Looking for advice and comment on new communication pattern

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

So, you guys know me.  Sometimes you have to knock me in the head a few times to open my eyes a bit.

There was a consistent message my wife was sending me about needing space and many of you pointed that out.  So, I have backed off.  I am aware of the temp in the r/s but I don't "check it".

There have been some limited talks but nothing about r/s stuff.  Even the nuts and bolts stuff gets weird.  Stuff like putting up shelving.

So, we seem to be developing a pattern of her not talking in person and then communicating to me via text.  Especially to express disappointment or upsetness (like about shelving).  Note:  We have had multiple in person talks about shelving.  It's a work in progress.  If her desire is for me to snap my fingers and "poof" there is a gorgeous laundry room, well, I don't have any poof.

For those interested in nuts and bolts.  Much to my dismay, there is not much rough cut pine around here.  I normally bring it home, plane it and use it.  So, I have been getting plywood cut and installing it with a dura-track type of system.  Listen, my wife loves this house, but we are severely lacking in storage.  So I am creating it so we can be organized.

Eventually there will be a combination of either painted plywood with melamine edging, or perhaps I will cover everything with a laminate.  Cost of doing it the way I am doing it is about 1/4 the cost of purchasing a melamine shelf at Lowes.  Yes, you read that right 1/4 the cost and eventually, I believe I will have a better product.

All of this has been explained and I have heard my wife say "ok".  Other times she will say "It's not worth talking to you anyway, "  and other variations.

My nature:  If I get a clear, actionable answer from my wife, that usually happens.  I rarely get a clear answer.  So, there is validation of "I do what I want, "  To me, I ask, she gives word salad, I ask for clarification, receive none and I go about my business.  I have no history to support me throwing more energy down the hole of "I want something from him but I'm not going to answer or tell him what I want"

Text exchange coming in a minute for review and comment.

FF

[formflier]

So, you guys know me.  Sometimes you have to knock me in the head a few times to open my eyes a bit.

There was a consistent message my wife was sending me about needing space and many of you pointed that out.  So, I have backed off.  I am aware of the temp in the r/s but I don't "check it".

There have been some limited talks but nothing about r/s stuff.  Even the nuts and bolts stuff gets weird.  Stuff like putting up shelving.

So, we seem to be developing a pattern of her not talking in person and then communicating to me via text.  Especially to express disappointment or upsetness (like about shelving).  Note:  We have had multiple in person talks about shelving.  It's a work in progress.  If her desire is for me to snap my fingers and "poof" there is a gorgeous laundry room, well, I don't have any poof.

For those interested in nuts and bolts.  Much to my dismay, there is not much rough cut pine around here.  I normally bring it home, plane it and use it.  So, I have been getting plywood cut and installing it with a dura-track type of system.  Listen, my wife loves this house, but we are severely lacking in storage.  So I am creating it so we can be organized.

Eventually there will be a combination of either painted plywood with melamine edging, or perhaps I will cover everything with a laminate.  Cost of doing it the way I am doing it is about 1/4 the cost of purchasing a melamine shelf at Lowes.  Yes, you read that right 1/4 the cost and eventually, I believe I will have a better product.

All of this has been explained and I have heard my wife say "ok".  Other times she will say "It's not worth talking to you anyway, "  and other variations.

My nature:  If I get a clear, actionable answer from my wife, that usually happens.  I rarely get a clear answer.  So, there is validation of "I do what I want, "  To me, I ask, she gives word salad, I ask for clarification, receive none and I go about my business.  I have no history to support me throwing more energy down the hole of "I want something from him but I'm not going to answer or tell him what I want"

Text exchange coming in a minute for review and comment.

