I need some guidance. Plain and Simple.

[DazedBoyfriend]

This is really long, and I apologize. I'm an information nut, the more information I have the better I can see the chessboard, the better conclusions and decisions I can make. As such I tend to compile a lot of information when I ask for advice. I hope someone has some insight, but please refrain from jumping straight to advice without considering everything and reading what it is I'm really looking for at the end. There might be some points of "Too Much Information" but I can't really get around that with the relationship we've had and illustrating the concerns I have about her. Thank you for your support and advice!

I have been involved in a rocky undefined relationship with a woman for the last two years that has been everything I've ever wanted in a life partner and more. She's the first woman I can actually claim I have truly had romantic feelings for (ie love, passion, desire, compassion) since high school almost 20 years ago. So, this is hard, because I thought maybe I just wasn't capable or meant to have those feelings until I met her, which I accepted and was content. Now that I'm on the other side, however, I don't want to give up on that, but things have come to a point that I need to make life choices best for me no matter how much they hurt and I don't know how to deal with some things regarding her. I do not have familial support, which I will explain here in some background.

First, a brief about me: I am in my mid 30's. I own several investment properties and I work full time. I take care of my mother who is retired and near the age of 70 with macular degeneration and partial hearing loss. When I first got involved with her I had just gotten back to work after 18 months unemployed and I was in some financial hardship due to that extended unemployment, which I have since worked my way out of. I do cope with a bit of depression which I regulate with meditation and normally very careful selection of people I allow into my life. I choose not to medicate for personal reasons, but it's not at all because I don't believe in the medication. I've been quite well dealing for some 10 years, until the situation with her that I'm going to tell next combined with my brother being found dead after 13 years and having to break the news to my mother etc. It's been a rough 18 to 24 months for me, personally, without what's happened with her.

We met 5-6 years ago at a Halloween party and had an instant connection. She was at the party with some "friends" including a guy whom I was told was an ex-boyfriend. He had it in his mind that they were still together - I do not know if she misrepresented things or what. What I do know is that he, for whatever reason, believed I approached her and propositioned her asking if she was in a "Polyamorous relationship." Which is certainly not an opening line to anyone I know! It's important because of what happens later. After that party, she and I never saw each other. Despite exchanging numbers, she fell off the face of the Earth. I chalked it up to she moved on and I just imagined feeling any sort of connection.

Then a couple years ago, she finds me on a social network geared towards kinksters, fetishists, and BDSM. I believe in sex positive, safe sane and consensual, and I have worked as a photographer and enjoy working with creatives from burlesque dancers to models and exhibitionists. She found me and pursued me pretty relentlessly on this site, offering to pay me gas money to drive the 45 minutes to visit her - with the expectation of sex. After talking through email and phone for a few weeks, rather intimately and intensely, I decided I'd see where things would go and held no expectation. We had a great night, some hot sex and started seeing each other regularly. Everything was great. Better than great in fact. That is until the ex-boyfriend I mentioned found out that she and I were seeing each other and he went to her family and outed her as being Bi-sexual, Polyamorous, and involved in BDSM - and he then told them (to my understanding) that I brainwashed her to be all of the above! Much of this I can't confirm because it comes from her, and the more I've learned about Borderline, the more I think there is much that is exaggerated.

Anyway, she is somewhat dependent on her family because of medical bills due to a car accident and some other medical issues. She actually has a scar on the back of her head from where they did surgery to relieve brain swelling I believe. Her family is quite religious/conservative while she is quite the opposite, which creates contention in her relationships with her family regardless of the Borderline. So after what happened with her ex-boyfriend who has the favor of the family, and the mother apparently trying to force the two of them back into a relationship, which he wants but she does not - it became difficult for us to see each other. A period of time with that and the high pressure from her family and suddenly I'm becoming the bad guy because the first night we were together she suddenly remembers me doing something that made her feel abandoned. Things get real rocky and on/off as a friendship, let alone a relationship. I know she has borderline, however, because she's been diagnosed and warned me that she might try to push me away, etc. I try to stay patient, supportive, let her know that I care, etc. My belief being that if I'm just consistent, and honest, and everything that I possibly can be, that we can heal our relationship, regardless of it becoming a full fledged relationship again. During this time she gets involved with Web Cam sex work then has a crisis and comes to me to remove the account and try to get photos of her removed from the web that were cropping up. Then she starts doing locally paid Dominatrix work. She lost her job as a counselor and at a retail store and started relying on this for money so she can perform in as many as 4 different rock bands at once. Last August, after an episode where she derided me as a horrible person for caring, loving, etc, she started seeing a Therapist and he put her on Tegretol to stabilize her mood. She seemed to improve. There was a lot of "I want to see you," and "I miss you," and it was always next week that I'd get to see her. Next week after she kicked out this roommate. Next week after her band's show because she's practicing so much. Next week after she moves. Etc, etc, etc. This went on for the last several months, from July to present, where I saw her once, but always next week, and after next week you'll see a lot more of me.

