Holding the bedroom door shut to keep her out

[formflier]

Something I had thought through since the last time I was pursued around the house.  That time I would lock a door, and she would find the key to unlock it and come through to get to me and keep up the verbal assault.

Well, on that day I just kept retreating until the fire sort of burned out in her anger.

Today, she got going verbally bashing at me, went from zero to nuke, really fast.  She basically was complaining that I never stay still to listen to her (keep walking away) so I "had to go" (I guess reference to leave the house).  Her voice kicked up to a yell and I walked away and she was pursuing.  I got in bedroom, shut and locked the door and wedged my foot behind the door and was also leaning against it to keep her out.

She unlocked door, started pushing, felt resistance, and went ballistic.  The sucky thing is it was a couple feet away from a 2 and 5 year old.  She started saying she had a right to go in any room in the house (saying equals yelling) and I was preventing her from entering.  A lot of other blather about things.

She paused and I heard my 5 year old ask "Mommy, why did Daddy lock the door?"

She told her because Daddy is lying and needs help. 

I stayed calm through the whole thing.  Ok, calm is relative.  The first finally burned and she walked away.  I left the door locked and laid down to compose myself.  She eventually came back, burst into the room, flung some words at me about needing her shoes and stormed out of the house with all the kids. 

Uggggg, double ugggg.

I recorded the entire thing.  It went down mostly as I remembered it.  The new paranoid thought is that a routine VA exam that I have coming up is really an exam to have me declared "just fine", after which I will divorce her and take the kids.

Never mind that she has asked me to get an exam to examine my mental state, sigh.

I realize I am trying to wrap my head around something that can't fully be understood.

Saw her an hour or so later and we were able to be around each other and be functional.

FF

[flourdust]

Three quick reactions... .

1) My utmost sympathy to you. This is so hard, and so insane. They throw behaviors at you that you just can't possibly anticipate because they are so out-of-control and violate every social norm. And you have to be the level-headed one who can think two moves ahead so you can anticipate the next crazy action and try to keep it from getting dangerous. But how can you plan two moves ahead when you're playing chess and your opponent is playing Quidditch crossed with battle rap?

2) For the future ... .do anything you can to avoid physical confrontations. The physical fight over the door ended OK this time, with nobody getting hurt, but it could easily have gone very badly or escalated into an even worse confrontation. Better to have a firm plan to keep retreating, keep your hands in your pockets, and get away. Do not physically engage with her or with property unless your life is actually in danger.

3) The kids. What can you do to help the kids? Having them exposed to this is awful.

[formflier]

I don't think there is anything I can do to help the kids. 

The "tactics" seem to be designed to make me want to leave.  That is a course of action I have considered, but rejected. 

If she started "banging" through the door, my plan was to call 911 and run video in addition to the audio recording that I was doing.

As I just typed that, I need to practice that ahead of time.  Not sure if I can do audio and also record video at the same time.

Back to kids, if I tried to pick a child up and leave, there would be a physical confrontation for sure.

I'm open for ideas.

My wife says that the kids "need to hear the truth".

FF

[Ceruleanblue]

I didn't see this mentioned, so I'm just throwing it out there: Can you just listen to her? She may be using language, and saying things that aren't true, but can you just listen to her? It sounds a lot like she's frustrated because she isn't heard, or that you keep walking away(which I've done at times, but not if BPDh truly wanted to talk). How would she respond to "I'll listen but could we keep it down due to the kids?"

How does it go when you do actually hear her out, and I know this is hard, because I'd bet she doesn't practice fair fighting, and she's likely pretty verbally abusive. I have the opposite issue with BPDh. He is conflict avoidant until he dysregulates, and then he's too angry to "talk". Oh, he'll say some hateful, untrue things, that do damage, but that isn't really talking, that's deliberately wounding.

Is your wife actually trying to talk to you? Is there something she wants to express to you, and you refuse to listen? I know I find it incredibly frustrating that BPDh has such a hard time, or lack of interest in listening to me.

Could the opposite approach to what you are currently doing, at least be better for your kids? Can you stay calm in the face of her anger, and just hear her out? Validate her feelings, if not the facts?

Is this a possibility, or are you just not in a place to do that?

[Grey Kitty]

First... .ugh, this sounds really tough... .You're getting hit by a lot.

