Non Characteristics

[Mr. Magnet]

I found this very insightful:

ipersonic.com/blog_files/How-to-make-a-Borderline-Relationship-work.html

Now you are probably thinking, “Who in the world would put up with a relationship like that?” I totally agree, that is obviously a fascinating question. At the latest after their borderline partner‘s second totally inappropriate blowup most people would probably tap their forehead and get the heck out of dodge. Still, many borderline patients live, and not just in short lived relationships! A very interesting book I recently discovered for myself, intensively deals with the personality of people who – and often repeatedly – fall in love with borderliners and even stay with them for good: “When loving hurts” (so far only available in German, sorry!). The author is Manuela Rösel, psychologist and pedagogue in Berlin who has lots of experience with borderline-patients. Among others, she identified the following characteristics their partners have in common:

1)  a disposition for altruistic surrender combined with the compulsion to make others happy at their own expense

2)  an inability to recognize their own needs

3)  exaggerated indulgence

4)  perfectionism and extreme commitment (associated with the idea that “love must be earned”), the inability to make mistakes or to fail

5)  the inability to set clear boundaries and to defend them

6)  the conviction that nothing one does on one’s own is good enough

7)  exaggerated sense of responsibility and conscientiousness extending as far as the helper-syndrome (“I must save him/her from him/herself”).

The insidiousness of all these characteristics ensuring that the borderliner and his/her partner fit together like hand in glove in their needs and characteristics lies in the fact that all of this supports the continuation of borderline-disorder’s instead of counteracting it. A conflict-capable partner with a sound sense of self-esteem, firmly confronting him/her who would be able to handle the threat of emotional blackmail and the withdrawal of love, would be much more beneficial to the borderline patient. He/her would give him/her an opportunity to learn new and more constructive behavior patterns that would then also positively impact his/her other social relationships. In addition to an incredible level of emotional stability such a partner must also command a high emphatically active ability to communicate. So as not to be entrapped to reacting to the triggers of the temper tantrum, as for instance not getting involved in the justification drama à la “I know you are cheating me!” – “no, I am not!” – “yes, I know you are!” ad infinitum, he/she must be able to look at the underlying causes and respond on the meta level: “Is it possible that you feel very sad/angry/helpless right now? Tell me how I can help you to feel better.”

>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>

The second section I bolded seems theoretical and pie in the sky to me.  What emotionally healthy person with good self esteem and boundaries would put up with borderline antics?

[blackbirdsong]

I found this very insightful:

ipersonic.com/blog_files/How-to-make-a-Borderline-Relationship-work.html

Now you are probably thinking, “Who in the world would put up with a relationship like that?” I totally agree, that is obviously a fascinating question. At the latest after their borderline partner‘s second totally inappropriate blowup most people would probably tap their forehead and get the heck out of dodge. Still, many borderline patients live, and not just in short lived relationships! A very interesting book I recently discovered for myself, intensively deals with the personality of people who – and often repeatedly – fall in love with borderliners and even stay with them for good: “When loving hurts” (so far only available in German, sorry!). The author is Manuela Rösel, psychologist and pedagogue in Berlin who has lots of experience with borderline-patients. Among others, she identified the following characteristics their partners have in common:

1)  a disposition for altruistic surrender combined with the compulsion to make others happy at their own expense

2)  an inability to recognize their own needs

3)  exaggerated indulgence

4)  perfectionism and extreme commitment (associated with the idea that “love must be earned”), the inability to make mistakes or to fail

5)  the inability to set clear boundaries and to defend them

6)  the conviction that nothing one does on one’s own is good enough

7)  exaggerated sense of responsibility and conscientiousness extending as far as the helper-syndrome (“I must save him/her from him/herself”).

The insidiousness of all these characteristics ensuring that the borderliner and his/her partner fit together like hand in glove in their needs and characteristics lies in the fact that all of this supports the continuation of borderline-disorder’s instead of counteracting it. A conflict-capable partner with a sound sense of self-esteem, firmly confronting him/her who would be able to handle the threat of emotional blackmail and the withdrawal of love, would be much more beneficial to the borderline patient. He/her would give him/her an opportunity to learn new and more constructive behavior patterns that would then also positively impact his/her other social relationships. In addition to an incredible level of emotional stability such a partner must also command a high emphatically active ability to communicate. So as not to be entrapped to reacting to the triggers of the temper tantrum, as for instance not getting involved in the justification drama à la “I know you are cheating me!” – “no, I am not!” – “yes, I know you are!” ad infinitum, he/she must be able to look at the underlying causes and respond on the meta level: “Is it possible that you feel very sad/angry/helpless right now? Tell me how I can help you to feel better.”

