is a lot like peeling an onion.   Just when I think I have got it figured out and have reached a plateau, there is another level to work on.   It's been an interesting experience.

My suspicion is that there is a reason she afraid to have a conversation with you when you are awake and focused and ready.   I would wonder what that reason is.

I would also suspect that the contest of wills, who gets what they want, is the bigger picture to focus on.   Compromise can be difficult.   One small compromise can be scary for both of us.   Feels very risky.   

my two cents.

'ducks

[formflier]

  Ducks, I sorta did that on Saturday, tried a new way.    It was in front of the kids and what I learned was that she doesn't want to work all week and work all weekend.  How she said it was that she she works full time I get no say in what happens on the weekend.  (I would guess this is what you would describe as unpalatable).  I didn't debate that point, tried to listen.  Also, one reason that I chose to listen and stay in the room was that there was no name calling and the level of energy was dialed back a bit.  Also, I really didn't know What the heck she was thinking so I figured as a practical matter I should try and figure that out before she drug the kids off to water park.  This was after she threatened to involve police if I tried to stop her from taking kids to water park.    Fian, Totally agree that before work is not the best time.  I was clear the night before and this morning that it was an offer.  I was there.  I will make sure and be present for her when she gets home and a few other times this evening.  But I'm not going to  pester her or make a big deal about it.  My guess is that around 9pm or so I'm going to be too tired to do much effective processing.  Note:  I got a good nights sleep last evening.  Outlook is much better today.  If I can put together a few more nights like that, I should be back to just about bulletproof.  

FF

[formflier]

  One thought as I look back on this.  I was lulled into believing the good behavior would last.  I let that good feeling allow my sleep to slide a bit.  Plus, setting up new routines.  This put me very close to the edge.  Didn't take much to push me over the edge.  If I had been "bulletproof" do I still think I would have went to hotels.  It's likely.  Especially the first night.  If I was bulletproof on second night I would have likely been able to calm a bit quicker and would have been more confident about my ability to stay calm and not make a scene.  

FF

[babyducks]

How she said it was that she she works full time I get no say in what happens on the weekend.  (I would guess this is what you would describe as unpalatable).  I didn't debate that point, tried to listen.

Interesting.   I am not sure who the "I" is here, you or your wife.  I agree completely that her need to have more recreation after a full work week could have been expressed in a way that was both clearer and less negative.   But, as we all know pwBPD have poor communication skills.

with 20/20 hindsight what would a validation look like around this ?

[formflier]

  To clarify:  My wife was the one saying that she she works she gets to make all the decisions.  In other conversations she claims that when I was working and she was not that she let me make all the decisions.  Ummm, I don't remember that part of our marriage, Put this in the BPD converter and I think she is saying I am lazy and she is not.  She has to do everything and I do nothing, blah blah blah.  For those reading this:  I don't have an executive job right now.  I have been doing rideshare (uber) extensively, managing family properties (rentals and such), doing some handyman work, selling items on craigslist, the list could go on.    Some jade there, just in case people get the wrong idea.  Also, if I really broke it down, it is likely that my activities bring in more money than her teaching job.  I know, I know, I'm not going to make that point to her.  She is "used to" me having a 6 figure executive job.    Let me think on the validation and get back to you on that.  

FF

[Jessica84]

Formflier - I had to read several threads to catch up. All I can say is I am so sorry you've been dealing with all this! You are my inspiration as the Great BPD Whisperer! You are, for the most part, solid and bulletproof. My guess is all the changes at once are overwhelming her - new location, new job, different schedules, 2 kids going to college, inconsistent bedtimes. That would be pretty stressful on anyone.

Hang in there! I'm glad things have calmed down and you're able to sleep again. I think it might take some gentle probing questions to draw out of her what's bothering her most, then apply the tools to validate and start prioritizing them in some kind of order.

[waverider]

To clarify:  My wife was the one saying that she she works she gets to make all the decisions.

In other conversations she claims that when I was working and she was not that she let me make all the decisions.