Next, what can you do... .Here is the conventional series of escalating boundaries on verbal abuse I'm familiar with.

0. Change the subject.

1. "I will not be spoken to that way"

2. (leave room)

3. (leave house)

4. (drive away)

5. if followed, (drive to police station)

x.5. (if blocked from leaving in any of the above) Inform that barring ability to leave is domestic abuse and call police.

(next step call police)

... .can you modify your script to better protect yourself? She's blowing past step #2, and you need something better.

... .I'm also aware that the question as to taking or leaving kids is a challenge.

[Grey Kitty]

Oh yeah... .this is getting serious here. Really serious. Please post on the legal board about it. You need to know your standing and your options. Things like restraining orders and divorce filings (aimed at you) and kids taken out of state or out of the county sound very plausible in the near future.

[flourdust]

Back to kids, if I tried to pick a child up and leave, there would be a physical confrontation for sure.

I'm open for ideas.

My wife says that the kids "need to hear the truth".

Here's how the outside world (law enforcement, divorce court) sees this. You and your wife are two consenting adults. If you want to squabble until the cows come home, that's your business, unless someone crosses the line into violence or becoming a public nuisance. If either of you wants a divorce, then nobody's very interested in the fighting, because, duh, couples who get divorced fight.

But the kids are another matter. They're the collateral damage who have no say in their exposure to this and who should be protected by responsible adults.

There are other options than grabbing a kid and going. What can you do to reduce the kids' exposure to these conflicts? If you change your stance to one of protecting the kids, what do the boundaries look like?

Is it possible to have any kind of agreement -- mediated, if necessary, by a counselor or other -- with your wife to have certain behaviors off-limits around the kids?

Now, I will finish this on a bit of a downer note -- these are things I have all tried. My wife is often unable to control her behavior around our daughter. I have had to try other techniques that don't rely on cooperation with my wife. But I can make a very, very solid case that I've worked very hard to put my kid's needs first.

[formflier]

Is it possible to have any kind of agreement -- mediated, if necessary, by a counselor or other -- with your wife to have certain behaviors off-limits around the kids?

Now, I will finish this on a bit of a downer note -- these are things I have all tried. My wife is often unable to control her behavior around our daughter. I have had to try other techniques that don't rely on cooperation with my wife. But I can make a very, very solid case that I've worked very hard to put my kid's needs first.

Grey Kitty often reminds me (correctly so) about the ability of my wife to follow agreements.  100% of the counselors and classes we have taken have recommended, and we agreed to keep it private.

She dysregulates and wants kids to "know the truth".

Here is the thing that sucks:  She has the kids on her side.  She is fun with them, and has long history of setting things up as her and kids against me or she says yes and forces Daddy to say no.

There is a consequence for crossing her for the kids.

There is not a consequence for crossing me.



FF

[Fian]

FF, I know you were planning on talking to some of the older kids about her badmouthing you.  How did that go?

[HurtinNW]

I didn't see this mentioned, so I'm just throwing it out there: Can you just listen to her? She may be using language, and saying things that aren't true, but can you just listen to her? It sounds a lot like she's frustrated because she isn't heard, or that you keep walking away(which I've done at times, but not if BPDh truly wanted to talk). How would she respond to "I'll listen but could we keep it down due to the kids?"

How does it go when you do actually hear her out, and I know this is hard, because I'd bet she doesn't practice fair fighting, and she's likely pretty verbally abusive. I have the opposite issue with BPDh. He is conflict avoidant until he dysregulates, and then he's too angry to "talk". Oh, he'll say some hateful, untrue things, that do damage, but that isn't really talking, that's deliberately wounding.

Is your wife actually trying to talk to you? Is there something she wants to express to you, and you refuse to listen? I know I find it incredibly frustrating that BPDh has such a hard time, or lack of interest in listening to me.

Could the opposite approach to what you are currently doing, at least be better for your kids? Can you stay calm in the face of her anger, and just hear her out? Validate her feelings, if not the facts?

Is this a possibility, or are you just not in a place to do that?

I'm curious about this too. I don't know your whole story, my apologies. I know my boyfriend becomes verbally abusive when upset. The few times I was able to stay calm and just listen to him he actually extinguished the behavior much quicker. Of course that doesn't mean you should have to do it. But I am curious if your wife has any times or places where she can feel heard. I am sorry you are going through this.