Rewinding to last spring, after her last episodes and some of the family drama calmed down, things had started moving positive with her and I despite some of her irrational behavior, several moves around the city, sudden issues with friends/band members that lead to moves, lost money, and broken leases. I was not in a position to stop her, so I did my best to support her however I could. Alone. Without the support of anyone else and with apparent active opposition and disproval from her family who doesn't know we still speak.

Well, in the last couple of months, and among the last couple of moves she made were first back home to her mother & step father where she managed to get full control of an investment, that was set up for her from the settlement of the car accident, she took that money and bought a house out of the blue. She had told me she was going to look because she had to get out of her mom's house, and knew I was available to help her with inspections and buying, etc only to give me a call one day and said she bought a house and that I'll see a lot more of her after she moved in in early January. We made plans to go out to a friend's first show with a new band after she moved in, and I checked with her to make sure she didn't "forget" or anything and up until the last minute she was planning on going, then she disappeared. No call. No show. No nothing. So I calmly, but in text because that was the only way I was guaranteed to reach her and she refuses to talk about things serious in person or on the phone, I calmly but firmly asserted that I was not appreciative of being stood up. Suddenly she's suicidal because everyone's expecting everything from her and she's got to much responsibility managing her own affairs (I manage 4 properties, take care of my mother, and have been trying to manage my deceased brother's affairs for his two son's and my mother and I still reach out to help take care of her credit troubles, house, etc - which she doesn't follow through with me on and talks like she has way more responsibilities than anyone should have) -- but it doesn't mean she doesn't care.

I simply and calmly say that I wish I understood her a little better right now and proceeded to ask her several questions such as: When you say you miss me so much and you want to see me, why do you choose to see everyone else but me when you do have free time? Why do you send me sexy photos and then photos of you enjoying good times with other guys when you say you have really strong feelings for me? Why are you afraid of opening up to me when you tell me you trust me and have really strong feelings? Why she seems to work against herself and refuse help from people who really care while surrounding herself with people she knows will take advantage of her or not be there for her when she needs someone? Does she reasonably think that if the role was reversed that she would stick around to support me with the way she's acted towards me? etc etc. Her only answer was that she didn't know. So, following advice I've read in articles from psychology today and other sites, I attempted to assert some boundaries, saying that if she really valued and respected me then she needs to show me through action, not just combinations of words, dirty photos, and "xoxo" in texts. I said I'm not a second choice, or an accessory to be had and pulled from the play box every few months. That if us working out and being together again, legitimately, and not just some fling would never happen again, just to tell me because it's not fair to either of us, and that I would stand beside her regardless, etc, etc. She soon sent out a mass text to, presumably, all her friends and family saying she's taking a break from life to figure things out and she needs isolation. She then lightly accused me of telling her how she feels and what she's doing, which I responded that I'm repeating what she's told me and what I've observed. I asked her if some of the people she's been involved with whom she's made more of an effort to see than she has with me were more important to her, which was met with "You don't get it at all! Those people aren't you. Just tell me to ___ off then." And again I'm calm with her but assert boundaries, I reassure her that I'm there for her, that I'm trying to understand, that I'm trying to support her, and I'm not judging her, that I'm just trying to figure out where I fit in her life and if that is just seeing her once in a blue moon then that's all I want to know. That it hurts when she talks all of this "I miss you. I want to see you next week" and then she spends time with everyone but me, that she repeatedly has chosen to see others over me. She told me I needed to give up the jealousy and I'm painting a horrid picture of her. That *my* emotional rollercoasters mad her nervous because she didn't know how to handle them and she distanced herself.

