Violation of sexual values/boundaries

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

This is a sensitive topic so I'd like to invite everyone replying to treat each other as sensitively as we can. Thanking everyone in advance.   

Hello everyone,

This is a difficult topic for me. In this relationship with my BPD ex with strong narcissistic traits, I came close to or experienced certain violations of my bodily integrity and was unable to defend my boundaries as strongly as I feel I should have. I experience a lot of shame about this. Right now, I experience this coldly but on some days, it's horrible. I have been more powerful in my relationships before - I had another relationship where I encountered behaviour like this with a cerebral narcissist and I ended the relationship then and there. In this relationship though, I feel horrible and ashamed because I came close to rape and tried to educate him about what consists of rape. What the hell was that? Did you experience a change in your sexual boundaries for the worse in your relationship with the pwBPD? Why do you think this happens?

[thisworld]

This is a sensitive topic so I'd like to invite everyone replying to treat each other as sensitively as we can. Thanking everyone in advance.   

Hello everyone,

This is a difficult topic for me. In this relationship with my BPD ex with strong narcissistic traits, I came close to or experienced certain violations of my bodily integrity and was unable to defend my boundaries as strongly as I feel I should have. I experience a lot of shame about this. Right now, I experience this coldly but on some days, it's horrible. I have been more powerful in my relationships before - I had another relationship where I encountered behaviour like this with a cerebral narcissist and I ended the relationship then and there. In this relationship though, I feel horrible and ashamed because I came close to rape and tried to educate him about what consists of rape. What the hell was that? Did you experience a change in your sexual boundaries for the worse in your relationship with the pwBPD? Why do you think this happens?

[Herodias]

Yes... .I think he manipulated me into doing what he wanted by making me feel like I was old,  because he is younger than me. I was afraid he would go have an affair or leave. Thing is, he did it anyway. Some how he convinced me to do what he wanted. I am convinced his new gf will not do some of the things, as he has told me he doesn't do those things anymore, because he doesn't want to "hurt" anyone.

[thisworld]

Herodias,

Thank you for your reply. It was eye-opening for me in terms of our boundaries under emotionally abusive circumstances. And I think what he said to you was hurtful. I don't know if it was designed to hurt you or he was reporting his intentions in a childlike mood to you (my ex did both) but it doesn't change the situation in my eyes. Please take good care of yourself

[steelwork]

Thank you both for sharing. I'm sorry you experienced those sexual boundary violations. It sounds awful.

thisworld, I hope you can stop feeling shame about having been manipulated. I know you know it's not anything to be ashamed of, but it's hard to shake something like that. It sounds like you were traumatized by it. Do you have a counsellor or anyone else you can talk to?

I don't have a similar experience, but Herodias, your story does bring something up for me. My bf was also younger than me, and I expressed my anxiety about that once. I'm young-looking now, but I told him I was afraid that he'd lose interest in me as I aged. (Background is that he is very concerned with his own appearance. He lifts weights, for instance, and he has a bodybuilder's physique even in his mid-forties. It was always kind of a turn-off to me.)

Anyhow, when I brought up my anxiety about it, he said he made a lot of money, so he could pay for me to have plastic surgery later on! I know he said it to assuage my fears, but what a strange thing to say. Not "I'll love you no matter what" or "I'll be older then, too" but "We'll use my money to keep you attractive."

I also noticed a few times that he would reject kisses, etc, if he was feeling upset because I had to leave soon.

I can imagine how these two things (preoccupation with youth, withholding of affection) might have created a similar situation in to yours, Herodias--where my age was used to manipulate me sexually.

[ladylee]

I am so sorry Herodias, that u were treated this way. Sex starts in the mind. My husband stopped romancing me altogether. He would rage at me, give me the silent treatment,  embarrass me in public, because I was telling him I was not happy that he stopped therapy and was engaging in high risk behaviors that endanger my financial welfare also. He was complaining that it was a "sex less marriage" but I could not turn on and off like a switch without romance. I was not sure if he was cheating on me already.  One day he said, "we are having sex tomorrow " like a threat. My answer to him was, "even though you have not spoken to me all week and told me not to pick up my fork at dinner until you have sat down?" He did not answer me. Intimacy starts in the mind, it's like a couting ritual, even animals court.  if someone makes you feel horrible and cannot see past the aging process, in a long term commitment they are shallow and callous.

[thisworld]

Steelwork,

Thank you for your kind words. I have a T, a support group in an organization where I once worked and some self-work to empower myself and it's not going bad. Acts in themselves were not repetitious and not very extreme and seeing them as control acts rather than sexual acts helps. So does the disorder aspect, in a way that deserves some thought for me. I will work on this in the self awareness forum but before that, maybe hearing similar experiences help me.

Thanks again. 

[AsGoodAsItGets]

Sex, manipulation is an odd thing.  And it sucks.  I remember getting viagra, just so I could let her do what she wants and then gI to sleep.  I just thought it was easier this way.  Looking back how sick and sad.  It's really ruin intamacy.  Sorry anyone has to go through this.  I mean romance is great, but he'll all we need was just a little appreciate from time to time and no manipulation would have been needed.  That's how we know they have an illness.  No one normal wants to share such intamacy with some one after treating them like crap.   So I know how you feel.  Sucks

[vortex of confusion]

My bodily integrity and values and boundaries were violated. And I allowed it to happen. I didn't say no and stick to it. I gave in. I went along for the ride because it made things easier.

I did some things that I am very ashamed of having done. I have wrestled with it and felt a lot of shame over the stuff that happened. My husband would encourage me to do things with other men and then demand details. I will never forget what happened before I did it for the very first time. I was sitting in the bathtub crying and throwing up because I was so upset by everything. I remember him rubbing my back and telling me, "It will be okay. You will have fun." He was so encouraging about it and so loving. He gave me all of the attention that I had been craving from him for so many years. So, I did it. I played all sorts of mind games with myself. I have beat myself up over this stuff time and again. Looking back, I have no clue how in the world I did such things. All of that stuff was so totally outside of my value system.

Until this last November, I would still take care of his physical needs whether I wanted to or not. It was like doing the dishes. I would zone out and take care of him and be done with it. He never told me I had to and he never asked. I knew that if I didn't do it, he would turn into a jerk. Plus, he is a sex addict so I was afraid that if I didn't give him what he wanted/needed then he would resort to other stuff.

[GreenEyedMonster]

I may have experienced a near-rape, but it is hard to say, given how things turned out.  But mine was almost certainly a product of projection/entitlement.

My ex knew my sexual boundaries and morals from the beginning of the relationship.  I figured, after our discussion, that he knew that when we first had sex would be a mutual decision and would require discussion.  He should have known that he couldn't just do it to me because he was in the mood for it and assumed I was too.  The reality was that he seemed to think that if he felt like it, I felt like it too, and that this decision could be made on assumptions, not discussion.