FF

[formflier]

 


FF wife: Hey, d10  is not wanting to practice piano with your mom every day. She has lessons on thursdays so lets have them come over to practice 3 days a week and lesson on thursday. thats piano 4 of 7 days. d10 can practice on her own or have a day or two off each week. 11:51 PM

Me: K, let's discuss in person 2:13 AM

ff wife: Why? We discussed the shelving that we wanted in the laundry room in person and you did something completely different 7:28 AM

ff wife: Your let's just discuss in person message just seems to be a way to put things off because you tend to do what you want anyway 7:29 AM

ff wife: But by all means when I get home today let's discuss it in person 7:29 AM

Me: ok I will be set up to chat when you get home around 4ish. Listen, I'm not so much interested in the "nuts and bolts" of the idea as I want to talk to you and understand your feelings and desires around the subject 7:30 AM

Me: my hope is that you would want to understand mine. Hint: We are pretty much on the same page 7:31 AM

ff wife: Do understand you'll be set up to talk what I want to know is are you going to go with what we decide together or will you do something completely different like you did with the shelving 7:31 AM

ff wife: I have a hair appointment after work today so I won't be home until about 5 7:31 AM

Me: I have a hard time "connecting" via text and I believe intent of messages "misfire" very easily via text 7:32 AM

ff wife: And yet you text with all of your craigslist people and put that its ok to text 7:32 AM

Me: Oh yeah, forgot about the hair appointment, can't wait to check it out when you get home 7:32 AM

ff wife: And you text me 7:33 AM

ff wife: Just to let you know if you continue to do something completely different than what we have talked about there will be no point for me to discuss anything with you 7:33 AM

Me: Right, the only person I wish to "connect" with is you. C-list types are strictly "nuts and bolts", there is no intimate relationship 7:33 AM

Me: I would also like to discuss shelving again, somehow there seems to be an opinion that I am doing something completely different than what we talked about 7:34 AM

Me: The "cliffs notes" version is shelving is not done. I want to deliver a gorgeous laundry room as we have discussed. Lowes is out of melamine (not sure if I spelled it right) 7:35 AM

Me: I think there is a pathway to take what we have now and turn it into our vision 7:35 AM

Me: If it doesn't work, my hope is that we find another way, 7:36 AM

Me: hope you have a good day, looking forward to chatting when you get home from hair appointment 7:38 AM

ff wife: Ok you already admitted to me when we talked in person that you did something completely different than we discussed with the laundry room shelving we had discussed putting the nice whiteboards either pine or the ones that are already covered in white from Lowes in the laundry room and you cut plywood and put it inside the house we have never had plywood shelves in our house before any house we have lived in only in the garage as we talked about 7:55 AM

ff wife: So please do not act as if somehow I think you did something completely different than what we talked about 7:56 AM

ff wife: And please stop recording me in our home on the phone in my conversations in the car you do not have my permission to record me anywhere at anytime 7:56 AM

Me: I understand your point of view, I really do, what I don't understand is it sounds to me like you think we have finished product, I don't think we have finished product 7:57 AM

Me: I don't understand the use of the word "admitted", that sounds like a court proceeding or something. I would like to discuss the status of our project so we get to a finished product we both like and enjoy 7:58 AM

ff wife: I just think at this point spending hours trying to melamine the plywood shelving is not how you need to be spending your time you need a job allen we have eight children and you are not putting out job applications please start putting out job applications I am working temporarily until you find a job and you stopped putting out job applications 7:59 AM

Me: I am confident we will get there, even though I don't have a firm roadmap or timeline. Some of this stuff I am doing for the first time, some is old hat 7:59 AM

ff wife: That should be your priority as a husband and father of eight children 7:59 AM

Me: introducing rabbit trails to a conversation is not helpful. I am not able to process multiple conversations at once. Via text or in person 8:00 AM

Me: I do agree that priorities are something we should spend time discussing in person, in a kind, loving, respectful way. I do want to hear and understand your priorities 8:01 AM

Me: My hope is that you would to hear and understand mine and we can work together to build our roadmap to the future 8:02 AM

ff wife: If you cannot process multiple conversations probably deal with a children 8:02 AM

ff wife: 8 children 8:02 AM

ff wife: If you cannot process more than one conversation at once how on earth could you possibly deal with eight children 8:03 AM

ff wife: And we have already discussed the priorities and I have asked you before to please find a job 8:03 AM