Then comes the attacks over the first night we were together. A year ago, as I mentioned, she said she had problems with it because I couldn't stay the night and left early. I left at 5 in the morning and had to be at a job at 9am, which she was aware of, but I apologized I made her feel that way, even though she never expressed feeling that way until about 6 months later, well after the family drama started. This time, almost two years after our first night, it's not only that I left early, it's that she didn't expect it and she felt shocked and violated because we didn't use protection (stupid, I admit, we got caught in the heat of the moment after she came back to the bedroom undressed and undressed me, and initiated sex.) The conversation just got worse from there. I'm "seemingly not cool with" her, She just hasn't gotten over what I did to her that first night enough yet, I'm twisting ___, what the hell is wrong with me, I'm being delusional and not wanting to admit any responsibility for that. She tried to ignore what happened because that's not how she wanted to think of me. She's been fighting feelings and an inability to trust me... .

Here's the thing. First and foremost, I want to see her happy and healthy - that's what we all want of our loved ones, right? Be damned my relationship with her, if it's best I never see her again, if that's the only way to help give her peace, then as much as it breaks my heart, okay. I've told her many times in the last few months that I would be willing to visit her therapist with her. She's talked about trying to make her mother accepting of me. None of these things were voiced until she was faced with the fact that I was politely calling her on the way she's treated me and wanting to set boundaries. Each time she goes off like this it seems to be worse, I don't think she's getting the support from her family, I know she quit taking her Tegretol because of the cost, and despite the fact that I found a generic for 1/10th the cost that she was paying, I don't believe she's gotten back on it. I am concerned for her safety and well-being, and I do love her. I would like things to work out if at all possible, but I'm also afraid that it's beyond saving at this point.

I just don't know what's best to do.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[divina]

I did read your long post. I understand it is so hard to describe these situations in a short amount of words because people just won't understand all the nuances.  When reading it, it sounds so similar in ways to my relationship with my partner. (Not sure if he's my ex or not at this point.)

I applaud you for setting boundaries with her, and her accepting them.  I still have to do that, but because I never did, it makes it 10x harder to implement now.  I think all you can do is maintain those boundaries and not budge.  In the end of the day, you are responsible to take care of you.  In this whole tome, I hear a lot of concern about her feelings but you don't seem to be taking care of your pain.  (I can relate.)  Do nothing. You have told her you are there, and the rest is up to her.

[livednlearned]

Hi DazedBoyfriend,

It's good to get the story out and help people understand what you're going through, and what you want to accomplish.

People with BPD don't do well with stress -- stress can come from both good things (money) and bad things (job, transitions, family). There are some emotional limitations that have to be accepted, and the difficulties they have with stress is one of them. How we cope with responsibility (taking care of property, family, job, etc.) is going to be very different than how they cope with even less responsibility.

One skill that is essential to BPD relationships is validation. This is about acknowledging and accepting their feelings -- which is different than agreeing with them. You noticed that she did well when you asserted boundaries. Combining validation with boundaries can be a powerful healthy combination.

Right now, she needs you to be the good guy you were when the two of you met. Can you get back to that place?

[DazedBoyfriend]

Hi DazedBoyfriend,

It's good to get the story out and help people understand what you're going through, and what you want to accomplish.

People with BPD don't do well with stress -- stress can come from both good things (money) and bad things (job, transitions, family). There are some emotional limitations that have to be accepted, and the difficulties they have with stress is one of them. How we cope with responsibility (taking care of property, family, job, etc.) is going to be very different than how they cope with even less responsibility.

One skill that is essential to BPD relationships is validation. This is about acknowledging and accepting their feelings -- which is different than agreeing with them. You noticed that she did well when you asserted boundaries. Combining validation with boundaries can be a powerful healthy combination.

Right now, she needs you to be the good guy you were when the two of you met. Can you get back to that place?

Sorry for taking so long to reply - I never received notification that anyone replied. Was curious so since I had time I logged in to the surprise I had 2 replies! I'll probably regularly check on the weekends.