In hindsight, my ex really saw me as an extension of himself.  He failed to grasp that I was a separate person with separate desires and intentions from his.  He continually violated my physical space (my apartment) when he would come over by leaving messes, setting wet glasses on antique furniture, peeing on the toilet seat and leaving it for me to sit in, and eating my food gratuitously.  There was absolutely NO sense of boundaries with any of that.

[thisworld]

Sex, manipulation is an odd thing.  And it sucks.  I remember getting viagra, just so I could let her do what she wants and then gI to sleep.  I just thought it was easier this way.  Looking back how sick and sad.  It's really ruin intamacy.  Sorry anyone has to go through this.  I mean romance is great, but he'll all we need was just a little appreciate from time to time and no manipulation would have been needed.  That's how we know they have an illness.  No one normal wants to share such intamacy with some one after treating them like crap.   So I know how you feel.  Sucks

Thank you for sharing your experience AsGoodAsItGets. You are so right, there is so much manipulation in this as well, and yes the switch from hurtful behaviour to wanting sex was significant. I see it as a way for him to restore some self-worth when it decreased due to something inner, due to a discussion - just a little talk- and also a way of taking control of the situation - this removed the need to communicate with words about some personal truth in a discussion. This was very prominent in my ex, and there was nothing like any other small sign of attraction and intimacy in that moment that he switched from the discussion to sexual advanced. He would attempt to move across the table and try to catch my arm or something. Interestingly, this is one of the very few issues where I told him why I thought this was happening, that many people did it and films somehow teach us to so this, and he smiled and agreed. He seemed very mature at that time and stopped doing it - though the inner need for control doesn't come from films of course.

I'm truly sorry that you have had to go through difficulties in this area as well.

We should all do our best to stay strong,

[thisworld]

My bodily integrity and values and boundaries were violated. And I allowed it to happen. I didn't say no and stick to it. I gave in. I went along for the ride because it made things easier.

I did some things that I am very ashamed of having done. I have wrestled with it and felt a lot of shame over the stuff that happened. My husband would encourage me to do things with other men and then demand details. I will never forget what happened before I did it for the very first time. I was sitting in the bathtub crying and throwing up because I was so upset by everything. I remember him rubbing my back and telling me, "It will be okay. You will have fun." He was so encouraging about it and so loving. He gave me all of the attention that I had been craving from him for so many years. So, I did it. I played all sorts of mind games with myself. I have beat myself up over this stuff time and again. Looking back, I have no clue how in the world I did such things. All of that stuff was so totally outside of my value system.

Until this last November, I would still take care of his physical needs whether I wanted to or not. It was like doing the dishes. I would zone out and take care of him and be done with it. He never told me I had to and he never asked. I knew that if I didn't do it, he would turn into a jerk. Plus, he is a sex addict so I was afraid that if I didn't give him what he wanted/needed then he would resort to other stuff.

VortexofConfusion hi,

I'm very sorry that you have had to go through this. I think there is something ambient in these relationships. The situation itself brings so many unspoken conditions, secret and silent agreements that we start changing our boundaries. I think this kind of occurs in such a way that certain things are not even spoken anymore.

Are you doing anything to deal with this?

At the moment, I'm exploring my feelings. My initial feeling was mostly about myself. And I was very angry with myself for certain things. I know that I need to look into myself deeply.

But at the same time, I try to keep in mind one thing. In abusive situations like this, even though we contribute as knowing adults, there are certain circumstances - some extreme circumstances- that are also external to us. I personally want to understand my role in it but develop a perspective that also lets me see this as an experience under a particular circumstance. Yes, it says something about me but it's not me completely. At the moment I can grasp this but emotionally I haven't fully integrated it yet.

I went back to my teenage years with my therapist etc, but my experiences in this relationship did not trigger anything from my past - which doesn't have much. I'm thinking there was something unique, different in this relationship. Maybe I'm in denial because I still want to hold on to myself that still wants to say she has better boundaries - it's a good, positive need I think. Whatever the reason, I'm kind of determined to deal with this in the most empowering way possible, without fully shattering myself.

My thoughts are with you

[thisworld]

I may have experienced a near-rape, but it is hard to say, given how things turned out.  But mine was almost certainly a product of projection/entitlement.

My ex knew my sexual boundaries and morals from the beginning of the relationship.  I figured, after our discussion, that he knew that when we first had sex would be a mutual decision and would require discussion.  He should have known that he couldn't just do it to me because he was in the mood for it and assumed I was too.  The reality was that he seemed to think that if he felt like it, I felt like it too, and that this decision could be made on assumptions, not discussion.

In hindsight, my ex really saw me as an extension of himself.  He failed to grasp that I was a separate person with separate desires and intentions from his.  He continually violated my physical space (my apartment) when he would come over by leaving messes, setting wet glasses on antique furniture, peeing on the toilet seat and leaving it for me to sit in, and eating my food gratuitously.  There was absolutely NO sense of boundaries with any of that.

GEM hi,

As you know, my ex has very strong narcissistic traits as well and is a very entitled person sometimes. He knew some of my boundaries but I after reading the information on this site, I think BPD meant "knowing" something only after some boundary busting. Until the boundary was defended vigorously, he didn't accept its existence. This is how I interpret certain things now. Also, certain things I didn't state clearly - like "there is no slapping my face out of the blue while we are being softly intimate. I even didn't know that something like that could occur. My biggest anger for myself is that I managed to rationalize it   Yes, I'm someone who has managed to rationalize a surprise slap on my face through intellectualization. (Apparently, as I have discovered, I'm a BDSM theory expert though never involved or had any motive to get involved in practice.) This is no judgment about those who like BDSM, only someone with my boundaries should not be using BDSM theory to intellectualize a slap. This happened at the light of speed in my brain after an intial rush of something - anger, shame, shock. I then came to my senses the next day, relatively. Mentioned this. He happily invalidated it away and my jaw dropped. My mouth was literally left open. My biggest anger is that I didn't do what was necessary afterwards - send him from my house immediately. I feel ashamed. He didn't do it again but that doesn't mean much to me in this respect. It still doesn't change my shock at myself.

Later, I once came near rape as well. I think one experience at a time is enough for me right now:)) It gets a bit difficult . But overall, his "style" was so much about control. He liked positions that avoided intimacy and he avoided eye contact.  He avoided symbols of intimacy as much as he could - like the bed. In my situation, it didn't feel like entitlement only, but I think he was escaping something (intimacy) and trying to gain something (power). 

[burritoman]

I don't feel like my values were violated, but she certainly pushed my boundaries. There was one thing in particular that she used to do regularly that I repeatedly told her I hated, but of course she did it anyways. I vividly remember one time sternly telling her to "STOP," and she gave me that snarky BPD grin and said "come on... ." and kept doing it.