[formflier]

FF, I know you were planning on talking to some of the older kids about her badmouthing you.  How did that go?

Went well, I still need to talk to S15.  He is the one that got called into "testify" against me the night a bunch of her family was trying to keep me awake.

It's obvious he is upset with me and distant since then.

FF

[formflier]

OK, as to the question of why not just listen. 

To her, listening means I agree and do what she says. 

So, if I sit through a tirade, use some active listening, but don't "admit" to being (fill in the blank) you get no "credit" for listening.

Plus you listened to a bunch of stuff that was horrible.

It has been a long time since I have tried that, but I have tried it enough in the past, that it is ineffective.

The basic premise of agreeing to disagree is not possible.  It is for me.

She will say that I am being dishonest and lying.  I will say that I have a different point of view. 

Listening to her when she is regulated is just fine.  Listening to her when she is dysregulated has less than 10% success.   I don't have actual figures on that, but it gives you an idea of how effective it is.  So, yes there were times that I could hang with it and it blows over, she calms and things somewhat improve, but not many.

FF

[formflier]

 

Trying to make sure all points/questions are covered.

Why not just do the dishes?  I'm fine with that, it has happened that way many times.

It has also happened (although not recently) where if I am doing something that she has agreed to do or is supposed to do, that I get flamethrowered for that.  "What, you don't think I am capable of xyz"

Look, my wife changes her mind all the time (duh, obviously), so I have no illusions that I will convince her she is wrong or that I will somehow get that agreement back.  The goal is to figure out where she is at "right now" on the issue.  Sometimes there are also genuine miscommunications and these conversations fix that up.


Oh, no problem with wife taking d19 to movie or  relaxing after a hard days work.  There was a week or two there where I cooked every night so she can relax.  I totally get that point and support it.

The switch back to her cooking was her idea and was brought up in a nice way.

FF

[Beacher]

She said that a 3 and 5 year old' need to hear this'? I don't think so!

I've been this route before also and usually feel like a fool standing there not saying a word during the verbal abuse. And usually everything is denied at a later date.

You can try saying " if you want to talk, it has to be when we are both calm and reasonable. It's not good for us or the kids to hear us be upset ( notice how I keep using 'we' rather than 'you'.

I've also gone through being followed around the house or blocked from leaving the room. In retrospect I should have called the police but wasn't strong enough. Maybe have the kids go somewhere for a bit so you can try to talk to her without them having to witness this.

Also get a sliding bolt lock from the inside. Worked well for me.

Good for you for recording this. Just don't ever let her know you did it. My husband went crazy and physically attacked me.

We do not deserve this treatment. Hang in there

[Ceruleanblue]

I always try to keep in mind that while BPDh has "something going on"(BPD or something), that we also just have normal male/female issues. Men and women relate so much differently. My Mom always reminds me that it's widely known that a lot of women complain of their husband's not communicating. It's just hard for me to relate, because my Dad is a huge talker.

I suggested listening to her because it seems like what you are doing is creating more drama? I know sometimes I do things, thinking it will make things better(like walking away), but then BPDh will say something like "you obviously don't even want to be around me". Nothing could be further from the truth, I'm just trying to give him "calm down" time, and I'd much prefer if he could calmly talk about why he's angry, but he never wants to "talk". My point is that my "walking away" or taking a break by going to the store, seems to sometimes feel like abandonment, or "me not wanting to be around him".

Maybe in your effort to get away from the verbal abuse, it's actually triggering her worse than if you listened? Just a thought.

I agree that hearing her out does not have to mean you agree with her, but validating how she feels might help? I LOVE when BPDh validates me, which doesn't happen often, but with him, validation has never helped(he feels condescended to, or emasculated I think). Have you ever addressed agreeing to disagree in couples therapy?

[HopefulDad]

First... .ugh, this sounds really tough... .You're getting hit by a lot.

Next, what can you do... .Here is the conventional series of escalating boundaries on verbal abuse I'm familiar with.

0. Change the subject.

1. "I will not be spoken to that way"

2. (leave room)

3. (leave house)

4. (drive away)

5. if followed, (drive to police station)

x.5. (if blocked from leaving in any of the above) Inform that barring ability to leave is domestic abuse and call police.