Ummm... .I don't remember that part of our marriage... .

Put this in the BPD converter and I think she is saying I am lazy and she is not.  She has to do everything and I do nothing... .blah blah blah.

For those reading this:  I don't have an executive job right now.  I have been doing rideshare (uber) extensively, managing family properties (rentals and such), doing some handyman work, selling items on craigslist... .the list could go on.  

Some jade there, just in case people get the wrong idea.  Also, if I really broke it down, it is likely that my activities bring in more money than her teaching job.  I know... .I know... .I'm not going to make that point to her.

She is "used to" me having a 6 figure executive job.  

I have been through this in the past, its not just a BPD perception though black and white thinking can reinforce it. Bottom line is it is about perception. Its not a "proper job" with a "proper title"... This is reinforced by society which tends to tag someones profession on to their name like its part of it... eg FF Pilot, FF Realtor, FF Market Research Executive. currently your title would be FF ? bitzer?.

You were FF Pilot, that gave her bragging rights, now when someone asks what does hubby do she gets embarrassed. It is not about you it is about how it affects her status.

Doesn't matter how productive you are, you can't be pidgeon holed so you are in the grey zone and prime for the get a proper job so i know what to call you accusation. I am the same.

[Daniell85]

My ex husband was a house painter. I have 4 undergraduate degree and 2 masters degrees.

If he was introduced somewhere, and people said, oh what do you do, he just said he was a painter. They assumed art, and were very impressed.

We thought it was funny.

I want to validate to you that you have shown immense patience and strength, too. I am just not a BPD whisperer. It's not coming to me easily.

Maybe you could have some business cards made to reflect broadly your management and consultant skills. Make it pretty so she has something to pass around. Probably leaving BPD whisperer off of it would be wise... .

[waverider]

If he was introduced somewhere, and people said, oh what do you do, he just said he was a painter. They assumed art, and were very impressed.

We thought it was funny.

There was a time when a shelf stacker was not called a logistics resupply consultant. Everyone seems to be a consultant or manager these days, anything to sound more exotic than reality. A natural mineral resource extraction specialist=miner

[Notwendy]

WW described my mother. I don't think she did anything productive that I knew of. It was expected for women to be housewives in her era but I didn't see her do domestic thing either. One of the mysteries we wondered about was what did she actually do all day when we were at school because we didn't see anything.

My father had a prestigious career and while it was ok for me, the black child, to attend state u. White child didn't have a choice but to go to a college with bragging rights. I actually achieved and had a career but my later decision to be a stay at home mother was met with disdain from her. Unlike her, I actually did the work of running a home and raising kids.


My H has his own job. He didn't seem to gain from my career- instead made it hard for me to work and raise kids because he didn't help at all.  If I asked for his help - like FF's wife- he pulled status because he earned more money than I did. My income was smaller than his so he felt my job was negligible even though I enjoyed it.

Ultimately I didn't give a hoot what he, my mother, or society thought about my "job" title. I was feeling burned out emotionally from doing both work and home with an emotionally unsupportive spouse. I was concerned that my kids were not getting what they needed from either parent as I was so burned out. We could make it on his income, had agreed that I could give my kids my full attention and so that's what I did.

I can watch my mother get triggered in an instant if my kids discuss a college they might be interested in that she doesn't think is prestigious enough.  I watched all the color go out of her face because she didn't like the name of one of their friends (never even met the friend). If she had a stronger sense of self she would not feel so vulnerable to choices like this.

[Cole]

Could the whole episode be attributed to her feeling like she is doing everything and you are not contributing? I have read enough of your posts to know this is NOT how it really is, but it could be her perception.

Last year at this time, my wife was working 32 hours a week at a low level administrative position. I worked 50+ hours a week at a high level executive position and brought in 6 times as much as she did. In her mind, she worked just as hard as I did and expected me to do the majority of the housework and child rearing because she had a job. And I did, because she was not able to work all day then come home and deal with being a mom. It was too much for her. What I have learned is that a 40 hour work week to a non feels like an 80 hour work week to a pwBPD. They just cannot handle the workload we can without becoming overwhelmed. And instead of admitting their shortcomings, they take it out on us.