I also remember one particular time only about a month in where she was getting overly aggressive with me to the point where I was getting turned off. She was trying to exert dominance, and I'd throw it right back at her. Sexual power play. Looking back on that, it was an obvious boundary test on her part.

As an aside to this, I noticed over time that certain types of activity that I enjoyed (she claimed to as well) were suddenly "degrading" or "uncomfortable" to her, things that she would ASK me to do and were really quite tame. Sex became all about her, and I was only fulfilling her desires. I was just a sex toy with a heartbeat. She would also build up sexual tension then strip it away on a dime, but then complain that we didn't have enough sex. Again, exerting dominance. Is this common with BPD? Particularly in BPD women?

[thisworld]

Burritoman, thank you for your comments.

I don't feel like my values were violated, but she certainly pushed my boundaries. There was one thing in particular that she used to do regularly that I repeatedly told her I hated, but of course she did it anyways. I vividly remember one time sternly telling her to "STOP," and she gave me that snarky BPD grin and said "come on... ." and kept doing it.

May I ask you how you felt at that time - if you don't mind sharing of course. What happens to us emotionally when we say stop and someone goes on - with whatever behaviour, not necessarily sexually- and we agree? What made us agree to this in these relationships?

She would also build up sexual tension then strip it away on a dime, but then complain that we didn't have enough sex.

My ex did this, too but without the complaints. He would initiate something, stop it in the middle (or as soon as he felt I was engaged perhaps) and say "This is enough" with a grin on his face. My T says this reflects as emotionally sadistic on me whatever his reasons are (sometimes, the motive may even be pretty understandable in my ex's case but the emotional effect on me was taxing). To him, it was "a little game, so what?" Invalidation and complete lack of empathy when I spoke about these were as bad as situations in themselves.   

Stay strong!

[wakingfirst]

I've been reading, rereading this thread, and want to say thank you to all who have participated for their candor.  It's difficult to know what to say - so many of you are feeling shame and sadness, but what I feel when I read your posts is a sense of your dignity, your striving to understand, your bravery.  I admire you, each of you.

I've been wondering if it's appropriate for me to reply - as some of you know, I only had intercourse once with my ex (in 30 yrs!).  I was 18, I'd been sexually assaulted and my ex was the only guy who recognized that during sex, I shut down, left my body entirely.  He became very protective of me, and for many years he had sex with his girlfriends but snuggled, spooned, backrubbed, held me, and me him.  For years, I loved this - was sort of addicted to it, I think.  So when he complained about his gfs to me, or used me to make them jealous, I went along.  When he put me in uncomfortable sexual situations with a 3rd party, I tried not to mind.  When he discussed sex with me, using coarse terms, I tried to laugh it off.  The payoff of safety and affection was worth it.

But over time, my sexual side reawakened, and he hated this.  He could say anything about sex, but if I even mentioned fancying a guy or feeling desire, he'd say "you're too sweet to say things like that".  He'd get so uncomfortable - I don't think he was jealous so much as freaked out that I should want such things.  And once, when we got a little carried away in our cuddling, he pulled away and could hardly look at me. 

Gradually, I began to believe myself an asexual being, undesirable and incapable.  It'd be unfair to blame my ex completely on this. I let it happen. But I do think he reinforced this feeling because it suited him.  It got to a stage where he'd phone me up at night and ask me to tell him a story to help him fall asleep.  Whatever that was - a mommy thing, a virgin-whore thing, I don't know - but he liked it.  It was the reason I finally left.  I couldn't deny the adult, sexual side of my nature anymore.  I felt like I was going mad.

I think my story emphasizes that all of this is about control for the p w/BPD.  Not sex, but keeping us where they need us to be.  We're not exactly people to them, are we?  More like pieces in their jigsaw puzzle.  If a puzzle piece changes shape, the puzzle won't fit together anymore.  Why did we let it happen?  I feel shame around that question, too.  I keep telling myself, I was vulnerable, and I loved him.  Surely we can forgive ourselves for these? 

Love & peace to you all. 

[Herodias]

"I've been reading, rereading this thread, and want to say thank you to all who have participated for their candor.  It's difficult to know what to say - so many of you are feeling shame and sadness, but what I feel when I read your posts is a sense of your dignity, your striving to understand, your bravery.  I admire you, each of you."

I agree... .I do know that we are not the only ones who have dealt with these issues... .I have read some real horrible stories from people who have been with sociopaths and the like. I don't feel bad that I was trying to make my husband happy. It was wrong of him to do what he did... .that goes for all of our exes who expected us to put aside our boundaries to please them. Shame on them... .not us. I am thankful that this topic was brought up, because I think there has been allot of talk about how great the sex was, but not any talk about how bad it can be. There is a balance. As much as mine could be caring and exciting, he could also be terrifying and hurtful. Sometimes I think I just did what he wanted because I was afraid. I believe it's called Stockholm Syndrome when you stay with your abuser... .I think in a way that is what I was going on here. We thought we were in love and being loved, but not really in the true meaning of the word. This is a reminder to me what I was dealing with... .Sometimes when we get lonely and heartbroken, it's a good thing to remember the truth. This is the truth in raw form. Let alone the cheating and putting us in heath risks... .the danger we were in is frightening.

[unicorn2014]

My bodily integrity and values and boundaries were violated. And I allowed it to happen. I didn't say no and stick to it. I gave in. I went along for the ride because it made things easier.

I did some things that I am very ashamed of having done. I have wrestled with it and felt a lot of shame over the stuff that happened. My husband would encourage me to do things with other men and then demand details. I will never forget what happened before I did it for the very first time. I was sitting in the bathtub crying and throwing up because I was so upset by everything. I remember him rubbing my back and telling me, "It will be okay. You will have fun." He was so encouraging about it and so loving. He gave me all of the attention that I had been craving from him for so many years. So, I did it. I played all sorts of mind games with myself. I have beat myself up over this stuff time and again. Looking back, I have no clue how in the world I did such things. All of that stuff was so totally outside of my value system.

Until this last November, I would still take care of his physical needs whether I wanted to or not. It was like doing the dishes. I would zone out and take care of him and be done with it. He never told me I had to and he never asked. I knew that if I didn't do it, he would turn into a jerk. Plus, he is a sex addict so I was afraid that if I didn't give him what he wanted/needed then he would resort to other stuff.

