Sexual Triangulation & How do you

[JQ]

Hello Group,

Reading post after post in all the forums in part trying to educate myself in all things BPD, human behavior and NONs thoughts and behaviors ... .I wanted to ask a question

I've read more then a few post here that the NON was replaced ... .that the BPD had their replacement already lined up before they walked away and put you in a time out, or you went NC ... .I judge no one for their answers whatever they might be.

I myself  have had a couple of exBPDgfs and I too was in more then one sex triangle when I dated them ... .the first one I young & wasn't ware of BPD.  The second one I dated I was a few years older and she in fact told me she was BPD. And at one point when we were talking about "our relationship" I told her I love her and wanted things to work. She told me she knew that and knew I wanted a monogamous relationship ... .but in the same breath look right at me and told me, "I don't want to hurt you anymore, I can't promise you I won't have a sexual triangle on you anymore".

So in my desire to learn more about the NONs who love their BPD, I was hoping that you would give me feedback as to why YOU would accept the sexual triangulation with your BPD and stay in the relationship?

-Is it that you hope that they will come back to their "senses" knowing how much you love them no matter what "unconditional love" and will forgive them for their continued transgressions?

-Is it that you might choose to be blissfully unaware or choose not to go there hoping that they will choose you over them? Not to be alone?

-Is it that you know they are mentally / behaviorally ill and aren't responsible for their actions and you want to continue to work towards saving them?

-Is it that you stay together for the children regardless of what you BPD does to give them a home with both parents?

-Is it that you accept their behavior as part of being in the relationship with them and are willing to live this type of lifestyle?

Again no judging from me ... .I'm having a open dialog conversation to educate myself and others who would like to join ... .

J

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[Jessica84]

Personally I wouldn't accept a love triangle situation. Too big a boundary for me.

While we non's might dismiss or excuse some behaviors as BPD, we still have to honor our own values. The behaviors I can dismiss don't violate those values (like screaming into the phone while road raging on someone else) - not too pleasant, but I can simply pull the phone away from my ear. The behaviors I can't excuse do violate my values (like screaming at ME) - I'd have to hang up or walk away. It's all about boundaries and knowing what you can and cannot accept.

pwBPD aren't off the hook simply because of their illness. That's enabling. They are always responsible for their actions. Just as we're responsible for our reactions.

[Grey Kitty]

The phrase triangle pretty much implies triangulation and a lot of unhealthy stuff along with it.

My history has been that a romantic relationship with a pwBPD is unstable and not anything I would enter into again willingly.

That said, I've been in a non-monogamous marriage and I would do that again. Just not with a pwBPD. The speed at which chaos and drama is created is higher and worse with a third person. I'd also add that if the pwBPD is choosing another person to get involved with... .they are likely to pick somebody messed up too!

If my values included monogamy, I wouldn't drop that upon request of my partner.

[babyducks]

HI JQ,

So in my desire to learn more about the NONs who love their BPD, I was hoping that you would give me feedback as to why YOU would accept the sexual triangulation with your BPD and stay in the relationship?

The short answer is I don't.       Would never consider it actually.   

One of our senior members said this in another thread and I am going to borrow it.

As great as it is to read and relate to other's stories, it can be easy to extrapolate patterns of behavior and retroactively apply them to your relationship... .  As there are common traits amongst BPD sufferers, you have to remember everyone has different traits. Inferences about individual behavior drawn from a group is an ecological fallacy.  Try not to fall in that trap.

Within the common traits of this disorder there is room for individual expression.   One size does not fit all.   My partner does not express her unstable behavior through multiple partners or abrupt disconnects in the relationship.  Not all pwBPD self harm.   Not all pwBPD have problems with addictions.   Some pwBPD are comorbid with other mental health issues.    It's a spectrum disorder and everyone is somewhere on that spectrum.

does that make sense?

'ducks

[waverider]

Care must be taken with the word triangulation so as not to confuse it with competing for the same "prize' or best deal.

Take the sexual element out of it and use a business contract as an analogy: A client comparing the offers of two contractors to build a project for them will compare the two and pit one against the other to get a best offer. This is not triangulation simply competitive manipulation. Neither contractor is a persecutor or rescuer, they are just competitors

Triangulation as we use it here refers to a "victim" painting person A as a persecutor to a rescuer B. This does not become a triangle until the relationship between A and B sours as B's opinion starts to be tainted against A as a result of the perceived persecutions claimed by the victim. A and B otherwise would have had no issue between them. Hence this closes the drama triangle. The triangle in this case is not always static and can spin around the other way involving role reversals.