Me: the impact of those conversations is much much less of importance to me than my conversations with you 8:03 AM

ff wife: As respectfully and kindly as is possible but when you do not I am being unkind and then refuse to listen 8:03 AM

ff wife: I'm not asking for the world here Allen just for a father of 8 to get a job 8:04 AM

ff wife: Hope you have a good day around the house today 8:04 AM

Me: I don't understand the last text, that is example of stuff I don't think we should text about, I have no frame of reference to process that 8:05 AM

Me: "just" seems like a minimalist thing, very dismissive of my efforts. Please refrain from denigrating my hard work. 8:05 AM

ff wife: It said I have asked you to get a job as respectfully and kindly as possible but when you do not like what I have to say you then say that I was not being kind or respectful and you do not listen 8:06 AM

ff wife: It's your turn to make dinner tonight 8:07 AM

ff wife: Please don't dump the clean laundry on the couch for the kids and I to fold please just leave it in a laundry basket in the laundry room 8:08 AM

Me: juggling a dinner conversation with a job conversation with a shelving conversation is hard for me to do. 8:08 AM

Me: and you guys will fold it in there? 8:09 AM

ff wife: When the cable guy came in the house yesterday they were clothes all over the living room I was just a wreck 8:09 AM

ff wife: When we are ready to fold it we will take it to a bed or we will fold it in there 8:09 AM

ff wife: Just so its not laying all over the couch the floor and spread all around the living room goal here is to keep the living room looking nice that downstairs living room the family room can get messy 8:10 AM

Me: Yeah, I hear you, the clutter and stuff can be tough to deal with 8:10 AM

Me: lets discuss laundry procedures in person as well, I think we are close on the "how to" and I don't see much difference in our ultimate goal 8:11 AM

ff wife: K 8:17 AM

[C.Stein]

This while exchange frustrates even me ... .no matter which perspective I take.

What new communication pattern are you talking about here because all I see is a circular argument that essentially goes nowhere.

I agree plywood shelving is considerably better than the particle board crap at Lowes, however it entirely depends on the grade of plywood you are using.  FYI you can get pre-finished furniture grade plywood that only needs to be edged.

Also I am confused why you are discussing laundry when you have 8 kids?  This is something that should have been worked out years ago ... .no?

[formflier]

This while exchange frustrates even me , no matter which perspective I take.

What new communication pattern are you talking about here because all I see is a circular argument that essentially goes nowhere.

I agree plywood shelving is considerably better than the particle board crap at Lowes, however it entirely depends on the grade of plywood you are using.  FYI you can get pre-finished furniture grade plywood that only needs to be edged.

Also I am confused why you are discussing laundry when you have 8 kids?  This is something that should have been worked out years ago , no?

Laundry:  I enjoy doing it.  I don't enjoy folding it.  Working on that.  But, we are fairly new to this house, so still getting procedures worked out.  Basically trying to figure out the "default" way of doing things here.  Laundry with 8 kids is an ongoing thing.  As soon as I hit post I'm going to go iron some and put another load end.  It never ends.

If I don't have this pattern of communication, there would essentially be none.  Is there wisdom in not having any?  I am open to that. 

I do see circular in there, I tried to avoid "getting in the circle" so hopefully you guys see what I "bit" on and what I avoided.  I am open to comments.

I am using the cheapest grade of thick plywood.  I suppose it would be called 5/8s back in the day.  $18 per sheet.  Once we settle on how many shelves we will have, by adjusting and restowing things, any extra shelves head to garage.  Remaining shelves will somehow be made pretty.

FF

[formflier]

If you guys see where I started or participated in a circular exchange, please point that out.

In my view I tolerated some circular communication but tried not to participate in it.

In other words I ignored it for the sake of some sort of communication.


Oh, last thing for now.  My understanding of our dinner schedule that my wife proposed and I accepted was she does M and W, I do Tues and Thurs.  Friday is grab bag, hopefully we go out for something social.

Now, we didn't write that down, I may be able to find it in text.  But that is example of where time and energy is invested in a conversation and agreement and then it vaporizes into, BPD land.

FF

[C.Stein]

If you guys see where I started or participated in a circular exchange, please point that out.