Thank you both for the reply. The only thing I'm not that I was when we first met is happy and carefree. I've had my own personal dramas with stresses over a business I run to my brother being found dead in his home after a month. I've reached out to her mother, whom I was lead to believe thought of me as Satan himself, and it doesn't appear to be quite the situation.

However, she hasn't quite accepted any boundaries, instead she's attacked me, and, having found out that I've expressed my concern about her towards others who should be aware, she has threatened to call the cops on me. I've apologized, repeatedly for her feeling the way she feels but she insists I need to "accept I did" these things she's suddenly accusing me of. We'e not spoken for almost 2 weeks now, and I've only seen her once since July 3rd, despite constant promises of seeing me more. I found out from her mother that her therapist has had to cancel for the last 3 weeks, and I don't know if I mentioned, but I'm fairly certain she quit taking medication because she couldn't afford the medication she was prescribed, despite the fact that I found a generic version for 1/10th the cost.

In many ways, I'm seeing signs of comorbidality with Narcissism, and/or potentially other conditions. She is persistently choosing people who don't know her well, who don't understand her mental state, and who don't truly care about her because many of them only want one thing from her: sexual stimulation. She is involved with the local Kink/BDSM scene, which I have no problem with, she claims to not be comfortable with even the thought of having sex, but she acts as a Female Dom, even taking paid work as such, to get men to treat her like a goddess through foot worship, sissification fantasies, doing housework, and more. She's not focused on finding gainful employment and has overwhelmed her schedule with playing in 3 to 4 bands, always talking about how they are recording and have a record deal in progress. She's a talented musician, but she's not been consistent with her bands, or her living situation.

In 2 years she has been in approximately 6 different bands, having left several bands because problems developed with other members believing she wasn't taking the group seriously since she wasn't showing up for practice. She's also lived in 5 different homes, and each time she moved it was because she was "being bullied" and/or unable to live with roommates she chose. She broke a lease 6 months early and bailed on the utility bills to escape the last place in her name bouncing around a few couches before taking control of her investment money and draining that fund to buy a house. Now I'm concerned she'll decide she needs a roommate and then skip out on her own house to escape those roommates. The point of this is that as this all has gone on, she's never claimed responsibility for anything.

I feel like I've been emotionally hit with a truck, and the sheer act of trying to be there for her and trying to be supportive to her gets mild appreciation on good days and down right vicious attacks on bad days. I'm at a point where all I can do is leave this alone and hope that she comes around, because she won't let me in enough to actually help, and I need to take care of me. I'm not really sure what I'm expecting to find through this site other than maybe advice on helping her find stability in her own life because I hate to see this pain she's in that no one else in her life (that she's not pushing away) seems to be able to see.

I feel like I'm floundering and failing at helping her. I feel like she absolutely hates me and the way she talks makes me second guess what I thought I knew. Like, was I that oblivious to things that I really did this horrible thing? It's not how I remember it at all. I know that is common with borderline but it's still not easy to digest. It's hard for me to be happy and carefree when the person I want to spend my time with is making me feel like a second choice, or when I'm needing just a little attention because of something like having to tell my mother that my brother was found dead and not being able to process it myself because I'm in the midst of doing two gut rehabs after evicted tenants demolished the units and the one person that can make everything melt away is telling me how horrible and selfish I am because I bring her flowers every week and try to help her with her finances, problems et al.

I've kind of gotten to a point where I've chalked it up to: Either the girl I fell in love with was a figment of her borderline, or she quite possibly will feel these feelings of disgust for me regardless and I'll never have the opportunity to see things through the dreams we used to talk about. So I'm just trying to do right by her regardless, because I care about her and it's the right thing to do, even if she hates me for it.

Don't really know what else to do.

[livednlearned]

I'm so sorry for your loss, DazedBoyfriend.  :'( You may not be able to get support from your GF, though I hope there is someone in your life you can lean on, to grieve and heal what you've just gone through.

Interpersonal relationships are really hard to manage for someone suffering with BPD, for a number of reasons. Many feel their emotions more intensely and they are quicker to trigger and it can take a much longer time to return to baseline. Even small things can trigger anxiety over what we might think are small things. On top of that, there is a lot of impulsivity and rash decisions. All of this can create a loop of shame and negative feedback that makes intimacy more painful than not.