More on Triangulation HERE

[JQ]

Hey Group,

Good start to the conversation but some things are in need of adjusting and or expanded on.

In this scenario ... .the NON is in a relationship that includes a sexual relationship with a BPD. The BPD you're involved with cannot promise to be in a monogamous relationship with you but you accept the relationship as it is. Due in part of their "engulfment fear" they will "date" or "see" "insert your term here" to limit or reduce this fear of "engulfment". Your BPD is reducing their fear of "not being alone" at any time but at the same time also reducing their fear of "engulfment" from anyone person.

I hope that clarifies the scenario ... .

@Babyducks, I completely understand what your saying. I accept that nothing in life is black or white and that there are as many shades of grey besides 50   I've always said that no two people with or without BPD are exactly alike and certainly didn't want to express that everyone with BPD are created equal in certain behavior.  This series of questions is for just one facet of BPD and for those who have or are currently living the situation AND would like to pursue a conversation on it.

@Waverider,  the title of the conversation is Sexual triangulation ... .I suppose I could call it something else but it seem to fit for simplicity purposes of the conversation once I expanded on the scenario.  I understand what you're saying about "competing for the same prize." But this isn't about competition ... .the questions are directed at people who knowing are in a relationship with their BPD partner and accept the situation as it is for one of reasons describe or something completely different as Grey Kitty has mentioned.  

This scenario would have the BPD spending time with person A for a night or several then going to person B within several days or a couple of weeks to spend time with them. This scenario would have the BPD avoiding two basic fears for them ... ."engulfment & being alone" and why the NON would accept this particular dynamic relationship.  If there is another term how to describe this that would be more acceptable I would ... .but it's not about the title of the scenario but the scenario in it's entirety that I'm more interested in. That's all.

Example: I know a female who lives with person (A) "not officially married" for 18 years, they go to events, share life, the house, normal day to day life things. But apparently there has been no sexual intimacy for years. Person (A) has accepted that she can have sexual encounters with person (B) or others as long as she doesn't bring it home. Certainly an interesting dynamic relationship out of bounds from "society norms." No this situation doesn't describe me ... .all are third parties involved.

Thank you for your conversation inputs so far ... .please continue

J

[Grey Kitty]

Is this a past situation or otherwise hypothetical one, or something you have to deal with today?

If I were to advise, I would want to know more... .but so far it sounds like the kind of relationship I wouldn't get into. Choices about staying or getting out are a lot more complicated.

[JQ]

Is this a past situation or otherwise hypothetical one, or something you have to deal with today?

If I were to advise, I would want to know more... .but so far it sounds like the kind of relationship I wouldn't get into. Choices about staying or getting out are a lot more complicated.

Hi Grey Kitty,

This is VERY much a hypothetical situation !  I'm a life long student of human behavior and this HYPOTHETICAL scenario came to mind after reading different post from others from different forums here. It combination of several things that I've read and does not reflect any ONE person, situation or post.  Each person has their own limits of what is and isn't acceptable to them and their lifestyle and or relationship. Given the anonymity of this sight I believed it would allow people to really think about it & to be more forth coming in what each one of their limits might be in this given hypothetical scenario.

so to recap ... .

the questions are directed at people who knowing / unknowing / thinking about / actually in OR  not actually in a relationship with their BPD partner and accept the situation as it is for one reason listed up or something else completely different.  

This scenario would have the BPD who has their own apartment spending time with person A apt for a night or several then going to person B apt within several days or a couple of weeks to spend time with them all while having their own apartment SO the BPD has three places to actually stay any given night as they choose. Never really committing to either A or B. This scenario would have the BPD avoiding two basic fears for them ... ."engulfment & being alone" and why the NON would accept this particular dynamic relationship.  

Thanks for the input GK ... .please continue with the discussion

JQ

[ColdEthyl]

@JQ

I'll throw my name into this hat. When my husband and I started dating, we both had recently separated from other people. And when I say recent... .I mean for him it was about 3 days.

I didn't know anything about BPD then, or that I was co-defendant, or any of these things. What ended up happening was a triangle situation that you are describing for about 10 months.

We were dating, and I knew he was still confused/trying to sort out what he wanted. I knew he was seeing both of us, and I accepted it because we were just dating. I could have went and seen someone else if I wanted, but I didn't want to.