The whole job thing for starters.  This is obviously a major trigger for her and you are engaging in a circular discussion regarding it.

The laundry issue is also circular and silly FF, no offence intended.  This can be simply resolved with the rule that who ever starts a load of laundry is responsible for folding it when it is done.   Now you have one less thing to argue about.

[flourdust]

My comments are in bold text.

FF wife: Hey... .d10  is not wanting to practice piano with your mom every day. She has lessons on thursdays so lets have them come over to practice 3 days a week and lesson on thursday. thats piano 4 of 7 days. d10 can practice on her own or have a day or two off each week. 11:51 PM This is a little confusing to me, and I don't know the backstory. I can certainly understand why you'd want to talk this through in person.

Me: K... .let's discuss in person 2:13 AM

ff wife: Why? We discussed the shelving that we wanted in the laundry room in person and you did something completely different 7:28 AM The vibe I'm getting here is that ff wife is frustrated by the deflection she sees in your text. She basically confirms this with the next text. She also gives you foreshadowing that there are other cans of worms (shelving! laundry! job searching!) she stands ready to open up on you.

ff wife: Your let's just discuss in person message just seems to be a way to put things off because you tend to do what you want anyway 7:29 AM

ff wife: But by all means when I get home today let's discuss it in person 7:29 AM But she agrees! Victory! Unless you start JADEing or something... .

Me: ok I will be set up to chat when you get home around 4ish. Uh oh... .here's where the JADEing starts ... .big time. Listen, I'm not so much interested in the "nuts and bolts" of the idea as I want to talk to you and understand your feelings and desires around the subject 7:30 AM

Me: my hope is that you would want to understand mine. Hint: We are pretty much on the same page 7:31 AM "Hint" = "I've said we'll talk about it when we get home. I won't talk about it now, but I'll talk about how I'm going to talk about it."

And it was really off to the races from there. I can see that what seems to be her main anxiety -- about you getting a job -- surfaced pretty openly around halfway through the conversation.

But this whole thing was very much in BPD wheelhouse -- JADEing, jumping from topic to topic -- you played on her court, and she kept taking it to the net.

[flourdust]

If you guys see where I started or participated in a circular exchange, please point that out.

The whole job thing for starters.  This is obviously a major trigger for her and you are engaging in a circular discussion regarding it.

The laundry issue is also circular and silly FF, no offence intended.  This can be simply resolved with the rule that who ever starts a load of laundry is responsible for folding it when it is done.   Now you have one less thing to argue about.

I might add that you could look into a family organizer system -- there's an app called Cozi that I've recently started playing with that lets you set up family calendars, to do lists, etc. Get all this stuff about laundry and dinners, etc. in writing.

[formflier]

If you guys see where I started or participated in a circular exchange, please point that out.

The whole job thing for starters.  This is obviously a major trigger for her and you are engaging in a circular discussion regarding it.

The laundry issue is also circular and silly FF, no offence intended.  This can be simply resolved with the rule that who ever starts a load of laundry is responsible for folding it when it is done.   Now you have one less thing to argue about.

OK, I'm listening (reading)


The truth,  I am applying for jobs, I have an interview on the way and I currently have a job (ride share), plus I work in family business (rentals and property management), also sell stuff on craigslist and ebay.   What I don't have at the moment is a 6 figure executive job.  I have an interview on the way for that.

There is no basis in fact for allegations of "not trying".  What is true (according to me), is that I am conducting my job search, I am not conducting the job search in the manner she has told me to, hence I am not listening to her.

So, with that background, where do you see me engaging in circular arguments.  I believe I ignored it.

Laundry:  No offense taken.  I was under the impression we had a solution, has been working for weeks.  She was embarrassed yesterday and that is likely the source of this.   Many times she has said she wants me to wash, fold and put it away in the places she designates.  My answer is simply no.  

When our family was working well together, I usually did the laundry (sorted and started machine) and once dry there was a bit of a joint effort to sort, fold and stow the laundry.

Umm, that rule works for a normal house and few people.  8 kids.  Right now we have one kid doing his own.  The rest of that issue is mired up in our inability to make and keep agreements (IMO)

Where do you see the circular part of laundry?  Or how could I have done that better?

