Good or bad?

[MapleBob]

I definitely wouldn't put out any ultimatums unless you want things to get worse.

I'm going to repeat myself here because some things bear repeating:

I think that you should wait until Thursday or Friday to contact her to confirm the date on Saturday. Then go and have a really great date with her. See what happens after that.

You're actually one of the lucky ones here who hasn't been completely pushed away, or outright dumped. You have a chance to work on your relationship IN the relationship. I think you'll get more traction here by keeping it simple. If you want to bring up talk about your relationship, make it about her for right now: "Is there anything I can do for you? I can't do much about my cat allergy, but I can open up more/be less quiet/etc." Other than that your value right now is in keeping scarce and making sure to wow her when you're communicating or hanging out.

Yes, she's acting very distant, very far away, and very disrespectful - I totally feel that, and it's enough to drive a person nuts. Don't let it.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Davy]

Thank you for keeping my morale up.

I'm really happy I found this place. I would have been totaly lost without your support

You are absolutely right. I still have a chance and should listen to you guys if I want this relationship to work (and I do)

You have no idea how much your support and guidance mean to me.

I'm just kind off a mess lately. I'm having a lot off trouble sleeping and that is making it hard for me to think clearly

[MapleBob]

I think we all remember being where you are ... .And some of us still visit there once in a while!

[Davy]

Not really sure what is going on with me. My emotions are all over the place.

Yesterday I had a really bad day, felt completely depressed. Almost started crying a couple off times (at work no less)

And today I feel really strong. Feel like I learned a lot and am ready to make this work. Also very excited about the date tomorrow.

Hopefully I can hang on to this feeling at our date and I'm confident it will go well

Later today I'm gonna text her to confirm the date and time so hoping it gets a positive reply. Have not had contact for almost 5 days.

Also have an apointment with my therapist today and am actualy looking forward to that as well

[Davy]

I texted her "Shall I come over to your house at 5pm tomorrow and go out to dinner?

She replied "I'd rather not. I'm feeling very bad. It was a ruf week at work and in my head. So it will depend on how I feel tomorrow. Why dont you come over for cofee in the evening?

I hope you understand?"

I have not replied yet. How do you guys think I schould reply?

I was thinking: Ofcourse I understand. If there is anything I can do I'm here for you. What time would you like me to come over tomorrow?

Would that be good?

[MapleBob]

I have not replied yet. How do you guys think I schould reply?

I was thinking: Ofcourse I understand. If there is anything I can do I'm here for you. What time would you like me to come over tomorrow?

Would that be good?

That's great! Thumbs up.

[Lou12]

Thumbs up Davy

[Davy]

It is saturdaynoon here. Still have not heard anything back from her.

Hoping she will ask me to come over later today.

Anyway she is in total control and I intend to leave it that way for now. I'm not texting anything

I have done all I can. For now I can only be there if she wants me to be there

[Lou12]

Are you prepared for her not contacting you at all? I think you need to toy with this idea and think of a strategy for how you'll deal with this should that happen.

Her emotions are hers. You have to accept that she may be feeling open to see you today or she may not.

[Davy]

Yes, I understand that.

If She does not contact me at all I will try to keep myself from contacting her for 2 weeks and then just send a text to ask how she is doing.

[Davy]

Just got the following text from her

"I'm going over to my mom for dinner. I really need to talk to her. I'm feeling very bad and dont think it is wise to force anything between us right now. I'm really sorry. Maybe you can still come over when I get back. I will let you know"

So I answer "Thats ok. You dont need to worry about me. Just take care of yourself and say hi to you mom from me"

I got another text "You have your therapist to talk to  while I used to beg you to talk to me. And now with a stranger you can talk. To me this is very painfull"

then another text "I am hurt and disapointed. I'm really sorry but I cant pretendI want to be honest with you and describe how I feel"

Me "Me visiting the therapist is about improving my communication with you. If you want to talk? I'm here."

What does this mean? Is it good that she is talking about these feelings or is it bad?

[Lou12]

I think it's great news that she is attempting to communicate with you but what's even better are your responses! Well done Davy, give her space now to let her come back to you. Do not panic...

[Davy]

she sent another text "that is not how it feels to me. Do you understand my point of view."

Me "I understand that it makes you feel sad. If there is anything i can do to make you feel better? you can ask me anything"

[Lou12]

Great. Not sure what other more experienced members would say?

I'd be inclined to use a little more sympathy such as 'I am sorry you feel this way, it would never be my intention to hurt you'... .

[Davy]

Should I send her another text to show more sympathy or would it be best to leave it up to her now?

[1minuteatatime]

Should I send her another text to show more sympathy or would it be best to leave it up to her now?

I also think it is fantastic that she is talking about her feelings.  My advice.  Don't text her anymore.  You have set the tone.  You are there for her if she wants.  I would let her reach out.  Texts can be misconstrued with anyone.  Anyone.  Careful with the texts.  In person convos are best.