(next step call police)

... .can you modify your script to better protect yourself? She's blowing past step #2, and you need something better.

... .I'm also aware that the question as to taking or leaving kids is a challenge.

Sold advice here and something I've done (threatened to call police while prohibited from leaving).  Boundaries mean squat if you do not enforce them.  And you don't really know what enforcing boundaries is unless you've had them tested severely.

I think in general it is better for the kids that you create space by leaving rather than barricade yourself in the bedroom and expose them to a screamfest from your spouse.  It sucks that this responsibility and action needs to fall on you, but you're the healthy one and have to do what's best for you and your kids.

She's going to poison your kids' mind whether she's screaming at you through a bedroom door or behind your back if you leave... .or other times when you're not around.  You'll have to deal with that separately.  As for now, if your kids ask you why you are leaving, you just respond, "Because mommies and daddies aren't supposed to yell at each other to solve disagreements and I don't want you thinking that is okay."  Kids are smarter than we realize and once the healthy parent starts exhibiting model behavior in the face of BPD, they do pick up on things.  They start connecting the dots.  Have faith that leading by example will rub off on them.

[Verbena]

My heart really breaks for your children.  I was picturing an innocent three and five-year old witnessing this.  This is just all kinds of wrong.  

I really don't have any advice for you other than to say keep up with recording this stuff and get some legal advice.  Your wife seems intent on forcing you out of the house so she can then say you left the family and she had nothing to do with it.  This will give her lots more ammunition in turning the kids against you.  That is what she is clearly trying to do.  

There's no way to know just how much damage she has already done to the kids or will continue to do.  Would the kids be better off having time with each of you separately or continue seeing you together with these episodes?  I think that's the question you have to ask yourself.  Neither option is a good one. 

[Notwendy]

I will add my 2cents to the idea that locking yourself in a room/ not listening to her is escalating the conflict. What if you simply remained calm in her presence and listened to her without reacting. It seems that if she pursues you to talk to you that reacting is adding fuel to the fire.

Do you think she feels heard by you - that you truly get her- behind the issues/ the BPD is the person you chose to be with. Yes a lot of issues have gone on between you, but staying calm and managing your own feelings when she wants to talk- or vent might feel connecting to her.

Ironically - airing her feelings to you is a sign that she is still trying to connect with you. IMHO what is more concerning would be if she didn't try. It may feel more peaceful to you but that may be because she has given up.

Even if she's ranting- she may stop sooner if you don't react.

I would think walking away/ locking the door would trigger abandonment fears.

[thisagain]

Hey FF, I'm sorry to run into you over here   

I've been reading some of your threads and I'm having trouble understanding why her current behavior is so different than before. I remember a thread about turning off the light for sleep from months ago (though maybe it was in a hotel visiting new location?). Stuff like picking fights over text and not wanting to talk when she gets home, agreeing to something and then raging at you about it, accusing you of lying and needing help, is pretty basic BPD behavior. What was different before the move?

How would you have handled this kind of thing before the move? Or how would you advise one of us to handle it?

If no kids are within earshot, I agree with some others that it might be worth trying to hear her out. Try to validate whatever you can, and let the insults and junk go in one ear and out the other. There's a lot going on, and it's understandable for your wife to be feeling afraid and insecure about the changes.

I saw some of your other posts and I hear that you're not sure whether you want to keep living this way. That completely makes sense. But you know how much effort it takes from a Non to have a successful relationship with a pwBPD. If you stop putting in that effort, and start going for high-drama high-conflict reactions instead, then she's going to make the choice for you.

[formflier]

 

Perhaps I will try to stick around and "hear one out". 

The downside is that if she can still see me, it usually keeps the fire burning.

She doesn't deal well with asking a question and not getting an answer.


I do see the point of view and will consider it.  That definitely would change up the dynamic some.

FF

[chump]

I'm a little concerned that we would be recommending that FF stand and listen, or just "take it," in what appears to me to be pretty out of control, abusive behavior.  

Shouting, ranting, raging, pursuing someone around the house, banging on a locked door, unlocking it, physically trying to enter FF's "safe" place, seems so beyond any kind of reasonable behavior. Don't we have a responsibility to encourage someone to protect themselves from this kind of abuse?