So, maybe your wife's dysreg was triggered by her feeling overwhelmed? Or maybe even scared about finances? 

And yes, good idea not bringing up that you are bringing in as much or more than she is. This would just lead to her feeling guilty or inadequate. She probably would not admit that was the issue, but it would be.

You are under employed right now and looking for a new executive level position. Been there myself. But, instead of sitting on the couch whining like some spoon-fed wuss, you are doing what you can to take care of your family until the right position comes along. Your job title for now is "Real Man".     

Glad you got some sleep. Take care of yourself.   

   

[formflier]

  Two good nights sleep in a row!      I think Cole's perception is generally right.    Long time ago I would try to reason with her and it would go from "

FF does nothing" to "Well I know

FF does this BUT, "  Wasted energy.  Another day of not talking about issues.  I was present a couple times last night for her and I senses avoidance on her part.  I didn't push.  Conversation was light.  This morning I got a google docs of her "daily" priorities for me and special projects in order of priority.  While there is nothing nice about the list.  No please or asking, there is also nothing horrid or demanding.  It's just a list.  The list seems reasonable.  No chance I can get  it all done today and no chance of getting all the daily things done.  My reaction is that this is a positive step.  Scratch that, I could get all the daily chores done, but that would be about it.  So, I will work on things on my list, and her list.   

FF

[empath]

I've been told by my h that it is incredibly stressful for him to work a full-time job.  From what he describes,  he is constantly afraid that they might fire or lay him off. I was sick a few weeks ago - in bed for a couple of days,  and h told me that he was worried that I might not be able to continue working because of that.

Another thing to consider, my h has a hard time believing that anything happens if he doesn't see it happening.  So I make sure that I am doing something when he comes in.

[formflier]

  Keep this thread going.  Very helpful to me.  I broke out Babyducks validation challenge and made a new thread.  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=288878.0  I challenge everyone to read that thread and read (or reread) the validation lesson.  

FF

[Cat Familiar]

Another thing to consider, my h has a hard time believing that anything happens if he doesn't see it happening.  So I make sure that I am doing something when he comes in.

Yes, my husband seems totally oblivious to all it takes to keep a household and a ranch operating. He stays inside, reading and watching TV--he's retired. I don't say anything about his lack of participation in things because he provides the money to keep everything going, now that I've exhausted my capital building our house.

He will make snarky comments about me always being online, so I try not to be when he's around. Somehow he completely ignores all I do around here, which is a lot. I keep up to date with the news online and read and post here for my mental health.

Right now, he's at the hospital, taking tests because his blood pressure has skyrocketed. For years, I told him to cut back on his drinking and to get some exercise. (He considers that "shaming." I quit doing that when I learned about BPD, but now his doctor has said everything that I had been saying.

[formflier]

  Uggg, the always online complaint.    I supposedly "always" waste my time watching youtube.  I did spend considerable time watching snippets of different attic organization projects before doing ours here.  Currently watching videos on how to best organize and setup a laundry/utility area.  And yes, I enjoy that.  But, I really don't consider it "goofing off".  Back when she had access to my computer she would point to the amount of time I would spend on different webpages and such.  She is a one page at a time person.  I just counted and right now I have 6 pages up on regular chrom and 3 different pages of bpdfamily up on incognito.  That's just the way I work/use online.  Sigh,

FF

[Cat Familiar]

She is a one page at a time person. That's hilarious! That's just like my husband. He thinks there's something wrong with me (in fact, it disgusts him) because I have several pages, and several tabs open at a time. All the better to quickly cover up bpdfamily.

