How to negotiate with an ex-partner with BPD

[tystMich]

Hi, I left my BPD girl friend of 10 years just over a year ago.

I have tried to minimise contact but during the autumn she has met me and it has always ended in arguments.

I have informed her that I am getting involved with someone else and that we need to sort out our economy - we own 2 properties together.

One of the reasons for my leaving is the total inability to get any agreement with my ex. on anything meaning that it is impossible to plan for a future.

Now that I am detached from her, we still have to reach an agreement on dividing/selling the properties. This is my problem - how can I negotiate with a person who will not negotiate - only dictate or defer?

I don´t want her to feel that I am trying to force her as that will just mean that she kicks back and is even more impossible to deal with.

Is it realistic to think this way at all? should I just engage a lawyer to take the fight to her? Her reasoning is not rational - more directed toward obstruction and damaging and doesn´t stand up to critical appraisal/law.

Any tips on how I should proceed to get a reasonable agreement for both parties?

[Teereese]

  tystMich,

Bring the fight to her. There is no negotiating and you realize this on some level. She is going to be argumentative regardless, so at least have your best interests covered.

In my own experience with my stbxBPDh, his idea of negotitating was he demand what he wanted and I just go along with his demands ... .no questions, no discussions; no logical or rational thinking or reasoning.

[iluminati]

The best way to do things is to keep things as narrowbore and simple as possible.  Instead of saying, to use your example, we need to sort out these properties, say something like we need to decide what we're going to do with the property taxes on one property.  Make the actions as clear and with as little subject to interpretation as humanly possible. 

For example, if I tell my ex-wife that I need her to drop my daughter at school on a particular date for a particular reason, I can usually work with her.  If I tell her we need to come up with a long term plan, she's worried that she'll end up being used as an actual pinata for the next Republican Party Presidential debate because she'll be forced to care for her child in absolute poverty while a parade of White women visit my place, cook for me and keep me in a constant orgy. 

Notice how the first option removes any opportunity for rumination and dysregulation.

[livednlearned]

Hi tystMich,

Any tips on how I should proceed to get a reasonable agreement for both parties?

Chances are that telling her you are involved with someone else will make your ex BPDgf very motivated to block you at every step. It might be easier to have things go through lawyers so she does not become motivated by direct conflict with you.

It's been my experience (with a very narcissistic type of BPD ex) that someone who wants to negatively engage will do things that hurt themselves if it means they can also hurt you. So even if your ex stands to gain from the sale of the properties, she may stonewall and delay and obstruct if it means she can stay connected to you in some way.

If your exBPDgf is low functioning and more prone to impulsive, dysregulating emotional behaviors, she may not have the wherewithal to cooperate simply because she is dealing with her emotional states and impulsivity and whatnot.

Either way, if you try to mediate, it helps to work with someone who understands PDs and knows how to apply leverage and communication/psychological skills to get the results you want.

My experience negotiating with my N/BPDx husband (former trial lawyer  ) taught me that it's less personal when you use a lawyer to communicate, though can also be emotionally triggering. If anything, it helped me lay low and not take as many bullets. I also learned to start with an unreasonable offer so that there was a lot of room to negotiate down to the reasonable endgame I figured we would eventually reach. And last, I learned to look for leverage because that was often the only thing that got him to comply.

I had a particularly high conflict ex, and learned (the hard way) that it was important to include consequences in all of the orders that were drafted. I'm not sure if this applies to your situation in practice, but perhaps it will be helpful in principle. Meaning, if your lawyer and her lawyer (if she has one) write up an agreement, make sure to include consequences for non-compliance. Otherwise, if you have to go to court, the judge may give her three or four chances to comply. If there is a consequence in the order and she doesn't comply, that helps the judge rule according to what the order says, not what he or she thinks is generous and fair. Because most people comply with court orders -- people with BPD have a hard time with that. You know that, and we know that, but the judge and many lawyers either don't know it, or don't care. It's no skin off their back if you return 3 or 4 time trying to get your ex to complete a simple transaction. So you have to insert your foresight into the process to protect yourself, and her to some extent, because she isn't likely to do what's best for herself if it means punishing you.

Also, along those lines, if there is a choice between who writes up the order or agreement, have it be your lawyer. It will cost you a little more money, but you can double and triple check the language to make sure it says what you want to say. No one, including either lawyer, will be paying that kind of attention to detail so it's up to you to take some measure of control over how things are worded.

You may want to read up on how to communicate with narcissists. That can help appeal to her need for validation through praise so that she can stand down and access more of her problem-solving abilities. Bill Eddy has some stuff on this on his website www.highconflictinstitute.com

[ForeverDad]

I have informed her that I am getting involved with someone else and that we need to sort out our economy - we own 2 properties together.