>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>

The second section I bolded seems theoretical and pie in the sky to me.  What emotionally healthy person with good self esteem and boundaries would put up with borderline antics?

This is totally true.

I have every single characteristic that is listed. And I am working on this in therapy.

And know what? Why do we have problems with BPD partners?

Because we gave them control - by doing all the listed things we feed BPD even more. We gave them control, and they are scared of control, they think that they want it but they are scared of it when they get it.

And I really think that there are BPDs with less dramatic relationships, people who don't visit bpdfamily and similar sites because they are in the relationship with enmotionaly more stable persons.

I completely agree with the opinion that BPDs really benefit from strong partners that claim firm boundaries. Not narcissistic boundaries that exploit BPD, but firm boundaries that respect BPD but also non-BPD person. I read ton of papers that support this statement, that is defined in your post.

This is also something that influences my healing. I still think "we" can succeed.

Honestly, I really think that I triggered her BPD even more, by being extremely codependent.

Not that I blame myself for this, she has BPD and she is responsible for her behavior. But she is aware of it, and works on it, but I need to work on my issues also.

And this is something that many people here don't understand and won't accept.

It takes two to tango.

I mean, you don't need to end up again with your BPD partner, but you need to work on your inner self after the relationship with BPD.

[Mr. Magnet]

If a BPD is in a more stable relationship, I think that would have more to do with them having a milder form of the disorder, coupled with someone with emotional health and boundaries.

But for BPDs who rage and verbally abuse, I have a hard time believing they can find some ideal non who will essentially take on the role of parenting them.

I always felt I had 2 choices with my ex.

eat s**t or run.  If i ever tried to assert my rights or put up some semblance of a boundary, I paid a serious price.

I'd love to read a stat on "successful" relationships with BPDs and emotionally healthy nons.

I suspect it's very rare.

Of course this entire discussion makes me regret that I couldn't do a better job as I worry that there may be someone out there who could better handle her.  She is so alpha and aggressive though it seems unlikely.

[circularref]

The second section I bolded seems theoretical and pie in the sky to me.  What emotionally healthy person with good self esteem and boundaries would put up with borderline antics?

Yes I agree. The people described in the second section would simply not be interested in pwBPD. In fact, my friends that are like this were the ones that were the least impressed by my BPDex.

[once removed]

If i ever tried to assert my rights or put up some semblance of a boundary, I paid a serious price.

can you give an example? in my relationship, on a couple of issues i backed down, only to assert myself later; a person with BPD will tend to react far more strongly toward boundaries set after the fact.

[Rmbrworst]

All of its true and it's been a huge learning experience.

You have to have such a strong sense of self, and you must have extremely firm boundaries.  This means, you will have to accept being discarded and pushed away, and it also means you will most likely be put in positions where you say "I will not allow this behavior.", and you will suffer the fallout for not allowing them to walk all over you.

I wish I had set better boundaries and I wish I never ignored the warning signs, but I had a huge desire to "save" him.  I've learned that it's not healthy to save others, especially at the sacrifice of yourself.

The difference between myself and my exBPD is I have taken responsibility for myself and I am now in therapy and learning to change my behavior so that I can have healthy relationships in the future.

My exBPD has run away and will not take responsibility for his actions or behavior.  He refuses therapy and he will be this way for the rest of his life if he will not come to terms with his issues.

I used to long for him and wish for him back.  I no longer feel this way, but the care giver side of me still wishes very much that he would help himself and make healthy choices, but it's his life and I cannot be the one to save him.  

He must save himself.

Its hard for me because with my other ex boyfriends we remained friends and have a great love for one another that's formed into a friendship.  I can't have that relationship with my exBPD and I would love to talk to him just to see how he's doing and give him some support with what he's going though, but again ... .that's just my care taking side and I can't force him to speak to me, and I can't put myself in the head space of always having to "help" him.  It's hard to tell myself but it's essential that I do so I can have fulfilling relationships.

Good read.  Thanks for sharing

[Rmbrworst]

But for BPDs who rage and verbally abuse, I have a hard time believing they can find some ideal non who will essentially take on the role of parenting them.

Of course this entire discussion makes me regret that I couldn't do a better job as I worry that there may be someone out there who could better handle her.  She is so alpha and aggressive though it seems unlikely.

I can relate to everything you said.  Would someone with firm boundaries and sense of self out up with their crap?  More likely than not they would just leave them.  I can't see a sane normal person putting up with this junk. 