[formflier]

  Cat Familiar, I'm struck sometimes by the similarities of our stories.  I would much rather be on a ranch.  But that is a different story.  Another difference is that my wife did give the farm wife thing all she had.  She would get out there and work and lead on all kinds of chores.  I still deployed a lot during this time, so it was up to her and the olders to lead the rest of the crew.  I claim to be farm raised.  In reality I spent summers on family hog farm and during school year did quite a bit of helping out locally but during the school year I was 8 hours or so from hog farm.  But longed to be back there.  Wife really had no background in farming, but again, gave it everything she had and was a good farm wife.  However, she was not really cut out for it.  Someone else posted about a 40 our "non" week seeming like 80 hours to a pwBPD.  I could totally see this in my wife.  Translate that into farm living and you can see how farms and BPD don't match up.  Look, check out the issues now.  My life likes to veg out in front of the TV.  Farm wives don't do much of that, Anyway, parting funny story about bullheaded BPD traits running amok on a farm:    We were successful dairy goat guys (amongst other things) for many years.  My wife got it in her head, that she was going to get a cow, but would get a miniature so it would be more manageable.  I was against it, but was deployed, I'm sure I invalidated the crap out of her trying to "talk her out of it".  She pretty much told me to eff off and she was going to get whatever animals she wanted.  (sound like the water park to anyone?)  Well, she apparently went raging around the farm community until she found someone to sell her a "miniature" cow.  She got it like the day before I flew home from a small deployment.    She was very quiet, I knew something bad had gone down.  Well, she takes me to the barn and there is a full size Jersey in there.  Sure, maybe it was a smaller Jersey, but it was a full size cow.    We had set up the barn for goats and horses,    Plus, I knew enough about cows that I knew I had to keep the milk flowing.  So, we did, throughout the cold winter (up by Canadian border).  That sucked, Then to be able to sell it for some sort of value (she got snookered on the purchase $$) I had a buddy of mine get some high quality bull semen (I jokingly referred to him as a bull spooge salesman, he sold a lot of it).  And I made sure that my wife was out at the barn to help us "do the deed".  Likely that sealed the deal that she didn't want to be a farm wife anymore,   We sold the cow and that may have been the happiest day on my farm I ever had, .when she got trailered away.  

FF

[Notwendy]

I can relate to the if it isn't visible, it wasn't done idea. Being home with small children can mean that, at the end of the day, several meals/snacks were fed, but they are all gone, diapers changed- but gone. Spending a couple of hours at the pediatrician because someone had an ear ache- invisible, stories read, trips to park, later driving kids to school, teacher conferences. None of this visible and none with a paycheck. My H would come home late many nights, and with kids in bed would have no visible sign of any of it.

I also get the "Always ONLINE" comments. My H will tell me that he values what I do for the family and then he can say things like "you are always online".  I used to try to explain what I do, JADE, to try to get him to see it, but that would result in him diminishing my contribution " It isn't that big a deal to cook dinner". I decided that I can not change someone else's perception of my world. I really don't know how he perceives what I do. I know what it is, and that has to be enough for me.

[Daniell85]

I am a 3 different browsers 20 pages open person.

I have NO empathy for one pagers. Control issues there! and very troublesome people 

[Cole]

She was very quiet, I knew something bad had gone down.  Well, she takes me to the barn and there is a full size Jersey in there.  Sure, maybe it was a smaller Jersey, but it was a full size cow. 

FF

FF, you made my day with the miniature cow story. That one belongs in Readers Digest, not on bpdfamily.

I dodged that bullet with alpacas a couple years ago. W figured we could be rich selling alpaca wool. No matter what I said, she just became more obstinate that she was going to do it. Fortunately, she became enamored with antique glassware and decided to collect that instead.  

pwBPD tend to get obsessive ideas in their head. Once they do, sometimes all you can do is grab a bag of popcorn, sit back, and watch.    

[waverider]

Multiple pages open to a pwBPD rings warning bells of hiding something as it feels like hiding one book inside another.

Dont underestimate the time consumed contributed to forums like this. Even though in reality it is worth its weight in gold for your RS. I know tasks have often not been done because I have been engrossed in replies here.