Now today, 6 years later... .no. I would not get into that. I am serially monogamous, and I do expect the same as he is full aware. Once that commitment was made... .it's a done deal. I'm always aware that day may come... .he might do something stupid because he likes the attention, it feeds his ego, etc etc and I'll have some tough decisions then.

But no... .I won't be in a triangle. (the way it's described by OP)

[Grey Kitty]

Today my hypothetical answer is... .

I would accept a relationship where both I and my partner can have other sexual partners.

Otoh, I would not enter in a hypothetical relationship of an conceivable geometry with a pwBPD!

[Notwendy]

I think any combination of things is possible in any relationship.

However, a pw BPD doesn't have license to be unaccountable for their actions or not have to deal with other people's boundaries. Any relationship decisions need to be mutually agreed upon. If boundaries are agreed on, and the pw BPD breaks them- then the NON would have to make choices according to his/her principals.

[JQ]

Hi Group,

Let me tweak this conversation a little again. The purpose of this discussion is ABOUT the NON & what would they accept given the parameters below.

This is NOT about the behavior or boundaries placed on the BPD or whether they remain in those boundaries.   

The questions are directed at NONs who knowing / unknowing / thinking about / actually in OR not actually in a relationship with their BPD partner and accept the situation as it is for one reason listed up or something else completely different. 

This scenario would have the BPD who has their own apartment spending time with person A apt for a night or several then going to person B apt within several days or a couple of weeks to spend time with them all while having their own apartment SO the BPD has three places to actually stay any given night as they choose. Never really committing to either A or B. This scenario would have the BPD avoiding two basic fears for them ... ."engulfment & being alone" and why the NON would accept this particular dynamic relationship. 

Again, it's about the NON, & any feedback as to why YOU would accept the sexual triangulation with your BPD and stay in the relationship?

-Is it that you hope that they will come back to their "senses" knowing how much you love them no matter what "unconditional love" and will forgive them for their continued transgressions?

-Is it that you might choose to be blissfully unaware or choose not to go there hoping that they will choose you over them? Not to be alone?

-Is it that you know they are mentally / behaviorally ill and aren't responsible for their actions and you want to continue to work towards saving them?

-Is it that you stay together for the children regardless of what you BPD does to give them a home with both parents?

-Is it that you accept their behavior as part of being in the relationship with them and are willing to live this type of lifestyle?

Thank you ... .discuss among yourself & please continue the conversation.

J

[JQ]

@JQ

I'll throw my name into this hat. When my husband and I started dating, we both had recently separated from other people. And when I say recent... .I mean for him it was about 3 days.

I didn't know anything about BPD then, or that I was co-defendant, or any of these things. What ended up happening was a triangle situation that you are describing for about 10 months.

We were dating, and I knew he was still confused/trying to sort out what he wanted. I knew he was seeing both of us, and I accepted it because we were just dating. I could have went and seen someone else if I wanted, but I didn't want to.

Now today, 6 years later... .no. I would not get into that. I am serially monogamous, and I do expect the same as he is full aware. Once that commitment was made... .it's a done deal. I'm always aware that day may come... .he might do something stupid because he likes the attention, it feeds his ego, etc etc and I'll have some tough decisions then.

But no... .I won't be in a triangle. (the way it's described by OP)

Cold Ethel,

Thank you for your input. So if I understand you correctly your answer is a combination of 2 given I believe. They would be,

-Is it that you accept their behavior as part of being in the relationship with them and are willing to live this type of lifestyle."

-Is it that you hope that they will come back to their "senses" knowing how much you love them no matter what "unconditional love" and will forgive them for their continued transgressions?

Although this was a dating scenario, you would not currently accept it giving your serially monogamous marriage ideals.

Thank you for being candid & honest, it's appreciated.

J

[ColdEthyl]

@JQ

I'll throw my name into this hat. When my husband and I started dating, we both had recently separated from other people. And when I say recent... .I mean for him it was about 3 days.

I didn't know anything about BPD then, or that I was co-defendant, or any of these things. What ended up happening was a triangle situation that you are describing for about 10 months.

We were dating, and I knew he was still confused/trying to sort out what he wanted. I knew he was seeing both of us, and I accepted it because we were just dating. I could have went and seen someone else if I wanted, but I didn't want to.

