Perhaps listening and validating worked this morning

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

So, she stops by the house.  I'm on a long telephone hold (chasing tax information, tons of fun).  Normally I would resist her efforts to talk with distractions like that, but she seemed interested.

I totally agree with you that my wife doesn't feel heard, so, I went for it.

I have some exams scheduled with the VA soon and she believes (has said this) that my purpose is to get myself declared OK and then take kids from her.

So, today, she sits next to me and starts asking me questions about when I will leave.  I gave her my proposed schedule.  She then asked, "so do you have anything you can show me a letter or email" to prove what the purpose is.  I said I did not, that the request came by phone.  She didn't believe it.

Said "normally" I get letters about that stuff.

I validated that the VA is confusing and a huge bureaucracy,

I asked her directly if she was concerned about it, "You sound concerned, I would like to listen, "  I was very conscious to not roll eyes or sigh, tried to be genuine.  Even though inside I was pretty put out.

Well, then when I start talking she jumps up and is straightening out the room.  Normally I would pause, because in my world, you sit and look at each other and have a convo.  I tried to hang with her world.

She then got to her real concern.  She says that "all my actions" are showing her a guy that is only thinking of himself and is preparing to divorce.  There is no other explanation.

I validated and tried to empathize the concern she must feel (again trying to be neutral and caring)

I wont' try to do it all word for word, but she challenged with several "facts".  Such as I had told her the claim was "done" and I was done seeing all the doctors.  (In reality it was "done" and ready to submit).

So I stuck with validation and SE (of SE) that it was confusing and frustrating system.  Stuck with that for a bit before I tried to introduce the T, that I was talking about "submitting".  Once submitted then there is an evaluation team that goes through it.

Amazingly she kept calm.  She did bounce around the room while I was talking, I figured it I mentioned it, it would be taken as criticism. 

Then, I took a bit of a leap.  I said I could sense she had some strong feelings around these things (was way to scared to try and identify it).  I said I also had some very strong feelings about the entire process.  I purposefully stayed vague.  She came back and asked me what I was talking about.  I said, you know, the VA, all these exams and forms.  It's exhausting for me, I imagine it must be troubling for you as well.

There is silence for a while, I figured I would let her lead this.  She then said (again in nice way) that she didn't think I "got her".  I validated and in a way agreed.  In an attempt to insert some "T" into this.  I said "I'm trying" and left it at that.

I could tell she was fidgeting more.  Figured it was time to exit.  Asked her some nuts and bolts (timing) about a school event later today. 

She left

I got the text below


FF wife: (ff name) when I asked u to switch our insurance to our new region so (d19) has no problems when she scheduled surgery you said u took care of that, Now u tell me that u only gave this address as a temporary address, 9:36 AM

Me: the va and tricare are totally different systems, not linked at all. 9:40 AM

Me: both systems are very confusing and frustrating to deal with, they operate very differently. 9:40 AM

Me: then, really tricare is more about ":)EERS". That is what I updated. ":)efense Eligibility and Enrollment System" I pulled that name from memory, but it should be pretty close 9:41 AM

Me: and that system is tied into the ID cards. It's all a very tangled web, somehow it works

end of texts.

I think I should have talked about confusing first, I kinda went with T first

Anyway, my impression is that at least I didn't damage myself anymore today, and perhaps she felt heard.

Thoughts?

FF

[formflier]

So, she stops by the house.  I'm on a long telephone hold (chasing tax information, tons of fun).  Normally I would resist her efforts to talk with distractions like that, but she seemed interested.

I totally agree with you that my wife doesn't feel heard, so, I went for it.

I have some exams scheduled with the VA soon and she believes (has said this) that my purpose is to get myself declared OK and then take kids from her.

So, today, she sits next to me and starts asking me questions about when I will leave.  I gave her my proposed schedule.  She then asked, "so do you have anything you can show me a letter or email" to prove what the purpose is.  I said I did not, that the request came by phone.  She didn't believe it.

Said "normally" I get letters about that stuff.

I validated that the VA is confusing and a huge bureaucracy,

I asked her directly if she was concerned about it, "You sound concerned, I would like to listen, "  I was very conscious to not roll eyes or sigh, tried to be genuine.  Even though inside I was pretty put out.

Well, then when I start talking she jumps up and is straightening out the room.  Normally I would pause, because in my world, you sit and look at each other and have a convo.  I tried to hang with her world.