I'm not a big fan of gender debates, but to clarify the point, what would we be telling a woman in this situation, confronted with a man behaving this way?  Sounds pretty scary.

Chump

[formflier]

What was different before the move?

How would you have handled this kind of thing before the move? Or how would you advise one of us to handle it?

Intensity and length of dysregulation.  

Roughly 1.5 to 2 years of fairly steady improvement (post DSS).  Sure there were some zigs and zags but nothing that kept going for this long.  For most of that time we had active MC going on.

So, for instance.  The thing about the light was at her parents house.  It went for one night and blew itself out pretty quick.  If I remember right the next day she had a bigger dsyregulation with her Dad and was yelling at him.

Then it seemed to be quickly forgotten and things went on their way.

I even remember a post where there was discussion of it being sort of like a "Turret's tick", she says weird stuff, depending on severity I walk away, but it's over and life resumes to normal.

There was not the constant devaluing and obvious lack of respect that went on for days.

"

Maybe another way of looking at it is before the move I would get black and then back to grey or even white pretty quick.  Might have several weeks of white, and not the you are best on the planet white, but kinda normal "I like my hubby" stuff.

Here is the thing.  If I had any inkling or thought that we were not on a consistent (with zigs and zags) upward trend, I never would have agreed to the move.

Now, I also did some "disaster planning" and I did think through would the move be worth it if I came up here and things went all to pieces.  Yeah, it is still worth it.

That is a bit different than saying I could have stayed put and had the life I had or come here and things go nuclear.

Hope this explains it a bit.

FF

[empath]

I had a thought... . could you have a conversation with CPS to get info about what they would think about the things going on? I have talked to them before about a situation that happened, and they were able to give me their perspective.

[Notwendy]

I think there is a difference between "taking" abusive behavior and escalating it. I don't suggest FF sit there and take it, but I am wondering if listening will defuse it better than reacting to it by locking a door.


In the face of abusive behavior that continues to escalate no matter what, then regardless of gender, there needs to be a safety plan.

It just seemed that this one incident started with wife pursuing him to listen to her, and locking the door escalated it. A safety plan involves removing oneself and getting to a safe place away from the raging person.

If someone is in danger behind a locked door with someone trying to get in- and is truly in danger, then calling 911 is in order.

And this could be for either gender.

[Sunfl0wer]

I'm a little concerned that we would be recommending that FF stand and listen, or just "take it," in what appears to me to be pretty out of control, abusive behavior. 

Yea, If FF does not want abuse spewed at him either alone or in front of the kids, trying to remove himself is not him contributing to escalation.  That behavior is on her, not him.

[formflier]

 

When I walk away.

Just to clarify. 

There is a level of voice that is just below yelling.  Hard to explain, but it seems to be a point of no return.  Once you hit that, it is going to go for a while in a rant.

If it is just a long winded monologue, even peppered with jabs, I stick around.  Jabs I take, will try to think through them, validate, do what I can.  So, when unhappy about dinner situation, she finds out a tasty meal is prepared (which invalidates her view of me), her voice goes up some and she says, "Wow, I'm surprised, a night with no leftovers, thanks for the effort honey"  So there are a couple jabs in there, I don't pick up the bait.  Might even try to validate or agree that eating leftovers sometimes is not the most fun.  In that particular week we had 4 "new" meals and one night that I cleaned out the fridge and did some assigned eating to kids.  So, random kid asks "what's that?"  my answer  "your dinner, ", next,

It's been done many times before, and when she is happy with me I am saving money, being responsible and when she is not happy with me I am ruining her day after she spent all day at work.

Anyway, this type of thing, I stick with all day long.  Really don't let it get to me.

Combine a monologue with the high voice level and I generally pitch out of the talk/rant pretty quick.  "You never cook and expect me to do everything and won't get a job and called CPS on me (you guys can keep filling in the blanks).  Hard to describe but the jabs turn into a bludgeon and she goes to town.  That's the type of thing I walk away from.

She gets satisfaction (of some sort) from doing that and it upsets her that I wont' stay and "listen".

Name calling in a calm voice gets a walk away.

FF

[HurtinNW]

OK, as to the question of why not just listen. 

To her, listening means I agree and do what she says. 