I can relate to this. I've been divorced for many years but I'll never forget the day my ex husband told me he was entitled to have sex with me because he worked for a living, although he said it nastier then that. He basically said if I wouldn't have sex with him there was no point in him doing what he was doing. The thing was I didn't deny him, I was trying to follow the rules of our religion at the time which allowed for periods of abstinence. He actually violated my body after my baptism, he had no regard for the change I was trying to accomplish in my life, and this was before marriage. Nobody defended me from him and then when I asked for help after I was married they told me it was too late. Towards the end of our marriage I dreaded having sex with him, but I too never turned him down. He knew he couldn't reach me emotionally or mentally even though he tried to, but I had already begun to distance myself from him. I didn't enjoy sex at all by the end of our marriage.

Contrast that with my next relationship, which I don't even want to talk about at this moment.

I hope one day I can have a healthy sex in an emotionally committed relationship that's in line with my values, that is my prayer and ideal for myself.

[burritoman]

Burritoman, thank you for your comments.

I don't feel like my values were violated, but she certainly pushed my boundaries. There was one thing in particular that she used to do regularly that I repeatedly told her I hated, but of course she did it anyways. I vividly remember one time sternly telling her to "STOP," and she gave me that snarky BPD grin and said "come on... ." and kept doing it.

May I ask you how you felt at that time - if you don't mind sharing of course. What happens to us emotionally when we say stop and someone goes on - with whatever behaviour, not necessarily sexually- and we agree? What made us agree to this in these relationships?

She would also build up sexual tension then strip it away on a dime, but then complain that we didn't have enough sex.

My ex did this, too but without the complaints. He would initiate something, stop it in the middle (or as soon as he felt I was engaged perhaps) and say "This is enough" with a grin on his face. My T says this reflects as emotionally sadistic on me whatever his reasons are (sometimes, the motive may even be pretty understandable in my ex's case but the emotional effect on me was taxing). To him, it was "a little game, so what?" Invalidation and complete lack of empathy when I spoke about these were as bad as situations in themselves.   

Stay strong!

At the time I remember feeling uncomfortable and just waited for her to stop. I didn't feel violated, raped, or anything of the sort. Just irritated and uncomfortable.

The building up and stripping away happened more in the last 4-6 months. It was harder for me to initiate sex because usually I always chose the "wrong time." But when she would initiate it was always on her terms, me pleasing her. If for whatever reason I refused she would become irate.

[GreenEyedMonster]

One thing that I found demeaning in my relationship was that it was not sexually reciprocal.  He had no issue with asking for me a sexual favor, getting up, brushing his teeth, and leaving.   

In hindsight it is VERY hard for me to tell if this was intentional manipulation or simply projection.  The idea of him seeing me as just an extension of himself rings very true when I think about the physical aspect of our relationship.  If he wanted something,  he wanted something.  If he was turned on by doing something to me, that was cool too.  But if I was the only one who wanted something, he'd roll over and fall asleep, or get up and leave.  I can't imagine that he didn't know he was doing this, because sometimes I'd try to get him in the mood and he would just resist me.  I never confronted him about it, but I'd try to use other, more subtle methods of persuasion.

He liked a lot of attention on his body.  Sometimes I felt like I was just the canvas, the background, for all of it.  He would walk around undressed so that I would look at him, and draw attention to himself in other ways that I don't care to mention.  While I can't ever be sure what was going through his mind, there were times that I felt like I was just a real life porno movie for him to watch to get turned on.  Pretty much all he had ever known before me was porn, with little exception, so this isn't a stretch.  My physical realness was no doubt very interesting to him, but the idea of me being a separate human being with my own desires (or lack thereof) may have been lost on him.  It's hard to say.

[thisworld]

Thank you for your reply Burritoman.

Wakingfirst, I'm so happy that you are experiencing another part of your nature after all these difficult events and that you have made a decision to pursuit yourself and your desires in live. Yours is a story of tremendous strength and thank you for sharing it with us here. Your story shows me that control takes many forms.

Herodias, yes, all this turmoil in the name of love, and then you run the risk of getting someone irrelevant's STDs. I think the basic mistake we make is to imagine ourselves as somehow invincible, invulnerable beings without any boundaries and this becomes very risky especially in this part of these relationships.

Unicorn hi:)) Thank you for your sharing your experience. May I ask how you coped with your feelings at the time?

GEM, the meaning we attribute to intention is significant in these relationships sometimes. Do you think your feelings would change in this regard depending on your ex's intention or motivation?

Thank you for all your contributions:))

[unicorn2014]

Thank you for your reply Burritoman.

Wakingfirst, I'm so happy that you are experiencing another part of your nature after all these difficult events and that you have made a decision to pursuit yourself and your desires in live. Yours is a story of tremendous strength and thank you for sharing it with us here. Your story shows me that control takes many forms.

Herodias, yes, all this turmoil in the name of love, and then you run the risk of getting someone irrelevant's STDs. I think the basic mistake we make is to imagine ourselves as somehow invincible, invulnerable beings without any boundaries and this becomes very risky especially in this part of these relationships.

Unicorn hi:)) Thank you for your sharing your experience. May I ask how you coped with your feelings at the time?

Hello and you're welcome.

I did it until I could do it more and then I asked him to leave.

I am glad I did.

Today I found out he quit yet another job 3 weeks ago and he didn't tell me. (We have a d15 and he has only paid 1/3rd of child support for this month. I have full custody of her.)

That was the straw that broke the camel's back over 10 years ago, he quit his job right after we moved out of shared housing into our own apartment, and nothing has changed.

I am very glad I am not dependent on him anymore.

That was a very scary time in my life.

I will never sexually obligate myself to another disordered man again.

[GreenEyedMonster]

GEM, the meaning we attribute to intention is significant in these relationships sometimes. Do you think your feelings would change in this regard depending on your ex's intention or motivation?

Yes and no.

I think fundamentally, my ex's emotional growth is just stunted at a point where understanding other people in a fully empathetic way is not possible for him. 

With that said, his level of self-awareness is what matters to me most.  I will readily admit that I have PTSD-like abandonment fears that can make me a challenge to be in a relationship with.  I will tell my partner this from the outset, and what to expect, and how to handle it.  My self-awareness is high, but I explain to my partners that in the moment, when anxiety is high, I act compulsively and sometimes will need to be forgiven for things I say and do.  I always apologize when my anxiety resides and try to explain what my experience was like.  I feel terrible guilt when my anxiety harms someone else.

My ex doesn't seem to have this kind of level of self-awareness.  He seems to be a victim of his emotions.  Because of his mother's possessive behavior when he was a child, he rarely interacted with people other than his immediate family.  His brother was his best friend, and his connection to nearly everyone he knew at school.  So when he talks with other people, he sometimes expects to be treated like a brother or son, because that's all he knows.  He is a middle-aged man permanently stuck in childhood as far as his relational capabilities and experiences.