She then got to her real concern.  She says that "all my actions" are showing her a guy that is only thinking of himself and is preparing to divorce.  There is no other explanation.

I validated and tried to empathize the concern she must feel (again trying to be neutral and caring)

I wont' try to do it all word for word, but she challenged with several "facts".  Such as I had told her the claim was "done" and I was done seeing all the doctors.  (In reality it was "done" and ready to submit).

So I stuck with validation and SE (of SE) that it was confusing and frustrating system.  Stuck with that for a bit before I tried to introduce the T, that I was talking about "submitting".  Once submitted then there is an evaluation team that goes through it.

Amazingly she kept calm.  She did bounce around the room while I was talking, I figured it I mentioned it, it would be taken as criticism. 

Then, I took a bit of a leap.  I said I could sense she had some strong feelings around these things (was way to scared to try and identify it).  I said I also had some very strong feelings about the entire process.  I purposefully stayed vague.  She came back and asked me what I was talking about.  I said, you know, the VA, all these exams and forms.  It's exhausting for me, I imagine it must be troubling for you as well.

There is silence for a while, I figured I would let her lead this.  She then said (again in nice way) that she didn't think I "got her".  I validated and in a way agreed.  In an attempt to insert some "T" into this.  I said "I'm trying" and left it at that.

I could tell she was fidgeting more.  Figured it was time to exit.  Asked her some nuts and bolts (timing) about a school event later today. 

She left

I got the text below


FF wife: (ff name) when I asked u to switch our insurance to our new region so (d19) has no problems when she scheduled surgery you said u took care of that, Now u tell me that u only gave this address as a temporary address, 9:36 AM

Me: the va and tricare are totally different systems, not linked at all. 9:40 AM

Me: both systems are very confusing and frustrating to deal with, they operate very differently. 9:40 AM

Me: then, really tricare is more about ":)EERS". That is what I updated. ":)efense Eligibility and Enrollment System" I pulled that name from memory, but it should be pretty close 9:41 AM

Me: and that system is tied into the ID cards. It's all a very tangled web, somehow it works

end of texts.

I think I should have talked about confusing first, I kinda went with T first

Anyway, my impression is that at least I didn't damage myself anymore today, and perhaps she felt heard.

Thoughts?

FF

[Notwendy]

Better.

Yes eye rolling and sighing is invalidating.

Her walking around and doing things is a way to manage her emotions when talking to you. This means nothing more. Do not take it personally or as a sign of disrespect. She needs to do what she needs to do to hold on to herself.

Talking to you is distressing if she fears/feels you don't get her. ( I am uncertain if you get her either- but it is important to her that you do)


Her big message to you is this:  She fears you are trying to get yourself declared competent in order to leave and take the kids from her.




This would explain a number of behaviors- rallying the kids to her side ( so that they will say they want to be with Mommy) rallying her FOO to her side. Forwarding that e mail as "proof" of your intentions.

Some of this could also be projection. Honestly, probably everyone in a difficult r/s has thought about leaving and surely she may have thought of it too. But it is a giant leap between thinking about it once in a while and taking steps to do it, after considering the impact of that.  For someone who thinks a thought is a fact, this could be confusing.

As simple as it sounds, listening to her, "getting " her, could possibly go a long way towards repair here.

[sweetheart]

So in the spirit of good, better, best... .That was much better ff, so much better.

I could feel myself breathing a sigh of relief when I read it, when for the past few days I've been hunting for a bumping heads emoji when I've read your threads.

What was really good was that your w was able to move around as she engaged and processed the conversation. I could hear you resisting addressing this and that's such a positive on your part, because this allows her to be herself. Some people just need to move.

It is exceptionally rare for my h to be still when we are having a conversation. He paces, fidgets, moves between rooms and then returns. I feel that it is important for me to be still, to be the constant one, grounded if you like. I used to feel discombobulated by the movement but it's ok now. I accept that's just how he does things.

And what a big fear that your w is holding on to, that all of what is going on is in someway you orchestrating an exit plan for you and the children. No wonder she is all over the place, gathering the children to her.

So are you going to try some more of this listening, validation and SET stuff then ?

[Cat Familiar]

I wanted to expand upon Notwendy's comment about your wife straightening the room while talking.

Perhaps this is a female thing, but I've had some of the most wonderful intimate conversations with others when I was actively doing things, such as housecleaning and cooking. It's as if keeping my body focused upon accomplishing something leaves my mind free to think even more clearly.