A lot of us have watched our loved ones engage in harmful behaviors, feeling helpless to protect them from themselves. The best skill is to learn and master the art of validation, especially validating questions.

Validation has the effect of soothing or minimizing the escalation of intense emotions -- we feel heard when someone validates (accepts, acknowledges) our reality. This is different than agreeing with her reality, an important distinction!

"The people you're spending time with are using you and taking advantage of you" can make her feel intense amounts of shame, or make her feel that you are putting her down, or trying to control her, even if she suspects you might be right. She will be dealing so much with her feelings about what you are saying, she can't hear what you are trying to tell her, and won't be able to calmly assess your intentions.

Whereas if she tells you she is spending time with X, and you ask her validating questions, the responsibility is on her to figure out how she feels, and solve what isn't working if she is ready to do that.

These are examples of validating questions:

Oh?

How did you feel about that?

What did you do?

And then what did you do?

What would you like to do?

When do you think it could be done?

What do you think the outcome will be?

What do you think might work?

What do you think would work next time?

Are there other options?

What happened?

How did it happen?

Where did it happen?

When did it happen?

It sounds like she has a lot of chaos going on, both in her living/work situations and in her emotions. She may not be able to comfort you or give you what you need when she's struggling in survival mode herself. I think there is another dichotomy that can be challenging -- she may not take responsibility for anything, meanwhile she feels tremendous shame about the discord she produces.

How often do you see her?

[DazedBoyfriend]

I'm so sorry for your loss, DazedBoyfriend.  :'( You may not be able to get support from your GF, though I hope there is someone in your life you can lean on, to grieve and heal what you've just gone through.

Interpersonal relationships are really hard to manage for someone suffering with BPD, for a number of reasons. Many feel their emotions more intensely and they are quicker to trigger and it can take a much longer time to return to baseline. Even small things can trigger anxiety over what we might think are small things. On top of that, there is a lot of impulsivity and rash decisions. All of this can create a loop of shame and negative feedback that makes intimacy more painful than not.

A lot of us have watched our loved ones engage in harmful behaviors, feeling helpless to protect them from themselves. The best skill is to learn and master the art of validation, especially validating questions.

Validation has the effect of soothing or minimizing the escalation of intense emotions -- we feel heard when someone validates (accepts, acknowledges) our reality. This is different than agreeing with her reality, an important distinction!

"The people you're spending time with are using you and taking advantage of you" can make her feel intense amounts of shame, or make her feel that you are putting her down, or trying to control her, even if she suspects you might be right. She will be dealing so much with her feelings about what you are saying, she can't hear what you are trying to tell her, and won't be able to calmly assess your intentions.

Whereas if she tells you she is spending time with X, and you ask her validating questions, the responsibility is on her to figure out how she feels, and solve what isn't working if she is ready to do that.

These are examples of validating questions:

Oh?

How did you feel about that?

What did you do?

And then what did you do?

What would you like to do?

When do you think it could be done?

What do you think the outcome will be?

What do you think might work?

What do you think would work next time?

Are there other options?

What happened?

How did it happen?

Where did it happen?

When did it happen?

It sounds like she has a lot of chaos going on, both in her living/work situations and in her emotions. She may not be able to comfort you or give you what you need when she's struggling in survival mode herself. I think there is another dichotomy that can be challenging -- she may not take responsibility for anything, meanwhile she feels tremendous shame about the discord she produces.

How often do you see her?

I appreciate the words. I'm a survivor. I've lived with depression most of my life, and she initially caught me off guard which triggered a bad episode, compounded with the chaos that ensued in my life which I already discussed a bit.