So anyway, back to the sex issue.  Intentional or not, I am not sure that my ex is self-aware enough to realize that he is selfish.  He seems totally clueless that things aren't just his to take.  The analogy is often made on these boards that pwBPD treat others the way a young child treats a new toy, and that seems to be an apt description of my ex.  There didn't seem to be malice there, at least at the beginning, or an intention to do so.  Many comments on this board reflect the idea that the pwBPD knows how to act normal and chooses not to, which I do not think was the case with my ex, but I do think that he is aware that he often breaks basic moral codes.

[Herodias]

For me, I feel all sexed out! I really have no interest and I have been a sexual person my whole life. Everything had to be such a big production. He watched so much porn that I think he believed that's how it is supposed to be. If I was't in the mood, which was only when he was raging drunk... He said I didn't love him. If I didn't shave my legs- I wasn't making an effort to be attractive to him. Everything was so dramatic. It was like we were in a movie... .It was ridiculous. I only denied him a few times in 9 years... .I think that I was always told that if you denied your husband, he would go elsewhere. Allot of good that did! Sometimes he would scare me... .he liked things weird at times. Not overly, but enough. When that movie "50 shades of gray" came out, he wanted to go see it. He told me that he thought he was like that guy. I wouldn't go see it with him. I am pretty sure the gf did. The awful thing is that I would love to be with someone who is happy having it once a week or something now... .I just can't imagine having to act like someone is the most wonderful lover in the world every day of the week. It's exhausting. I am going to put this out there... .Mine was into anal sex. He told me all young men like it... .It may be true. I have encountered it in my past, but not to the extent that he does. (and my old boyfriend turned out to be gay) He also insists that he was raped in his past. His Mother doesn't believe him and at this point I tend to agree  with her, even though I chose to believe him the whole marriage. Yet, why would someone who had been through that insist on it? There is also some gay tendencies that he has... .big time. I don't know of anyone he has been with, but there are boundaries he has crossed in that area that are really out there as well. Because of doing that for him, that was the cause of the surgery I had to have over Xmas. I had to do it before my good insurance was gone.(so I thought). He is telling me he doesn't do that anymore. I suppose she says no or he is lying. It just bothers me how he was so insistent and claiming to not do it now. I just am not sure how normal it is. My Dr. said it is a lifestyle choice, but she does not recommend it. I do not recommend it after all I have been through. I just still wonder how many men really want to do this? I have heard that allot of men wonder, but would never force someone. I also read that sometimes rape victims want to be the one in control of the act.  Maybe some of you think this is normal, and that's ok. Just for me I don't think it's pleasant. I told him all the women on the porn sites were getting paid to do it... .that didn't help. He told me that my body was his playground... .why I thought that was a nice comment back then, I don't know. He cheated on my at least 6 times that I know of... .I am sure there were more. I am sure it continues... .I am very lucky all my STD tests came back clean. I do no want to risk it again. I do not want to risk anything with him. He is very selfish in every way. Now ,if I ever initiated sex after his nagging me that I did not do it enough... .he would turn away and not be interested! Go figure.

[wakingfirst]

I want to add something here.  Despite his posturing and bed-hopping, my ex often does not enjoy sex at all.  I know this because he told me so, recently.  He became angry and agitated after telling me, which usually means what he said was true but it frightens him to have said it aloud.

He said that his performance anxiety is very high - so high that sometimes he is unable to climax at all.  He told me that when a woman grabs his cock, he is thrilled but also feels disturbed.  Because, he says, he feels he is ONLY a cock to her after that.  The rest of him becomes invisible.  He seemed very troubled by this.

I think back when we were together, when he told me I was too gentle and fragile for the world of sex, that he may have really been talking about himself.

In saying this I don't mean to demean my ex in any way at all.  I only mention it in case hearing it leads to an insight for anyone else, as to their partner or ex's sexual behavior. 

[thisworld]

For me, I feel all sexed out! I really have no interest and I have been a sexual person my whole life. Everything had to be such a big production. He watched so much porn that I think he believed that's how it is supposed to be. If I was't in the mood, which was only when he was raging drunk... He said I didn't love him. If I didn't shave my legs- I wasn't making an effort to be attractive to him. Everything was so dramatic. It was like we were in a movie... .It was ridiculous. I only denied him a few times in 9 years... .I think that I was always told that if you denied your husband, he would go elsewhere. Allot of good that did! Sometimes he would scare me... .he liked things weird at times. Not overly, but enough. When that movie "50 shades of gray" came out, he wanted to go see it. He told me that he thought he was like that guy. I wouldn't go see it with him. I am pretty sure the gf did. The awful thing is that I would love to be with someone who is happy having it once a week or something now... .I just can't imagine having to act like someone is the most wonderful lover in the world every day of the week. It's exhausting. I am going to put this out there... .Mine was into anal sex. He told me all young men like it... .It may be true. I have encountered it in my past, but not to the extent that he does. (and my old boyfriend turned out to be gay) He also insists that he was raped in his past. His Mother doesn't believe him and at this point I tend to agree  with her, even though I chose to believe him the whole marriage. Yet, why would someone who had been through that insist on it? There is also some gay tendencies that he has... .big time. I don't know of anyone he has been with, but there are boundaries he has crossed in that area that are really out there as well. Because of doing that for him, that was the cause of the surgery I had to have over Xmas. I had to do it before my good insurance was gone.(so I thought). He is telling me he doesn't do that anymore. I suppose she says no or he is lying. It just bothers me how he was so insistent and claiming to not do it now. I just am not sure how normal it is. My Dr. said it is a lifestyle choice, but she does not recommend it. I do not recommend it after all I have been through. I just still wonder how many men really want to do this? I have heard that allot of men wonder, but would never force someone. I also read that sometimes rape victims want to be the one in control of the act.  Maybe some of you think this is normal, and that's ok. Just for me I don't think it's pleasant. I told him all the women on the porn sites were getting paid to do it... .that didn't help. He told me that my body was his playground... .why I thought that was a nice comment back then, I don't know. He cheated on my at least 6 times that I know of... .I am sure there were more. I am sure it continues... .I am very lucky all my STD tests came back clean. I do no want to risk it again. I do not want to risk anything with him. He is very selfish in every way. Now ,if I ever initiated sex after his nagging me that I did not do it enough... .he would turn away and not be interested! Go figure.

Herodias, I'm sorry that you had to go through this and an operation. And I'm glad that your tests came back clean. I think, sometimes, in the midst of the chaos and drama, we tend to skip the most important aspects of our own lives and bodies, that is our own health. My ex had a rape story, too, which happened when he was in his twenties with a male friend.  It's sleep rape. I believe him but I also suspect that he wants to approach women in his life like that. This may be because of some trauma and abuse victims have difficulties with sexual boundaries sometimes - I don't know if this is exactly the case here or in your story though. My ex saw anal sex as the utmost form of female submission as he called it and when I asked him where these opinions came from or why he needed to think of sex in terms of submission, he said his father and his friends used to speak about this with these terms - famous journalists and intellectuals in my country. Scary really. But again, I don't know if he made it up right at that time or was telling the truth. I couldn't always distinguish with him. Plus he is in his mid-thirties so "this is what my father said" does not hold - given his stated beliefs of gender equality etc.