That said, this strategy has backfired big time in talking with pwBPD. I had no idea how invalidating it is to some people.

For me, learning to sit quietly and give all my attention to someone in an emotionally charged conversation was anxiety inducing. I now understand that most people expect conversations to be conducted in that manner. However, working jointly with someone and accomplishing a task which requires little mental energy is also a wonderful way to have a difficult conversation, provided that both parties see the value in that.

[formflier]

 

I will keep trying,

It's one thing for her to stay in the room, it's another to move to other room where I can only hear mumbles. 

To be honest, I had a really hard time processing the convo while she was moving around.

What I am hearing from you guys is that the most important thing today was that she was able to express her big fear, and I didn't react.

Can anyone help me with some word tracks for the future?  Is there ever a time where I should just go up to her and talk about this (I'm guessing not, but, )

Sigh,

Interview later today, keep fingers crossed. 

FF

[sweetheart]

ff for the moment can you take her lead on this, just for a while, just until things calm down, let the conversation starters be led by her?

The thing with the moving, moving to other rooms, hearing just mumbles, it gets easier over time. What's is important is she knows you're still there listening. That you're not moving because you're actively engaged in hearing what she has to say.

I understand wanting to try and sort this by talking about it with her, but this will probably feel v controlling to her and if she is feeling paranoid, she may think that you are working to your own agenda and that way in my experience dysregulation lies.

Try and take it easy and focus your energies for today on your interview. Good luck.

[formflier]

 

I think I nailed the interview, now off to reading event at school,

FF

[Fian]

What I don't see you addressing is her big fear - that you plan to divorce her and take the kids.  Instead you evade the question.  So long as she has the fear, I can't see how your relationship will be stable.  This might be a difficult thing to discuss, maybe write what you are thinking in a letter?  This begs the question - do pwBPD understand things better when they are written (aka they can compare their memory to what is written down)?

Another advantage of a letter is that it allows you to finish what you want to say.  If you say it in person, she can interrupt in the middle and you never get a chance to complete your thought.

In an ideal world, the letter calms some of her fears, and shows what you are looking for the relationship to continue and progress.  She will be less likely to think you are hiding things if you admit that you did talk to a lawyer.  While she can point to what you have done, she may also think, "Well he did admit to the lawyer, maybe he is telling me the truth that he isn't listing our address as temporary." 

In a worst case scenario, she uses it as evidence that all of her fears are true.  What do you think would happen?

[formflier]

 

They are her fears.  I used to "address" them all the time.

She has to deal with it.

She is the one that says divorce, not me.  I used to chase that rabbit trail all the time.

Basically, I've stated to her that I have not interest in divorce and I don't repeat myself.

Trying to convince her of my "real" motives is frustrating, and doesn't work.

FF

[empath]

In my experience, telling a pwBPD that you have talked to lawyers or taken steps that could be construed as progress down the divorce trail is all the proof they need, regardless of what one says. When the abandonment fear gets triggered, it is really hard to put it back in the bottle.

[flourdust]

his might be a difficult thing to discuss, maybe write what you are thinking in a letter?  This begs the question - do pwBPD understand things better when they are written (aka they can compare their memory to what is written down)?

No. My wife has been exposed to plenty of recorded evidence. She's heard recordings of her dysregulating -- and doesn't hear anything wrong with her behavior. She's been shown texts and emails that contradict her claims ... .and she just shifts the topic to some other facet that proves she's being mistreated, or she downplays what's in the text and moves on to another grievance.

It's not like she has a poor memory that just needs to be jogged. She has an actively confabulating memory that is working overtime to maintain the narrative of victimization that drives her rage.

[Notwendy]

Basically, I've stated to her that I have not interest in divorce and I don't repeat myself.


Considering that emotions feel real in the moment, and that this affects memory, and your wife has stated her fears, she may need you to repeat yourself.

There are boundaries, and there are rigid rules, but not all rigid rules need to be so in all circumstances. I mention this because you are a military guy, and I respect that rigid adherence to rules can be necessary, especially in situations where people's lives depend on that. For many jobs it is an asset to be exact when it comes to rules.

But a relationship that has an emotional component may not be the place for some rigid rules. Certainly, it would be tiring to be constantly repeating something, but sometimes it may be the best thing to do in a situation.

I think too much and too little rigidity can be a problem.