[MapleBob]

Are you open to being transparent about your therapy process with her? It sounds like she wants you to be more vulnerable with her. I would say that one more text would be appropriate, your responses are great thus far, and keep up the validation. Something like: "I'd be open to talking to you in person about the things I discuss with my therapist. It's kind of too involved to text about, but if you'd like to meet tonight after you see your mom (or another *specific* time that *you* suggest), I'd love to tell you all about it."

[Davy]

Ok I send her 1 more text

"I'm sorry that I cause you to feel bad. That was never my intention. But I understand how it must feel to you. If you like I'm happy to talk about my therapie with you.

I have no secrets for you."

Now I await a reply

[Davy]

I am pretty sure I'm not going to see her today.

Its 8.40 pm here and  I have not heard anything.

Luckely I kinda suspected this and am not taking it to hard

[livednlearned]

Hey Davy,

It sounds like you are centering yourself even as her boat rocks and rolls. That's important for the relationship.

She likely feels anxious over things that might not even phase you or me. And then a loop of self-loathing starts that can be paralyzing -- she feels anxious about dinner, or anxious about you talking to your therapist about her, a sense of foreboding she can't quite name, overwhelming pressure to show up meanwhile knowing that her feelings are intense and her wants feel like needs, she's going to disappoint herself, disappoint you, etc. It's an emotional roller coaster, and your work is to stay grounded, not get on the ride.

I think you did a really good job holding steady 

One small suggestion is to use validating questions wherever you can. Statements are easy to disagree with, questions give her some problem-solving duties that can take the focus off you. "I understand how it must feel to you" can easily become (in her mind) "No you don't, I'm different -- I know deep down that there is something wrong with me, and I hate myself and you will eventually hate me too." Whereas, "Is there anything I can do to help you?" or "Would it help if I (name something you can do)?" is a little less one-way.

Does that make sense?

[Davy]

Still have not heard anything. I'm hoping she will reach out today and wants to see me.

According to your reactions this seems to be a very hopefull stage?

She seems to be scared and maybe ashamed/feeling guilty. Does this mean she is returning to base level?

What can I expect at this point?

Hopefully I can start posting on the improving a relationship board soon

[Modron]

Look at the patterns you're experiencing now: we talked, everything is fine, now she won't talk to me. Decide if it's what you want forever. It's not going to change. It's a hallmark of the disorder.

[Lou12]

Hi Davy

First off I just wanted to say well done for how you handled yourself yesterday. Did it make you feel empowered at all that you proved to yourself you remained strong and centred at a time when you were hoping to get some resolve?

With regards to things improving, that's the million dollar question that we all search for! The thing is with BPD it's about accepting that this is the way it is! So whilst it may look like the scales are slowly dipping in that direction, within a minute the can rapidly change. You can't blame yourself for this especially when you are working so hard on validation. Maybe look at radical acceptance and try and understand the situation as best you can.

I totally understand how frustrating it can be. What I am learning is that I also need to take responsibility for my own actions. My BPD bf has just recently ended our relationship. After a chat we agreed to take some time out. I have recently contacted him and we agreed to take a trip together. Within 2 hours he was ignoring me again. What I learned from this... .I did not respect that he had asked me for some space because I needed him to make to validate me when I started to panic about if he'd come back. I lured him in with a holiday. This was a desperate atempt on my behalf to put things right and look to him to calm my own abandonment issues. On reflection, I deserved what I got. I didn't respect his need for space. I manipulated the sutuation. I didn't accept that he does not have the ability to validate me. I tried to run to him to make the situation better... .something he can't offer.

I think I've learnt my lesson that I have to respect ppls feelings. They are not mine to change. And I have to accept his non ability to help me with my feelings.

I hope this makes sense? For me it's about absorbing and processing more about radical acceptance. He won't change, I can change and either accept that he has BPD and all that goes with this or move on to another... I choose to stay...

[Davy]

Knowing that I am doing everything I have learnt I need to do gives me some comfort regardless of the outcome.

The last 3 days I have been able to detache myself from her. I no longer see us as a couple. I cant control her, only myself.

I still love her and want to work things out but for now I'm at peace working on myself and letting her deal with her issues.

I'm here for her if she needs me but if it all goes down the drain I know I did the right thing and kept my self respect.

It will hurt like hell if she ends it but its not the end of the world. Right now I can make peace with it.

I'm now in a good state for the both of us  I believe. Lets hope I can maintain this state and not fall apart again

[Lou12]

Good I am glad you feel this way.

Now ask yourself the questions you asked this morning... .there is no answer

[Notwendy]

I've read your story and it is good to see you arrive at a place where you are feeling able to accept the outcome no matter what.


At some point, we all come to a place where we make decisions- to stay, to move on, to tolerate behavior, to decide we have had enough of it. This place, and the decisions, is very individual. BPD is not the only aspect of a person, and it is a spectrum. While there are behaviors that are common, people with BPD can be entirely different from each other. So your decision is yours alone to make.