As for the "I'm not doing it anymore" thing, I think, again,  this may not be particular or specific to sex. My ex has done exactly the same with every single thing he thinks I may have a dissatisfaction with. I see it as a small way of emotional revenge or the mentality of a three-year old. It kind of says "look at what you are missing, I'm a good person now" to me; or I see it as an attempt to make me feel worthless "I've changed this for someone else." he has done this with quitting drugs, FB wars, basically with everything. And I don't believe it and also know that it's not true - in our case. 

Take good care of yourself,

[thisworld]

I want to add something here.  Despite his posturing and bed-hopping, my ex often does not enjoy sex at all.  I know this because he told me so, recently.  He became angry and agitated after telling me, which usually means what he said was true but it frightens him to have said it aloud.

He said that his performance anxiety is very high - so high that sometimes he is unable to climax at all.  He told me that when a woman grabs his cock, he is thrilled but also feels disturbed.  Because, he says, he feels he is ONLY a cock to her after that.  The rest of him becomes invisible.  He seemed very troubled by this.

I think back when we were together, when he told me I was too gentle and fragile for the world of sex, that he may have really been talking about himself.

In saying this I don't mean to demean my ex in any way at all.  I only mention it in case hearing it leads to an insight for anyone else, as to their partner or ex's sexual behavior. 

Wakingfirst, thank you for the input. My ex told me the same after we split up:)) I have always understood the absence/presence of sex along the axis of fear of abandonment and engulfment but I have started to think that he actually doesn't like it much when he feels safe. It's like this is a tool for him and he doesn't need it when he's OK.

I have also noticed something that's interesting. Whenever he experienced low self-worth (for instance a request to a friend was rejected or he fell out with someone etc) he would immediately want to have sex. It was systematic. And of course, there is no intimacy in this.

Stay strong,

[apollotech]

Hello All,

I don't have any examples of my own to relate here, I am truly sorry that each of you went through this with another human being. In reading these responses, to me anyway, there seems to be a consistent theme linking them all together. thisworld called it: intimacy issues, which, for a pwBPD, can quickly translate into engulfment issues. Some of the words used to describe the various acts spoken of in this thread---sadistic, controlling, rape, avoidant, demeaning, acts that caused shame, guilt, and/or embarrassment, etc.---are just the opposite of words that would be employed in describing a loving, close, intimate relationship. Just a thought.

[vortex of confusion]

Wakingfirst, thank you for the input. My ex told me the same after we split up:)) I have always understood the absence/presence of sex along the axis of fear of abandonment and engulfment but I have started to think that he actually doesn't like it much when he feels safe. It's like this is a tool for him and he doesn't need it when he's OK.

I have noticed similar patterns with my stbx. Sex was fine before we got married. Afterwards, it was like he didn't want it any more because we were expected to do it and there was no thrill of doing something that he shouldn't be doing. After we got married, he preferred to take care of things himself. I think that was because he could get his release without having to deal with real intimacy. There was no risk involved in self pleasure.

During one of the threesome encounters we had with another gentleman, I couldn't believe how excited and into this other person he was. It was like a kick in the gut. He wanted to do stuff like that yet acted like I wasn't even there. Luckily, the other person saw my hesitation and gave me a look that said, "It is okay. You can stop and I will have your back." That is what I did. I stopped and haven't looked back. It makes me sad that it took a man other than my husband to give me back my power. I know how messed up that sounds.

I have also noticed something that's interesting. Whenever he experienced low self-worth (for instance a request to a friend was rejected or he fell out with someone etc) he would immediately want to have sex. It was systematic. And of course, there is no intimacy in this.

I noticed something similar. My stbx wanted to have an open relationship. It started because I had an inappropriate conversation with a guy online. I told my stbx about it immediately because I felt horrible about it. He got all excited, wanted to read the exchange, and then proceeded to say, "Let's see other people." There was no "let's talk" or "this means that something is wrong". Nope, it was all about how much it turned him on. It was taboo.

I could always tell when one of his "friends" ghosted him or rejected him. He would throw a fit and demand that we be monogamous. He would want to have me all to himself and that would usually lead to having sex to seal the deal. The first couple of times he did that, I fell for it. After I figured out that his pattern was to behave like that after rejection, I stopped jumping through so many hoops. I wasn't looking for a bunch of random, multiple partners. I was wanting to have ONE friend. He tried to sabatoge that by being wishy washy in his desires based on whether or not he could find somebody else that he could get busy with. It was like he wanted to violate any boundary that I tried to have. I tried the open thing and he would try to sabatoge and violate my boundaries by demanding details. At the end, he could only get excited if I started talking about other men. At one point, he had me call him by another man's name.

That is so far outside of anything that I think is okay. It felt demeaning and disrespectful to both of us. When I would try to talk to him about it, he would say that he didn't need that and that I should stop it. I would stop and nothing would happen. It was like he was impotent or something. It was a mess because it was like he expected me to do it and would get upset whether I did or didn't. It was a no win situation for me. I am sure that he felt just as confused as I did. The problem is that we couldn't discuss it and he wouldn't bring it up in with his sex addiction 12 step sponsor. I encouraged counseling, but he didn't want to do that.

And, he would push stuff on me and I would ask him if it would violate his sobriety. He would convince me that he could do x, y, and z because blah, blah, blah. Even now, he doesn't see that talking to women on OKCupid and other sites could be violating his sobriety. I don't want any part of any of it. I just want to be with somebody that listens when I say no. I recently read about enthusiastic consent. If your partner doesn't give enthusiastic consent, then it is best to back off. In hindsight, even when I would say no, he would badger me until I gave in. I blamed myself for consenting to do the things that I did. Now, I am in a better place to see that I tried to to say no in a million different ways but he couldn't/wouldn't/didn't hear me.

[thisworld]

Vortex of Confusion hi,

I'm speechless. When I started this thread, I had no idea that certain things would be so common. I'm now feeling that every moment, probably every single moment of our intimate life was symptomatic of a disorder. I see in your stbx many behaviours of my ex and I think if I stayed with him, I would have seen even more behaviours.

After we got married, he preferred to take care of things himself. I think that was because he could get his release without having to deal with real intimacy. There was no risk involved in self pleasure.

This. We so had this as soon as we started co-habiting. And he would report to me with a boyish attitude (an embarrassed grin that some people here associated with shame). It was almost like he wanted a negative reaction from me, which I didn't give. In my opinion, one's relation with one's body is their matter and nobody can interfere with that. However, in this example, masturbation largely replaced what we shared between us and he started reporting how many times he did what where. I instinctively didn't react and then he stopped. I think if I had reacted with a boundary, it would have been badly busted.