Boundaries are different. There's a difference between being a thief, or infidelity, and being 10 minutes late for dinner or not repeating oneself. I also picked up on another thread where you cooked and so decided not to do the dishes. That's a big one for me, because the dishes were a hill my H was willing to dig his heels into no matter what. It really was not about them for me as much as the rigidity over it. But I was not willing to risk the relationship over household tasks like that, and so, I do them because the fighting over who does them isn't worth it to me. What I think is damaging is holding to rigid rules about these smaller things when sometimes, well, it may have an emotional impact to not hold on to them all the time. If I were to be out one evening, and came home to clean dishes, I would feel as if it was an act of kindness to me that would have a positive emotional  impact on me way greater than just cleaning the dishes.

If your wife is fearful and distressed, it could make an emotional difference to her, in the moment, to comfort her and say " I don't want to leave you honey". The payoff in emotions could be far greater than the payoff of this personal rule.

[formflier]

 

During times that I have told her I don't want a divorce, I am a firm believer that it "fed the fire".  

Perhaps it doesn't with everyone.

me:  "No honey, I don't want to leave you"

her:  "but you admitted to me that you don't have an email for the appointment"

ok, that exchange never took place, but based on zillions of other exchanges, I would be huge money that would have been the way it went.

I have directly said in the past few weeks that I want her, do not want a divorce, have not retained a divorce lawyer (I have retained two other lawyers, but that has been going on for a while, business stuff).

I'm not against saying that I want her or have no plans to divorce.  To sweeten up how I apply the "rule", is if she says "You can't wait to get divorce" I don't respond with "that's not true" and basically get in a yes it is no it isn't argument.

Dishes:  I wasn't trying to dig my heals in.  I was respecting our agreed on rule and workflow, avoiding a possible a$$chewing over doing her stuff, and waiting until I got a clear (relatively) communication from her that the "rule" had changed.

In fact, she said the rule is now that we clean as we cook.  Hopefully I didn't roll my eyes at her, but when I did the dishes from the night before, I cleaned all the stuff that she made eggs with about 45 minutes before that conversation.  

Rough estimate, I'm doing 80-90% of the housework right now.  She seems very protective of the bathroom she uses upstairs and the room she apparently has moved into, other than that, I care for the house.


FF

ps:  I realize I overstated my "rule" a bit about not repeating myself, hope my explanation makes sense.  The reason I have rigid "rules" and follow them is that when she gets going, there can be tons of ideas and questions floating around at once.  Especially when I try to have a conversation "by her rules".  If the dike starts leaking due to me "being flexible", I get "caught" quickly in supposed contradictions.

[Grey Kitty]

This divorce discussion/argument requires you to hit some subtle and difficult validation and avoid invalidation.

She is afraid you are looking to be declared competent, divorce, and take her kids away.

Her fear is real. You can validate her fear.

At least during dysregulated times, she BELIEVES this. If you tell her you that you don't want to divorce her, in her eyes, you are either A) lying, as that is what you would do if it was true, or B) invalidating her by telling her that she is WRONG in knowing what you are thinking/planning/doing.

I agree--don't engage on the divorce thing, and don't try to deny it. Nothing good comes of it.

But if you can get to the point where you are genuinely concerned about the fear she is feeling over it, and express that with her, yes, it can indeed help.

Good luck at it!

[formflier]

 

An amazing turn of events (I realize that nothing is "fixed). 

So, she warmed up to me last night.  We did the hot tub/sex thing.  Was a good night.  This morning I went for round 2 and after it was over, (sorry if TMI here), like when I was still out of breath she starts asking me questions about different "business issues". 

Normally I would deflect until a better time, but remembering success of trying to meet her where she is at, I went ahead, caught my breath and answered her questions for a good 20-30 minutes.  Amazingly is stayed respectful the entire time.

There is a pause for a while and then I about had a heart attack when she asked "So, what happened on Friday that made your day such a bad day?"  And like, there was actual concern vice derision in her voice.

So, I told her about several events that ended up wasting tons of time and frustrating me.  Basically later on Friday afternoon it appeared she was trying to engage me in some sort of argument or something.  I said I had a bad day, a really bad day and was in no mood to talk. 

Mood seems a bit lighter around here today.  Kinda weird now to have my wife spend the night in bed with me (yes I kept my mouth shut about it, )

FF

[Notwendy]

Yay, listening to her has all kinds of benefits.