Granted, I don't want to be texting about any of this.  Trying to get something effective while things are weird again.

FF

[C.Stein]

I might add that you could look into a family organizer system -- there's an app called Cozi that I've recently started playing with that lets you set up family calendars, to do lists, etc. Get all this stuff about laundry and dinners, etc. in writing.

Agreed.  I might also add that splitting up a singular responsibility (like the laundry) just invites arguments.  The path to more constructive discussions is to remove the items that lead to destructive discussions.  Remove the BPD triggers!

[formflier]

But this whole thing was very much in BPD wheelhouse -- JADEing, jumping from topic to topic -- you played on her court, and she kept taking it to the net.

I can see that point of view.  My other option is to stick to guns and not discuss except in person.

Do you think it is mistake to attempt some lines of communication or just let there be none until counseling starts?

Note:   There is some position taking here by me.  I won't purposefully set out to invalidate you, but if something needs to be explained, from my point of view.  I'm going to do it.  If my position makes her uncomfortable,  that is her issue to solve.

I agree, her main issue is job, at least today.

FF

[formflier]

I might add that you could look into a family organizer system -- there's an app called Cozi that I've recently started playing with that lets you set up family calendars, to do lists, etc. Get all this stuff about laundry and dinners, etc. in writing.

Agreed.  I might also add that splitting up a singular responsibility (like the laundry) just invites arguments.  The path to more constructive discussions is to remove the items that lead to destructive discussions.  Remove the BPD triggers!

If I removed the triggers (at least the triggers in last few months, there would be little conversation).  Still scratching my head about a major backslide in our r/s.

FF

[C.Stein]

If I removed the triggers (at least the triggers in last few months, there would be little conversation).  Still scratching my head about a major backslide in our r/s.

There would be less arguments and more time for constructive dialogue.  Even no dialogue is preferable to constant arguing and bickering.  You bought this ticket to the boat ride now you need to find a way to make it work.  Accept you will have to compromise more than she will in order to maintain some level of peace in the household.

[KateCat]

Even no dialogue is preferable to constant arguing and bickering.  You bought this ticket to the boat ride now you need to find a way to make it work.  Accept you will have to compromise more than she will in order to maintain some level of peace in the household.

Forcefully said, but well said, I think.

I don't see this representing a new communication pattern or a major backslide in your relationship. It's what you've been reporting during your time here on bpdfamily.

There does seem to be more uncertainty, more stress, and greater financial difficulty at the moment than there has been at certain other times. You might get a lot of mileage out of validating your wife's money and job concerns. (Possibly you have wanted to minimize her worry by minimizing your response to her worries, but it may be counterproductive now.)

Beyond that, a therapist just for you may help with new ways to communicate and to cope in general.

And mastering the art of laundry, from A to Z, of course. 

[formflier]

 

So, just want to make sure what I'm hearing.

That I would have been better to to exchange 1 or 2 texts and then let her know I am available to talk later.

Note:  Talking later really doesn't happen.  I can't say never, every once in a while there is a productive conversation, but her basic stance is that nothing will be discussed outside of counseling.

I'm ok with going back to no real stuff via text, nuts and bolts only.

I will rephrase something.  What I am hearing from you guys is that what went on today was not positive for the r/s, her or me.  Correct? 

My basic thought was that since she won't talk in person (much), I should try to build some sort of bridge to "bridge the gap", until counseling.  My impression is you guys aren't thinking that is good idea.

Analogy:  Yes I bought a ticket to this boat ride, we steered it back into the harbor, she is steering it back out into the rough seas.  If that is where she wants to go, I will be getting in lifeboat and going back to harbor.

FF

[Sunfl0wer]

If he simply refuses to engage, then he will be accused of stonewalling or passive aggressiveness by her.  She will see his unwillingness as not cooperating.

Is it just me or does anyone else think that at some point... .

Maybe there actually IS nothing more that we can do?