It makes me sad that it took a man other than my husband to give me back my power. I know how messed up that sounds.

My heart goes out to you.  It didn't happen to me in this relationship but in a sexual context but I experienced similar things other contexts. I felt very lonely. Being grateful to a stranger when someone supposedly your nearest and dearest is there is a difficult feeling.

It was taboo.

My ex shared life experiences revolving around taboos. I don't know if his sexual boundaries are disorganized due to abuse, I don't know if he wanted to shock me or simply boast. I don't know if his attitude was shame based - he seemed to be enjoying these stories but that may be hiding something. I hope he finds solace and I hope others manage to protect themselves from him better than I did. 


That is so far outside of anything that I think is okay. It felt demeaning and disrespectful to both of us. When I would try to talk to him about it, he would say that he didn't need that and that I should stop it. I would stop and nothing would happen. It was like he was impotent or something. It was a mess because it was like he expected me to do it and would get upset whether I did or didn't. It was a no win situation for me. I am sure that he felt just as confused as I did. The problem is that we couldn't discuss it and he wouldn't bring it up in with his sex addiction 12 step sponsor. I encouraged counseling, but he didn't want to do that.

I recently read about enthusiastic consent. If your partner doesn't give enthusiastic consent, then it is best to back off. In hindsight, even when I would say no, he would badger me until I gave in.

This. The insistence. Bodily insistence. I think emotionally that changes the context very unexpectedly. That may be one of the reasons why we couldn't give the reactions we wanted maybe. Fight, flight, freeze. I sometimes freeze.

I'd like to ask your opinion about something. This is what I'm thinking nowadays. In general understanding, there is a certain hierarchy in abuse along the lines of emotional, physical, sexual. For instance, the law punishes the third more than the first and for instance, I'm blaming myself more for not reacting to sexual abuse. But I actually think emotional abuse, especially systematic and ambient things ma actually be as bad as one-time, more visible or stronger forms. So maybe, I was half-knowingly trying to avoid everything that would come after rejecting him - he was dependent on me and had really nowhere to go so probably sending him away there and then would not be an option. Even though I would have dealt with it differently today, I was drained at the time - he is also an active addict and we were constantly visiting hospitals for his anxiety attacks and many ailments. So maybe this sexual stuff and not fighting strongly actually felt less harmful than emotional abuse - in the end, he wasn't a stranger so probably this was easier to take. What do you think of this?   

[vortex of confusion]

So maybe this sexual stuff and not fighting strongly actually felt less harmful than emotional abuse - in the end, he wasn't a stranger so probably this was easier to take. What do you think of this?   

I think that gets at part of the reason that I did some of the things that I did. One, I wanted to save the marriage at all costs. We have 4 kids and had been together 15 years when the blatant violations began. For me, it was easier to give into the sexual stuff than it was to risk him being upset or frustrated. I knew that if I took care of him on a regular basis he would be easier to live with in the long run. He would be nicer to me and the kids.

He wasn't a stranger. I made vows to him in front of our friends and family in a church. I felt that it was my duty to be a good wife and take care of his physical needs. (Forget the fact that my physical needs were forgotten and/or ignored.) So, it all became about him so that I could keep the peace the easiest way I knew how. My stbx is not in your face abusive. What he does is more subtle and more crazy making. I have a hard time putting up with the nagging and pouting and subtle stuff.

When I would try to set boundaries like telling him I didn't want to talk about anything that I did with anybody else, he would get mad and throw a fit. I was able to keep that boundary. The boundary that it took me the longest to set was to cut him off. Being with my stbx in a physical manner was like doing the dishes. I have a couple of friends that I told about it and it became a bit of a joke between us because I had to zone out to take care of his physical needs. It was like doing the dishes. There was no emotion and no connection. It was soo much easier to do that than it was to try to say no.

To add another layer to what made it difficult for me to keep within my values and boundaries. . .when I had the inappropriate online conversation, I didn't have a job outside the house. All of my days were spent at home with kids. I had a difficult time even getting out of the house to go grocery shopping. I went on a mom's night out one time and he made a big deal about me being home on time, blah, blah, blah. When I made plans to see somebody else, he would go so far as to take off work so he could make sure that I didn't have to worry about anything. I wanted out. I wanted attention. I wanted to feel valued. He valued me when I did that. He wanted me when I did that stuff. If I didn't do that stuff, he didn't want me. He would go right back to ignoring me. He would argue all of this with me. Because all of this was kept so quiet and so secret, it is his word against mine.

When I finally did work up the nerve to stop doing the dishes, it was difficult. I knew I had to do it because I couldn't live with myself if I continued to try to have a relationship with two different people. That whole thing stopped working for me. I couldn't do the dishes any more. As long as I did whatever my stbx wanted, then I was free to pursue other men. Turns out, I only want ONE man and that is the man that gave me back my power. I will be forever grateful to him. He told me that he could see the fear and disgust and sadness in my eyes. In that moment, he saw everything that I had been hiding. My stbx was there so it wasn't like either of us could say anything out loud. In that moment, he looked into my eyes and told me with just his eyes and body language that it was okay to say no. I proceeded to get up. My stbx didn't even notice. It was the other guy that noticed and stopped and checked on me.

I don't know if that answers your question or not. I went off on a bit of a tangent because I still struggle to make sense out of of all of this. In his mind, my stbx wasn't violating anything. I said yes. I went along with it all. In some cases, I even suggested some stuff. I don't understand it. I am so glad that you started this thread.

[troisette]

Hello Thisworld

Thank you for your bravery in starting this thread. I can sense your sadness and regret.  Questioning your core values and self-worth.

"I have also noticed something that's interesting. Whenever he experienced low self-worth (for instance a request to a friend was rejected or he fell out with someone etc) he would immediately want to have sex. It was systematic. And of course, there is no intimacy in this."

Rape, or near-rape, is linked with control and power, using sex as the means.

I have not experienced sex being used in this way; I have, many years ago, experienced violence from my ex-husband (not BPD but definitely something amiss) - it was usually after he'd had a bad day at work, or if I'd been successful in my career. He needed to diminish me.

It sounds as if something like this was going on in your relationship. It's evident that you are a successful woman and that his life and career are not flourishing.

I also wonder if this is linked to childhood conditioning regarding your relationship with your mother?

Whatever the reason, it's obvious from your posts that you are an intelligent, insightful and empathic woman. Please be kind to yourself when examining this part of your life. You were vulnerable, neither shame or guilt are attributable to you.  