What tends to be consistent with people are the rules of behavior. For every behavior, there can be a cost and a payoff. People will continue a behavior so long as the payoff is higher than the cost- even if the cost is very high. People with addictions can continue to pay a very high cost for their behavior- physical damage, families, relationships, but addictions are very hard to stop.

There are several ways for behavior to continue by reinforcement. Positive, negative, and intermittent. Intermittent is the most powerful reinforcer because it reinforces a person to keep trying again and again, because sometimes the behavior is rewarded.

Your GF, or ex, as it is, has shown you who she is. She isn't doing anything wrong- in the sense that, what you see is what you get with her. She is inconsistent, sometimes responds, sometimes does not. She's going about her life as usual, while you seem to be in agony, waiting, hoping, for some contact. Then contact-- followed by despair. Since she doesn't respond on a regular basis, this is intermittent reinforcement. So far, it seems that the thrill of possible contact is greater than the cost of your despair.

While the focus of your threads is on her- what to do next, some kind of chess game- her move, your move, the other side of this is you. You have a choice. Do you expect her to one day realize that you are amazing and that she will change her behavior once she sees this? One important question is are you expecting or hoping she will change if you do the "right" thing whatever that is?

The truth is, we have no control over someone else's behavior. They are who they are. IMHO, your friend is being exactly who she is. She has set the terms for your relationship. She controls it. If you are willing to have a relationship with her no matter what- that having a relationship with her is worth the emotional cost of waiting to hear from her, making dates and have her break them- then this is your choice. It is the whole package. The feelings you have are yours to deal with- and that is something you can work on with your T.

The other choice is to decide that this is not the kind of relationship you want- that you want a relationship with someone who can be consistent and reliable, someone who also shows you that they care about you. However, to have this relationship, you may have to decide that it isn't with her- because you can't change her. 

There has been discussion about ultimatums not working. That's because an ultimatum is directed at her: change or else. But why should she change? She is who she is. Your choice is about you. By owning your choices- you take your part of the relationship in our own hands, and make it about you, not her.

[Davy]

Ok, I get the feeling that you are saying it would be best for me to end this relationship myself?

For now I intend to keep the door open for her but not come knocking on her door anymore.

I am not sure what I want/expect from this relationship anymore. I am just willing to see where it leads us and if we can have a managable relationship.

I realise that the woman I fell in love with is not real but She is a great and wonderfull person that I will not give up on so easily

[Notwendy]

Davy - I think what I am trying to say is that you have choices. One of them is to end the relationship, but I don't think that is what you want at the moment. I think I am trying to promote the idea that you have choices - and that owning your choices also means owning the cost of that choice.

You can choose to leave the door open for her. However the cost of that choice might be to be somehow holding on to the hope that she will walk through it. Some people might be OK with that, and some may not.

You mentioned that you have been considering dating other people. To be fair, as long as you hold the door open for her, you are not able to really commit to someone else. That may not be a problem when initially dating, but it makes you not completely available for someone who would want to be with you.

Another aspect to consider is what is it about you that is attracted to someone who behaves like your friend? If you are not aware of these reasons, then it is likely that the next relationship could be similar. We attract and are attracted to people who match us emotionally in some way. If we want a different kind of relationship, then we have to take steps to grow emotionally- and that takes some personal work.

While it might be seen as a step towards healing, dating others could also be a way to escape your painful feelings. In this case, we don't grow emotionally. Being single in between relationships is an opportunity to make personal changes that could result in emotional growth.

I'm not telling you what choice to make. That's entirely up to you. I am proposing that the dynamics- the intemittent reinforcement of her interactions with you may be playing a part into how attached you are. She isn't doing this on purpose. This is who she is. But being aware of how this kind of response affects other humans, you may gain some insight into your attachment. I am not making either of you wrong. She is just being the person she is, and so are you.

[Davy]

Yeah the dating thing was wrong and I did not go through with it.

I am not in a place right now to start a new relationship. To be honest I was hopelesly looking for comfort but I feel much stronger now.

I cant say at the moment how long I will keep the door open for her. At some point I must realize its never going to work out but I'm not at that point yet.

Maybe in a week or month. cant say but this situation cant go on forever without some improvement

[livednlearned]

Part of "saving" a BPD relationship is accepting the emotional rollercoaster she experiences without getting on it yourself.

We have to accept that our job is to stay put on the ground where they can find us when they get off the roller coaster. If we get on the roller coaster with them, we're not helping ourselves or them, and can often make it worse.

The question is whether you feel strong enough to stay grounded, or at least want to get to that place, even when it feels counter intuitive to what you want to do (rescue her, chase her, love bomb her).

A lot of us thought getting on the roller coaster was the only way to care for them. That if we didn't, they would leave us or hurt themselves or think we didn't love them.

If your GF can see that you have the strength to take care of yourself like this, it increases the chance she will keep returning. Though of course, no guarantees.