Maybe RA is admitting that even with best efforts... .  Communication is ... .what it is.  It does take TWO.  Yes, we can learn skills... .but heck... .aren't some situations just not conducive to communication no matter how thoughtful and perfect our efforts?

I feel like even mulling over all the options FF did not take ... .is actually invalidating the invalid.

Heck... .I'm not black/white in my thinking... .not trying to take a side.    I can give some constructive criticism... .

FF could have redirected the conversation back to the original topic of piano.  And exited with the cessation of one topic. 

Heck, probably a good idea to be a good model of sleep hygiene and not even engage in any topic after 10pm... .as that can be thrown in your face later.

Probably a good idea to try to wrap up any txt 'conversations with three exchanges, or disengage fast... .vs explaining how you don't want to engage... .and engaging doing so.

Yet somehow... .

I don't think any of it would have change the outcome.  I think FFw decided to be unsatisfied with him before engaging and was looking for validation of: unsatisfied with FF.

[C.Stein]

My basic thought was that since she won't talk in person (much), I should try to build some sort of bridge to "bridge the gap", until counseling.  My impression is you guys aren't thinking that is good idea.

No.  I think it is a good idea to put things in writing sometimes.  This helps to make sure you are clear about things that you might have trouble articulating in an interpersonal conversation.  That said, the text exchange IMO was more arguing than constructive.  Text might not be the best way to achieve what you are looking for.  Perhaps email?

Analogy:  Yes I bought a ticket to this boat ride, we steered it back into the harbor, she is steering it back out into the rough seas.  If that is where she wants to go, I will be getting in lifeboat and going back to harbor.

Compromise FF ... .Compromise.  You don't have to win every battle to win the war.  Sometimes it is best just to say OK and give her what she wants at that moment.  Let the small stuff go ... .it is insignificant in the bigger picture.

[formflier]

[

Compromise FF , Compromise.  You don't have to win every battle to win the war.  Sometimes it is best just to say OK and give her what she wants at that moment.  Let the small stuff go , it is insignificant in the bigger picture.

Big picture:  one sided compromise has, IMO, fed the monster for a while.  It got much better, so the skills are there, somewhere.

I am open to compromise and working things out.  I have no availability to do what I am told.

FF

[C.Stein]

Big picture:  one sided compromise has, IMO, fed the monster for a while.  It got much better, so the skills are there, somewhere.

I totally understand the one sided compromise but that is the nature of the BPD beast.  Pick your battles wisely and more importantly find the right time to wage them.

[Grey Kitty]

Step 1. Stop taking the #%*^%* temperature. You already know what it is.

 

Step 2. When text temperature is outside the safe operating range don't engage anymore.

When the engine is on fire you deal with the fire first then decide if you can finish the mission or not!

Telling her you will talk about it later in person is not disengaging!

[flourdust]

My basic thought was that since she won't talk in person (much), I should try to build some sort of bridge to "bridge the gap", until counseling.  My impression is you guys aren't thinking that is good idea.

No.  I think it is a good idea to put things in writing sometimes.  This helps to make sure you are clear about things that you might have trouble articulating in an interpersonal conversation.  That said, the text exchange IMO was more arguing than constructive.  Text might not be the best way to achieve what you are looking for.  Perhaps email?

I agree with this. I think as a general rule of thumb, avoid texting for emotionally charged or ambiguous discussions. When the past is dredged up, that's usually a red flag that a discussion is heading in that direction.

Texting is good for concrete answers to concrete questions. "Can you leave the laundry in the basket instead of on the couch?" "Yes, I'll do that."

"Let's talk about this when you get home at 4." "I won't be home until 5." "OK, let's talk then."

I get that the talk may never happen. If you've agreed (as it seems) in text to have the talk about that subject, all you can do is give it a try at the time. I've done that. My wife often takes a planned time to talk about something concrete and turns it into a complaining session about unrelated issues. Or issues that may be peripherally related (in her mind) but get us no closer to solving the concrete problem that was the alleged purpose of the talk. Nonetheless, I give it a try, and if it fails and I have to walk away, I don't beat myself up for the failure. All you can do is make yourself available to be part of a solution, but it takes two to make the solution happen.