[thisworld]

Hello All,

I don't have any examples of my own to relate here, I am truly sorry that each of you went through this with another human being. In reading these responses, to me anyway, there seems to be a consistent theme linking them all together. thisworld called it: intimacy issues, which, for a pwBPD, can quickly translate into engulfment issues. Some of the words used to describe the various acts spoken of in this thread---sadistic, controlling, rape, avoidant, demeaning, acts that caused shame, guilt, and/or embarrassment, etc.---are just the opposite of words that would be employed in describing a loving, close, intimate relationship. Just a thought.

Thank you for your encouraging words Apollotech. And what you say is so true. No matter what the diagnoses or our ex people are, our own words show us that we did not find this behaviour "loving." Looking at our own wounds just tells us what was going on and it's good to remember that - as we tend to forget I reckon. And yes, this isn't intimacy. To me, it is kind of less heart-breaking when I take it out of that context. A bit of externalization also helps although I'm usually a great believer in looking at my role in things.

Again, thank you for your kind words.

[thisworld]

So maybe this sexual stuff and not fighting strongly actually felt less harmful than emotional abuse - in the end, he wasn't a stranger so probably this was easier to take. What do you think of this?   

I think that gets at part of the reason that I did some of the things that I did. One, I wanted to save the marriage at all costs. We have 4 kids and had been together 15 years when the blatant violations began. For me, it was easier to give into the sexual stuff than it was to risk him being upset or frustrated. I knew that if I took care of him on a regular basis he would be easier to live with in the long run. He would be nicer to me and the kids.

He wasn't a stranger. I made vows to him in front of our friends and family in a church. I felt that it was my duty to be a good wife and take care of his physical needs. (Forget the fact that my physical needs were forgotten and/or ignored.) So, it all became about him so that I could keep the peace the easiest way I knew how. My stbx is not in your face abusive. What he does is more subtle and more crazy making. I have a hard time putting up with the nagging and pouting and subtle stuff.

When I would try to set boundaries like telling him I didn't want to talk about anything that I did with anybody else, he would get mad and throw a fit. I was able to keep that boundary. The boundary that it took me the longest to set was to cut him off. Being with my stbx in a physical manner was like doing the dishes. I have a couple of friends that I told about it and it became a bit of a joke between us because I had to zone out to take care of his physical needs. It was like doing the dishes. There was no emotion and no connection. It was soo much easier to do that than it was to try to say no.

To add another layer to what made it difficult for me to keep within my values and boundaries. . .when I had the inappropriate online conversation, I didn't have a job outside the house. All of my days were spent at home with kids. I had a difficult time even getting out of the house to go grocery shopping. I went on a mom's night out one time and he made a big deal about me being home on time, blah, blah, blah. When I made plans to see somebody else, he would go so far as to take off work so he could make sure that I didn't have to worry about anything. I wanted out. I wanted attention. I wanted to feel valued. He valued me when I did that. He wanted me when I did that stuff. If I didn't do that stuff, he didn't want me. He would go right back to ignoring me. He would argue all of this with me. Because all of this was kept so quiet and so secret, it is his word against mine.

When I finally did work up the nerve to stop doing the dishes, it was difficult. I knew I had to do it because I couldn't live with myself if I continued to try to have a relationship with two different people. That whole thing stopped working for me. I couldn't do the dishes any more. As long as I did whatever my stbx wanted, then I was free to pursue other men. Turns out, I only want ONE man and that is the man that gave me back my power. I will be forever grateful to him. He told me that he could see the fear and disgust and sadness in my eyes. In that moment, he saw everything that I had been hiding. My stbx was there so it wasn't like either of us could say anything out loud. In that moment, he looked into my eyes and told me with just his eyes and body language that it was okay to say no. I proceeded to get up. My stbx didn't even notice. It was the other guy that noticed and stopped and checked on me.

I don't know if that answers your question or not. I went off on a bit of a tangent because I still struggle to make sense out of of all of this. In his mind, my stbx wasn't violating anything. I said yes. I went along with it all. In some cases, I even suggested some stuff. I don't understand it. I am so glad that you started this thread.

VortexofConfusion hi

Thanks again for sharing this and offering this perspective. It helps a lot. Saying no being difficult because of consequences resonates so much with me. The entire relationship was so energy-draining, it was physically very exhausting for me. So, I have learnt this about myself: I'm not as vigilant about my sexual boundaries as I think I would be in relationships that drain me. This is improvement for me because it is more positive than my initial overall anger, disappontment and shame with myself. This thread also helps me to move from shame to guilt and that's kind of lessening as well - though it may live with me for a bit:))

I think there is something in these relationships that cause us to acclimatize. I mean, everything was so out of the ordinary that it even didn't feel like these violations were coming from a healthy person, though it sure doesn't make it acceptable. Perhaps, just a bit more bearable, but that only sometimes.   

Thanks again for sharing. 

[thisworld]

Troisette hi

And thank you for your kind words. And everything rings so true.

Rape, or near-rape, is linked with control and power, using sex as the means.

This is how I look at it, too. Actually, as of now, I think in my ex's case, this may not even always be about controlling me. I mean, he had a habit of approaching me for sex during any experience of self-worth so who knows what was going on in his mind. Luckily, I feel that I don't need to learn that to feel better. Working on myself is empowering enough.

I have not experienced sex being used in this way; I have, many years ago, experienced violence from my ex-husband (not BPD but definitely something amiss) - it was usually after he'd had a bad day at work, or if I'd been successful in my career. He needed to diminish me.

I'm so sorry that you had to go through this.

It sounds as if something like this was going on in your relationship. It's evident that you are a successful woman and that his life and career are not flourishing.

Very interesting point. He used my career as a prize from a narcissistic perspective. He praised it a lot around other people - I personally didn't enjoy it much (I have been working on receiving complements better for a decade now:)) but I liked the fact that he recognized my work. Then my ideas about this changed.

After our relationship, I had a chance to see so much envy and hatred coming from him that I was shocked. At one point, he seemed to be obsessed with the fact that I own a house and he was shouting at me, insulting me for this - this, right after an attack from my NPD mother on the phone when I wasn't particularly strong felt so bad. I mean I didn't exactly expect empathy from him but it just made me think "Who are these people in my life?" At another point, my language skills became a subject of attack as I happened to have some pleasant conversation with an American woman. Basically, anything, anything that could be deemed slightly positive got mentioned in a negative way. I think my body image suffered from this and sex or emotional cheating became an area of control or power fight. I'm kind of immune to this sort of stuff thanks to my mother but feel bad when someone is trying to do this to me. Something inner is triggered and a little girl says "Why, oh why." This is from my childhood and luckily, I'm able to recognize it now. But this causes me to detach very quickly - and that's not actually bad, is it:))

Please be kind to yourself when examining this part of your life. You were vulnerable, neither shame or guilt are attributable to you.  love

Thank you so much Troisette.  I'll remember this