Now today, 6 years later... .no. I would not get into that. I am serially monogamous, and I do expect the same as he is full aware. Once that commitment was made... .it's a done deal. I'm always aware that day may come... .he might do something stupid because he likes the attention, it feeds his ego, etc etc and I'll have some tough decisions then.

But no... .I won't be in a triangle. (the way it's described by OP)

Cold Ethel,

Thank you for your input. So if I understand you correctly your answer is a combination of 2 given I believe. They would be,

-Is it that you accept their behavior as part of being in the relationship with them and are willing to live this type of lifestyle."

-Is it that you hope that they will come back to their "senses" knowing how much you love them no matter what "unconditional love" and will forgive them for their continued transgressions?

Although this was a dating scenario, you would not currently accept it giving your serially monogamous marriage ideals.

Thank you for being candid & honest, it's appreciated.

J

Well, as stated I didn't know about BPD then, so I didn't really think of it in terms of acceptable behavior because of his illness, and that he would 'come to his senses'. I did hope that he might decide he wanted an exclusive relationship with me at some point, which he did. He knows the score... .and I know the score. There's always the chance he *might* do these things (to be honest, it can happen with anyone, BPD or not) and really that's a loaded question. Nothing is as ever black/white and people would like them to be. Situation and intent orchestrates the response.

[Herodias]

Mine once told me if I would just stop investigating everything we would be just fine. Meaning, if I would ignore his affairs, we would be fine! He even had the nerve to ask me to take him back after he got another woman pregnant and even said I could be part of the babies life when I didn't take him back! Yes, I wish he would tell me he made a big mistake and wants me and not her... .in some ways he said that, but not how I want to hear it. It's only to feed my ego though as I know I cannot live with this. I wish I had not accepted the behavior for as long as I did! I would have ended up alone anyway as that was part of his "plan for me"... .I cannot forgive him unfortunately. I did it for way too long already.

[iluminati]

Would I do that personally?  No.  But I also know that non-monogamy is a Thing, and it works for some.  If someone is somehow managing their relationship with a pwBPD on a level they can handle, and is interested in non-monogamy, more power to them.  Some things are good or bad on their merits, not because of BPD.

[vortex of confusion]

I want to weigh in on this discussion as I have some experience with non-monogamy. It doesn't work with a pwBPD.

My story is that things weren't ok at home. I had an inappropriate conversation with somebody online. I told my stbx about it almost immediately and instead of getting upset or seeing it as a red flag that things were terribly amiss in our relationship, he saw it as an opportunity to say, "Let's see other people."

So, I went along with it. Both of us posted some ads and talked to other people. I tended to find ONE person that I could talk to and spend time with whereas he talked to a whole lot of people but had problems finding people to actually meet up with on a regular basis. It was basically dating while married. It wasn't what I would consider ethical because of how things were approached. There was no real rhyme or reason and he wanted to change the rules willy nilly based on how he was feeling. I went along with it and tolerated it because I thought that maybe it would breathe some life into our relationship. I went along with it because I wanted to keep the family together. I went along with it because I was in denial. I went along with it because it was fun for a little bit (I got to get out of the house.) And, I went along with it because it sure did help his mood when he would make a new contact. I know all of those reasons are completely bogus. They are what they are.

If I had it to do all over again, I think I would have ended the relationship the minute he said "Let's see other people." In all that time, he met up with one chick and had relations with her in the woods. He had another one that he had lunch with and another one that he had breakfast with. There may have been a few others that he met up with once but they ghosted him shortly after. I think that was another reason I tolerated some of it. I kind of knew that he wasn't going to be able to find anybody else for any length of time.

I tried to be okay with it because my goal was to find a way to keep the family together because we have kids together.

The only way I could ever be in a non-monogamous situation again is to have it be with a person that is healthy, respects boundaries, and doesn't lie or deceive. My stbx would change the rules as he went along based on whether or not he had some kind of supply. If he was being ghosted, he was a jerk and would pledge his love to me and tell me that he was done. (I fell for it the first couple of times.) The minute I wouldn't behave the way he wanted me to, he would be back to posting ads and looking for new supply and would be happy as could be when he found somebody. He would talk about them like they were his new best friend and that they had soo much in common. It was hurtful and I tolerated all of that for 2 or 3 years before I got fed up and said no more.  

Edited to add: He is a sex addict on top of all of that. He hasn't stopped anything. I have ended the relationship and am waiting for him to move out.