FF Re lists of this to do, If you are on home duties why is your wife making lists of things to do, couldn't you be in charge of that? As long as she is writing lists she will ultimately feel in charge, hence responsible, therefore setting you up for failure as she will only see what you haven't done. ie 100% or nothing. The mindset is if they arrange for someone to do something then they have done it. If 10% is still not done then the problem is still there hence you haven't fixed it.

[empath]

WR has a good point. I don't think the to do list is a good idea; it gives her the ability to control you, almost like a child, not like an adult partner. (it's one of the behaviors that can be abused easily)

[formflier]

  Yeah, regarding lists.  I don't encourage it for her at all.    We have different views about plans.  For me a plan is a reference point, for her, just like WR said.  She said it, it should be done.  In my world, and I think with most Naval Aviators, you are always thinking about am I early, or late etc etc.  As you are usually adjusting to make a time on target or some other thing.  And, if you are going to be late or early, probably should let somebody know.  But, in my world, the plan is what is NOT going to happen.  If something goes according to plan, I get suspicious, I've missed something.     Anyway, I will use her list a reference point, she will feel about it, how she feels about it.  2nd point:  Funny thing about life with a pwBPD, you get lots of great stories.  I hadn't thought about that cow for eons, until something about Cat Familiars post got me to thinking about chores on the farm, Hey, anyone want me to explain how we got the cow pregnant?      

FF

[Fian]

Sure, FF, go ahead.   

[Cole]

FF,

Can we assume you did not meet Mrs. FF on farmersonly.com?

And yes, life with a pwBPD generates plenty of stories. I could sell things that have happened here to both the Twilight Zone and Seinfeld.

[Cat Familiar]

Likely that sealed the deal that she didn't want to be a farm wife anymore... .

FF, you're naughty!

I've also enjoyed my husband's discomfort with "country life." A few months ago, one of our sheep was bitten on the nose by a rattlesnake. I saw her swollen nose the night before as I was locking up the sheep and goats for the night. Since she was eating, and otherwise seemed normal, I assumed she was stung by ground dwelling bees. She was a very skittish sheep and it was dark and there was no way I could easily catch her in the dark, so I planned to give her Benadryl in the morning if the swelling was still there. Instead, I found her dead, with the telltale bite mark of a large snake.

At about 200 pounds, she outweighed me by about 85 pounds, so I asked my husband to help me drag her to a place where I could bury her. Actually I had set up a come-along and was planning on doing it myself, when he got really offended that I hadn't asked his help, so I let him orchestrate the removal of her body, which wasn't easy as we had to drag her uphill. (He was too impatient to have me set up the come-along at various trees along the way.)

When we dropped her in the pre-dug hole (I had an elderly goat that I had planned on burying there), I made sure he saw me cut open her two stomachs, knowing that we'd likely get a lot of rain with the coming El Nino (still waiting for that... .). I explained that we didn't want to deal with "bloat and float" later. (I had heard about someone's horse that reemerged from a shallow grave after a tremendous downpour.)

The country gal in me had an internal laugh at my city boy husband. He rightfully knew what he was getting into with me at the beginning when we first were dating. One night, as we were headed to a restaurant, deer were crossing the road and the car in front of us didn't slow down and plowed into a big buck. I told my then-boyfriend to stop the car. I got out, wearing my long black dress, and approached the buck, which was writhing in pain. The car that hit him had driven off, leaving broken headlight pieces in the road. I found a boulder and proceeded to hit the deer in the head until I had killed him. My sweetheart watched openmouthed. That should have been a clue who he was getting involved with.

[formflier]

Sure,

FF, go ahead.   

 https://youtu.be/2yvXowLh-Pg  Ummm, well, our cow moved around a lot more than this one.  So I was in charge of holding her up against a fence panel.   I made sure wife got to help with all the excitement, Somehow, I think the terms of service of bpdfamily may get updated after this post,  

FF

[waverider]

I found a boulder and proceeded to hit the deer in the head until I had killed him. My sweetheart watched openmouthed. That should have been a clue who he was getting involved with.

maybe if you picked up a boulder once in a while he may behave himself 

[Cat Familiar]

Good idea! 

[Mutt]

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