[C.Stein]

I get that the talk may never happen. If you've agreed (as it seems) in text to have the talk about that subject, all you can do is give it a try at the time. I've done that. My wife often takes a planned time to talk about something concrete and turns it into a complaining session about unrelated issues. Or issues that may be peripherally related (in her mind) but get us no closer to solving the concrete problem that was the alleged purpose of the talk. Nonetheless, I give it a try, and if it fails and I have to walk away, I don't beat myself up for the failure. All you can do is make yourself available to be part of a solution, but it takes two to make the solution happen.

Perhaps the problem here is the planning to begin with.  As the "non" perhaps the best way to approach this is to learn to recognize when the best time to "talk" is ... .no planning.   IMO, as soon as you plan to talk about something you have already emotionally charged the situation.

[sweetheart]

Analogy:  Yes I bought a ticket to this boat ride, we steered it back into the harbor, she is steering it back out into the rough seas.  If that is where she wants to go, I will be getting in lifeboat and going back to harbor.

How about helping your w find her sea legs again and steering the boat back into the harbour together ?

[flourdust]

I get that the talk may never happen. If you've agreed (as it seems) in text to have the talk about that subject, all you can do is give it a try at the time. I've done that. My wife often takes a planned time to talk about something concrete and turns it into a complaining session about unrelated issues. Or issues that may be peripherally related (in her mind) but get us no closer to solving the concrete problem that was the alleged purpose of the talk. Nonetheless, I give it a try, and if it fails and I have to walk away, I don't beat myself up for the failure. All you can do is make yourself available to be part of a solution, but it takes two to make the solution happen.

Perhaps the problem here is the planning to begin with.  As the "non" perhaps the best way to approach this is to learn to recognize when the best time to "talk" is ... .no planning.   IMO, as soon as you plan to talk about something you have already emotionally charged the situation.

That's an interesting point. With my wife, there have been times when I've raised a subject and she's accused me of ambushing her with new information out of the blue.

Sometimes, you just can't win.

[C.Stein]

That's an interesting point. With my wife, there have been times when I've raised a subject and she's accused me of ambushing her with new information out of the blue.

Yea, that is something you just have to let roll off of you.  Any new information is out of the blue ... .It is the very nature of new. 

Knowing the right time to broach certain subjects can be difficult for sure.  Finding a way to communicate without provoking an emotion response is also difficult.  It requires the non to be very sensitive to the emotional state of the pwBPD, and really this is not necessarily restricted to non/pwBPD interactions.  It is however something that requires you to be there in person and therefore cannot be accomplished via text/email. 

[Fian]

Something to consider:

One of her complaints is that you made an agreement to do something and didn't follow through.  You could respond like this.  I agree that it is frustrating when a person says something and then doesn't do it.  I feel that you have also done that to me as well.  In this case, I don't believe we ever came to an agreement on the shelving.  If you want to make sure that agreements are not ignored, we could write down our agreements and each sign them.  That will ensure that there is no confusion on what we have agreed to do.

P.S.  When reading your text, it appears that one of your wife's complaints about shelf construction is that it is taking too much of your time, which would be more productively spent elsewhere (job search, etc).  Just stating this in case you weren't seeing that in what she was saying.

[formflier]

How about helping your w find her sea legs again and steering the boat back into the harbour together ?

Depends on how far out to sea she wants to go.

She is driving the boat, her boat, I don't want to get too involved and confuse who is making choices.  

FF

[formflier]

P.S.  When reading your text, it appears that one of your wife's complaints about shelf construction is that it is taking too much of your time, which would be more productively spent elsewhere (job search, etc).  Just stating this in case you weren't seeing that in what she was saying.

Yep, saw that.  She wants it both ways. 

Me produce shelves in timely manner and produce job in timely manner.

I can control the shelving, the job, not so much.

FF

[babyducks]

Reminder.    Validation is not agreement.   It's recognition of some one's feeling.

Yup it can be frustrating to have two projects taking longer than was hoped for.

[C.Stein]

Me produce shelves in timely manner

Sometimes there comes a point of diminishing returns.  How much is your time worth?