When we first became something, I would see her several times a week. What triggered this terribly bad episode, the best I can discern, started in August of 2014. We were on top of the world together, but she didn't want anyone to find out about us and I was fine because I was intent on taking things slow since I was serious about her. Well, her semi-abusive ex found out, and he has always hated me (don't know why). He went to her very religious mother, and from what I understand, told mom that I "brainwashed" her to be bi-sexual, polyamorous, and into BDSM. That went over well in her world. Suddenly she feels her parents are monitoring her texts and phone calls, I'm not allowed to come around, etc, and there becomes a lot of back and forth of "I want to work things out with you" and "You're the most horrible person on the Earth because you treat me well" kind of behavior. I cut things off completely for awhile and she sought me back out and we were just taking it slow, seeing each other at least once a week again before she lost it all over again. She lost it on July 3rd of last year when she ripped me apart for treating her well and taking her on dates. Then she came back about a month later, apologized, told me she was now on Tegretol, doing better, seeing a therapist once a week, and she wanted to see me. Her wanting to see me was always "next week" after "I kick this roommate out" or "after things calm down with my band" or "after I get moved into my new place" and so on and so forth. I saw her once in December, first time since July, when a night that was supposed to be for us turned into me taking her to dinner and then being a chauffeur. We had good discussion and I could have been content with that had we started seeing each other semi regularly again. January 20th I confronted her with questions regarding this. I had stated I wish I understood somethings about her, and asked things like:

Why do you seem to think that anytime someone is upset at you about something it's like they are expecting the world of you, criticizing you, berating you, being mean to you?

Why is it when I've defended myself at times you've acted like I'm being mean and attacking you just for caring about you?

Why are you afraid of something real with someone who's good to you that you have admitted similar feelings for?

Why do you actively work to sabotage your own life by surrounding yourself with fake friends who only care about having a good time with what they can take from you?

Why do you push people who care and want good for you away?

Why do you always take on more than any person can reasonably handle - what is it you're trying to avoid?

Why do you treat me like barely an acquaintance when you say you care for me so much and respect me, etc?

Have you ever considered that the reason you deal with depression is that you surround yourself with empty platitudes from shallow relationships and friendships so you seek out more and more to try to fill the space that only deeper relationships can fill?

Why do you seem to work against yourself and refuse help from people who can help?

Why is it always just next week before I'll see a lot more of you?

Why do you think that it shouldn't hurt that you consistently choose people over me when you like to tell me how good of a guy I am and how much you care for me?

Why do you seem to think that I ask so much from you?

Why is any interaction with you all about you anymore?

Why is being upset that you stood me up like an ultimate sin on my part like I did something wrong when I'm not even treating you as though you did something terribly wrong?

We had a decent conversation off of these questions at first, some of it started to get a little rough, but it wasn't until a comment came up about our "First Date" in which she started accusing me of forcing her to have sex with me when, in fact, she was the one who undressed in another room, came in, asked "are we going to do this," and proceeded to undress me and initiate sex. She has since started raging bad at me and our contact is cut. Last year when she got bad she made accusations of me just leaving without saying anything after we had sex (again a twisted truth. I stayed with her until the sun had come up and had to leave for work. I didn't sleep for 48 hours because I chose to spend my time with her over sleep. I had told her prior that I had to leave in the early morning because of work). After that she started calling me selfish, and unstable, and delusional, etc, etc. I've never asked her for anything, I've gone out of my way to help her and support her. I've offered to help with credit issues, help with repairs on her house that she bought impulsively, help her move, I've scheduled vacation to be available for her because she would tell me she needed help and then when the time came she was nowhere to be found... .

Right now, I feel like I have no choice to but to give up on her. I know she quit taking her Tegretol in October because she told me she couldn't afford it. I have been in touch with her mother and I know her therapist has canceled appointments for at least the last 3 weeks prior to her raging at me. Her mother also has stated that this is the worst that she's ever been. Her mother also told me "Many of her friends have betrayed or abandoned her instead of walking in her shoes." And I knew much of that. I made a promise to her that I would never abandon her, and that I'd only leave if she asked me. I just want to know where she and I stand because I want, and need, to make choices about my life.

I've begun to realize that she's compartmentalized her relationships so that no one knows the truth about anyone else that way she can tell whatever "truth" about a situation she wants and not have to face reality. I've realized she is so afraid of her own emotions that she's avoiding anything real at all costs. There's nothing I can do for her right now because I can't even talk to her. Maybe I never really will be able to anymore. I'm even wondering if the girl I fell in love with was real at all. But this girl, this talented, beautiful, amazing person needs people who care enough to stand by her regardless of the hate she's giving, and I may loose my relationship, my friendship, etc with her, but if I'm able to make a positive difference, I don't care. I'll carry that weight.

I'm just trying to understand how to reach her right now to be able to help. This post thread has not been easy, and incredibly personal. I thank any positive response, and I hope that this at least helps someone else.