So, if I sit through a tirade, use some active listening, but don't "admit" to being (fill in the blank) you get no "credit" for listening.

Plus you listened to a bunch of stuff that was horrible.

It has been a long time since I have tried that, but I have tried it enough in the past, that it is ineffective.

The basic premise of agreeing to disagree is not possible.  It is for me.

She will say that I am being dishonest and lying.  I will say that I have a different point of view. 

Listening to her when she is regulated is just fine.  Listening to her when she is dysregulated has less than 10% success.   I don't have actual figures on that, but it gives you an idea of how effective it is.  So, yes there were times that I could hang with it and it blows over, she calms and things somewhat improve, but not many.

FF

That makes a lot of sense, thanks for clarifying. My boyfriend does eventually calm down and will even admit he was wrong, but I personally cannot take the abuse on the way there, which is why sitting there listening doesn't work for me.

I think it is important we know our own limits.

[Fian]

I am also concerned about advice saying that FF should just stay and take it.  While he is a tough guy, I don't think it is healthy to listen to such things.  Two, I think you put yourself at risk of getting angry, and things then really escalate (and then she wins).  It is better to walk away, imo, to protect yourself, and to prevent things from escalating even further, either by her or by you.

One thing that you might want to consider.  It seems like when she crosses a line, you don't give a warning, you just walk away and leave.  You did that with your mom too.  Is there a way, where you can give her an indication that you are about ready to bolt?  Maybe something like, "I would love to be able to speak with you constructively on this topic, but when you speak to me like this, I am going to have to leave.  Can we please tone it down?"  Maybe the first few times don't work, but if you establish that as a new pattern, she may sometimes decide that she really does want to have a conversation with you, and dials it back.  Anyway, food for thought.

[Grey Kitty]

I will add my 2cents to the idea that locking yourself in a room/ not listening to her is escalating the conflict. What if you simply remained calm in her presence and listened to her without reacting. It seems that if she pursues you to talk to you that reacting is adding fuel to the fire.

 YES. THIS. It is golden.

Being unflapped while she's attacking you (whether at the full yelling level, or a notch or two below that) is horribly invalidating to her. You are invalidating her by staying there and acting like she's not shouting at you.

Really consider the options and consequences when she's being verbally abusive to you.

A: Listen, agree, apologize. (You're done with this one, thank god!) I don't mean you won't apologize if you actually do something wrong. I mean you won't apologize for not reading her mind, etc.

B: Stay in her presence, (even through a locked door), and don't react -- As I said, invalidating. Don't do this.

C: Remove yourself. Any way you can.

Yes, it leaves the kids with her. Yes, she will continue to paint you black to the kids. And trust me, they notice and understand more than you think. If you start showing assertive behavior in the face of abuse, they will notice how that works, and (we can hope!) pick up that kind of behavior themselves when they later in life find themselves in that situation, whether it is from mom, mom's FOO, a boss, a coworker, a friend, or a relationship.

[patientandclear]

I always try to keep in mind that while BPDh has "something going on"(BPD or something), that we also just have normal male/female issues. Men and women relate so much differently. My Mom always reminds me that it's widely known that a lot of women complain of their husband's not communicating. It's just hard for me to relate, because my Dad is a huge talker.

I suggested listening to her because it seems like what you are doing is creating more drama? I know sometimes I do things, thinking it will make things better(like walking away), but then BPDh will say something like "you obviously don't even want to be around me". Nothing could be further from the truth, I'm just trying to give him "calm down" time, and I'd much prefer if he could calmly talk about why he's angry, but he never wants to "talk". My point is that my "walking away" or taking a break by going to the store, seems to sometimes feel like abandonment, or "me not wanting to be around him".

Maybe in your effort to get away from the verbal abuse, it's actually triggering her worse than if you listened? Just a thought.

Walking away during abuse is a boundary to protect oneself. It surely does trigger the pwBPD. Boundaries are not supposed to be surrendered just because enforcing them triggers the other person.

That said, expressing that you WILL listen when there is no abuse can send a message that it is not about unwillingness to hear, it is about the abusive packaging. It sounds like FF got a chance to listen when his W was not abusive (see his "maybe it worked" thread) -- a good example of how it was not necessary to endure abuse in order to also listen.