I also feel regret.  I feel like if I had the strength I do now, maybe we could have lasted.

But then again, I remember the lies, the cheating, the manipulation, and now that I'm feeling much healthier, I think to myself "No way I would put up with that!"

So if I had a "retry" with him and I was in the healthier mindset that I am in now.  I WOULD HABE LEFT A LONG TIME AGO!

[Infern0]

In most cases the person who gets involved and stays with a borderline is codependent. Usually unknowingly.

I agree in theory that someone who either isn't codependent or has worked through it would be better suited to handle a BPD relationship, however as the op said, that person would likely exit the relationship rather quickly. There isn't anything wrong with trying to help someone who needs help or trying to be a supportive partner, but when its not appreciated or the bad behavior continues, if you love and value yourself you will walk.

BPD relationships are toxic, unhealthy and built on dishonesty. There is little there for an emotionally healthy , self aware person.

[Lucky Jim]

In most cases the person who gets involved and stays with a borderline is codependent. Usually unknowingly.

Agree, InfernO.  Most Nons have codependent tendencies, in my view, because otherwise they wouldn't be in a r/s with a pwBPD, as you note.  And care taking a pwBPD can go on indefinitely, because their needs are endless.  I always thought that I would reach this plateau of stability with my BPDxW, which never happened.  The roller coaster just keeps going on the same track, over and over.

You could say that a BPD r/s is the crucible for confronting one's own codependency, which isn't such a bad thing except for the pain.

LuckyJim

[Infern0]

In most cases the person who gets involved and stays with a borderline is codependent. Usually unknowingly.

Agree, InfernO.  Most Nons have codependent tendencies, in my view, because otherwise they wouldn't be in a r/s with a pwBPD, as you note.  And care taking a pwBPD can go on indefinitely, because their needs are endless.  I always thought that I would reach this plateau of stability with my BPDxW, which never happened.  The roller coaster just keeps going on the same track, over and over.

You could say that a BPD r/s is the crucible for confronting one's own codependency, which isn't such a bad thing except for the pain.

LuckyJim

How many can relate to this thought

"If i can just get this to work, i'll be happy"

That was my thinking for so long at the start, and that was before i was aware of the many other issues and incorrect thought processes I had.

These relationships provide us with a look in the mirror, and it's deeply unpleasant, but it really is a blessing in disguise. Even though i've been in and out for the last 12 months i've still seen the most personal growth in my entire life, and there is a lot more to come.

It's up to the non though, the worst thing you can do is just fall into hatred and despair and then eventually "get over it" but have not learned anything, your just asking for it to happen again.

[once removed]

It's up to the non though, the worst thing you can do is just fall into hatred and despair and then eventually "get over it" but have not learned anything, your just asking for it to happen again.

thats a really succinct way of putting the way i coped with every breakup until part way into recovering from my uBPDex. it was alarming to realize how twisted my thinking was, but so incredibly freeing in so many ways. great way to put it.

[Infern0]

It's up to the non though, the worst thing you can do is just fall into hatred and despair and then eventually "get over it" but have not learned anything, your just asking for it to happen again.

thats a really succinct way of putting the way i coped with every breakup until part way into recovering from my uBPDex. it was alarming to realize how twisted my thinking was, but so incredibly freeing in so many ways. great way to put it.

Me too, My break up with my NPD 5 years ago being the worst, i was in tremendous pain but i just shut myself away from the world, played video games and ate junk food for 6 months until i could "function" again, and then re-entered the world even more damaged than before

not good.

[Turkish]

How many can relate to this thought

"If i can just get this to work, i'll be happy"

Though I probably felt in the beginning, "I can be the man she finally can trust"--- certainly a one-down position in which to place myself--- as the r/s progressed, I became more frustrated by expecting her to basically grow up. The r/s behind closed doors was very different than that which was portrayed to the outside world.

After everything, my T suggested that a lot of my anger stemmed from expecting her to be someone she was not. That turned it back to me. Unrealistic expectations are a relationship killer. She had them of me as well. We both fought each other in this as something like a Cold War scenario.

Leave aside BPD, or co-dependency (an over-used "diagnosis" of most of us, IMO), and I think that these unhealthy dynamics apply to a lot of failed relationships. Now my ex is experiencing a similar dynamic with her husband.

If I could sum it up: "I expect you to be this, but you're that. You're obviously not this, but I'm going to continue beating my head against the wall expecting you to be that."

Cue dysfunction.