Sharing information is usually a good thing — in a relationship and with a reasonably normal person.  With the relationship over for a year then sharing information should be done only when necessary.  In this case that was probably TMI.  PwBPD are driven by emotional and mood extremes, there's just too much emotional baggage from the past decade for your logic to get past her distorted perceptions.  AS LnL wrote, it would be best to not share that sort of information with her, it could be too triggering.

One of the reasons for my leaving is the total inability to get any agreement with my ex... .  Any tips on how I should proceed to get a reasonable agreement for both parties?

As iluminati wrote, keep it as dull and unemotional as possible.  With two major investments in play, that may not work.  While you can start by making a simple and unemotional offer, it would also be wise to have an experienced lawyer in the background ready to step up and take over, probably sooner rather than later.  The lawyer ought to be able to keep it as a business matter.  You too need to keep it as businesslike as possible.  While courts can unwind a joint ownership, usually by forcing a sale, she can obstruct and delay it.

Restated... .Your leverage is the courts can eventually force a sale.  Her leverage is she can make it difficult with delays, counterclaims, etc.

Do you want them sold?  Would you like to sell your halves to each other and you each walk away with one property?

Be aware that your name in on any mortgage is a real risk you have to weigh carefully.  For example, she may want a quit claim deed that gives her ownership of one of the properties (and presumably you'd get the other).  But if you're on that mortgage, you have real financial risks.  For example she may say she will refinance in her name only, the legal documents may even state she must refinance.  But what if she doesn't for whatever reason?  Then you could end up on the hook for a mortgage on a property you no longer own.  You see, lenders don't care about promises to do something, they don't care who owns the property, they just want to know who to go after to get their money.  So if you're on a mortgage to a property she wants then never ever sign or hand over a quit claim deed until the mortgage is actually refinanced or paid off!  In my divorce the quit claim deed was handed over at the actual refinancing session and not before.

[iluminati]

Sorry for the late response. 

First, you definitely need to consult a lawyer, as real estate laws vary from state to state, and your options may vary.  What I would add is that whatever agreement you come to, you put an indemnification clause in there saying that once you sign over the property rights, she's responsible for any attached debts, tax issues, etc. 

I know why my ex, she had a history of tax problems, so I put that clause in there.  Apparently she'd rather duck taxes than pay for them.  Anyway, not long after she moved out, I got a $3000 bill from the IRS.  Long story short, my ex-wife was on disability but decides to go back to work.  One you work 9 months, the disability money is taxable, and she never gave me the paperwork for the taxes.  I was able to use that to get the IRS off of my back, though it's still working it's way through the system.

Simply put, you need to make it so that your ex can't just pawn off any problems on you.

[ForeverDad]

That sounds about right for tax issues and perhaps others.  Of course, we aren't lawyers here.

It has been expressed a number of times that mortgage lenders, vehicle lenders, etc may not care what a court ordered or what a settlement agreed upon.  If your name is on their contracts as a borrower, they can still come after you if the other fails to make payments or whatever.  Whether an assignment of responsibility works, I can't say.  Likely they would say, "your name is here, that's our bottom line, you are one of the borrowers, pay up and then you can try to get reimbursed from the other."  Well the problem is that we'd have to go back to court and it's very difficult to get a court to enforce an order or settlement.  Yes, you may be owed the reimbursement but can you get it from the other?

My point was to emphasize that the best way to avoid lenders coming after you is to make sure you never give up ownership (relinquished by quit claim deed) until the loan is actually refinanced.  A lawyer can keep the QCD in safekeeping if you won't be present and hand it over at the signing for the new mortgage.  It HAS to be a clean break.  Promises aren't enough.  And sadly even promises in paperwork isn't enough.

Usually that means determining what Leverage we have.  The pwBPD will drag his/her feet without incentive to comply or get it done.  In my case, my ex didn't get her marital equity (my leverage) until all the papers were signed.

[KaishaMikasa]

 tystMich,

Bring the fight to her. There is no negotiating and you realize this on some level. She is going to be argumentative regardless, so at least have your best interests covered.

In my own experience with my stbxBPDh, his idea of negotitating was he demand what he wanted and I just go along with his demands ... .no questions, no discussions; no logical or rational thinking or reasoning.

Totally agree with this statement.  I am divorcing my wife of 18 years and you need to run this like a military campaign.  It must be no quarter!  Attempting negotiation is basically trying to rationalize with an insane person.  Furthermore,  most of what they say is bluffing as they don't want to be exposed.